Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Mongoose on July 23, 2014, 11:26:10 AM
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I have found another plane that needs to be updated in the airplane wiki. So....
Calling all HE111 pilots. Tell me about the HE111.
Tell me about things like
Firepower
Maneuverability
Fighting in the He 111H
Fighting against the He 111H
I will compile the results for the wiki.
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Tell me about things like
Firepower abysmal
Maneuverability like a barn door
Fighting in the He 111H means dying
Fighting against the He 111H it's killing, not 'fighting' it
:D
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I beat 2 190D-9s in a dog fight with 1. 2 foward 20mms are fun :)
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A cement mixer with flat tires can out turn a 190D. :rolleyes:
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A cement mixer with flat tires can out turn a 190D. :rolleyes:
Absolutely untrue and hurtful!
I outturned a Spit IX once in a Dora. It was close but I did it! :old: :banana:
I later discovered the pilot was a two-weeker with the stall limiter turned on. :uhoh :cry
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Absolutely untrue and hurtful!
I outturned a Spit IX once in a Dora. It was close but I did it! :old: :banana:
I later discovered the pilot was a two-weeker with the stall limiter turned on. :uhoh :cry
I figured he was afk and you eventually caught him on the third full turn. ;)
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Speed: Wait, this thing moves?
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I figured he was afk and you eventually caught him on the third full turn. ;)
Nope. He was only AFK for the first few minutes of the engagement. :D
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HE111 is one of the few planes I have true sympathy for when I encounter them. Ill try and fly escort for them, but usually I just get shot at and have to put her down. Humanely of course.
It carries a good payload, its Sexy, and its the only updated German bomber that can be flown in formation, that's about all it has going for it. If you want a German style buff raid that isn't limited to 64Bit textures than the HE111 is your plane. I think the only advantage it holds over its counter part, the ju88 is range.
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It carries a good payload, its Sexy, and its the only updated German bomber that can be flown in formation
No German formation bomber in AH has ever been updated :neener:
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No German formation bomber in AH has ever been updated :neener:
What I meant was a German formation bomber modelled sometime in the last decade
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A 64 bit texture would be really, really good. :p
Mayhap you mean 8 bit or 16 bit? Still, not really how AH textures work, but a better approximation of "bad".
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A 64 bit texture would be really, really good. :p
Mayhap you mean 8 bit or 16 bit? Still, not really how AH textures work, but a better approximation of "bad".
:mad:
It looks like a bad guy from the DOS sidescroller KEEN.
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All of this is nice and funny. :lol And the humor is appreciated.
But now, can we please get some useful information?
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I think Pembquist summed it up very nicely:
"Starting with the Spanish Civil War, in my opinion nothing says nazi bomber like an he 111. It represents cutting edge technology of the thirties, the remilitarization of Germany, aspirations of conquest and domination, and brutal narcissistic pageantry that held the rest of the world in lethal contempt. In the end it became as outmoded as the ideas and leadership of the nation that built it. And while as aesthetically complete a distillation of violence as beauty as the Hugo Boss uniforms of the German millitary, it also shared the unfortunate feature of being a very dangerous thing to be in by 1944."
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I think Pembquist summed it up very nicely:
"Starting with the Spanish Civil War, in my opinion nothing says nazi bomber like an he 111. It represents cutting edge technology of the thirties, the remilitarization of Germany, aspirations of conquest and domination, and brutal narcissistic pageantry that held the rest of the world in lethal contempt. In the end it became as outmoded as the ideas and leadership of the nation that built it. And while as aesthetically complete a distillation of violence as beauty as the Hugo Boss uniforms of the German millitary, it also shared the unfortunate feature of being a very dangerous thing to be in by 1944."
Yada Yada Yada... Lemme sum it up for Faulkner here :) In the Late War Arena it sucks. It's a death trap. :uhoh
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Yada Yada Yada... Lemme sum it up for Faulkner here :) In the Late War Arena it sucks. It's a death trap. :uhoh
Actually it's not much different in the other arenas. A2A stats in EW for the first 6 months of this year are ugly as well. It might have more of a chance to get at least one bomber home when intercepted because it's opponent may run our of bullets after the first two.
But it's still easily intercepted and engaged.
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Bring able escorts or die.
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I haven't flown her in awhile but, when she was first introduced to AH it seemed to me that the He111 could soak up a fair amount of damage and still fly away (as long as that damage wasn't in the glass nose area)
Historically I can understand why both 20mm cannon were placed facing forward but this is one of those instances where what worked in real life is opposite of what would work in aces high.
IIRC the He111 was the Luftwaffe's most numerous level bomber, but I might be wrong about that.
She has some of the best in cockpit views for taxi, take off and landing of all the bombers currently in game.
The air disruptor (dive brake?) that extends down at the front of the bomb bay doors (when the bay doors are open) does seem to have a slight drag effect (in combination with the drag from the open bay doors I'm sure) that I had found useful when slope bombing.
Like most bombers, don't fly directly to your target. Try to set up your bomb run so you are on your "egress from enemy territory route" when done with the bomb run.
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HE-111 has extremely good range ( best range for a non perked buff, at the expense of your payload) , and that's about all it has going for it.
It's defensive armament is weak where it matters consisting mostly of 7.92mm machine guns. There is the option to add a couple of MGFF 20mms, one in the nose and another forward facing in the ventral gondola, however the guns ballistic properties and rate of fire are poor. Taking the 20mm package might protect you from attacks coming from your low 8 to 2 O'clock area, but you are very vulnerable from every other angle.
The HE-111 is not very rugged either, it is prone to catching fire and its large wings don't soak up damage all to well. This means it is not ideal for low level attacks as most Anti-Aircraft defenses will make quick work of them.
It carries a little less than a B-17 in terms of Ordnance.
It's climb rate and top speed are on par with most Heavy bombers, maybe even worse, any late war fighter will have an easy time running them down.
If your going to be taking HE111s out, don't expect to be coming back in anything other than a body bag, that is unless you bring sufficient escort. If you are caught without fighter escort, your best bet is to try and sucker the enemy into approaching from either your High, or Dead 6 O'clock. If it looks like he's setting himself up for smart attacks, try to throw him off by maneuvering out of his guns. Be carful not to lose the rest of your formation though. Its likely that they'll become frustrated and saddle up on your tail, which would allow you the best firing angle. Its recommended you don't shoot until your opponent is at most 400 out, and when you do aim for the canopy, the 7.92mm is a small round, but the guns can put a lot down range and a PW or pilot kill is very possible.
Fighting against the HE111 is pretty simple, Don't sit on his 6'oclock, but even then you can probably get away with it.
(http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r561/folanjohnp1/He-111fight_zps7bcceb88.jpg)
Still made it to target though :rock
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It carries a little less than a B-17 in terms of Ordnance.
It carries almost exactly the same load as the B-26 (8x250kg vs 8x500lbs)
It's climb rate and top speed are on par with most Heavy bombers, maybe even worse
Worse for the most part, and the He-111 ain't even a heavy bomber at all (see above). It's in the same class as the B-26 as far as loadout goes, and compared to that one is just a rock, and a unarmed one to boot.
The air disruptor (dive brake?) that extends down at the front of the bomb bay doors (when the bay doors are open)
It's not a dive brake but indeed spoilers meant to control the air flow around the open bomb bay.
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The He111 was a great bomber, seriously. The problem is that in AH the He111 has to fend off fighters it normally didnt have to deal with (think Spit I vs Spit 16, or Yak 7B vs La7, or even P40C/E vs P51D). In the early stages of WWII, it had to fend off enemy fighters of less caliber (no pun intended) than it sees in AH on a regular basis. Plus, it usually had a swarm of 109's providing escort.
As Looshy already pointed out, it mirrors the B26 in bombing poundage (4000 lbs, roughly). But, the He111 has the ability to carry a more versatile load (torps, BFB's, many dinky bombs, lots of medium bombs, etc).
Yeah, it is a slower and less defensively armed bomber than say the B26, but get a capable escort fighter or two and make good use of the bomb load. Dont forget the MASSIVE range it has, either. Get it to its best alt and get to 265 TAS (17k, iirc), and get an escort fighter.
FYI: I used the He111's to make a town WF once upon a time (from 100% up). The bombs hit perfectly to maximize effect, and I made full use of the forward 20mm to get a couple of already damaged buildings on the edge of the blast zones. Instead of trashing the He111, accept the challenge and enlist a fighter escort. :aok
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHx3lWQjNWM :salute
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I like it but haven't been flying too much lately. The best way to use it, in my opinion, is to take off a couple bases back or at the coast, point it in the direction of a quiet enemy town a few sectors away and go out to the fridge for a bottle of something you like to drink, then....do some laundry, level off the formation and make sure it's still pointed at the town, cut the grass if its a small yard, don't call your mom (there isn't enough time for that,) but maybe put up some of that crap you left out on a work bench in the basement, maybe a little vacuuming? Anyway plan to be back at the controls for your IP. Make a couple passes on town to good effect and start back. If anybody ups they will start foaming at the mouth and chase you, you might get lucky if they are carried away and really, really careless about staying too long in your sights, also they sometimes get a little unhinged and crash into you which is funny. If you are still up and they are down you can try the usual evasives such as diving for the water with a smoking engine to fly back at 20' AGL for instance, (very Battle of Britain cinema graphic,) but don't fly back at the same altitude and heading as you are asking for it. When you land check how many points you pulled down and revisit the refrigerator. I realize it is not an efficient perk farmer but it's kinda like fun but different.
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Thanks, guys. I should be able to distill some useful information for the wiki from all of this.
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Bring able escorts or die.
:lol Even WITH able escorts, you are pretty much in a whole heap of trouble. Unless you have 8 fighters per plane; not per set, per plane. :)
See, I made plans when in the He-111 when I'm intercepted:
First, I plan to soil myself. Then I'm going to regroup and come up with a new plan.
Any thoughts?
:D
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:lol Even WITH able escorts, you are pretty much in a whole heap of trouble. Unless you have 8 fighters per plane; not per set, per plane. :)
See, I made plans when in the He-111 when I'm intercepted:
First, I plan to soil myself. Then I'm going to regroup and come up with a new plan.
Any thoughts?
:D
Depends
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Just my $.02; I'm no expert, but I flew it a bit today in the MA. Turning is phenomenal. Flying it is like butter. It feels light and nimble, much more so than any other bomber. That being said, it's definitely no speed demon, and the climb leaves a lot to be desired above 10k. It's a little more rugged than folks have let on. I was able to survive an attack from a P-51 with no damage sustained.
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Depends
:aok Bravo for the double entendre! :aok
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(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/lwbuffsa2a_zpsefb95966.jpg)
(the chart is showning A2A results exclusively)
Even the Imperial Lighter seems to beat the He 111 in terms of survivability
In AH. the substantially better durability doesn't help much if you can't shoot back effectively.
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(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/lwbuffsa2a_zpsefb95966.jpg)
(the chart is showning A2A results exclusively)
Even the Imperial Lighter seems to beat the He 111 in terms of survivability
In AH. the substantially better durability doesn't help much if you can't shoot back effectively.
You know, the scary part is that Lusche probably has tons of data on all of us somewhere in his spreadsheets. :uhoh
And the Germans were upset with us over the NSA?? Geez. :huh
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You know, the scary part is that Lusche probably has tons of data on all of us somewhere in his spreadsheets. :uhoh
He has, but much less than you think ;)
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Depends
:lol Well the BoB Scenario doesn't count in this case as it's being implied MA usage. Least this is how I read it. :headscratch:
Then again, very good escorts (which are far and few) will tend to keep them off us very well. This was proven in the BoB scenario. :aok
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Even the Imperial Lighter seems to beat the He 111 in terms of survivability
Which one has longer range? I know the G4M1 climbs much better, is slightly faster and carries a smaller bombload.
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Which 111H variant is it anyway? a H-6? Does it have any 13mm MG131 options? MG 81Z?
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Which one has longer range? I know the G4M1 climbs much better, is slightly faster and carries a smaller bombload.
I haven't tested it in detail (climbing with 100% to best alt, then determining range left). On the deck, the He 111 has 2.2 hours at ful mil and the G4M 2.1h, but considering the much better ROC and cruising speed the 100% G4M should beat a 100% He 111.
It's a different thing when the He 111 choses a small bomb load + drop tanks (endurance on deck 2.7h).
But that's mostly academical in AH, as both bombers are in my experience rarely used for long range missions.
Which 111H variant is it anyway? a H-6? Does it have any 13mm MG131 options? MG 81Z?
Seems like our 111 is a mix of different early H variants. The 'best' weapon set you can get is 20mm MG-FF in nose and forward gondola, single MG-15 in dorsal, left, right and rear gondola positions.
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So we basically have a BoB-era He 111H. A H-16 or H-20 would be appropriate for 1943 and 1944 eastern front. By then it was a 270 mph aircraft, similar to a B-25. Powered turret with 13mm MG131, flexible mount MG131 and MG81Z. Perhaps HTC can make a mid-late war version as well.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/He111H20R3-1%20KG55.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/He111H20-1%20KG55.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/Luftwaffe-pilot-Oberleutnant-Walter-Grasemann-in-front-of-Heinkel-He-111H-9.KG27-%281G%2BBT%29.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/He111-H20-13f.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/He111-H20-42.jpg)
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So we basically have a BoB-era He 111H. A H-16 or H-20 would be appropriate for 1943 and 1944 eastern front. By then it was a 270 mph aircraft, similar to a B-25. Powered turret with 13mm MG131, flexible mount MG131 and MG81Z. Perhaps HTC can make a mid-late war version as well.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/He111H20R3-1%20KG55.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/He111H20-1%20KG55.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/Luftwaffe-pilot-Oberleutnant-Walter-Grasemann-in-front-of-Heinkel-He-111H-9.KG27-%281G%2BBT%29.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/He111-H20-13f.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/He111-H20-42.jpg)
Or... completely blow off the 111 and give us the Do-217 or even the He-177. HTC could even program in random engine fires. :lol
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We already have the 111, and the aircraft itself changed very little. Just better engines and guns.
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We already have the 111, and the aircraft itself changed very little. Just better engines and guns.
Exactly. It didn't change enough to make it worth flying in Late War. Give us the 217, or the 177. Or even the Ju-188 for that matter. They're far more suited to the Late War Arena than the 111.
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You're missing the point.
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What is the difference between a Spit I and a Spit16...
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What is the difference between a Spit I and a Spit16...
The spit 1 is better... :old: :old: :old: :neener: :neener: :neener:
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What is the difference between a Spit I and a Spit16...
The Spit XVI is a Spit I that overdosed on steroids and consequently has very small nads.
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You're missing the point.
I agree. The He-111 is easily my new favorite non-heavy bomber. I freaking love this thing, mostly because it's absolutely beautiful, much more so than any of the other German level bombers.
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I loved flying it in the BOB event. We ran into a cloud of rifle caliber Hurricanes and the fight was on. Classic!
Sometimes "History" is enough to love an airplane.
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What is the difference between a Spit I and a Spit16...
It's a difference magnitudes larger than the difference between a He-111 H-6 and a He 111 H-16 ;)
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Not really. The Spit Mk Vb is a Mk I with the Merlin 45 series engines and better guns. The Spit Mk IX is a Mk III (itself a slightly improved Mk I) with the bigger Merlin 60 series engines. The Spit16 is a Spit LF Mk IX with an American made Merlin. The basic structure of the aircraft changed very little.
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Not really. The Spit Mk Vb is a Mk I with the Merlin 45 series engines and better guns. The Spit Mk IX is a Mk III (itself a slightly improved Mk I) with the bigger Merlin 60 series engines. The Spit16 is a Spit LF Mk IX with an American made Merlin. The basic structure of the aircraft changed very little.
There are more changes than just those and you're minimizing those quite a bit.
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Not really. The Spit Mk Vb is a Mk I with the Merlin 45 series engines and better guns. The Spit Mk IX is a Mk III (itself a slightly improved Mk I) with the bigger Merlin 60 series engines. The Spit16 is a Spit LF Mk IX with an American made Merlin. The basic structure of the aircraft changed very little.
I wasn't talking about structure - I was talking about the performance difference especially in regard to the AH combat environment.
The Spit 1 & 16 are worlds apart in performance and thus survivability (tripling(!) it's K/D in the process). In case of the He 111 H-6 & H-16, this difference would be comparatively minor.
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Then you completely missed the point of my post. It is all about the structure; it wouldn't cost HTC a lot of time to make a late-war version since they wouldn't have to redo the 3D-model. Even the turret can be dispensed with as most H-16s simply had a MG131 in a flex mount in the original position. The turret became standard in later versions. Also, we don't have a H-6 as that version had better engines. We have a H1 to H-4 hybrid of sorts, depending on what guns you select.
As for performance the Spitfire I to XVI goes from 312 mph at SL to 344 mph. An increase of 10.2%.
The He 111 H1-H4 to H-16 would go from 221 at SL to about 244 mph. An increase of 10.4%.
A He 111H-16 would be almost as fast as a Ju-88 at 20K.
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There are more changes than just those and you're minimizing those quite a bit.
Not really no. One of the two Mk III built became the prototype Mk XI. The modified wings of the Mk III were discarded and instead they used the standard A/B/C types (the 8x Browning A-type was used on the prototype, same as on the Mk I). The rear fuselage was lengthened a few inches to balance the weight of the new engines and add stability. The landing gear was strengthened and angled forward two inches. There were plenty of other minor component changes like armored windscreen, wheel well doors and a retractable tail wheel, but not to the structure itself. The Mk IX did not have the aerodynamic and strength improvements, or the modified control surfaces of the Mk VII and VIII. And the final modification to make it a Mk XVI was a new upper engine cowling which incorporated a distinct bulged top surface to allow for the modified intercooler of the Packard Merlin 266, which had an integral header tank.
If you think otherwise please enlighten me as to the structural differences that I have missed.
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Then you completely missed the point of my post.
I added another one :)
As for performance the Spitfire I to XVI goes from 312 mph at SL to 344 mph. An increase of 10.2%.
The He 111 H1-H4 to H-16 would go from 221 as SL to about 244 mph. An increase of 10.4%.
A He 111H-16 would be almost as fast as a Ju-88 at 20K.
In other words: Still dead meat on the table. This speed improvement will just barely change the survival chances on it's own.
You can't just measure speed differences in simple percentages... you also have to consider about which speed range we are talking. The Spi I is much slower than about every other fighter it will encounter, the 16 not anymore. The 111 H-16 will still be slow, even with 10% more top speed.
The performance improvement for Spit I->XVI in top speed, rate of roll armament and climb rate make all the difference between a death trap (in LW arena context) that can hardly can get a kill (again in overall MA context) and a stellar, very powerful fighter that received "perk it" cries more than any other ride in the past.
A HE 111 that's "almost as fast" as a Ju 88 and still has limited (yet improved armament) will still be a quite underperforming bomber in the arena.
So yes, the difference between Spit 1 & 16 and He 111 H-6 and H-16 are indeed worlds apart.
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With the more powerful engines climb rate will improve, which mean more He 111 pilots will get up to higher alts where the 111 is faster. A 30mph improvement in top speed at 20K means longer time for the fighters to intercept. It also means the fighter will take longer to overtake the 111 allowing the gunners more time to hit the fighter. Improved defensive guns (very much improved, like 4-5x the firepower) also contributes to increased survivability.
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With the more powerful engines climb rate will improve, which mean more He 111 pilots will get up to higher alts where the 111 is faster. A 30mph improvement in top speed at 20K means longer time for the fighters to intercept. It also means the fighter will take longer to overtake the 111 allowing the gunners more time to hit the fighter. Improved defensive guns (very much improved, like 4-5x the firepower) also contributes to increased survivability.
These are all improvements. I never disputed that.
But they don't generally change the high vulnerability of the HE 111 in LW arena in a huge way. An "almost as fast as a Ju 88" bomber with a dorsal 13.1mm (less powerful than a .50 cal) turret and fast firing, but still rfile caliber guns left right and a limited bottom mount (no tail gunner!) is still a very vulnerable bomber.
Again, this evolution from H-6 to H-16 won't even make a fraction of the difference than the evolution between Spit 1 and Spit 16 in the context of arena gameplay. Whis is what I was pointing out.
"It also means the fighter will take longer to overtake the 111 allowing the gunners more time to hit the fighter." - Why would anybody overtake it and expose it to the guns while at it?
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We don't have a H-6!
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Feel free to replace "H-6" with "current version"
Does it change the point?
Nope.
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I've made my point. You've made yours; I don't agree with it.
However, you've not explained why you don't want a late-model He 111 except that it wouldn't be very survivable in the MA... That's not a good reason.
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However, you've not explained why you don't want a late-model He 111
I don't have to explain that because I never said such a thing.
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Good.
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I think that Lusche is trying to make this point:
Spit I in LWA: Deathtrap.
Spit XVI in LWA: Top line fighter.
He111H-6 in LWA: Deathtrap.
He111H-16 in LWA: Deathtrap.
Is the H-16 less of a deathtrap than the H-6? Yes, but not enough to be considered something other than a deathtrap. the H-16 would likely beat the G4M1's K/D ratio, but not much else. So whatever the changes to the Spit XVI compared to the Spit I, the effectiveness of those changes are much greater than any the He111 saw.
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Is the H-16 less of a deathtrap than the H-6? Yes, but not enough to be considered something other than a deathtrap.
In terms of K/D, I would expect it to end up in the Ju-88 area:
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/lwbuffsa2a_zpsefb95966.jpg)
But it would not be able to cross the (imaginary, yet very distinct border line that's currently dividing the formation bomber set between the B-24J and the Lancaster
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So in your opinion it becomes "only" twice as good by that metric...
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So in your opinion it becomes "only" twice as good by that metric...
Twice as good is still very bad in the case of the He111. You can't look at it in a vacuum.
I am not saying it shouldn't be done, just that doing so would not significantly increase its usage.
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It's not about usage. It's about giving the people who do fly it in the MA the best version that was available in numbers. About half of all He 111s produced during WWII were the later H variants H-11 to H-20 (with sub-types).
And if you look at Luche's list the current 111 is at the very bottom, only marginally better than an unarmed bomber in K/D. However if Luche's expectations hold true it becomes one of the best non-US bombers that isn't a Ki-67...
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Of the 1100 He 111 H-16 built, 900 were of the /R1 variant which was supposed to be fitted with the MG 131 turret.
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Interesting, thanks!
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The only way an He-111 is going to shoot me down is if I collide with it.
That's been the case with Lancasters for some time and eventually I will crash into a Heinkel too.
Looking forward to skies filled with the "leetest" He-111. :D
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And if you look at Luche's list the current 111 is at the very bottom, only marginally better than an unarmed bomber in K/D. However if Luche's expectations hold true it becomes one of the best non-US bombers that isn't a Ki-67...
I wonder where the Tu-2 shows up on that list?
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I was also wondering that.
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I wonder where the Tu-2 shows up on that list?
oooops :o oversight
Tu-2 had a A2A k/d of 0.25
However, the Tu-2 is also often found in a single plane, 'Jabo' role, unlike all other planes except for maybe the Arado. B-25C, Bostons and other medium bombers are much rarer flown in this way. I can't quantify that though, so it's a thing you just have to keep in mind.