Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Citabria on September 12, 2014, 10:12:53 AM
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point of view should swivel in about a half foot orbit to automatically look around the headrest.
a single point in space upon which the point of view swivels if not snapping to saved snap views puts track ir at a huge realism and situational awareness disadvantage to the much faster and tactically advantageous but unrealistic instant snap view system.
it should be fluid and mimic real head movements and not spaz around the cockpit to preset snap views or cause neck spasms from the player contorting to get the point of view where it would naturally be just by looking around in the real world.
am i saying this in simple enough terms? put the point of view in an orbit and make it move like the human eyeball its supposed to simulate is attached to a skull that's attached to a neck that pivots to accommodate looking side to side up and down and behind?
new terrain system is awesome btw but do i really have to go back to using the immersion breaking snap view system to look around at it still?
oh fester you didnt set up your track ir profile right you dont know sht... your missing the point of what im asking for and why.
make it simple make it intuitive with code that mimics something approximating a human skeletal structure.
so much physics so much effort under the aircraft hood in the name of authenticity. is there none to spare to add some structure and limitations to where the human body can place its eyeballs point of view inside a confined cockpit space realistically and add that space in a 3d wireframe boundry map that would facilitate intuitive realistic track ir movements and reduce the unrealism of a lot of the saved snap views?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2KLyBapfTc
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Well, if you're having that much trouble your profile isn't set up correctly for you. ;)
But your point about the moving like a head moves as opposed to around a central point is a good one. I am not entirely sure the game is the one that should be doing that though. All the game has to react to is the inputs from the trackIR. It doesn't know how your curves are set up, how little or much motion you want a certain movement to be.
I'd say your request should be directed at NaturalPoint more than the game manufacturers. The way the device interprets certain head movements and sends that info to the game is where it should be fixed, it seems to me.
Limiting the ability to turn the head in the cockpit sounds swell. Except for the fact that we have no peripheral vision in game and about the best rear view you could get if you limited the facing of your point of view to how far a person can twist their neck while strapped to a seat would be about 4/8 o'clock.
The whole linda blair thing is a necessary evil.
Wiley.
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no its not a track ir problem its a systemic system based realism problem caused by generous limitations of where you can instantly put a virtual eyeball within the confined cockpit space with the only limitation being that space and no account given to the human body occupying that space with either snap views instant views or track ir.
track ir is a realism increase but a big combat effectiveness handicap vs an instant view setup and that is the facts of the current view system simply because the saved view system is extremely and unrealistically generous in where it allows you to cherry pick your point of view to remove the maximum number of obstacles regardless of how unlikely a human pilot flying the plane would be able to move their eyeball to every perfect no obstruction cockpit view spot.
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Citabria, are you saying you give a tactical advantage to the standard hat switch view setup over trackir because of the speed of a view change?
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track ir is a realism increase but a big combat effectiveness handicap vs an instant view setup
Agreed with the rest of this paragraph because it applies to both, but on this you're flat out wrong. There is one thing I cannot do easily with trackIR. The way I have mine set up, I cannot get to the absolute optimal six view in an F6f. Other than that, I can see everywhere outside of any other plane just as well as with saved settings, and keep track of what the bandit is doing a lot easier than snap views.
Wiley.
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track ir is a realism increase but a big combat effectiveness handicap vs an instant view setup and that is the facts of the current view system simply because the saved view system is extremely and unrealistically generous in where it allows you to cherry pick your point of view to remove the maximum number of obstacles regardless of how unlikely a human pilot flying the plane would be able to move their eyeball to every perfect no obstruction cockpit view spot.
I actually agree with this statement, but I won't go back to the hat switch. :)
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If you were using the 6 axis TIR, then it would be moving your view point as you turn.
HiTech
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If you were using the 6 axis TIR, then it would be moving your view point as you turn.
HiTech
At the risk of poking the bear, the one point he's making is pretty valid. The way it works now is like the camera is on a tripod, and however you move in the 6DOF space, the POV is directly centered on the mount of the tripod as it moves, right?
Is it within your control to interpret the head movements as though the tripod mount pivot point is actually at the spot where your neck joins your skull and pivots, but the POV location is actually where your eyes would be a couple inches up and forward of the pivot point as opposed to centered right on the pivot point?
So basically if you go from looking dead ahead to looking straight down, the POV would move forward and down in an arc as the ingame guy's neck bends forward, instead of rotating in place around the guy's eyeballs.
Wiley.
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Wiley I doubt your neck swivels like a tripod to look behind you. You should notice other movement. The fact that the led clip is on one side of your head is a little odd though. I have good views with TIR but I agree with the OP that snap views are quicker while TIR is more fun.
As long as we look forward at the monitor for the rear view it will never be the same as looking behind us but any neck strain suggests that the side to side axis needs scaling.
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At the risk of poking the bear, the one point he's making is pretty valid. The way it works now is like the camera is on a tripod, and however you move in the 6DOF space, the POV is directly centered on the mount of the tripod as it moves, right?
His point is not valid,(The idea is correct that in real life your eyes transposes with head rotation). But they do not simply pivot with your neck. Do a simple test, look back on your chair, you will notice you will also lean with the turn and hence the movement is not simply a neck pivot. How much you want the game to lean is completely configurable.
The way it works now is you can have your head move any where you want with a simple turn of your head when using 3 dof. I can already hear the out cry if it was changed because now to look at the edge of the back view people would have to turn and the also pan over with the arrow keys.
With 6 Deg it already will transpose your head depending on where you put the targets. So adding predefined movement to that would cause other issues such as both the game moving the head and the track Ir moving the head in conflict.
HiTech
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With track ir my head does swivel to look around the headrest, but only if I uncheck Y axis. Why the y axis makes a difference with that I have no idea.
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His point is not valid...
HiTech
sigh
I was taught by drex how to use the instant hat view system for max lethality a long time ago. I can keep sa on everything in a dogfight with instant snap views and instantly move to any position within the 3d space of the cockpit with instant saved views.
this was great for a decade but now track ir comes along with its increased immersion. I have learned how to use it to maximum lethality and advantage in other games but I find AH track ir to be at a disadvantage vs instant saved snap views.
I find the combining of instant saved views and track ir rotation totally unacceptable and an immersion breaker due to its unrealistic jerky nature as it moves from saved view angle to next saved view angle.
I am not articulating what i am asking for either it seems no one is understanding.
I am asking for an invisible 3d wireframe that is an aproximation of the normal range of motion of where a pilot can lean and turn his head and look around to with maximum and minimum limits.
what does this mean?
I guess I am going to have to draw a picture of what I mean since no one is getting it.
(http://cnx.org/resources/35024deb52596640caf2631b3c2da081/Figure_38_03_07.jpg)
im asking for the box view limit to be refined into a skeletal human range of motion that included torso leaning and neck movement and head turning to decide the minimum and maximum limits of all view systems in ah from instant snap to track ir to panning.
the results would be a somewhat 3/4 globe shaped hollow sphere that would have limits based on the direction being looked in based on field of view.
an example would be your riding in a race car on a circular track and can only look outside the passenger window... anyone grasping what I'm saying yet and why?
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I think your going to have to show us a video of the problems you perceive in game with TrackIR.
The way I have mine set up all movement is smooth. While my head movement and the game head movement is not 1 to 1 the game head movement mimics my head movement very well. The only limit being the "space" inside the cockpit. Some planes I seem to have more room, other not so much.
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I don't understand the rant, I've used Track IR since it came out and discovered that I'm almost at a total loss when it crapped out that one time, had to overnight a replacement. It works just fine out of the box. when I need to check my 6 , which is often, I turn my head and lean a little and get full 6 views. What's the issue?
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It sounds like he's trying to use saved (f10) snap views with trackir. It does make things jerky, I reset all my views back to default. But I didn't need them anymore anyway with trackir.
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what i am talking about is flying right over your heads and your not even comprehending the point.
this is not a user error suggestion.
just keep on pretending i have no idea what i am talking about and my opinion isnt valid even though i have more time in 1940s vintage combat aircraft than anyone here.
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what i am talking about is flying right over your heads and your not even comprehending the point.
this is not a user error suggestion.
just keep on pretending i have no idea what i am talking about and my opinion isnt valid even though i have more time in 1940s vintage combat aircraft than anyone here.
What do you have time in? :salute
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what i am talking about is flying right over your heads and your not even comprehending the point.
this is not a user error suggestion.
just keep on pretending i have no idea what i am talking about and my opinion isnt valid even though i have more time in 1940s vintage combat aircraft than anyone here.
I get it. You only want the pilot to be able to turn his head the same amount as a guy in a harness. That doesn't take into account the lack of peripheral vision we have in game, which makes it a bad idea.
Wiley.
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See rule 4
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Im not pretending you dont know what youre talking about. I dont know what you are talking about because youre kind of all over the place.
From what i gather with trackir when you try to look to the rear all you see is your head rest so to compensate you are trying to use saved views in combination with trackir which does make trackir jerky. Is this correct?
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Fester,
This request is not to disrespect your purpose but, I wish to understand it.
Can you take a camera with you to one of the 1940's era aircraft and attempt to put together a photo presentation to help us see what you see? I believe Hitech has enough time in at least one ride that he knows but, please help the rest of us if that is possible.
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I am confused. Are you saying that the problem is that snap views give an advantage because they give instant views that you cannot get with track ir and that if you use them in conjunction with track ir it breaks immersion because your view point moves outside of where it can be using track ir? And then further that the views obtainable without track ir should be more restricted than they are now with regard to head position?
With regard to realism, I am not a big video game player so other people may have a different experience but AH 2 is the only flight sim I have used that gives me anything like the feeling that I can look around like I can in a real airplane. I have only used MSFS, MSCFS, IL2, ROF, and X-plane. The reason is that AH2's view system, for me, is simple and intuitive and allows separate key/hat combos and the ability to save changed head positions easily with the F10 key, I feel like I can glance around without thinking about buttons.. I would have to use the other sims I listed again to really explain what the difference is. My memory though is of feeling alternately trapped behind a door pillar or trying to operate a security camera.
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what i am talking about is flying right over your heads and your not even comprehending the point.
this is not a user error suggestion.
just keep on pretending i have no idea what i am talking about and my opinion isnt valid even though i have more time in 1940s vintage combat aircraft than anyone here.
People are trying to understand and help you, no need to become hostile. Your failure to communicate is on you, not us. Some respondents appear to have an understanding of what the issue is, I myself do not.
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yeah who wants realism anyway what was i thinking.
in reality with the current system and the ability to cherry pick best visibility instant snap views ah pretty much has only half a cockpit view.
should stop making cockpits so htc can add more planes quicker just like vehicles and just have the nose wings and tail visible but not even "pretend" we have cockpit canopy bracing or armor plates obstructing our view since they really play no factor in ah anyway.
I’m trying to understand what exactly your issue is? I use my Track IR out of the box with the default profile, I don’t recall ever having any of the issues that you are ranting about. If you have fraps, can you turn it on sit in the hanger and look around save the film and post it on Youtube then post the link in here? Perhaps if we could understand the problem someone might be able to help.
Here is how my Tracker IR works: http://youtu.be/kH7gaOjNjC8
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I use Trackir and got none of ur problems : u should fix your profile.
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Which version of TrackIR does everyone have? That does make a difference.
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Which version of TrackIR does everyone have? That does make a difference.
Track IR V5
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Track IR V5
Same
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TrackIR 4
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Using a properly set up hat swirch you can (IMO) scan the semi sphere quicker than you can with TIR.
Given you have a brain able to translate such a scan to an SA "map" then a properly set up snap viewed hat will give an advantage over the more realistic panned view ( neck muscles permitting) experienced with TIR.
My ageing brain is not good enough to set an SA "map" by rapidly flicking thru the hat views picking up the red icons and their ranges etc. so for me there is no speed advantage to the hat because I cannot transpose the input fast enough.
I do enjoy the smooth tracking of opponents given by TIR. This alone makes it preferable for me.
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point of view should swivel in about a half foot orbit to automatically look around the headrest.
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What are you talking about, Snap View or TrackIR?
a single point in space upon which the point of view swivels if not snapping to saved snap views puts track ir at a huge realism and situational awareness disadvantage to the much faster and tactically advantageous but unrealistic instant snap view system.
Why don’t you try Tracker IR without the Saved Snap Views . you may find that you like it.
it should be fluid and mimic real head movements and not spaz around the cockpit to preset snap views or cause neck spasms from the player contorting to get the point of view where it would naturally be just by looking around in the real world.
[/quote
Again what are you talking about, Snap views or Tracker IR? What do you mean by “it”?
am i saying this in simple enough terms? put the point of view in an orbit and make it move like the human eyeball its supposed to simulate is attached to a skull that's attached to a neck that pivots to accommodate looking side to side up and down and behind?
No, you are not saying this in simple enough terms. My Tracker IR with default profile out of the box does exactly what you are asking for.
new terrain system is awesome btw but do i really have to go back to using the immersion breaking snap view system to look around at it still?
I don’t see why, my Tracker IR works fine out of the box.
oh fester you didnt set up your track ir profile right you dont know sht... your missing the point of what im asking for and why.
I know I am missing your point, your all over the place, Tracker IR works fine for me out of the box and presents me with the type of realistic views that you appear to be asking for. The question than comes down to what is it that you see when using your Track IR
make it simple make it intuitive with code that mimics something approximating a human skeletal structure.
so much physics so much effort under the aircraft hood in the name of authenticity. is there none to spare to add some structure and limitations to where the human body can place its eyeballs point of view inside a confined cockpit space realistically and add that space in a 3d wireframe boundry map that would facilitate intuitive realistic track ir movements and reduce the unrealism of a lot of the saved snap views?
Wish granted, Track IR V5 appears to do just that . Now as suggested by several people trying to help you, please film a Track IR session and post that film, perhaps than we will see the problems that you experience.
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I have read POSTS over the years in a similar vein as this one. I would still like to see photos to help illustrate the issues. I'm not sure all of us are talking about what Fester is describing.
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I have TrackIR5 and use the proclip.
I looked at Travelers link and I do the same thing; a slight lean to check my six.
I have all 6 DOF turned on.
Still trying to tweak a better dead zone for targeting.
LtngRydr
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. . . Still trying to tweak a better dead zone for targeting.
LtngRydr
Save your current profile then make a new one but this time slow the speed down with the slider. A slower speed will allow you to have much steeper curves which will allow you to flatten out the middle. Try the speed slider less than one. The slower the speed the steeper the curves. Mine are flat in the middle then go just about straight up.
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thanks for the tip, Randy1, :salute
will give it a go this weekend
LtngRydr
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even though i have more time in 1940s vintage combat aircraft than anyone here.
What do you have time in? :salute
Do you have an answer?
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Do you have an answer?
I think he's able to fly T-6 on a regular basis.
- oldman
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thanks for the tip, Randy1, :salute
will give it a go this weekend
LtngRydr
You are welcome. I hope it works for you. Save each revision so if you loose your way you can go back. The P-38's cockpit glass cage supports really helps to gage what is going on with the view. When I switch to a bubble top plane like the P-47M, it takes time to get use to no reference lines.
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even though i have more time in 1940s vintage combat aircraft than anyone here.
Do you have an answer?
I have 4000 + hours P40, F4U Corsair, B25 Mitchell, TBM Avenger, BT-13 Valiant and of course Piper J3 and J4. I flew for about 25 years for a company that put WWII birds on display at AirShows up and down the East Coast, just about every airshow east of the Mississippi.
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I have 0.75 hours in the Ju-52! :old:
As a passenger ... :bolt:
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Since 1960 I've had some hours in a lot of things passenger and right seat out side of normal civilian fair. Including climbing into the seats of a Spit and Hurricane in England many times at a War memorial my father would stop at on the way home from the London gliding club at Dunstable Downs. The night guardsman was a member of the gliding club.
Tiger Moth
Dragon Rapide
Taylor Craft Auster, Pakistani Air Force J/5 Aiglet
Bobcat
L-5
L-9
T-28
T-34
T-41
O-1
O-2
I don't get the point of worrying about our view system.
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I don't get the point of worrying about our view system.
I don't think the op intended for it to be a worry, Something about the snap views giving a player an advantage against a player using Track IR. (or something like that) I never did totally understand the OP's rant.
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I don't think the op intended for it to be a worry, Something about the snap views giving a player an advantage against a player using Track IR. (or something like that) I never did totally understand the OP's rant.
I read it as two points. That snap views are a competitive advantage over TrackIR and the TrackIR trueview is not sufficiently true.
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I use 2-axis mode TrackIR to inherit my hps file views. Essentially I'm using TrackIR as mouse pan.
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I read it as two points. That snap views are a competitive advantage over TrackIR and the TrackIR trueview is not sufficiently true.
Well, we will never know as it appears that the OP has left the discussion and decided not to post pics of what he was seeing. I also disagree with snap views being an advantage over TRackIR views, the Track IR views I see, out of the box with the default profile, are fluid, just as they are in real live, as you turn your head your point of view changes. With a AH Snap view, your point of view is always the center of the screen and you must now scan for the object of interest. With TrackIR my object of interest is centered in my point of view. Just as in real life, I'm forced to look around to see other targets.
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Well, we will never know as it appears that the OP has left the discussion and decided not to post pics of what he was seeing. I also disagree with snap views being an advantage over TRackIR views, the Track IR views I see, out of the box with the default profile, are fluid, just as they are in real live, as you turn your head your point of view changes. With a AH Snap view, your point of view is always the center of the screen and you must now scan for the object of interest. With TrackIR my object of interest is centered in my point of view. Just as in real life, I'm forced to look around to see other targets.
I know when I went from snap views to TIR, it changed my level of awareness from "The con is in this location" to "The con is in this location, and this is what he's doing/how he's moving." It made an enormous difference to my SA. YMMV, and many peoples' apparently does.
Wiley.
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I wanted to see pictures in case I was mistaken. I've been in quite a few airplanes in 58 years.
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:bhead