Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: nrshida on April 10, 2014, 04:01:08 AM
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Over the years I've read countless threads about HOing and even participated in a few. There's hardly been a single session I've flown when someone or other isn't typing 'nice HO' or 'you Hoing b**tard' etc. None of these threads and not one of these complaints has ever put and end to HOing (note: we can't say it doesn't reduce it because the cultural pressure is continuous).
In Aces High it's almost become synomomous with swearing, it's not acceptable but there's an awful lot of it going about. I've seen more bitter complaints and more discord amongst players over the HO than any other aspect of gameplay, so a weird thought occured to me: what if we as a community stopped complaining about the HO and accepted it instead.
Now bear with me here. I'm suggesting we include and embrace the HO as part of acceptable fighting. I mean a shot from and into any aspect. No discussion of both or only one party having a shot, no debate over angles of deflection, simply give your oppoenent a guns solution - any solution - and get shot.
So now the expectation changes, instead of expecting NOT to get HOed out of the anticipation of sporting behaviour we expect TO GET HOed every time. Those that have been objecting to HOing on the grounds it is unskillful now have the responsibility to learn how to avoid it and can't complain if they get brought down. Thus this hole in the skill set of those who want a good, fair or skillful fight becomes filled.
Those that HO presently do not gain anything nor lose anything save the end of negative comments (which they apparently don't care about anyway).
For those that dislike getting HOed the burden of responsibility shifts onto temselves instead of expected behaviour from another player which I think we can all agree is only a recipe for dissapointment, annoyance and discord. In AH culture the HO is the only circumstance in a 1 on 1 fight where your safety is not your own responsibility but that of your opponent. This is illogical and unrealistic in the context of this combative virtual environment.
Employing the same 'persuasion by negative comments' approach which is demonstrably not working over and over year in, year out is the definition of futility. How about a paradigm shift instead?
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Over the years I've read countless threads about HOing and even participated in a few. There's hardly been a single session I've flown when someone or other isn't typing 'nice HO' or 'you Hoing b**tard' etc. None of these threads and not one of these complaints has ever put and end to HOing (note: we can't say it doesn't reduce it because the cultural pressure is continuous).
In Aces High it's almost become synomomous with swearing, it's not acceptable but there's an awful lot of it going about. I've seen more bitter complaints and more discord amongst players over the HO than any other aspect of gameplay, so a weird thought occured to me: what if we as a community stopped complaining about the HO and accepted it instead.
Now bear with me here. I'm suggesting we include and embrace the HO as part of acceptable fighting. I mean a shot from and into any aspect. No discussion of both or only one party having a shot, no debate over angles of deflection, simply give your oppoenent a guns solution - any solution - and get shot.
So now the expectation changes, instead of expecting NOT to get HOed out of the anticipation of sporting behaviour we expect TO GET HOed every time. Those that have been objecting to HOing on the grounds it is unskillful now have the responsibility to learn how to avoid it and can't complain if they get brought down. Thus this hole in the skill set of those who want a good, fair or skillful fight becomes filled.
Those that HO presently do not gain anything nor lose anything save the end of negative comments (which they apparently don't care about anyway).
For those that dislike getting HOed the burden of responsibility shifts onto temselves instead of expected behaviour from another player which I think we can all agree is only a recipe for dissapointment, annoyance and discord. In AH culture the HO is the only circumstance in a 1 on 1 fight where your safety is not your own responsibility but that of your opponent. This is illogical and unrealistic in the context of this combative virtual environment.
Employing the same 'persuasion by negative comments' approach which is demonstrably not working over and over year in, year out is the definition of futility. How about a paradigm shift instead?
Head on attack is a historically accurate method that was considered brave or foolish since you had a high chance of getting killed simultaneously with your enemy. In game youre not scared of death so a HO is much easyer as a choice. I find HOs irritating only when players use it in situations where they could easily perform safer manouvers instead. For example if a player chooses to always turn to head-on when flying in a much more manouverable plane, instead of manouvering for a side shot.
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As MrRiplEy said, HO are historically accurate. I've found that some people give me grief for using it, or even for accepting a HO they initiated...but just when they go down first :lol . Don't want a HO? Push your nose down, give it some rudder and turn sideways as soon as you're in 1K range. :joystick:
And please, please don't call me dirty names for accepting the HO you initiated. Specially if I'm flying a 190A8 and you're in a P40...you hear me, RotBaron? :cheers:
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Last night I had a HO with a spit. The spit was coming down at a shallow angle and I was going up with a shallow angle in a 47 at the top of a climb out and speed low. I got in the situation because of failed SA. I made a mistake.
Now, if I break away I give the spit my six or worse. Bad idea. He was obviously lining up for the shot so I did the same and won the HO. He could have avoided the HO and easily got on my six but he went for the kill. Now am I bad guy or the spit guy?
I agree with the OP. HO is not a dirty word but something I have to do if I get caught slow or stupid and the other plane sets up a HO. Some of the higher performance planes in this situation would have had more options but a big heavy plane has few when speed is slow.
HO happens. The winner is often labeled a Ho'er the looser a victim.
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So now the expectation changes, instead of expecting NOT to get HOed out of the anticipation of sporting behaviour we expect TO GET HOed every time.
Wise idea, at least when flying in the MAs. Also a most excellent way to get a quick initial read of your opponent's skill level.
- oldman
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Over the years I've read countless threads about HOing and even participated in a few. There's hardly been a single session I've flown when someone or other isn't typing 'nice HO' or 'you Hoing b**tard' etc. None of these threads and not one of these complaints has ever put and end to HOing (note: we can't say it doesn't reduce it because the cultural pressure is continuous).
In Aces High it's almost become synomomous with swearing, it's not acceptable but there's an awful lot of it going about. I've seen more bitter complaints and more discord amongst players over the HO than any other aspect of gameplay, so a weird thought occured to me: what if we as a community stopped complaining about the HO and accepted it instead.
Now bear with me here. I'm suggesting we include and embrace the HO as part of acceptable fighting. I mean a shot from and into any aspect. No discussion of both or only one party having a shot, no debate over angles of deflection, simply give your oppoenent a guns solution - any solution - and get shot.
So now the expectation changes, instead of expecting NOT to get HOed out of the anticipation of sporting behaviour we expect TO GET HOed every time. Those that have been objecting to HOing on the grounds it is unskillful now have the responsibility to learn how to avoid it and can't complain if they get brought down. Thus this hole in the skill set of those who want a good, fair or skillful fight becomes filled.
Those that HO presently do not gain anything nor lose anything save the end of negative comments (which they apparently don't care about anyway).
For those that dislike getting HOed the burden of responsibility shifts onto temselves instead of expected behaviour from another player which I think we can all agree is only a recipe for dissapointment, annoyance and discord. In AH culture the HO is the only circumstance in a 1 on 1 fight where your safety is not your own responsibility but that of your opponent. This is illogical and unrealistic in the context of this combative virtual environment.
Employing the same 'persuasion by negative comments' approach which is demonstrably not working over and over year in, year out is the definition of futility. How about a paradigm shift instead?
Seems you've shifted to my perspective. :D
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Wise idea, at least when flying in the MAs. Also a most excellent way to get a quick initial read of your opponent's skill level.
And his intentions. Good insight Oldman.
Seems you've shifted to my perspective. :D
I don't know what your perspective is and I'm wary of being trolled so this might be a short conversation but I will say my personal values haven't changed at all. This is a bit of a subtle shift I'm suggesting in general opinion and behaviour. I still won't HO myself because I know my odds are much much better if I employ my ACM. I do note it took me considerable investment to reach that point however.
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No argument here. But I feel strongly we send the wrong messages to new and old players about HOing. As a community we tend to focus on communicating that HOing is "dishonorable". I don't think that's an effective education approach and it actually exacerbates the problem of name calling, negative chatter on 200, while doing nothing to decrease the number of HO attempts by new and old players.
Player education and training needs to be grounded in the hard reality of MA fighting rather than the sanitary conditions of the 1v1 DA duelist. The new guy needs to learn (sometimes the hard way) why the HO shot isn't the smartest to take and, most importantly, how to avoid these shots rather than simply assuming some obscure "point of honor" will keep the other guy from pulling the trigger.
Nose off a few degrees, add a bit of vet, viola...HO missed and fight reset. Eventually the new guy will also learn how to do more than just reset the fight but take advantage through timing and good shooting.
I'm not complaining. HOs happen. My point is: Teach new guys that they WILL receive HO attempts, why the person doing so is a fool, how to avoid the attack, and (to your point) capitalize on the other guys foolishness. Stop focusing on its "bad gameplay" or "if you do this you are a dishonerable jerk" crap....because many DO NOT CARE. It's a School of Hard Knocks approach, rather than touchy-feely-be-a-standup-guy BS.
Will it work with all? No...because you can't fix stupid. But I'm betting it will work on more than a few because many DO focus on surviving and score...and HOs generally are not good for that.
Pointed the same out several weeks ago, Shida. Don't expect to get much buy in buy I agree with you 100% and it's the way I've flown for years.
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Well just go ahead and keep using the HO as a way to avoid ACM and just get owned by me when I see it coming, dodge it, and pull a nice loop snap shot on you. Works every time. Cmon HO me all you want, I need more kills!
And BTW, I always expect to get HOed, so I set up an angle for a maneuver while they are desperately trying to hit me. They miss every time and I end up on there 6 quicker than lightening.
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Agreed. Every merge I get in the MA I'm expecting them to shoot. I've been learning to press the advantage it gives me lately and have been having quite a bit of success with it. Can't believe I didn't figure it out sooner.
I'm curious if they ever implement FPS play in this game, will the 'honorable' thing to do will be to stand out in the open, when you see the other guy wave at him or fire a warning shot in front of him to let him know you're there, then walk to cover and start fighting. Would be about the same thing as whining about the HO.
Wiley.
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And his intentions. Good insight Oldman.
I don't know what your perspective is and I'm wary of being trolled so this might be a short conversation but I will say my personal values haven't changed at all. This is a bit of a subtle shift I'm suggesting in general opinion and behaviour. I still won't HO myself because I know my odds are much much better if I employ my ACM. I do note it took me considerable investment to reach that point however.
I'm pretty sure our values were never as out of synch as you might have percieved. ;)
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As many knights know, and anyone who looks at my stats know, my main ride has become the 110G2. I fly it like a twin engined spit 5, lol. It's a great plane, more maneuverable than many think and has a superior gun package of 4 20mm cannons and two 30mm cannons with ammo loadouts of 1155 and 255 respectively. I am constantly amazed that more often than not people still come at me head on. This has led me to the very same opinion that my sensei has offered. If someone wants to h2h me in my 110G2, I let them, and give them a face full of 20s and 30s, which more often than not leads them to a big BOOM! I still work to get kills by using ACM's which works pretty well, as many folks don't expect a 100 to turnfight as well as they do. I quit complaining about HO's because it does no good, and just gets my mood into a poor condition, which is NOT why I play the game.
Folks, avoid the HO, it's easier than you think and makes for a more satisfying kill when you reverse them and kill them.
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As many knights know, and anyone who looks at my stats know, my main ride has become the 110G2. I fly it like a twin engined spit 5, lol. It's a great plane, more maneuverable than many think and has a superior gun package of 4 20mm cannons and two 30mm cannons with ammo loadouts of 1155 and 255 respectively. I am constantly amazed that more often than not people still come at me head on. This has led me to the very same opinion that my sensei has offered. If someone wants to h2h me in my 110G2, I let them, and give them a face full of 20s and 30s, which more often than not leads them to a big BOOM! I still work to get kills by using ACM's which works pretty well, as many folks don't expect a 100 to turnfight as well as they do. I quit complaining about HO's because it does no good, and just gets my mood into a poor condition, which is NOT why I play the game.
Folks, avoid the HO, it's easier than you think and makes for a more satisfying kill when you reverse them and kill them.
It constantly amazed me how many wanted to HO me while flying a 110G. I think I surprised many when I would dodging or vector off rather than return fire. But every now and then the mood would strike me to just pull the trigger. I usually died but the other guy never made it home either....a painful "object lession". :)
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Shida is this a troll?
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Pointed the same out several weeks ago, Shida. Don't expect to get much buy in buy I agree with you 100% and it's the way I've flown for years.
Sorry mate I missed your posts there. :salute
Well just go ahead and keep using the HO as a way to avoid ACM and just get owned by me when I see it coming, dodge it, and pull a nice loop snap shot on you. Works every time. Cmon HO me all you want, I need more kills!
And BTW, I always expect to get HOed...
:aok
Folks, avoid the HO, it's easier than you think...
You have snatched the pebbles from my hand my friend.
Shida is this a troll?
No pimpy, this is a deep philosophical concept. Get your head out of a pie and think it through :old:
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Trouble with head-ons is that they screw up the smoothing code. The second biggest complaint is the whole "why-is-it-a-collision-on-my-FE-and-not-his" snivel. Network latency is a stone squeak.
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My Radical Idea About HOing is to avoid them, and turn them into a reversal :aok
Nothing like ending up 400 off the HO'ers 6 and :neener: Their HO is frequently followed by them :joystick:
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Sorry mate I missed your posts there. :salute
No worries! At least I know some others agree with my assessment and approach! :salute
Oh, and I should have said I stated something similar a few days ago, not a few weeks ago.
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My Radical Idea About HOing is to avoid them, . . .
But some times you just can't. If I can't get separation because the guy has the E and plane advantage while diving in on me I will give him all eight 50s. Damn stupid if I don't. I could squeal that the other guy was the initiator of the HO but I don't know what lead him to that point. HOs happen.
Should you plan on a HO? Of course not. Should we all be all be working on skills to avoid HO? Yes.
I can't think of a single winner of a HO that has complained. It is only the loser.
Don't forget it takes two for a HO.
HO is like ack hugging, it is blown way up out of context and often with a flair of superiority. Nothing wrong with ack hugging either.
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But some times you just can't. If I can't get separation because the guy has the E and plane advantage while diving in on ....
HO is like ack hugging... Nothing wrong with ack hugging either.
Funny the guys with altitude, e and sometimes numbers give grief because at a disadvantage people hug the ack to gain some protection. People also run to ack cause the con is 800 out and there is no more room or skill to reverse him.... I guess we should just fly slow and straight and just let them shoot us down.. yeah that's the way to do it.
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So now the expectation changes, instead of expecting NOT to get HOed out of the anticipation of sporting behaviour we expect TO GET HOed every time.
Anyone who considers this a change in expectation has basically been playing in denial of the MA gameplay reality.
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You have snatched the pebbles from my hand my friend.
Student makes humble bow....while hiding evil grin :t
:salute nrshida! I wouldn't still be here if it weren't for your patience and tutelage!
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HOing is used much more often than say in a real life situation because your life isn't really on the line and for that reason its commonplace in virtual arena play sims where death just means having to re-roll. Not going to change unless there was a real down side to being shot down yourself. Same as suicide base and CV strafers, level-dive-bombers, bailing bombers, ect.
Damn the torpedos. Why not?...if you sink just hit the "H" button and you get a new boat.
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But some times you just can't.
True. In some situations (e.g. on the deck, many-on-one furball) it may be impossible to dodge or reverse every HO.
Sadly, life isn't fair. AH MA combat reflects that sad fact.
If you want fair play, everyone must fly the same plane, at the same alt, at the same speed, and must fire only under certain conditions.
Sounds like a duel to me.
We have an arena for that too!
I can think of nothing more boring than 300 to 400 players squaring up in 1 on 1s, all flying the same plane, doing nothing but merges all the time. Every day. :uhoh
Part of the challenge and fun of the MA is the diversity and unpredictablilty of the combat environment. Will the next red guy show up higher than me? Will there be more than one? Or will they be below me? etc etc etc
Just sayin'! :) :salute
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I think it's hilarious how some people hate HO shots so much that they'll claim anything from in front of the 3-9 line is a HO shot. Take a crossing shot on someone, "Hey! Nice HO from my 9 o'clock you Hotard!" :rofl
Complaining about dying to a HO shot is the dumbest excuse I ever hear about. The HO shot is the EASIEST shot in ALL of aerial combat to avoid. You can literally maneuver in any direction and they will find it almost impossible to hit you (unless they have some god-like aim). The ONLY reason you die in a HO shot is simply because you decided to fly into his guns. Why? I do not know, but you really don't have anyone else to blame but yourself. If you don't want to get shot then DON'T fly into their guns! :aok
I also hear the excuses of "Oh, but what if I'm fighting multiple bad guys and I'm turning to avoid someone and another one comes in from the direction I turn into? You CAN'T avoid that HO!"
Yes.... Yes you can! I know this because I do it all the time! Keep your SA up!!! Be aware of where all the enemy planes are at all times! If you see this one plane diving on your 6 for a shot and you turn to avoid him but end up going head on with a second enemy then you have failed SA. Be aware that there is a second plane coming at you from the direction you want to turn to avoid the first attacker and set up to either avoid BOTH planes with ONE move, or if that's not possible plan to string TWO moves together into ONE and avoid the first attacker then immediately avoid the second.
You can not complain and make excuses about dying in a HO shot. It is incredibly easy to avoid and the only way to get shot in a head on pass is if you intentionally go head on and put yourself in their guns!
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I'm curious if they ever implement FPS play in this game, will the 'honorable' thing to do will be to stand out in the open, when you see the other guy wave at him or fire a warning shot in front of him to let him know you're there, then walk to cover and start fighting. Would be about the same thing as whining about the HO.
Wiley.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olm7xC-gBMY
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Excellent post Shida. This has been how I have viewed the HO for years now. Of course, at first I used to complain when I was ho'd, most of us did. But over time I learned the futility of such a complaint. I will now almost always just say 'nice shot' if I say anything at all. I have found two reactions most common to this method.
1: The enemy will say 'thank you'.
There are two subsections of players who will do this.
The first is someone who is new and does not know ho'ing is bad. These players deserve the right to HO with impunity. They will certainly not kill me any other way. The Ho is their best chance and I commend them on succeeding at it as I consider myself not an easy player to beat with a HO. New players deserve encouragement in any possible way. Over time they will most likely learn that taking the HO is a 50-50 chance and rather pointless. The key point there is 'over time'. If they are constantly castigated for how they kill there is much less chance that they will stick around long enough to learn.
The second group are those who know better but still choose to HO. These players are utterly beyond my help.
2: The enemy will say 'ah, that was a cheap shot, sorry'
This is more common.
The majority of players who say this would react very differently if I had complained about the HO. The majority of players would instantly argue back. It's a basic and obvious exercise in reverse psychology.
There are very few reactions that are not covered in those two.
And so, I support your fine post!
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Over the years I've read countless threads about HOing and even participated in a few. There's hardly been a single session I've flown when someone or other isn't typing 'nice HO' or 'you Hoing b**tard' etc. None of these threads and not one of these complaints has ever put and end to HOing (note: we can't say it doesn't reduce it because the cultural pressure is continuous).
In Aces High it's almost become synomomous with swearing, it's not acceptable but there's an awful lot of it going about. I've seen more bitter complaints and more discord amongst players over the HO than any other aspect of gameplay, so a weird thought occured to me: what if we as a community stopped complaining about the HO and accepted it instead.
Now bear with me here. I'm suggesting we include and embrace the HO as part of acceptable fighting. I mean a shot from and into any aspect. No discussion of both or only one party having a shot, no debate over angles of deflection, simply give your oppoenent a guns solution - any solution - and get shot.
So now the expectation changes, instead of expecting NOT to get HOed out of the anticipation of sporting behaviour we expect TO GET HOed every time. Those that have been objecting to HOing on the grounds it is unskillful now have the responsibility to learn how to avoid it and can't complain if they get brought down. Thus this hole in the skill set of those who want a good, fair or skillful fight becomes filled.
Those that HO presently do not gain anything nor lose anything save the end of negative comments (which they apparently don't care about anyway).
For those that dislike getting HOed the burden of responsibility shifts onto temselves instead of expected behaviour from another player which I think we can all agree is only a recipe for dissapointment, annoyance and discord. In AH culture the HO is the only circumstance in a 1 on 1 fight where your safety is not your own responsibility but that of your opponent. This is illogical and unrealistic in the context of this combative virtual environment.
Employing the same 'persuasion by negative comments' approach which is demonstrably not working over and over year in, year out is the definition of futility. How about a paradigm shift instead?
+1 :aok i'm with you 100%--- i try not to ho but i just might not turn if the opponent doesen't turn...yes so lets just all quit complaining about the ho
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Learn to luv the ho and you will learn to luv yourself.... :devil
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The only thing that needs to be said about HOing is... It takes 2 to HO.
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Im never happy to get Ho'd but i cant say ive never purposely Hod people before also, so it works both ways.
One day you just learn to accept it and say "you know id probably HO me too".
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You know what really pisses people off,
Going on a HO rampage in a 190a8... Thats some fun stuff right there
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Learn to luv the ho and you will learn to luv yourself.... :devil
Um...dead....what you do in the privacy of your own home is your business, dude.
:D
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JG5 has a inside joke, it goes a little something like this;
Why does a Gldnbb cry "HO"?
Because Dolby shot him in the back.
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JG5 has a inside joke, it goes a little something like this;
Why does a Gldnbb cry "HO"?
Because Dolby shot him in the back.
Free GlubNub! :D
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JG5 has a inside joke, it goes a little something like this;
Why does a Gldnbb cry "HO"?
Because Dolby shot him in the back.
lmfao
Seriously, been flying for a week.
Not a single good fight, all just wants to ho and run to ack. Damn it, i wasnt flying a spit... so well, keep hoing, bastages. The level of the player base is just amazingly low.
flame suit on, hotards.
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what you do in the privacy of your own home is your business, dude.
(http://i.imgur.com/4sFM9jk.gif?1)
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For ten plus years that I've been in the game, people have been complaining about the HO. To me it always seemed pointless because it was a tactic that was used in real air to air combat, and in WWII in the Pacific, was even recommended at times against the Japanese because our aircraft were more heavily armored and had (usually) heavier firepower.
IIRC, the complaining in AH is a holdover from Air Warrior days. In AW, the HO was set up so that (not exactly sure of the details) it was not effective - either no effect, or very little, etc. People got used to not HOing because it was ineffective. After some time of it being ineffective, when AW faded out and AH came along people who had become complacent about defending against the HO were upset because now in AH, bullets had the same effectiveness whether they came from the front or the back! So, they started complaining about HOers. As new people came into AH that had never flown in AW, they found the vets complaining about HOing as though it was wrong, or somehow uncool to do. Not knowing any better, they decided that they too wanted to be cool like the old timers, so they adopted the same look down your nose attitude at anyone who DARED take a shot from the front, and the cycle has continued to this day.
Again - it was a real tactic, and was actually used in WWII - so why complain about it being used here? I always chuckle when I see somebody type "Nice HO" or something similar in the textbox. What they are actually announcing to the whole arena is "Look everybody - I was such a dumb prettythang that I flew directly into an enemy aircraft's guns and didn't even think to move my stick or rudders to avoid it!"
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lmfao
Seriously, been flying for a week.
Not a single good fight, all just wants to ho and run to ack. Damn it, i wasnt flying a spit... so well, keep hoing, bastages. The level of the player base is just amazingly low.
flame suit on, hotards.
My YAK9T would own you :)
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My YAK9T would own you :)
really, who cares.
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As MrRiplEy said, HO are historically accurate. I've found that some people give me grief for using it, or even for accepting a HO they initiated...but just when they go down first :lol . Don't want a HO? Push your nose down, give it some rudder and turn sideways as soon as you're in 1K range. :joystick:
And please, please don't call me dirty names for accepting the HO you initiated. Specially if I'm flying a 190A8 and you're in a P40...you hear me, RotBaron? :cheers:
WTH are you talking about??? Where/When did that happen? Going back an ENTIRE YEAR I have a small handful deaths in a P-40??? NONE to you in any way. Matter of fact I don't think I have any encounters with you in anything except killing your bombers recently. :headscratch:
What gives man?
Edit: I checked my entire stats, did NOT find a single death to you in a P-40
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I can't think of a single winner of a HO that has complained. It is only the loser.
I've been known to do just that. Sometimes, after avoinding 2 or 3 HOs from a superior plane in a superior E state, I'll announce on 200 that my guns are now hot. Since they've done the predictable and stupid thing 2-3 times in a row it becomes easy to light them up. Then I'll complain on 200 after they're dead that the ruined a potentially good fight by being stupid. I consider it a teaching moment.
I expect every single player to HO every single time. Sometimes HOs are unavoidable (4 guys on my six and #5 comes in for the HO). When you do lame crap you will and should be called out for your dweebery. Just because "it happened in the war" doesn't make it acceptable in the MA IMO. Save the war stuff for scenerios, FSO, ect where your one life means something.
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I can't think of a single winner of a HO that has complained. It is only the loser.
Don't forget it takes two for a HO.
I complain, even when I win; .p #NAME# learn not to head on and you wont end up in the tower so fast.
It only takes 1 determined HOer to HO.
:old:
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I expect every single player to HO every single time. Sometimes HOs are unavoidable (4 guys on my six and #5 comes in for the HO).
It is especially funny when #5 is a Brewster/KI43 and you are in a 4 cannons bird. The way I see it, it is the responsibility of the smaller under-gunned plane to move out of the way. You should sometimes listen to our squad channel (player in 190A8) "dont HO me!... dont HO me!... idiot!". :D
No one has a right to complain about a HO. A HO can always be avoided by turning around.
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Um...dead....what you do in the privacy of your own home is your business, dude.
:D
And a interesting house wife I shall be :neener:
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No one has a right to complain about a HO. A HO can always be avoided by turning around.
I do not agree with that.
You can try to avoid, the opponent can still spray and get some lucky hits. While technically it isnt a head on, its just as low.
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Good post, Nish.
I find complaining about head-on passes to be nothing more than an excuse for "I'm not skilled enough to both avoid you and set up my plane for post-merge maneuvering."
What I find funny is how people think that there's maneuvers and pilot skills available that can make you nigh impossible to hit when your opponent is behind you (when you have the least maneuvering options available), yet they cry "HO" when shot during the merge, the point of the fight that they have the most options and direct control over. Logically, this is a complete contradiction.
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:aok
You have snatched the pebbles from my hand :old:
Damned pebble theft. It's getting to be an epidemic :old:
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HOing is no big deal. It won't change so fretting over it is unproductive. It would be better if it was less common so it doesn't bother me when folks are called out on it. Planes are free and life is cheap in AH so its pretty easy to recover from. What we can't get back are the thousands of good fights that never happened because it was over at the merge.
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It was a long time ago that I started accepting the ho as a part of the game, I just try to work harder to avoid those situations myself. Now and then when really committed to a really good 1v1 I get ho shots because I "guessed" or "hoped" that this one pilot was not one of the hoing ones, sometimes I am right, sometimes I am wrong. And that's my own fault for putting myself into that position.
Just up another sortie and put the experience in the back of the head for the next one. :noid
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It was a long time ago that I started accepting the ho as a part of the game, I just try to work harder to avoid those situations myself. Now and then when really committed to a really good 1v1 I get ho shots because I "guessed" or "hoped" that this one pilot was not one of the hoing ones, sometimes I am right, sometimes I am wrong. And that's my own fault for putting myself into that position.
Just up another sortie and put the experience in the back of the head for the next one. :noid
This... this right here is what makes me bonkers. You are saying you let him get guns on you, and hoped he wouldn't pull the trigger.
How does that make any sense whatsoever?
Wiley.
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This... this right here is what makes me bonkers. You are saying you let him get guns on you, and hoped he wouldn't pull the trigger.
How does that make any sense whatsoever?
Wiley.
lol. Yep.
In a perfect merge, you want an almost straight head-on pass. Naturally, any good pilot should initially set up for this. If the other guy maneuvers off to the side, or otherwise doesn't bring his nose in my direction, I'm in no danger of being shot by him. Guess what?
I am going to pull the trigger.
And why wouldn't I? You're not morally superior to me if you presented a head-on guns-solution to me and did nothing about it, you're just dead.
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I'm with Essay .... It is an unwritten rule so to speak, hmmm not even that...it is just a mentality....Hoin was/has been around since day dot but not as prevalent as it is today.
it used to be you could get in anything from a 1v1 - a 3/4 V1 and the area of 10-2 was not a shooting zone....you could have and some did but generally not...it is now just the opposite.
There is no explaining it...if it is not understood then you will never get it....
But when you find that player/s who are of the same mind set, it is magic
I have found myself more and more being dragged down to the Ho out of pure frustration.....
This is a community thing though....I was shown a different way...that's right...I had help from the community...I was not berated and castrated as is the norm today...yes I got a little stick about it but more was positive and offering...But in the same breath I was open to learning
now to get right out of context....as I'm sure there will be many here that blah blah un written rule...you wrote that what a cop out......
shooting a pilot on the ground/in a chute (in real life) was done, yes...but not the norm and not even really accepted as right.
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lol. Yep.
In a perfect merge, you want an almost straight head-on pass. Naturally, any good pilot should initially set up for this. If the other guy maneuvers off to the side, or otherwise doesn't bring his nose in my direction, I'm in no danger of being shot by him. Guess what?
I am going to pull the trigger.
And why wouldn't I? You're not morally superior to me if you presented a head-on guns-solution to me and did nothing about it, you're just dead.
I suppose this is the difference between guys who play this as a test of skill and guys who play this to kill other fella's.
If you blast the other guy in the face on the merge, and he dies, you have only got to kill 1 more or get a proxy before the name in lights and the wtg's.
I have started playing like Shida is suggesting, and consider everyone is a HOer. By the same token you should consider that every single player, will attempt to wait until you are engaged, and then pick you off.
Unless you are in the same area as the Nippon guys, then they will all ho, pick, run and fly in exactly the way you or me would fly in RL, ,as in, whatever disgraceful, low down, dastardly way you could to kill the other guy and survive, to maybe, if you were lucky, not have to pay to lose your virginity :old:
My point being, I have tried to spend my time flying carefully and not diving in, but I have limited time to play and it simply bores me to tears. :old:
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I suppose this is the difference between guys who play this as a test of skill and guys who play this to kill other fella's.
Um... I fly to not get shot. If the other guy gets guns on me, regardless of the orientation of my plane, I failed to do my job. Explain in detail how that is 'less skill'?
Wiley.
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Um... I fly to not get shot. If the other guy gets guns on me, regardless of the orientation of my plane, I failed to do my job. Explain in detail how that is 'less skill'?
Wiley.
Well that depends on whether he failed to get guns on you because you were 20k above him, or whether he failed because you were on his 6 at 10 ft :old:
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Um... I fly to not get shot. If the other guy gets guns on me, regardless of the orientation of my plane, I failed to do my job. Explain in detail how that is 'less skill'?
Wiley.
There's a certain breed of pilot that thinks it's more honorable to "give the other guy a fair chance" than it is to kill their opponent as quickly and efficiently as possible. This same pilot also confuses efficiency in other pilots for a lack of skill. Never does it cross their mind that they could have prepared for the fight, as you had, before it began.
"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."
-- Sun Tzu
This is a fairly good analogy to those that think everyone who takes head-on passes can't fly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwDmV1KWrKQ
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Well that depends on whether he failed to get guns on you because you were 20k above him, or whether he failed because you were on his 6 at 10 ft :old:
I never said I was bouncing him. The two of us are close enough to each other to start shooting. How is it not my responsibility to stay away from the sharp end of his plane?
Wiley.
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I never said I was bouncing him. The two of us are close enough to each other to start shooting. How is it not my responsibility to stay away from the sharp end of his plane?
Wiley.
Well, it is :headscratch:
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The only thing that needs to be said about HOing is... It takes 2 to HO.
this is incorrect :aok
Dolby already explained it.
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This... this right here is what makes me bonkers. You are saying you let him get guns on you, and hoped he wouldn't pull the trigger.
How does that make any sense whatsoever?
Wiley.
There was a time, once upon long forgotten history that pure whiteknuckle fights were had in this game, with "nobody" shooting head on shots. As this was a contest of who would manage to get to the other guys 6 first, and these fights could drag out into many long minutes of hard fighting. So when a fight finally ended you were totally worn out both mentally and physically by hard consentration, fast thinking and a crushing grip around that stick for a longer period of time. And the adrenaline flow afterwards a fight like this can not compare to the kick one gets from just pulling the trigger and blowing up a plane head on first merge.. I find absolutely no fun in that at all, I spend my money on this game because I want to get better at the fighting part, the kill itself I don't really care much about. But offcourse there has to be a kill in there somewhere, but I like the fight to last for atleast a little while before the fun part is over. :rock
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There was a time, once upon long forgotten history that pure whiteknuckle fights were had in this game, with "nobody" shooting head on shots. As this was a contest of who would manage to get to the other guys 6 first, and these fights could drag out into many long minutes of hard fighting. So when a fight finally ended you were totally worn out both mentally and physically by hard consentration, fast thinking and a crushing grip around that stick for a longer period of time. And the adrenaline flow afterwards a fight like this can not compare to the kick one gets from just pulling the trigger and blowing up a plane head on first merge.. I find absolutely no fun in that at all, I spend my money on this game because I want to get better at the fighting part, the kill itself I don't really care much about. But offcourse there has to be a kill in there somewhere, but I like the fight to last for atleast a little while before the fun part is over. :rock
^ Oh Yes :old:
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Well, it is :headscratch:
Well, according to people in this thread as long as my nose is pointing vaguely in his general direction when he gets guns onto me, he's less skilled and a Bad Person(tm) for shooting me as I fly through his gun sight. My simple question is, how is it not my failure to avoid him?
There was a time, once upon long forgotten history that pure whiteknuckle fights were had in this game, with "nobody" shooting head on shots. As this was a contest of who would manage to get to the other guys 6 first, and these fights could drag out into many long minutes of hard fighting. So when a fight finally ended you were totally worn out both mentally and physically by hard consentration, fast thinking and a crushing grip around that stick for a longer period of time. And the adrenaline flow afterwards a fight like this can not compare to the kick one gets from just pulling the trigger and blowing up a plane head on first merge.. I find absolutely no fun in that at all, I spend my money on this game because I want to get better at the fighting part, the kill itself I don't really care much about. But offcourse there has to be a kill in there somewhere, but I like the fight to last for atleast a little while before the fun part is over. :rock
...and all of that depends on you being allowed to fly through his gunsight at the beginning?
Wiley.
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...and all of that depends on you being allowed to fly through his gunsight at the beginning?
Wiley.
Not sure that I follow you now wiley?
There are ALOT of people in the MA, and you very seldom know who you are up against. But sometimes you can have a vague idea or you just think you know who you are up against, based on flying style or whatever. Some rare times I have caught myself in trying to go for a perfect merge just to find out that it was the wrong guy. This one pulled the trigger, ok my bad.
But once in a while you CAN still find that pilot that has the same mindset and you can get one helluva fight out of it.
I don't see the problem with me gambling my cartoon life, because alot of the time I find it boring to just fly around never risking anything because I might get killed.
But there are days I fly with my mind set on survival also, but that is not my general rule in this game. My general rule in this game is FUN!
The day I can't have fun here anymore I will stop my payment and close my account.
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Not sure that I follow you now wiley?
There are ALOT of people in the MA, and you very seldom know who you are up against. But sometimes you can have a vague idea or you just think you know who you are up against, based on flying style or whatever. Some rare times I have caught myself in trying to go for a perfect merge just to find out that it was the wrong guy. This one pulled the trigger, ok my bad.
But once in a while you CAN still find that pilot that has the same mindset and you can get one helluva fight out of it.
I don't see the problem with me gambling my cartoon life, because alot of the time I find it boring to just fly around never risking anything because I might get killed.
But there are days I fly with my mind set on survival also, but that is not my general rule in this game. My general rule in this game is FUN!
The day I can't have fun here anymore I will stop my payment and close my account.
It seems to me to be what people are saying is, if their enemy doesn't do a guns-cold merge, it's impossible to have a good fight. What I'm saying is, it's your responsibility not to get shot by the bandit. EDIT: Sorry, just figured out a clearer way to phrase it: Why on earth do you not set up on the merge to avoid the HO, so you don't NEED to worry about whether he's going to shoot or not, because it doesn't matter if he tries.
Regardless of what direction your nose happens to be pointing, if the guy puts his guns on you, he's won the fight.
Wiley.
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Over the years I've read countless threads about HOing and even participated in a few. There's hardly been a single session I've flown when someone or other isn't typing 'nice HO' or 'you Hoing b**tard' etc. None of these threads and not one of these complaints has ever put and end to HOing (note: we can't say it doesn't reduce it because the cultural pressure is continuous).
In Aces High it's almost become synomomous with swearing, it's not acceptable but there's an awful lot of it going about. I've seen more bitter complaints and more discord amongst players over the HO than any other aspect of gameplay, so a weird thought occured to me: what if we as a community stopped complaining about the HO and accepted it instead.
Now bear with me here. I'm suggesting we include and embrace the HO as part of acceptable fighting. I mean a shot from and into any aspect. No discussion of both or only one party having a shot, no debate over angles of deflection, simply give your oppoenent a guns solution - any solution - and get shot.
So now the expectation changes, instead of expecting NOT to get HOed out of the anticipation of sporting behaviour we expect TO GET HOed every time. Those that have been objecting to HOing on the grounds it is unskillful now have the responsibility to learn how to avoid it and can't complain if they get brought down. Thus this hole in the skill set of those who want a good, fair or skillful fight becomes filled.
Those that HO presently do not gain anything nor lose anything save the end of negative comments (which they apparently don't care about anyway).
For those that dislike getting HOed the burden of responsibility shifts onto temselves instead of expected behaviour from another player which I think we can all agree is only a recipe for dissapointment, annoyance and discord. In AH culture the HO is the only circumstance in a 1 on 1 fight where your safety is not your own responsibility but that of your opponent. This is illogical and unrealistic in the context of this combative virtual environment.
Employing the same 'persuasion by negative comments' approach which is demonstrably not working over and over year in, year out is the definition of futility. How about a paradigm shift instead?
I'll support this idea :aok
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It seems to me to be what people are saying is, if their enemy doesn't do a guns-cold merge, it's impossible to have a good fight. What I'm saying is, it's your responsibility not to get shot by the bandit. If you set up on the merge to avoid the HO, you don't NEED to worry about whether he's going to shoot or not, because it doesn't matter if he tries.
Regardless of what direction your nose happens to be pointing, if the guy puts his guns on you, he's won the fight.
Wiley.
Yes, now I follow. And I do agree, it is my responsibility to stay alive and avoid the ho shots. And most of the time nowadays I fly like that, it has become like that over the years as hoing has become more and more usual. Hoing is a part of the game, so I have to make sure I don't get killed by every plane turning my way. I just miss those days when a fight could be had on equal terms and cold guns on the merge, and once in a while I still find pilots that fly like myself. Then I can gladly up sortie after sortie figthing the same guy even if I am in MA and he kills me time after time. If the fights are on equal terms and there are no ho's I don't care about my score or cartoon life, all I care about is the fun in the fights. :joystick: :rock
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Yes, now I follow. And I do agree, it is my responsibility to stay alive and avoid the ho shots. And most of the time nowadays I fly like that, it has become like that over the years as hoing has become more and more usual. Hoing is a part of the game, so I have to make sure I don't get killed by every plane turning my way. I just miss those days when a fight could be had on equal terms and cold guns on the merge, and once in a while I still find pilots that fly like myself. Then I can gladly up sortie after sortie figthing the same guy even if I am in MA and he kills me time after time. If the fights are on equal terms and there are no ho's I don't care about my score or cartoon life, all I care about is the fun in the fights. :joystick: :rock
I just don't see what it takes away from the fight, assuming the other guy actually stays to fight, if you merge as though he's going to take a shot.
Wiley.
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I just don't see what it takes away from the fight, assuming the other guy actually stays to fight, if you merge as though he's going to take a shot.
On the merge itself it probably doesn't make a difference; you simply enter the fight from different positions. I think the underlying objection to HOs is that they terminate the fight much sooner than if both pilots strive to get the kill with a more difficult shot. It's an attitude thing, contrasted between those who view this as a sport and those who view it as a sim. Neither side has any particular claim to moral superiority, as Skyyr might put it, but we sporter-types would just prefer longer and more difficult fights.
- oldman
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It ruins the merge sort of, if you have to make precautions to avoid ho shots. It might be that slight disadvantage that will make you blow your E to stay in the safe zone or puts you off your ideal flightpath rather than just be full on aggressive through the merge knowing it is safe and the fight starts when the planes 3/9 line cross.
There is often a contest of who gets lowest, the lowest plane starting his climb first on the merge usually has an slight advantage. And that can often be a chicken-contest of who dares to fly lowest to the ground if the fight starts at a low alt from the beginning. And it is exciting and fun to fight like this, two equal pilots in equal planes can fly like a mirroring of eachother for several turns before one might make a slight mistake that gives away his victory. That's what I am talking about, that is magic moments that don't happen much anymore.
Not saying that the MA is the right arena for this kind of fights, that is the DA. But still, I think it adds to the MA that there are still a few pilots around that want to fight rather than kill everything head on..
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It ruins the merge sort of, if you have to make precautions to avoid ho shots. It might be that slight disadvantage that will make you blow your E to stay in the safe zone or puts you off your ideal flightpath rather than just be full on aggressive through the merge knowing it is safe and the fight starts when the planes 3/9 line cross.
To me, that's part of the fight.
Wiley.
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Have discovered that many "top" pilots will resort to HOing when they can't gain the upper hand.
So when they complain I just chuckle to myself and fly on.
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Yes, now I follow. And I do agree, it is my responsibility to stay alive and avoid the ho shots. And most of the time nowadays I fly like that, it has become like that over the years as hoing has become more and more usual. Hoing is a part of the game, so I have to make sure I don't get killed by every plane turning my way. I just miss those days when a fight could be had on equal terms and cold guns on the merge, and once in a while I still find pilots that fly like myself. Then I can gladly up sortie after sortie figthing the same guy even if I am in MA and he kills me time after time. If the fights are on equal terms and there are no ho's I don't care about my score or cartoon life, all I care about is the fun in the fights. :joystick: :rock
On the merge itself it probably doesn't make a difference; you simply enter the fight from different positions. I think the underlying objection to HOs is that they terminate the fight much sooner than if both pilots strive to get the kill with a more difficult shot. It's an attitude thing, contrasted between those who view this as a sport and those who view it as a sim. Neither side has any particular claim to moral superiority, as Skyyr might put it, but we sporter-types would just prefer longer and more difficult fights.
- oldman
I agree 100%
The issue as I see it is "in the old days" when you merged BOTH players were looking to set up a good merge to get ahead of the other player. This led to very few strait head on merges as BOTH were looking for an angle. Today most players....even the top tier players go for the HO. Mostly I think because you expect the other player to go for the HO so your move is to get in tight and be 15-25 % of the way through your next more. "IF" you survive the HO attempt you have now put the other guy in a very bad spot.
The other option is to use bigger vertical moves to stay just out of range of a good guns solution for the other guy and force him to burn his E and THEN pounce on him for the kill. The problem with that is while you are draining him 3 buddies come in a clear your 12 for you :rolleyes:
So for a "fighter" type guy you have to dive in there and go for broke right from the start, other wise you lose out on a fight. Of course even then half of those just dive away after missing the HO anyway.
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I agree 100%
The issue as I see it is "in the old days" . . .
In the old days, was there as many high performance plane options as there is today? The Ks, the La7s, the yaks, the Spit16 and the 190s kind of planes. Could more late war HP planes lead to more HOs?
I may be wrong on this but it seems like the most that say its so easy to avoid HOs fly planes like the K or La7. I know when I fly the Ki, I can doggone just about avoid any type of attack but even the 47M when slow has few options to a closing super plane.
I know someone is going to say just don't get slow, but mistakes are made or situation chances quickly. An M flys well slow but doesn't change states quickly like a Ki. A Ki when slow is a dangerous plane to mess with, no matter what because the power and weight give me more options than the larger 47M. A slow D11's lighter weight gives me more options than a slow, heavier, M.
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rule one to not being annoyed by HOs: When you're down and dirty with flaps out and you spot an enemy plane coming in for a shot, do not consider simply pulling nose on and hoping they wont fire as a solution.
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rule one to not being annoyed by HOs: When you're down and dirty with flaps out and you spot an enemy plane coming in for a shot, do not consider simply pulling nose on and hoping they wont fire as a solution.
Yes^
Also, in order to get a better angle on them to get around on their 6, you don't even want to be facing there nose. Fly at a slight angle and push your nose down so they miss and then attempt a loop. I'll shoot close to a HO in 2 positions. If I'm roping someone and their plane titers over and gives me a belly shot. Or I'm coming around on the loop and I get a simi close HO shot but I have a better angle I know they won't get a shot. If I know they can get a shot, I'll turn a bit and go back into a loop.
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In the old days, was there as many high performance plane options as there is today? The Ks, the La7s, the yaks, the Spit16 and the 190s kind of planes. Could more late war HP planes lead to more HOs?
I may be wrong on this but it seems like the most that say its so easy to avoid HOs fly planes like the K or La7. I know when I fly the Ki, I can doggone just about avoid any type of attack but even the 47M when slow has few options to a closing super plane.
I know someone is going to say just don't get slow, but mistakes are made or situation chances quickly. An M flys well slow but doesn't change states quickly like a Ki. A Ki when slow is a dangerous plane to mess with, no matter what because the power and weight give me more options than the larger 47M. A slow D11's lighter weight gives me more options than a slow, heavier, M.
Yes we had cannon planes. The differance between then and now is the type of player you have. Today players are looking to just get the kills and deaths don't matter. In the old days players were more into the spirit of the game and fought fights.
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Yes we had cannon planes. The differance between then and now is the type of player you have. Today players are looking to just get the kills and deaths don't matter. In the old days players were more into the spirit of the game and fought fights.
that's nonsense.
everyone has always looked for easy kills.
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Yes we had cannon planes. The differance between then and now is the type of player you have. Today players are looking to just get the kills and deaths don't matter. In the old days players were more into the spirit of the game and fought fights.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,11391.0.html
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Now bear with me here. I'm suggesting we include and embrace the HO as part of acceptable fighting. I mean a shot from and into any aspect.
I'm already there.
As we all know, in WWII, pilots shot at enemies from all sorts of angles, including head on. If you are wallowing through the air at 100 mph and get shot, that is your problem. The enemy shouldn't be obliged to hold a shot only because your wallowing aircraft happened to have its nose pointed vaguely in his direction. If you have airspeed and get shot with a headon, it's almost always because you were lazy and didn't evade well enough.
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what if we as a community stopped complaining about the HO and accepted it instead.
What took you so long? I've been waiting for you! :D
Next up on the agenda, It's ALLLLL about the 1v1, the plane, the...
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I say no. In real life, anything could be a tactic..... Once. I'm able to avoid 99.9% of HO's, and it still pissses me off.
Why? Because I have to waste energy (and potentially lose angles) just to avoid some arse-muncher who either isn't skilled or self-respecting enough to keep their grimy little fingers off the trigger and let pilot skill decide who wins.
It seems to me that the urge to survive is much too strong in many, given that we have an infinite number.
If you ask me, the best thing HTC could do would be make everyone explode the instant they even thought of rtb'ing, with the kill being given to whatever enemy got closest to you if nobody hit you. Second best thing they could do would be to disable friendly icons. Learn to stand on your own, or get trampled by those who did what you could not.
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Maybe create a new arena and call it "spirited fights only" arena, or "mature players interested only in old school ACM aka chivalrous combat"......something like that. Or charge $9.99 an hour to weed out all the non hackers and squeeky little parasites playing on dads account.....maybe even get rid of weak gamer dad lol.
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Maybe create a new arena and call it "spirited fights only" arena, or "mature players interested only in old school ACM aka chivalrous combat"......something like that. Or charge $9.99 an hour to weed out all the non hackers and squeeky little parasites playing on dads account.....maybe even get rid of weak gamer dad lol.
relax...
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Yes we had cannon planes. The differance between then and now is the type of player you have. Today players are looking to just get the kills and deaths don't matter. In the old days players were more into the spirit of the game and fought fights.
I have to hand it to you Fugi, you've been fighting your naïve crusade for so long now I'm starting to actually think you believe in it.
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Not particularly to pick on you Tank-Ace, but you're the first one to exemplify the contradiction I was trying to highlight:-
I say no. In real life, anything could be a tactic..... Once. I'm able to avoid 99.9% of HO's, and it still pissses me off.
Why? Because I have to waste energy (and potentially lose angles) just to avoid some arse-muncher who either isn't skilled or self-respecting enough to keep their grimy little fingers off the trigger and let pilot skill decide who wins.
Learn to stand on your own, or get trampled by those who did what you could not.
So as a cartoon pilot who clearly values skill do you disagree that it's your responsibility to avoid the HO?
About your losing angles comment, if you set up your merge correctly so you are lead turning while they are still busy trying for the shot then you will gain angles instead. I'm sure a number of people here posting could show you that if you wished.
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In any initial merge situation is it very easy to avoid the HO shot without losing virtually any angles. However if you've already merged and are coming around again or are further into a fight it can be more difficult to avoid the HO shot, due to reduced speeds, closer and tighter maneuvers as you get slow (ie giving you even less time to avoid), and you can lose angles. However it's not usually detrimental to the fight. It all comes down to experience, practice, and getting HO'd a lot to learn to avoid it as much as possible. :D
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I have been flying the Mossie a fair bit lately with tracers off … what a surprise they get when I open up on a HO'er .. they never complain because they initiated the HO, but lost :P
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just. dodge. :banana:
if you get shot down by a HO, its your own fault
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Fack it....I'm in....I'm getting a solid ride with heaps of bullets and I will just turn to ho every time...When I get good enough I won't even have to turn.... not sure how exciting this will be...probably lose interest quickly..but hey...the arenas are dead at my play time anyway....
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just. dodge. :banana:
if you get shot down by a HO, its your own fault
unless your fight is picked by a tempest, you can turn to any direction, he will spray you down.
One more note: 109s get hoed. 190s, not nearly as much :rock
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Anyone who tries to Ho my Yak9T will get a big turnip in the face and if you try a head on and dive at the last minute I will do the same :rofl
Yat9T is a Typhoon that turns :)
Tempest is poo and is for girls
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Fack it....I'm in....I'm getting a solid ride with heaps of bullets and I will just turn to ho every time...When I get good enough I won't even have to turn.... not sure how exciting this will be...probably lose interest quickly..but hey...the arenas are dead at my play time anyway....
:lol
The 190s great for it, are the 109's w/gondolas any good at it? I tend to avoid 'cause sneezing on a 109 makes something fall off, but if you get real good like hotard, well you'll be turning by the time he's getting a faceful of your 20mms
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that's nonsense.
everyone has always looked for easy kills.
Of course they did, but many also avoided the HO situation and went into a fight looking to survive as part of their conditions. People FOUGHT then, today they joust.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,11391.0.html
YES THERE WERE HO'S BACK IN THE DAY! <----- do the big letters make it easier to read? However then it was along the lines of 1 in 10 fights started with a HO, today it is 1 in 1 see the difference? Then the players battled, today they just joust.
I have to hand it to you Fugi, you've been fighting your naïve crusade for so long now I'm starting to actually think you believe in it.
I certainly do believe it, and if you can't admit it then you have your head buried in the sand. See my reply above.
I love running into Sunbat, Latrobe, Grizz and many other "top tier" fighter not because I have much of a chance to win, but because I KNOW I'll have a fun fight.... however long it may last WITH OUT ANY HO's! Why is that? Maybe it is because these guys are in it for the fight, the thrill of out maneuvering the opponent and getting the kill shot all the while working to stay out of the guns of the same or many opponents. The vast majority of players today are "gamers" who want nothing more than the "kill". Picture "Call of Duty" in the air.
In the old days while score board watching wasn't that big a deal, kill to death and/or kill streaks where what more players went for and HOing wasn't the best way to make a good streak or make a good k/d number as even the best HOers could keep little over 50% in that category.
You may not want to admit it but game play is far weaker now than it was then. Even the missions run back then had far more skill involved. Remember running into any of the BOPs missions? They brought buffs, high caps that protected the buffs, advance fighter sweep that cleared the area and deacked, and they would even cap while the rest of the squad landed. Compare that to today were we see the horde of lawn darting P38 and ponies leveling a field THEN working to town trying to get the troops in BEFORE the hangers pop, because if they don't the mission is a bust and they move off to grab one someplace else.
Yes we had HOs in the old days, YES we had hordes in the old days, but it wasn't EVERY merge, or EVERY mission like it is now.
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unless your fight is picked by a tempest, you can turn to any direction, he will spray you down.
One more note: 109s get hoed. 190s, not nearly as much :rock
But if he picked you from behind, that would be A-OK. :headscratch:
You guys are weird.
Wiley.
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unless your fight is picked by a tempest, you can turn to any direction, he will spray you down.
One more note: 109s get hoed. 190s, not nearly as much :rock
Getting picked is another issue - but that boils down to being your own fault too!
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Are you wearing a syrup in your avatar Micky?
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yes this one is from my '90s collection :banana:
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Yes we had HOs in the old days, YES we had hordes in the old days, but it wasn't EVERY merge, or EVERY mission like it is now.
it isn't though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is the tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses.[Note 1][1] People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position.
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HI Kvuo you are awesome
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HI Kvuo you are awesome
:aok :old:
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unless your fight is picked by a tempest, you can turn to any direction, he will spray you down.
One more note: 109s get hoed. 190s, not nearly as much :rock
Two guys in my squad proved otherwise last FSO frame. :headscratch:
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YES THERE WERE HO'S BACK IN THE DAY! <----- do the big letters make it easier to read? However then it was along the lines of 1 in 10 fights started with a HO, today it is 1 in 1 see the difference? Then the players battled, today they just joust.
Neh. It was deemed 'whine on the forum worthy' then and some still resort to that now (only with, well back then we were all 'skilled gentlemen' bs). Hey, it's not unusual to reinvent .... then or now .... to suit our preferences and prejudices.
Yes we had HOs in the old days, YES we had hordes in the old days, but it wasn't EVERY merge, or EVERY mission like it is now.
You're exaggerating both ends of this timeline. ;)
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it isn't though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
Prezactly. :cheers:
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Ho, Ho, Ho
Almost
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So as a cartoon pilot who clearly values skill do you disagree that it's your responsibility to avoid the HO?
I think everyone should be able to avoid the HO, and that they cannot complain about being shot down by a HO. In that sense, I feel it is your responsibility to avoid the HO, yes. But I also feel that its something they shouldn't have to do.
I rarely complain about being shot down by a HO because 1) I rarely accept HO's, and 2) I'm usually packing 30mm's, so I very rarely lose a HO.
What I complain about is the HO in general, chronic HO'ers (won't name name's), and those that HO and run.
About your losing angles comment, if you set up your merge correctly so you are lead turning while they are still busy trying for the shot then you will gain angles instead. I'm sure a number of people here posting could show you that if you wished.
If every merge were exactly how I would have it in an ideal world, I'd have a much easier time of it. Unfortunately the reality of things are that not every merge will be to your liking, and you won't have the chance to affect changes to that end.
While I understand what you're saying, the reality is that in some cases the HO can be used to force someone to maneuver and lose angles.
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I certainly do believe it, and if you can't admit it then you have your head buried in the sand.
I think if you believe that of me then it only proves your ignorance to who I am and how I fly this game.
What I think is naïve about your methods is that you have never learned that ranting and raving about your dislikes does little to nothing to change the environment you are complaining about.
There are many positive ways you could chose to influence the community to become more to your liking and yet you are still stuck on the most basic of all attitudes in attempting to do so. However, I respect your right to chose how you react to a problem and have long since lost interest in trying to educate you to a higher level of influencing your surroundings.
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Getting picked is another issue - but that boils down to being your own fault too!
If im doing circles in the sector 1,1, at 40k alt, i wont be getting picked.
Thats a big truth.
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\Now bear with me here. I'm suggesting we include and embrace the HO as part of acceptable fighting.
+1. I've never understood the griping. I came in here thinking it was legit based on accounts I'd read of pilots who were afraid to break from a HO because turning gives the enemy a bigger target. There are real-life cases of pilots ending up in each other's cockpits as a result of the HO.
That said, I can usually tell when someone's going to and when they're going to pull down for speed and a quick reversal.
People need to grow up. It's just a game. Any chance at a quick kill can and will be exploited.
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Anyone who tries to Ho my Yak9T will get a big turnip in the face and if you try a head on and dive at the last minute I will do the same :rofl
Yat9T is a Typhoon that turns :)
Tempest is poo and is for girls
I'm starting to appreciate your commentary, Zack. Tempest is for girls. At the same time, Deb makes a point I find uncannily true - the one about getting sprayed regardless by the drag queen in the Temp. I suicide-vulched a notorious Temp-picker the other weekend. When I saw that thing on the runway, I said, screw it, I'm taking that one with me. As luck would have it, I was in a P-39Q (a ride I'm not usually in). Of course, he ate the plus size tater before his ack took my wings.
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I HO I HO
text buffer tells me so
cause high aspect
gets no respect
I HO I HO
I HO I HO
my ACM must blow
in your face
is pure disgrace
I HO I HO
It's funny when players ignore the fact that no HO's make the fight easier for experienced players and harder for noobs.
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If every merge were exactly how I would have it in an ideal world, I'd have a much easier time of it. Unfortunately the reality of things are that not every merge will be to your liking, and you won't have the chance to affect changes to that end.
...and that is part of the game. Not every fight starts on terms that are to your liking, sometimes the guy will have alt, sometimes he will be faster than you. Sometimes he might even be in a better plane.
It's part of the game to do what you can with the situation you're given. The arbitrary requirement for people to be allowed to fly through their opponent's gunsight or :cry ensues is just flat out silly.
Wiley.
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It's funny when players ignore the fact that no HO's make the fight easier for experienced players and harder for noobs.
Yep. And it's almost always experienced players who get ticked off when they do it....
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Yep. And it's almost always experienced players who get ticked off when they do it....
Do we know that? It seems like lots of people here, many of whom are experienced, have accepted the HO as a fact of life.
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Do we know that? It seems like lots of people here, many of whom are experienced, have accepted the HO as a fact of life.
If we accepted the HO, why would people get ticked off? It's more "expecting" you will probably get Ho'd.
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If we accepted the HO, why would people get ticked off? It's more "expecting" you will probably get Ho'd.
Restating - is it this contingent here - that tends toward experience - that is actually aggrieved? Or, is it some contingent out there on 200?
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Restating - is it this contingent here - that tends toward experience - that is actually aggrieved? Or, is it some contingent out there on 200?
My hunch is both, but the more I think about it the more it may depend on what player "camp" you lean towards rather than experience. The furballers appear to hate HOs or any front quarter shot and avoid employing it. The BnZ / alt crowd appears to be somewhat more accepting of at least using front quarter shots as a weapon. I'm somewhat in the middle between the two camps but will not normally take pure zero degree HO shots. I will use off nose shots to end a fight quickly if the opportunity presents itself and the tactical situation requires it. I beleive others who sit between the pure furballers and BnZers are similarly inclined, but also recognize that these are all generalizations.
I personally don't get ticked off about HOs much anymore because I always go into a fight expecting someone to come in spraying fire from a thousand out at my face. It's really not a big deal if you anticipate it and take steps to avoid and counter. Personally I'd estimate less than 10%-15% of HO attempts land any rounds and it's even more rare I actually get shot down from one*.
* Actually, it would be better to say that 0% of HOs attempts currently connect as haven't been playing AH for several weeks. ;)
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What I would take from this thread, (and i'm probably wrong), would be that the HO is an exploit that creates almost equality between two pilots, that is if both accept the HO initiation. In other words, difference in skill level becomes almost a moot point for those 2 seconds under 1k. This is a wonderful and almost unrefusable incentive to those players that feel that they are possibly (or probably) going to be in a fight against a superior opponent. If you think you're going to lose this engagement, (possibly because you lose most of your other engagements), that 2 seconds of almost equality with your opponent is just too alluring. It may just be your only chance of winning this encounter, or at the very least taking him with you.
My point I guess, would be that the HO is only to your advantage if your opponent is better than you, which means by default it is the responsability of the superior pilot to not allow the other to 'drag him down' to where his/her skills no longer matter.
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What I would take from this thread, (and i'm probably wrong), would be that the HO is an exploit that creates almost equality between two pilots, that is if both accept the HO initiation. In other words, difference in skill level becomes almost a moot point for those 2 seconds under 1k. This is a wonderful and almost unrefusable incentive to those players that feel that they are possibly (or probably) going to be in a fight against a superior opponent. If you think you're going to lose this engagement, (possibly because you lose most of your other engagements), that 2 seconds of almost equality with your opponent is just too alluring. It may just be your only chance of winning this encounter, or at the very least taking him with you.
My point I guess, would be that the HO is only to your advantage if your opponent is better than you, which means by default it is the responsability of the superior pilot to not allow the other to 'drag him down' to where his/her skills no longer matter.
This is sound reasoning: the burden of skill. If you don't like the HO, learn to defang it. For my own part, if the approaching pilot defers, I try to as well, because it usually means I'm about to learn something, if at the expense of my own ace. The thing is, most of the good pilots I see - eg, Latrobe, who killed me the other week - handle the merge notably different than, I don't know, Sycodon or somebody.
The funny thing about Latrobe: He was in a Pony, I in a G-6. I kept jockeying at a distance to try to get some alt on him so I could do the old dive-shoot-pull up-roll-reverse-dive-again and I could tell, even at near max icon range, he wasn't having any of it. Given his speed advantage, by the time I got the fight, I knew I was more or less screwed.
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Over the years I've read countless threads about running and even participated in a few. There's hardly been a single session I've flown when someone or other isn't typing 'nice run' or 'you running b**tard' etc. None of these threads and not one of these complaints has ever put and end to running (note: we can't say it doesn't reduce it because the cultural pressure is continuous).
In Aces High it's almost become synomomous with swearing, it's not acceptable but there's an awful lot of it going about. I've seen more bitter complaints and more discord amongst players over the running than any other aspect of gameplay, so a weird thought occured to me: what if we as a community stopped complaining about the running and accepted it instead.
Now bear with me here. I'm suggesting we include and embrace the running as part of acceptable fighting. I mean a run from any fight. No discussion of both or only one party staying to fight, no debate over altitude and cowardess, simply give your opponent a chance to run, and he runs.
So now the expectation changes, instead of expecting NOT to have guys run out of the anticipation of sporting behaviour we expect them TO run every time. Those that have been objecting to running on the grounds it is unskillful now have the responsibility to learn how to accept it and can't complain if they get ran away from, or they start flying faster planes. Thus this hole in whats acceptable to those who want people to stay engaged, becomes filled.
Those that run presently do not gain anything nor lose anything save the end of negative comments (which they apparently don't care about anyway).
For those that dislike getting ran away from, the burden of responsibility shifts onto temselves instead of expected behaviour from another player which I think we can all agree is only a recipe for dissapointment, annoyance and discord. In AH culture, running is one circumstance in a fight where people get mad that the other guy decided to leave. This is illogical and unrealistic in the context of this combative virtual environment.
Employing the same 'persuasion by negative comments' approach which is demonstrably not working over and over year in, year out is the definition of futility. How about a paradigm shift instead?
:D Just seeing how it read with inserting some other popular but unpopular behavior.
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I haven't seen too many K or 16 drivers throttle back when they go vertical. Run flat or run up, what is the difference? Both are escaping the fight for that moment. How about the 262s? They run out then come back. Same, same.
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Over the years I've read countless threads about running and even participated in a few. There's hardly been a single session I've flown when someone or other isn't typing 'nice run' or 'you running b**tard' etc. None of these threads and not one of these complaints has ever put and end to running (note: we can't say it doesn't reduce it because the cultural pressure is continuous).
In Aces High it's almost become synomomous with swearing, it's not acceptable but there's an awful lot of it going about. I've seen more bitter complaints and more discord amongst players over the running than any other aspect of gameplay, so a weird thought occured to me: what if we as a community stopped complaining about the running and accepted it instead.
Now bear with me here. I'm suggesting we include and embrace the running as part of acceptable fighting. I mean a run from any fight. No discussion of both or only one party staying to fight, no debate over altitude and cowardess, simply give your opponent a chance to run, and he runs.
So now the expectation changes, instead of expecting NOT to have guys run out of the anticipation of sporting behaviour we expect them TO run every time. Those that have been objecting to running on the grounds it is unskillful now have the responsibility to learn how to accept it and can't complain if they get ran away from, or they start flying faster planes. Thus this hole in whats acceptable to those who want people to stay engaged, becomes filled.
Those that run presently do not gain anything nor lose anything save the end of negative comments (which they apparently don't care about anyway).
For those that dislike getting ran away from, the burden of responsibility shifts onto temselves instead of expected behaviour from another player which I think we can all agree is only a recipe for dissapointment, annoyance and discord. In AH culture, running is one circumstance in a fight where people get mad that the other guy decided to leave. This is illogical and unrealistic in the context of this combative virtual environment.
Employing the same 'persuasion by negative comments' approach which is demonstrably not working over and over year in, year out is the definition of futility. How about a paradigm shift instead?
:D Just seeing how it read with inserting some other popular but unpopular behavior.
It doesn't read well....but consider:
1.) Does all the negative exposure to "running" cut down on the occurrence?
2.) Shouldn't one expect some opponents to cut and run and be watching for it? So rather than blindly trusting that the guy will "merge" with you, pull up after the 3/9 line is crossed and go at it like jousting Knights (with honor!!)...... you instead end up watching the bandit for indications he's going to blow through and take off like a rabbit on fire. Once you see those....you can take steps to counter and get in a position to maybe kill him....say a lead turn prior to the 3/9 merge?
While it doesn't read well...its more of a realistic approach than pounding on ones chest shouting indignation to the heavens (errr...or ch200) as the guy goes scurrying off. :old:
:(
I'm just a realist I guess.
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:D Just fooling around. Running, HOing, vulching, etc, etc, etc are all similar to me. There are times that call for it. There are also times when its a silly waste of a player's and his opponents time. If there are 300 players on, there are 300 Generals on...not a lot of stuff about the game that is controlled only by free will is going to change.
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You guys are all noons!! I shall HO you all hahahahah!!! :neener:
Actually not really.
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You guys are all noons!! I shall HO you all hahahahah!!! :neener:
:D
I put forward the motion that from now on the term 'noob' be replaced with the term 'noon'
this is how the intraweb works
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What a complete noony
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:D
I put forward the motion that from now on the term 'noob' be replaced with the term 'noon'
this is how the intraweb works
Seconded.