Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: mthrockmor on August 09, 2014, 10:00:33 AM
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So Latrobe is gone....he and others will be back IF all the pieces come together.
Hitech is apparently close (2 weeks or so) to releasing their new graphics based AH2. Maybe it is called AH3.
In the mean time, something has to be done about the culture of AH. I've spent the past decade dealing with small organizations and culture. All organizations have culture. Just as all people have character. Some good, some great, most mediocre to horrible. The culture of AH has become arcadish, which is likely the most positive description of it. Evidence of that is whenever these threads show up we have a healthy dose of veterans who say nothing can be done, or its always been like this, or it doesn't matter, yada yada yada. Those are the voices of failed organizations, which I've walked through the halls of over the past decade.
Top notch organizations speak and act differently.
The challenge here is we are a grabastic organization. In fact, we are a random gathering of varied interests with some version of why we play this game. It makes the cultural shift challenge even greater. Yet, we've got to find a way. Imagine, the new graphics thing comes out, HiTech gets serious about marketing ( :pray) and we have a flood of new sticks. What will they see? Nearly flawless screen images of PonyDs zooming back and forth in their ack?! Bomb and bail Lancs?! Ho shot after ho shot?!
Long gone is the honor of being able to drag a pursuing fighter out of a "horde" to have a 1 v 1, and everyone would let it happen!!! I don't know how many times that happened!! And I can't remember the last time I've been able to do that!! Do you remember Titanic Tuesday?! Or, organized missions that would attract 20-30 birds?! It can be done, and needs to be done with the launch of the new graphics.
Two things need to happen. As HiTech finalizes the graphic modification they need to get serious about some changes that may facilitate a better environment. Some great ideas have floated around, that MAY work. They need to be tested. The sideswitch timeframe, possibly going to two countries, perks for joining a mission that captures a base, adding small convoys of Liberty ships to attack and defend, etc. This is on HiTech and right now would be a great time to test drive some of these. Example, roll out one map that has only two countries. I know this was done 10 years ago, though much has changed since then. Change the sideswitch, see what happens. Ideas about two-weekers, etc. Perks for joining missions.
The second thing that needs to happen is cultural change among the pilots. The ideal is stronger squad actions. Sticks should be incentivized to participate in squads. And yes, a fine line between squad and horde, though clear difference. Ideas like Titanic Tuesday, etc. Integrity matters, and right now it is the culture of arcade and whine.
With the second action, I would suggest a room for squad leaders, or interested parties to begin brainstorming, planning and seeing what can or should be done. And for HiTech to listen.
Boo
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Very well said, I joined the game about a year ago, this fall will be one year, and I do just about everything in here. I furball when nothing else is going on with my squad, I LOVE fighting the horde, I have flown almost 2 hour escort missions, 3 hour bomber missions, and every now and then I'll GV. I can land 5 kills in just about anything, with the exception of 109s, and think of myself as a decent pilot, and no more. In the short time I have been playing, I have seen a drastic decrees in player skill. Allmost all I see in the MA consists of HOing and running LAs, spit 16s and BnZing Ponys. I personally fly the Mossie 6, P51s, P47, F6F, F4U-1, and the spit and hurri 1. Most of the planes I fly can't catch most of the easier planes to fly that inhabit the MA, and if I were to start flying said easier flying , I feel I sink to that level. I only take HO shots when I'm out numbered and in my mossie, or fighting a zeke, ki43, or a brew. Most of my MA 1v1s take place off peak hours, and have meet some very honorable enemys. Have been in a 5v1 with 4 of the other bish staying out so one of them could 1v1 me. That said, 1v1s make up about say... 10% of my fights. The rest I'm out numbered, they are outnumbered :( or it's a many v many fight. If I run out of ammo or fuel during a fight, I will sometimes pull up to the enemy AC, rock my wings in <S> and pull away, often resulting in them breaking after me and trying to kill me... :( I have even flown escort for enemy buffs, and there are a few screen shots of me doing so. I guess I'm just part of a dieing breed in the game who believes on honor... :salute
EDIT: I've also asked a few guys from the knights who a few guys I've fought are, since both us survived and I wanted to give them a big <S>. One of the few resons I stick around are some realy good fights I've had, a recent one that comes to mind was my F6F v Jeep00's F4U-1A, where we both wound up being critically damaged, but I wasn't able to pull out of a split S due to my damage :(
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The moral of the above story is that most players coming in, and staying only care about wining the fight and landing kills by any means possible, wether that be HOing, ramming, picking, ganging, vulching, running, ack hugging, stick suturing, ect. But hopfully there will alway be ones that believe in honor in a cartoon plane game. :salute :airplane: :aok
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Coalcat1, I am totally on board with you, the idea of chivalry in the skies of Aces High is just that now a days, just an idea. There are very few pilots who are chivalrous and and would gladly die to those pilots if I can't get them first simply because they won't chase you down if you out of ammo or fuel just to kill you. +1
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Thanks, boo, for a great post. Unfortunately, I've been more of a complainer than a builder lately, and as of now, I resolve to correct that. I think the ideas you suggest are good, and we all can work with them, no matter our playing style. Thanks again :salute
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So Latrobe is gone....he and others will be back IF all the pieces come together.
Hitech is apparently close (2 weeks or so) to releasing their new graphics based AH2. Maybe it is called AH3.
In the mean time, something has to be done about the culture of AH. I've spent the past decade dealing with small organizations and culture. All organizations have culture. Just as all people have character. Some good, some great, most mediocre to horrible. The culture of AH has become arcadish, which is likely the most positive description of it. Evidence of that is whenever these threads show up we have a healthy dose of veterans who say nothing can be done, or its always been like this, or it doesn't matter, yada yada yada. Those are the voices of failed organizations, which I've walked through the halls of over the past decade.
Top notch organizations speak and act differently.
The challenge here is we are a grabastic organization. In fact, we are a random gathering of varied interests with some version of why we play this game. It makes the cultural shift challenge even greater. Yet, we've got to find a way. Imagine, the new graphics thing comes out, HiTech gets serious about marketing ( :pray) and we have a flood of new sticks. What will they see? Nearly flawless screen images of PonyDs zooming back and forth in their ack?! Bomb and bail Lancs?! Ho shot after ho shot?!
Long gone is the honor of being able to drag a pursuing fighter out of a "horde" to have a 1 v 1, and everyone would let it happen!!! I don't know how many times that happened!! And I can't remember the last time I've been able to do that!! Do you remember Titanic Tuesday?! Or, organized missions that would attract 20-30 birds?! It can be done, and needs to be done with the launch of the new graphics.
Two things need to happen. As HiTech finalizes the graphic modification they need to get serious about some changes that may facilitate a better environment. Some great ideas have floated around, that MAY work. They need to be tested. The sideswitch timeframe, possibly going to two countries, perks for joining a mission that captures a base, adding small convoys of Liberty ships to attack and defend, etc. This is on HiTech and right now would be a great time to test drive some of these. Example, roll out one map that has only two countries. I know this was done 10 years ago, though much has changed since then. Change the sideswitch, see what happens. Ideas about two-weekers, etc. Perks for joining missions.
The second thing that needs to happen is cultural change among the pilots. The ideal is stronger squad actions. Sticks should be incentivized to participate in squads. And yes, a fine line between squad and horde, though clear difference. Ideas like Titanic Tuesday, etc. Integrity matters, and right now it is the culture of arcade and whine.
With the second action, I would suggest a room for squad leaders, or interested parties to begin brainstorming, planning and seeing what can or should be done. And for HiTech to listen.
Boo
Please don't start rumors like that. They are just now looking for people for Alpha testing. If all goes well, maybe a month, the same for Beta testing. Then a few weeks to a month for the final tweaks before the release. I would be VERY surprised if we saw the update by Christmas.
As for the "tests" you suggest, I doubt very much if you see them. HTC has a pretty good handle on THEIR product and have run these tests before. The 12 hour switch time has been explained in detail why it won't change, as well as night time and numbers of countries.
What they COULD change is game mechanics. Everyone plays this game for one goal. What that goal is may be different between one player or the next but what HTC could do is change HOW you attain these goals. If you want to effect change in the scoreboarders, maybe make points for fighting more important and hiding in a horde and being detrimental to a good score. For base grabbers, make it easier to capture a base with less players and harder with more. This way hordes will be less frequent and many smaller attacks along a front more frequent.
First HTC has to admit they need a change, then you will see some different game play options, but until they believe they need change you won't see anything.
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Fugitive, this is classic failure.
This game is driving into the gutter and your answer is so typical, 'everything is fine and by the way they are smarter than everyone else.'
We are losing players in droves, with a smattering of new players, who are being introduced into a failed culture. Having been in a position to watch literally dozens of firms and organizations fail and close their doors over the past 20 years....there they go again.
Great organizations take a completely different approach than what HiTech is. We'll see if they can pull this out of the hopper. They seem to think that a new paint job will fix the bleed. It is far, far more than new graphics. But by all means, repeat yourself, ad nausea. HiTech and their lackeys have been saying the same thing for quite some time now. All I can think is Yogi Berra, this is "dejavu, all over again." But maybe, to your point, this time is different.
As for HiTech knowing their business better than anyone else. C-L-A-S-S-I-C hubris right before. How many times have I sat down in a board room, or gone for a walk with an ED, reality having just hit that they are dead on their feet, and weeks away from shuttering with zero options, realizing they were wrong and had blown off sound advice for quite some time, but now it was too late.
So HiTech, knowing their business better than anyone else, the "plan" was to intentionally lose half of their clients? Hhmmmm, so I'm running a burger shop and it makes sense to dump half my clients, call myself Dorothy and go on vacation. I've not been fortunate to have ever been around a firm that had too much business. I know it happens, but not been around it. So maybe this has been the plan all along, drive half the sticks away....the clouds parted, I get it now.
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And for HiTech to listen.
First HTC has to admit they need a change, then you will see some different game play options, but until they believe they need change you won't see anything
And there you have it. Those two things just are not happening...and if anyone thinks cute cottages and shiny water are the answer to saving this game...well...enjoy your delusions.
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Long gone is the honor of being able to drag a pursuing fighter out of a "horde" to have a 1 v 1, and everyone would let it happen!!!
Good post, Boo, and I agree with you on a lot of what you posted. I only take exception to the statement above as it still occurs all the time....you just have to drag them a bit farther away from the horde than you used to. :D
:salute
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I just resubbed a week ago and of all whining thats going on, im still having fun playing :)
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Good post, Boo, and I agree with you on a lot of what you posted. I only take exception to the statement above as it still occurs all the time....you just have to drag them a bit farther away from the horde than you used to. :D
:salute
I havent been able to drag a 1 v 1 for such a long time. I can't remember the last time. You used to be able to do it all the time.
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Fugitive, this is classic failure.
This game is driving into the gutter and your answer is so typical, 'everything is fine and by the way they are smarter than everyone else.'
We are losing players in droves, with a smattering of new players, who are being introduced into a failed culture. Having been in a position to watch literally dozens of firms and organizations fail and close their doors over the past 20 years....there they go again.
Great organizations take a completely different approach than what HiTech is. We'll see if they can pull this out of the hopper. They seem to think that a new paint job will fix the bleed. It is far, far more than new graphics. But by all means, repeat yourself, ad nausea. HiTech and their lackeys have been saying the same thing for quite some time now. All I can think is Yogi Berra, this is "dejavu, all over again." But maybe, to your point, this time is different.
As for HiTech knowing their business better than anyone else. C-L-A-S-S-I-C hubris right before. How many times have I sat down in a board room, or gone for a walk with an ED, reality having just hit that they are dead on their feet, and weeks away from shuttering with zero options, realizing they were wrong and had blown off sound advice for quite some time, but now it was too late.
So HiTech, knowing their business better than anyone else, the "plan" was to intentionally lose half of their clients? Hhmmmm, so I'm running a burger shop and it makes sense to dump half my clients, call myself Dorothy and go on vacation. I've not been fortunate to have ever been around a firm that had too much business. I know it happens, but not been around it. So maybe this has been the plan all along, drive half the sticks away....the clouds parted, I get it now.
+1
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I havent been able to drag a 1 v 1 for such a long time. I can't remember the last time. You used to be able to do it all the time.
They still happen...but agree it's less frequent.
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Fugitive, this is classic failure.
This game is driving into the gutter and your answer is so typical, 'everything is fine and by the way they are smarter than everyone else.'
We are losing players in droves, with a smattering of new players, who are being introduced into a failed culture. Having been in a position to watch literally dozens of firms and organizations fail and close their doors over the past 20 years....there they go again.
Great organizations take a completely different approach than what HiTech is. We'll see if they can pull this out of the hopper. They seem to think that a new paint job will fix the bleed. It is far, far more than new graphics. But by all means, repeat yourself, ad nausea. HiTech and their lackeys have been saying the same thing for quite some time now. All I can think is Yogi Berra, this is "dejavu, all over again." But maybe, to your point, this time is different.
As for HiTech knowing their business better than anyone else. C-L-A-S-S-I-C hubris right before. How many times have I sat down in a board room, or gone for a walk with an ED, reality having just hit that they are dead on their feet, and weeks away from shuttering with zero options, realizing they were wrong and had blown off sound advice for quite some time, but now it was too late.
So HiTech, knowing their business better than anyone else, the "plan" was to intentionally lose half of their clients? Hhmmmm, so I'm running a burger shop and it makes sense to dump half my clients, call myself Dorothy and go on vacation. I've not been fortunate to have ever been around a firm that had too much business. I know it happens, but not been around it. So maybe this has been the plan all along, drive half the sticks away....the clouds parted, I get it now.
Do you know how to read and comprehend what you read? Here, I'll highlight what Im talking about....
Please don't start rumors like that. They are just now looking for people for Alpha testing. If all goes well, maybe a month, the same for Beta testing. Then a few weeks to a month for the final tweaks before the release. I would be VERY surprised if we saw the update by Christmas.
As for the "tests" you suggest, I doubt very much if you see them. HTC has a pretty good handle on THEIR product and have run these tests before. The 12 hour switch time has been explained in detail why it won't change, as well as night time and numbers of countries.
What they COULD change is game mechanics. Everyone plays this game for one goal. What that goal is may be different between one player or the next but what HTC could do is change HOW you attain these goals. If you want to effect change in the scoreboarders, maybe make points for fighting more important and hiding in a horde and being detrimental to a good score. For base grabbers, make it easier to capture a base with less players and harder with more. This way hordes will be less frequent and many smaller attacks along a front more frequent.
First HTC has to admit they need a change, then you will see some different game play options, but until they believe they need change you won't see anything.
I agree that there IS a problem. The suggestions you have put forth have been tested and debated over and over again. Again, UNTIL HTC decides there is an issue nothing will change.
As for HTC knowing whats best, lets see, small company in a small nitch game market and they have lasted over 10 years. I think they know what they are doing.
Should they listen to suggestions? Yup, and they have for years. Many suggestions have made it into the game.
Will the new graphics save the day? I doubt it. It WILL bring in more players just to check it out, but until HTC does something to negate the toxic environment in the arenas and yes even here on the boards they will lose more than players than they keep.
Leading players AWAY from those things that cause poor game play is something HTC will have to look into. Too many people point out issues with declining game play for them to NOT look into it. The posters here are a small percentage of players in this game, but that Im sure that percentage carries over to the main population. At this point we are losing players quicker than we are getting them to sign up. Graphics update will help bring them in faster, but if the toxic atmosphere isn't cleaned up or better game play mechanics they are NOT going to keep them.
But again, it is first up to HTC to admit their is an issue.
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I remember joining during the heady days of AH.
Those days it seemed every type of game play was dynamic. I liked Bombers and flying in Bomber squads. Flying against skilled Bomber hunters. If big furballs were your thing they were all over the place. GV'ing was there but it didnt take up the % of the gameplay it does now. Great Leaders were there on all sides of the ball for spontaneous missions. Regardless of your play style being in or against dozens of warplanes in a mission was exciting.
The Trainer corp was just fantastic. We attracted squeekers by the hundreds. The TA was a happening place.
But at its heart Aces Highs greatest strength was squad life. And the crux of squad life is leadership.
We just dont need a new graphics engine. We need that leadership back. We need the game to be an International game again.
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Just for the sake of discussion, what has changed over time in the game to encourage the organizational behavior described in the OP? I would take the position that what HiTech does, or doesn't do, has nothing to do with the OP's disgust at the quality of fights in the MA. Take HiTech out of any culture discussions. please.
I was around for the original beta and first 2 years. After a break, I came back in 2005.
It seems to me that HiTech spent a number of development cycles to create the situations and circumstances that some players value - like the 1v1 duel. If you step back in the organizational development model to the step called 'environment analysis', we might agree that a pure focus on the main arena is too narrow. HiTech gave us the dueling arena and custom private arenas where the players involved can set the parameters and circumstances of such duels.
Years ago, I wrote in another forum in another game that game designers create a sandbox for us to play in. They even give us toys, like bombers, fighters and tanks to fly and drive around in the sandbox. That's what we pay for, but it is up to us, not the game designers, to determine how we use it. I was pleased see a post from Ink this year that said much the same thing about AH. Rich has stated in this thread that 'every type of game play was dynamic' in the old days. The amount of things that shoot and the large dimensions of the arenas give each of us a lot of latitude about how we approach the game. There's freedom in that. I think the dynamics still exist, but low numbers exaggerate the behaviors we don't agree with.
It's my opinion that this same variability will serve us all well in the long run.
This hit home with me the only time I played War Thunder. It was the very first time I sat in a waiting room waiting for a 'match' to make in a tiny arena with all aircraft at the same altitude. I felt constrained to 'run with the pack'...I couldn't communicate...there wasn't any apparent freedom of movement. To me, this is why the graphics upgrade is important to AH. Also important is the AH pricing model. Your monthly fee provides you with everything you need to be successful in the game. No extras to buy. There's freedom in that aspect as well. I don't think all of our ex-soviet friends have a good feel for freedom yet. They do understand revenue, however. They merely started a generation ahead of AH with regard to graphics. (I am dismissing them for the long haul)
There's some critical questions to be asked when an organizational development model is considered. Questions like:
Why is it important to 'land' kills?
Why is kill/death the most important ratio in the scoring system? (apparently).
Why isn't hit percentage considered a more telling statistic for competency?
Is our culture about being known as the baddest guy in the valley? Or the sneakiest? Or the most prudent?
Do we value teamwork in our approach to game play? How is that measured?
...and there's a whole lot more questions that will help reveal 'who we are' as a community.
I also agree with the high value Rich places on squadron life in Aces High. The honorable squadron is the only reliable repository of our community values. Again, something that HiTech would find impossible to manage and has, rightly, never bothered with it.
So, the OP talked in terms of community core values. What if my core value was to show up to a 1v1 fight with a wing man?
:salute
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Why is kill/death the most important ratio in the scoring system? (apparently).
It is not.
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When was the last time you saw an M16 or an Ostwind in the MA?
The GV war is popular cos the GVers enjoy getting dozens of kills in that monster the Wirblewind and can effectively operate without air cover. Perk the damn thing, just 1 or 2 perks. Maybe we'll actually see other forms of air defence, perhaps an Ostwind or 2, I haven't seen an Ostwind in years, it's like they're an endangered species. Maybe, just maybe, the GVers will start to need fighter cover again. Maybe this'll turn back into a combined arms game, you never know.
Ok, how about please?
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The GV war is popular cos the GVers enjoy getting dozens of kills in that monster the Wirblewind and can effectively operate without air cover.
This is a massive exaggeration. Especially with ords up, there's still no way to "operate without fighter cover". In fact, even with ords down it's not as easy these days as it was back in 2006 when a Tiger rolling to an ords-less airbase had nothing to fear than another Tiger.
Back then the Ostie was much more efficient than today and thus filled almost the same role than the Wirbel does now.
And likewise it's also often forgotten to mention that our Wirbel was much more powerful as well when it was introduced.
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"Years ago, I wrote in another forum in another game that game designers create a sandbox for us to play in. They even give us toys, like bombers, fighters and tanks to fly and drive around in the sandbox. That's what we pay for, but it is up to us, not the game designers, to determine how we use it."
:aok
I would rather live in a van down by a river than live is some structured cubicle outlined by some righteous sects ideal behavior.
:salute
God bless America.
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I agree that we have a wonderful sandbox full of great toys, the problem is most players seem to want to take the path of least resistance to accomplish what ever "goal" is their fancy.
You want to get GV kills you take out a Panther or M18 and find a cozy spot to spawn camp.
You want base captures, you join a horde
You want kills in the air you jump in a pony or D9 or A8 ho, pick and run.
Its like a herd of cattle. Most hang out in this one pasture eating the grass and drinking from the same waterhole and will do so until there is nothing left. They have to be lead to a different pasture.
I think it's time for HTC to think about leading the cows to a different pasture, before they all die off. The players have already shown they they can/won't change on their own. I'm not saying "remove this so they can't do THAT again!" we don't want to chase NatCigg away :noid I just think they should make "better play" more rewarded and bad play not rewarded.
Make small group captures easier and perked, make horde captures harder with no perks. Make squad captures the same as a small group, reward that behavior. Make mega squads hitting the same base hard work and unrewarding.
They can still play in hordes but they just won't get the rewards. Your not taking it away, but your not rewarded for that type of play either. Again, the players decide what is important in their style of play.
I don't care how pretty the terrain looks, people are not going to stay long if they are constantly harassed, or get stuck being the last guy to a base all the time with a full load of ord and nothing to drop it on, or always be vulched trying to defend against 30 guys capping the field. Maybe its time to add the "Top Squad" to the scoresheet at the end of the month. Don't list the top "fighter" squad, or the top "bomber" squad, list only the top all around squad. Generate squad competition, generate squad training so those squads work together to excel at that competition, generate competition between squads to find, train new players into their ranks. Bring back the competition into the game instead of the running around trying to get as many kills as you can.
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There is a lot of potential in this game but this game is on a downward slide.
Air combat has become; learn to HO. The better you HO the better stick you are.
Bullet drop is ridicules. Bullet dispersion is almost non-existent. The idea that you can hit targets 800 yards+ is ludicrous.
The three country idea doesn't work. The majority of two countries are going to go for the weaker third.
ENY should have been done away with a long time ago.
Perks. Most players have tons of perks after playing a few months. Perking a jet 200 perkies doesn't do much. At peak times the MA arena seldom goes much over 300. Add in the number playing GV, not flying and it's difficult to mount effective defenses. And sometimes to find a fight.
Bombing HQ. Too many capture able bases. Some maps are too large.
Dogfighting Bombers. Bombers that out run fighters at altitude. Out turn fighters. Guns that hit targets 1000-1500 yards out.
Certain planes have over generous stats. LA7, YAK 3. Turn rates, stall rates, acceleration rates
Damage model needs work.
Pilot hit needs work. :joystick:
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To my mind I believe HTC works to a very tight budget, and is very disciplined to remain within that budget. This is the main reason for the slow progression of the updates to the game. Alot of work to be done and few hands available.
They should utilize the depth of "free" talent to help with certain aspects of the game, (I am thinking of new planes, but there are other areas) to do the grunt work, and oversee the results to bring it to the standard that they desire. This would free them up to see the "bigger picture" and act accordingly.
I saw recently a post on one persons visit to HTC's offices, and HiTech doing some repetitive task, if my memory of the post is correct, then this is wrong, the boss should be supervising this sort of work.
My 2 cents worth.
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Talk about beating a dead horse
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I know the reason why gameplay in AH has changed since 2002. It's the war. We elder dweebs started out in AW, where there was no war. There was base capture, but there was no war winning that I can recall. To us wb and ah were just a continuation of aw. From our perspective AH is not a war fighting sim it's a dogfighting sim. We came with the mindset inwhich our objective wasn't to win our objective was to get in dogfights. As time passed us old dweebs were gradually suplanted by new dweebs. Without the indoctrination that we had, they have a different perspective. And we cant fault them for it. Why wouldn't they have the perspective that the ma is a war? And why wouldn't their objective be to win? So for the new flight/war sim virgin just coming to AH his priority is going to be to get better at winning the war, not necesarily to get better at dogfighting. If he is in a fighter he is doing air to ground. At any given time in the ma now I bet the majority of fighters in the air are jabos. If you made a mission in the ma today that didnt have some kind of air to ground element in it, a new player would look at it and think, "why".
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This is a massive exaggeration.
Just for interest, how much of an exaggeration is it? What is a Wirbs av K/d ratio v aircraft in the MA? What was an Ostwind's K/d ratio in the MA before being nerfed? How many Wirb sorties compared to M16 / Ostwind sorties were there last tour?
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I really never hear the observation that the broader culture in which Aces High exists is changing. Western culture is or has been increasingly results-focussed and time restricted. This will inevitably announce here too. It's not surprising that a growing percentage use ack to solve their ACM problems, for instance.
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I find that the biggest problem is the subscription system. Quite ironically I have been paying my subscription even though I have been inactive.
The reason? Aces High 2 is not just a game I play. To us younger players, the friends we made here are almost family.
My best friend on this game. Scott (aka 1sum41). Is now a married man in the army. I chat to him all the time, my fiance knows his wife etc.etc. All of that just because of a stupid flight simulator we played as teenagers? No. This game is something else.
It is a community, but a magical one. I am pretty sure lots of people remember my first forays into this game many a year ago. Squeaking shrilly and enthusiastically as I horammed an F6F for vulching me. Or my incoherent high pitched Australian rants on range vox. The squelch button saw liberal use on my gamer ID.
It would be fair to say that many of us grew up WITH this game. Joachim, GhostCDB, Myself, 1sum41, 800nate and the ever infamous NathBDP.
I am 20 now. I was 13 when I started playing this game. The idea of it dying is intolerable to me.
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In the mean time, something has to be done about the culture of AH. I've spent the past decade dealing with small organizations and culture. All organizations have culture. Just as all people have character. Some good, some great, most mediocre to horrible. The culture of AH has become arcadish, which is likely the most positive description of it.
Top notch organizations speak and act differently.
Long gone is the honor of being able to drag a pursuing fighter out of a "horde" to have a 1 v 1, and everyone would let it happen!!!
With the second action, I would suggest a room for squad leaders, or interested parties to begin brainstorming, planning and seeing what can or should be done. And for HiTech to listen.
Boo
dude we arent an organization with a centralized ceo giving commands and having those below him/her follow those commands. and if we ever were to be something like that, I would not play at all. heck most of the guys would not play at all. there are some that couldnt care less about taking a base or winning a war or the strategy part of the game. to some it is all about having a couple of fights, bs with some friends while teasing others on 200.
and I dont really play a lot, but I cannot possibly be the only one in this game that gets or sees other people into 1v1 fights all the time. even in the middle of a furball there's always somebody that will ask not to jump in. I hardly ever see anybody interrupt the fight. ask potsnpans he kept having individual fights the other day with another guy who kept asking us not to jump in. it's all about asking.
as for hitech to listen, oh he does listen. that's why we dont have a 2 country war, it's been tried and 3 country war was found to be better. just like some of the other suggestions you mentioned. tried and proven wrong.
as for giving more perks, dude you can have mine. there's some great sticks that have no problem getting 40 or 50 perks per flight and have zero perks because they lawndart every single 262 or tempest they get their hands on :rofl. but they do it with style :aok.
you want to see an arcadish culture, go play wot or wop or wowp's. then comeback and compare.
semp
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I can see the OP's reasoning and requests for change. Changes HTC has made in the past were to shape behavior of players. Some worked and some did not like any experiment.
There is a wish list forum and General discussion where many have voiced their displeasure over the 12hr rule ect. HTC has looked at those issues and made THIER decision which SOME don't agree with.
Your experience with the cultures of groups is quite right.
Did it not often come down to Leadership?
HTC has shown strong leadership in not letting the a MOB rule this game.
Many of the players who actions some find undesirable are in Squads, where is the leadership?
I think it is human nature to focus on the negative which causes them to forget the good stuff that happens every day in this game. I see and exchange salutes with players every time I play.
I admit some days are tough when a country is being rolled due to a #s imbalance and you feel overwhelmed and frustrated. It's up to you to change tactics to find your fun in the sandbox. :salute
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Fugitive, this is classic failure.
This game is driving into the gutter and your answer is so typical, 'everything is fine and by the way they are smarter than everyone else.'
We are losing players in droves,
omg, i just realized that I volunteer for alpha testing and by the time the new game is realized I maybe the only player left. we losing players in droves... damn that's a lot of players. how many you think? 20, 30 a day? oh wait a minute did you have your exaggeration font on? I havent installed that one yet and I cant tell.
dude, not sure if you can comprehend but hitech doesnt think the game is fine the way it is. neither does skuzzy and I bet neither does the rest of their team. and most of us dont think the game is so cool that no changes are needed.
but mention that the game is going into the gutter, well I got here I think 7 or 8 years ago and I have been hearing the same thing. mostly from the same people who want to be the "hero that saves the game". or who have so much experience that warren buffet wont make a move without consulting them.
sorry but I dont have sarcastic font installed either.
semp
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It is not.
I don't have the answers to the examples I gave as critical questions. With respect, if anyone has those answers, based on your extra efforts with the stats, it's you.
I really never hear the observation that the broader culture in which Aces High exists is changing. Western culture is or has been increasingly results-focussed and time restricted. This will inevitably announce here too. It's not surprising that a growing percentage use ack to solve their ACM problems, for instance.
This is a really good point and it's possible that what we are seeing, in part, is the announcement you mention. However, Flak Bunnies are a reality in every air combat game I've played. When I was a newbie, I got some great advice from an ex-WarBirder, "First learn how to live...then learn learn how to fight". So I understand Flak Bunnies as a phase.
As time passed us old dweebs were gradually suplanted by new dweebs. Without the indoctrination that we had, they have a different perspective. And we cant fault them for it. Why wouldn't they have the perspective that the ma is a war? And why wouldn't their objective be to win? So for the new flight/war sim virgin just coming to AH his priority is going to be to get better at winning the war, not necesarily to get better at dogfighting. If he is in a fighter he is doing air to ground. At any given time in the ma now I bet the majority of fighters in the air are jabos. If you made a mission in the ma today that didnt have some kind of air to ground element in it, a new player would look at it and think, "why".
This is why we ask critical questions in analysis. Risk and reward are prime motivators, as Floob points out. And and this helps answer my original question.
They should utilize the depth of "free" talent to help with certain aspects of the game, (I am thinking of new planes, but there are other areas) to do the grunt work, and oversee the results to bring it to the standard that they desire. This would free them up to see the "bigger picture" and act accordingly.
HiTech, historically, has reached out to the community, discretely, to help move the rock. It is also correct here to acknowledge the craftsmanship of our community of skinners, map makers, and statisticians.
Maybe its time to add the "Top Squad" to the scoresheet at the end of the month. Don't list the top "fighter" squad, or the top "bomber" squad, list only the top all around squad. Generate squad competition, generate squad training so those squads work together to excel at that competition, generate competition between squads to find, train new players into their ranks. Bring back the competition into the game instead of the running around trying to get as many kills as you can.
This is a very interesting idea. It's overdue. We keep statistics for squadrons already. The roll ups and presentation would be the only work, perhaps.
Aces High 2 is not just a game I play. To us younger players, the friends we made here are almost family...
No. This game is something else...
It is a community, but a magical one...
It would be fair to say that many of us grew up WITH this game...
I am 20 now. I was 13 when I started playing this game. The idea of it dying is intolerable to me.
You can't argue with honest emotion can you? You are not alone in your continuous subscription. I pay for mine and my son's. I know there are many others that continue to pay even when their personal circumstances won't allow them to play often.
I can't keep up with this thread! There are too many great points being made here.
Carry on.
:salute
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I find that the biggest problem is the subscription system. Quite ironically I have been paying my subscription even though I have been inactive.
The reason? Aces High 2 is not just a game I play. To us younger players, the friends we made here are almost family.
My best friend on this game. Scott (aka 1sum41). Is now a married man in the army. I chat to him all the time, my fiance knows his wife etc.etc. All of that just because of a stupid flight simulator we played as teenagers? No. This game is something else.
It is a community, but a magical one. I am pretty sure lots of people remember my first forays into this game many a year ago. Squeaking shrilly and enthusiastically as I horammed an F6F for vulching me. Or my incoherent high pitched Australian rants on range vox. The squelch button saw liberal use on my gamer ID.
It would be fair to say that many of us grew up WITH this game. Joachim, GhostCDB, Myself, 1sum41, 800nate and the ever infamous NathBDP.
I am 20 now. I was 13 when I started playing this game. The idea of it dying is intolerable to me.
I miss you Pacman!
I will always remember the times me you and RedBull shared together on those late nights! :noid
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I can see the OP's reasoning and requests for change. Changes HTC has made in the past were to shape behavior of players. Some worked and some did not like any experiment.
There is a wish list forum and General discussion where many have voiced their displeasure over the 12hr rule ect. HTC has looked at those issues and made THIER decision which SOME don't agree with.
Your experience with the cultures of groups is quite right.
Did it not often come down to Leadership?
HTC has shown strong leadership in not letting the a MOB rule this game.
Many of the players who actions some find undesirable are in Squads, where is the leadership?
I think it is human nature to focus on the negative which causes them to forget the good stuff that happens every day in this game. I see and exchange salutes with players every time I play.
I admit some days are tough when a country is being rolled due to a #s imbalance and you feel overwhelmed and frustrated. It's up to you to change tactics to find your fun in the sandbox. :salute
Bingo
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I miss you Pacman!
I will always remember the times me you and RedBull shared together on those late nights! :noid
dude that's kind of private dont you think?
semp
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omg, i just realized that I volunteer for alpha testing and by the time the new game is realized I maybe the only player left. we losing players in droves... damn that's a lot of players. how many you think? 20, 30 a day? oh wait a minute did you have your exaggeration font on? I havent installed that one yet and I cant tell.
dude, not sure if you can comprehend but hitech doesnt think the game is fine the way it is. neither does skuzzy and I bet neither does the rest of their team. and most of us dont think the game is so cool that no changes are needed.
but mention that the game is going into the gutter, well I got here I think 7 or 8 years ago and I have been hearing the same thing. mostly from the same people who want to be the "hero that saves the game". or who have so much experience that warren buffet wont make a move without consulting them.
sorry but I dont have sarcastic font installed either.
semp
+1
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I find that the biggest problem is the subscription system. Quite ironically I have been paying my subscription even though I have been inactive.
The reason? Aces High 2 is not just a game I play. To us younger players, the friends we made here are almost family.
My best friend on this game. Scott (aka 1sum41). Is now a married man in the army. I chat to him all the time, my fiance knows his wife etc.etc. All of that just because of a stupid flight simulator we played as teenagers? No. This game is something else.
It is a community, but a magical one. I am pretty sure lots of people remember my first forays into this game many a year ago. Squeaking shrilly and enthusiastically as I horammed an F6F for vulching me. Or my incoherent high pitched Australian rants on range vox. The squelch button saw liberal use on my gamer ID.
It would be fair to say that many of us grew up WITH this game. Joachim, GhostCDB, Myself, 1sum41, 800nate and the ever infamous NathBDP.
I am 20 now. I was 13 when I started playing this game. The idea of it dying is intolerable to me.
^ This is truth.
I began when i was just turning 16 ('03) Aces High became a piece of my teenage life.
There had never been a time when i believed AH would "die", simply because the thought was foreign to me.
However 11 years later I can see indeed the numbers decline and MA atmosphere deteriorate. It has been described
enough in the previous posts -at length-so i have no need repeat what someone else has wrote quite competently.
If HTC ever goes under and i (we) loose my (our) beloved sand-boxed virtual sky, it would be very much akin to loosing a close friend.
Maybe not everyone would feel so extreme a loss...but as I and other younger players (though im 27 now) have stated, we "grew up" with it.
I pray, HTC takes heed and does something. Shiny new sparkly band-aid will not help a broken neck.
:pray :salute
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dude that's kind of private dont you think?
semp
Hey man....what happens in AH stays in AH. :lol
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omg, i just realized that I volunteer for alpha testing and by the time the new game is realized I maybe the only player left.
When did you last see a squeeker in Aces High? Used to be a flock of those every summer. I think more than two years since I heard one.
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I heard one last night
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When did you last see a squeeker in Aces High? Used to be a flock of those every summer. I think more than two years since I heard one.
:lol
There used to be as many squeeker threads as there were Perk the La7 ones.
Two teenagers walking down the street -
"If a plane crashes in Aces High and no one is online to hear it...does it make a sound?"
"lol man, lol...good one."
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When did you last see a squeeker in Aces High? Used to be a flock of those every summer. I think more than two years since I heard one.
Once the help channel was full of squeekers, not looking for help but using it to chat with each other... not even knowing they were enemies to each other :)
There was a constant parade of squeeker missions... "JOIN MISSUN", mostly consisting of a wild assortment of planes (like Arados escorted by Hurricane I's), with all having their fuel set either at 25% or 100%. And you better not dared to point out some possible problems with that :uhoh
There wasn't even a ton of new players around, but they always seemed to be eager to run (& promote) their own MISSUNZ
Long gone those days are...
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I think there are 4 or 5 of us squeakerz left... :cry but oh well, all are skilled except 1...
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I find that the biggest problem is the subscription system. Quite ironically I have been paying my subscription even though I have been inactive.
The reason? Aces High 2 is not just a game I play. To us younger players, the friends we made here are almost family.
My best friend on this game. Scott (aka 1sum41). Is now a married man in the army. I chat to him all the time, my fiance knows his wife etc.etc. All of that just because of a stupid flight simulator we played as teenagers? No. This game is something else.
It is a community, but a magical one. I am pretty sure lots of people remember my first forays into this game many a year ago. Squeaking shrilly and enthusiastically as I horammed an F6F for vulching me. Or my incoherent high pitched Australian rants on range vox. The squelch button saw liberal use on my gamer ID.
It would be fair to say that many of us grew up WITH this game. Joachim, GhostCDB, Myself, 1sum41, 800nate and the ever infamous NathBDP.
I am 20 now. I was 13 when I started playing this game. The idea of it dying is intolerable to me.
I grew up in the game with B6Pacman as my first sparing partner. The group we group up with in the game couldn't handle us, I guess we were a little better than they were therefore we were never on the same team in the DA. These were the great times, I was 12 when I met B6Pacman, Ruler2, Trinity, etc etc. We even had a squadron full of squeekers! To this day I am only able to speak with Pacman and Ruler and I hate that I can't come in contact with the others that I grew up playing and training with.
A few years after everyone sorta left, I met Spektor and Krupnski. They became really good friends. I don't talk to Spek anymore but I have Krupnski's number and we talk every once in awhile. After them I met DrBone, Joachim, and RedBull all in a KOTH. DrBone saw something in me other "adults" couldn't and he began to train me. I was VERY arrogant and naïve before DrBone got a hold of me. I was a kid and made A LOT of terrible mistakes but Bone guided me in the right direction and he helped me mature not only in-game but in real life. The things he taught me in a VIDEO GAME carried over to real life. Honestly I don't think I would be where I am today if I never met DrBone.
So I agree with Pacman, I don't think its just a game really. I mean sure it is, but the people in-game are real and they have the ability to have POSITIVE or NEGATIVE effects on you. It all depends on how you let the game affect you.
Now I am flying with TripWire, Flyman92, and Poison. Although I am the oldest of us it is the ONLY reason I am still in the game every so often. I am also in Top Gun with people that I have been flying with for a couple years now. I don't think I will "leave" the game for good for a long time, not as long as I have Top Gun/JG52.
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I think there are 4 or 5 of us squeakerz left... :cry but oh well, all are skilled except 1...
The great squeekers of Aces High played in 07-08.
I was apart of the "great squeekers", I still have films from back then.
When did you last see a squeeker in Aces High? Used to be a flock of those every summer. I think more than two years since I heard one.
They are going extinct.
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When did you last see a squeeker in Aces High? Used to be a flock of those every summer. I think more than two years since I heard one.
redbull was on the other night :).
semp
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I remember a lot of dismissive attitudes towards 'squeakers' when I was flying. I never cared for it much. 9 out of 10 of the ones I ran across were just trying to figure things out.
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I don't have the answers to the examples I gave as critical questions. With respect, if anyone has those answers, based on your extra efforts with the stats, it's you.
This is a really good point and it's possible that what we are seeing, in part, is the announcement you mention. However, Flak Bunnies are a reality in every air combat game I've played. When I was a newbie, I got some great advice from an ex-WarBirder, "First learn how to live...then learn learn how to fight". So I understand Flak Bunnies as a phase.
This is why we ask critical questions in analysis. Risk and reward are prime motivators, as Floob points out. And and this helps answer my original question.
HiTech, historically, has reached out to the community, discretely, to help move the rock. It is also correct here to acknowledge the craftsmanship of our community of skinners, map makers, and statisticians.
This is a very interesting idea. It's overdue. We keep statistics for squadrons already. The roll ups and presentation would be the only work, perhaps.
You can't argue with honest emotion can you? You are not alone in your continuous subscription. I pay for mine and my son's. I know there are many others that continue to pay even when their personal circumstances won't allow them to play often.
I can't keep up with this thread! There are too many great points being made here.
Carry on.
:salute
Maybe if the winning of the war had more to do with player kills and less to do with base capture?
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You guys who started playing the game when you were 13, what brought you to the game? Was it an ad on TV, a web search, or what?
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On topic, though, here are some things that I think would be of benefit.
1. Get around large maps for less people in far off-peak hours. Far off peak, density of players isn't high, and people can log out for lack of action, making a negative feedback loop. Best, I think, would be an active area that is somehow adjusted by number of players. A manual version of it could maybe be smaller maps during off peak. This sort of change would not be easy, though.
2. We talked about shorter change-country times, and folks understand that reducing it leads to more imbalance not less. However, what about always allowing people to change to a country that has fewer people?
3. Somehow get the players who are jerks to behave themselves. They drive people away, perhaps especially new people. They aren't a large percentage of the player base, fortunately, but they have an outsized negative impact. I'm not sure what specifically to suggest here, though.
4. Spread the word more -- but how? Advertising is expensive, and I'm sure HTC has looked at what the rate of return is on different sorts of ads. So, unfortunately again, I'm not sure what specifically to suggest. What I do is work on my own to promote the game -- tell people I meet about it, try to recruit people, maintain a Web site promoting Scenarios. Some folks post vids to Youtube. I don't know if those things are effective at all, but I try them.
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You guys who started playing the game when you were 13, what brought you to the game? Was it an ad on TV, a web search, or what?
I started playing in the MA on an active account in March '12 when I was 13. :lol
7 years before that I discovered the game when I was in 2nd grade in 2007 by TV commercial, and was so fascinated by it I just had to play! I played on and off on 2 week trials in the DA...though when I didn't have a trial going or couldn't get one going I played offline for the most part..which is why I would uninstall that game every year...and take a year's break or two.
This March coming would be my 3 year mark through playing.
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You guys who started playing the game when you were 13, what brought you to the game? Was it an ad on TV, a web search, or what?
I started back in 2010. I think I started my two week trial a to year before that, but I seen the add on the history channel, back when they use to show history not the bs they have now. Actually dichotomy was one of the first guys to help me back when I first started. We need more people that want to help the new guy rather then the ones that tell them the old alt f4us trick.
Oh and I was 18 or so when I started still learning new trucks every day. Now 23.
Boomhaur Zombie squad
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On topic, though, here are some things that I think would be of benefit.
1. Get around large maps for less people in far off-peak hours. Far off peak, density of players isn't high, and people can log out for lack of action, making a negative feedback loop. Best, I think, would be an active area that is somehow adjusted by number of players. A manual version of it could maybe be smaller maps during off peak. This sort of change would not be easy, though.
2. We talked about shorter change-country times, and folks understand that reducing it leads to more imbalance not less. However, what about always allowing people to change to a country that has fewer people?
3. Somehow get the players who are jerks to behave themselves. They drive people away, perhaps especially new people. They aren't a large percentage of the player base, fortunately, but they have an outsized negative impact. I'm not sure what specifically to suggest here, though.
4. Spread the word more -- but how? Advertising is expensive, and I'm sure HTC has looked at what the rate of return is on different sorts of ads. So, unfortunately again, I'm not sure what specifically to suggest. What I do is work on my own to promote the game -- tell people I meet about it, try to recruit people, maintain a Web site promoting Scenarios. Some folks post vids to Youtube. I don't know if those things are effective at all, but I try them.
1. Good idea. In the old days (relative) AH used to run with two maps. At a bewitching hour both maps would close and they would go to one, or something like that. Can't remember exact details. They stopped doing this because 100 sticks would log for the night. As I recall it was 5PM Central, or something like that. Your idea has merit, though maybe this happens at 9PM Central. Go to a much smaller map, maybe the next morning it goes back to the previous map right where they left off.
2. The side switch is apparently a very, very touchy subject in Grapevine. More, it speaks to me of HiTechs deft ears to their clients.
3. There are some ideas that would incentivize squads and organized missions. Those elements lead, and provide for better behaviour. It can be done. I remember the answer for everything on 200 was "alt-f4."
4. Marketing is a premium. I'm part of the crowd that learned about this via either the History or Military channel. No marketing, no clients.
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Marketing is a premium. I'm part of the crowd that learned about this via either the History or Military channel. No marketing, no clients.
Myself also had seen the ad on History Channel in 2003 or there about. I know it's not cheap to advertise on TV and HTC might once again need to reach that audience. H2 is another History Channel that seem to stay away from the reality shows and has a lot of military programing. It's not an HD channel so it may be cheaper to advertise there.
:airplane:
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Some good points were mentioned in this thread.
Advertising is crucial .
I believe the model of the game isn't broken, just needs tuning to maintain interest and keep 2- weekers around. For instance, awarding points for joining a successful mission is a great idea. It would attract participants and foster learning. As a newbie in 2097, I learned the most from flying in missions.
The subscription model is predictable. No fear of addicted behavior. Pay your $15.00 and jump in. Simple.
My own business has evolved since 2008. My best defense from competition is to compete with myself, turning out the best product I can make. I have lost volume to cheap competitors, yes. Some clients returned with their lesson learned, some did not.
This game is an excellent product for some clients. Thankfully, it does not appeal to all the dregs out there.
My $.02. :salute
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One more point of my own: does channel 200 need to exist?
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2007. Yeah yeah
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One more point of my own: does channel 200 need to exist?
does it 'need' to? No. But since it does I think Hitech needs to hire some 'moderators' who are willing to monitor it to keep things civil and respectful. I used to immediately detune it when I logged on
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3. Somehow get the players who are jerks to behave themselves. They drive people away, perhaps especially new people. They aren't a large percentage of the player base, fortunately, but they have an outsized negative impact. I'm not sure what specifically to suggest here, though.
I first found AH on the Military Channel in 2008 but do to personal problems wasn't able to online until Dec 2010 (2 week feebie) became a subscriber Jan 2011.
This is the only game I play online.
Ever since I came on there have been posts about losing players/discourging new ones.
I have introduced 3 people to AH, and the reason they did not stay with it is best illustrated by the quote above.
They asked for help and all they got was sarcasm and derision.
They all decided not to stay because of the arrogant xbox/ps jerks that are in the game.
To those players, I ask the question, "is this how you really convince yourselves that you're are so great a player, by mocking new people, just asking questions about the game, and trying to make them look small?"
Did that prove your "superiority" ? You are actually a bunch of losers but don't realize it, you're so caught up in your own egos.
Grow up ! This is a game, most of us come here to escape reality, for a few hours.
But your lives are obivously so shallow and lacking in content, that only by being "an internet game bully" do you prove your existence and your worth (?)
People like you are what is hurting AH.
Are you really proud of yourselves?
That's my $0.02 cents worth.
And I don't care if no one likes my observation. :old
LtngRydr
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And the number 1 reason people quit playing online multiplayer games is..
Everyone is a jerk.
Not that they just got bored of it. Not that they just found out it wasn't their cup of tea to begin with. Not that they have to justify paying for it. Or in this case justify not paying for it anymore. It's like when Latrobe quit, everyone's like "oh he quit because ah sucks and ah players suck etc." No. He quit because he played the same video game every damn day for seven years! For god's sake think about it, is somebody really going to quit doing what they enjoy because of what is in the text buffer or what is in the forums? Does that make sense to you? If you honest to goodness can't bear to play this game because of what some butt hole says in the text buffer or on the forum, then I think it's time to consider going to the doctor and getting a prescription for happy pills because it sounds like you may have emotional issues.
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I first found AH on the Military Channel in 2008 but do to personal problems wasn't able to online until Dec 2010 (2 week feebie) became a subscriber Jan 2011.
This is the only game I play online.
Ever since I came on there have been posts about losing players/discourging new ones.
I have introduced 3 people to AH, and the reason they did not stay with it is best illustrated by the quote above.
They asked for help and all they got was sarcasm and derision.
They all decided not to stay because of the arrogant xbox/ps jerks that are in the game.
To those players, I ask the question, "is this how you really convince yourselves that you're are so great a player, by mocking new people, just asking questions about the game, and trying to make them look small?"
Did that prove your "superiority" ? You are actually a bunch of losers but don't realize it, you're so caught up in your own egos.
Grow up ! This is a game, most of us come here to escape reality, for a few hours.
But your lives are obivously so shallow and lacking in content, that only by being "an internet game bully" do you prove your existence and your worth (?)
People like you are what is hurting AH.
Are you really proud of yourselves?
That's my $0.02 cents worth.
And I don't care if no one likes my observation. :old
LtngRydr
I agree with you 100% My list of squelches is getting pretty long, but as soon as one of these idiots start running at the mouth I squelch them. Are they pushing the rules enough to be reported? I don't know, I just know I don't want to be bothered by them. I could report them everytime they start running off but then Skuzzy has to wade through all that crap and decide if it is worthy of action or not and he has better things to do.
I know the MODS are not on all the time, and I know they are going to let some stuff slide because we all are different ideas on what is over the line or not, but the harassment must stop and I think a MOD should be all over that.
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The great squeekers of Aces High played in 07-08.
I was apart of the "great squeekers", I still have films from back then.
They are going extinct.
Agreed they are/were a great bunch. Even better seeing/ hearing what they have become thru the years. A great group to be sure :aok :salute