Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: ghi on October 09, 2014, 01:39:04 PM
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---and keep falling,90 minutes more ; did Ebola hit the Wall Street casino ? : :(
http://www.marketwatch.com/
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Get to the bunkers... I think this is it. :O
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I had pie for tea :old:
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Nothing shocks me anymore. We are prepared in this house.
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I had pie for tea :old:
What a coicidence. I had tea for pie.
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Its a sign :cry
Whats is DOW?.
Is it the same as North Korea and Ebola?
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DOW minus 329 points-Still a recession ?!
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DOW minus 329 points-Still a recession ?!
You'd think selling off their stock in Google and Facebook would be somewhat offset by their hording of ammunition and rations. Are there no publically owned ammunition and survival ration companies out there?
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IN before the lock....This correction was predicted recently. The market fluctuates. Those who only expect gains, or thing some profit taking means doom shouldn't be in it.
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I don't think so. I think it was inevitable hiccup. We have been running a bullish market for the last few years. Now is the time to maybe slowly buy into the market. Should be able to get decent profits.
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I don't think so. I think it was inevitable hiccup. We have been running a bullish market for the last few years. Now is the time to maybe slowly buy into the market. Should be able to get decent profits.
Don't listen to Peters. Panicsell. Panic and sell. Its the right thing to do. (Lifts receiver) Charles? Get ready to buy across the board.
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Don't listen to Peters. Panicsell. Panic and sell. Its the right thing to do. (Lifts receiver) Charles? Get ready to buy across the board.
So you started the sell off.....
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So you started the sell off.....
Yes, thats it. You should, too. You should more. :D
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I only care about oil price and is down 2.9$ , I paid 3.40$/gal for diesel and gas was below 3$ through Missouri this morning, hopefully people have more $$ left to repopulate Main Arena :rock
I was reading about the Chinese economy overpasses US for first time;
http://www.businessinsider.com/china-overtakes-us-as-worlds-largest-economy-2014-10
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The yanks are exporting oil again :)
Think about it :rofl
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My opinion.
There is an enormous bubble in bond prices (clearly, since bond yields are near zero, and bond price moves as the inverse of the yield) and a smaller bubble in stock prices (as judged by metrics like the Shiller PE). However, the Fed is still printing enormous amounts of money. Eventually bubbles burst, but they can inflate for a while. The bubbles could burst when the Fed starts raising interest rates or a while after that. Or, because people anticipate that things will crash when the Fed does that, it could happen before the Fed does that. Or other world events could trigger it.
I've been an active investor since about 1990, and helped to found a hedge fund in the mid 1990's (so worked that way in the finance industry -- we even managed some Soros money at one point). Since 2008, I have never felt so unsure of where markets are headed or what is a good investment.
Today, there is a war going on between inflation and deflation. Since these are opposites, what works well for investing under one condition is poor in the other, and vice versa. If bad deflation happens, the best investment is cash. If bad inflation happens, the best investment is gold or commodities. Prior to bad inflation or deflation, because of money printing and ultra-low interest rates, bonds and the stock market have been by far the best investments with cash and gold being bad.
People understand the risk of inflation. If there are x dollars in existence, and the Fed doubles that to 2x (which is what it has done since 2008), it's easy to see that prices could go up by a factor of 2.
How can there be a risk of deflation with the Fed printing money like crazy? It can happen when that printed money just doesn't get out and circulating into the general economy.
Both of these things are what is going on. The Fed is printing like crazy, but that money isn't completely making it into the general economy. Whichever one wins, inflation or deflation, it will be horrible for our economy. I fear that the next 15 years are going to be very bad unless the Fed pulls off a miracle on reeling back in the enormous money printing.
However, usually the Fed reacts to a crisis by printing/lowering rates, keeping rates too low too long, fueling another bubble, belatedly moving in the opposite direction, which helps trigger the bursting of the bubble, creating a crisis, to which it reacts by . . . [repeat loop indefinitely]. This has at least been the recent history:
1997-1998: Asian financial crisis, Russian financial crisis, and resultant collapse of Long Term Capital Management prompts Fed to provide a large amount of liquidity and keep interest rates lower than they otherwise probably should have been. That money finds a home in the Nasdaq, helping (along with other factors) to inflate an enormous bubble there. Fed sees this and belatedly starts creeping up interest rates, which helps to burst the bubble.
2000: Nasdaq bubble bursts, causing the worst drawdown on a major US financial index since the Great Depression, causing havoc in the economy. The Fed reacts by taking interest rates drastically lower and keeping them there for several years. This (along with other important factors) helps create an enormous bubble in real estate and mortgage-backed securities. The Fed sees this and keeps moving up interest rates, which helps to burst the bubble.
2007-2008: Real estate and mortgage securities bubble bursts, causing a meltdown of our (and the world's economy), much worse than 2000 crash. The Fed slams interest rates to zero, prints a new 1.4 trillion dollars, and the US government spends over $5 trillion on a bunch of stuff that had no long-term benefit to the economy. The Fed keeps these rates at zero for the next *SIX YEARS* . . . and counting . . .
My feeling is I've seen the next step in this story several times before. Maybe I'll be wrong this time -- Nobelist Paul Krugman and other Keynsians would say I'm wrong. But I've got this horrible feeling that it's going to happen and be much worse than the 2008 crash. I worry about this situation nearly every day.
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Yeah well....
First, the Fed doesn't print money. Not to reduce rates, inject liquidity, or simply to have some walking around zort. Money gets printed (BP&E) when the money supply requires. Look up "fractional reserve". It's become a metaphor for debt manipulation. Only peripherally related.
QE does put pressure on yields and provides incentive to spend elsewhere if R.O.C. is an issue. It also reduces cash reserves normally held for other exigencies which we hope can be avoided by the time tested strategy of faith and denial with a bit of shell game thrown in for plausibility's sake. Bottom line is the stock market has become the venue of choice for so many investment modalities that there's just not enough real equity to go around. A bit of slip is to be expected. 1 or 2% after a similar bullish session just indicates mild volatility. Which in itself can be a good thing depending on the "why's". And if you didn't question how it got to 17k+ in the first place you probably got no business worrying about yesterday.
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So brooke US is exporting oil again :)
What inpact is it going to have on the US and the DOW
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If bad deflation happens, the best investment is cash.
I've been investing in Land, Cows, Chickens, Hogs, Seeds, Guns, and Ammunition. Laugh it up suckers, laugh it up! :banana:
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See Rules #4, #14
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Yeah well....
First, the Fed doesn't
I'm speaking colloquially for brevity, of course. When I wrote my post, I briefly contemplated adding 2 or 3x the length to be technically correct on all of the Fed verbiage that, while obfuscatory to my explanation, would allow me to avoid a clever clogs response.
I (and the majority of the investment industry) very commonly use the phrase "Fed prints money" as shorthand for what the Fed does that ends up increasing monetary base.
And, yes, the Fed does what it does at times "to reduce rates, inject liquidity, or simply to have some walking around zort".
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So brooke US is exporting oil again :)
What inpact is it going to have on the US and the DOW
The US exporting oil is good, but not good enough to alleviate my worry. It would be even better if US companies were allowed to export more liquefied natural gas (since the US could do an enormous amount of that, helping the American economy and helping foreign consumers of LNG, too), but our government has been making that hard to do.
In my view, the US (and many other countries, too) has an enormous debt bubble of the size that, historically, has lead to severe problems. My view on this is highly influenced by the research done by Reinhart and Rogoff in their book "This Time is Different."
Debt bubbles are resolved by default, high inflation (a form of default, really), or growth, or a combination of these. Reinhart and Rogoff go through analyses of how likely it has been in history for nations to grow themselves out of debt bubbles -- it's not never, but depressingly uncommon.
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I've been investing in Land, Cows, Chickens, Hogs, Seeds, Guns, and Ammunition. Laugh it up suckers, laugh it up! :banana:
Do you really have a farm?
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See Rules #4, #14
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It seems that the market dips every october......liquify some assets to pay for the kids education..
The dow falls a couple of points off its record high....and the sky is falling.....
In 2 months... it'll be back up there.
If everybody is wondering why the economy still sucks, maybe you should ask the retards that all went over to china on trade missions.
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My opinion.
There is an enormous bubble in bond ....
Great post. I've printed it out for further contemplation.
In my completely uneducated opinion...
I believe the Fed wants some inflation. It seems to me that the Fed has a much better toolset for managing inflationary pressures rather than deflation. I think they are concerned about inflation, but I think deflation scares the Hell out of them.
I think they want to transform the equation so they can convert a deflationary problem into an inflationary problem, and then they can use their more refined set of tools to manage the inflation.
That, and a little inflation would help to burn off some off the remaining consumer debt.
I personally would prefer to see inflation rather than deflation (within reason ;)).
As far as the currency being made worthless...I just don't see any place better that money is going to go. Whose currency would be the better investment? China? I just don't see it. Even in the height of spending our way out of the crash, we couldn't print bonds fast enough. Where else is that money going to go? We don't have to be a perfect bet. We just have to be better than the alternatives.
$0.02,
Wab
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Think of what The Great Depression led to....
If it happens again....
Russia is looking at us funny and we are looking at them funny
Bunker time
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lol the billionaire investors have been propping up the Dow for years its over inflated and needs to go back down, you can only prop it up for so long.
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I apologize.......It was collateral damage from one of my hype to pump and dump schemes.
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Soros :O
:uhoh
:bolt:
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I know for a fact that the market around my neck of the woods dips right around this time of the year every year. Where I am, the oilfield is the primary market, and large drilling companies cut way back on spending in the last few months of the year, and our business gets slow because they aren't breaking anything. It picks up at the first of the year like clockwork.
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i wonder where all the money comes from to fund this scheme? Is it strongly favored by the wealthy that withdraw as needed on a regular basis? Is it a giant pyramid scheme that every working man blindly dumps his money into being manipulated with by large scale managers with really smart computers whose forcast is interrupted off some delusional freaks action as being risky. :bhead
Im not sure whats going on, humans are weird, but brooke sounds right to me.
:bolt:
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Soros :O
:uhoh
:bolt:
I think of him as a malevolent puppet master.
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Do you really have a farm?
Yep. Small, but yep.
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Think of what The Great Depression led to....
If it happens again....
Russia is looking at us funny and we are looking at them funny
Bunker time
Yes your right
If you give me all your money i will give you 50% more back :old:
Please note your investment may go up or down :old:
You wont need money anyway the end is nigh!
Funny how those rich people before both world wars are still rich :rofl
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LOL looks like nobody took me up on my suggestion.
So again, The Fed does not print money, figuratively or otherwise. Nor does it issue debt. The job of The Federal Reserve is to make our nation a viable economic entity....sorta. Typically a run on gov't debt indicates a lack of confidence in a country's private banking system. This is different. QE's just a shell game. The fact is that the capitol being spent to keep yields low is coming from accounts that really shouldn't be drawn down. ESPECIALLY in a climate of major bank uncertainty as we've seen for the past few. Way beyond Keynesian principles. This is straight out market manipulation and it's potentially real bad news.
Couple more notes:
-We didn't lose our manufacturing base. We gave it away. The only way we'll see it return is if we eliminate OSHA and the EPA then import enough 3rd worlders to man the factories. We sure won't see our kids lining up to apply.
-About everybody with a 401k is guilty of contributing to the equities bubble. I say "about" 'cause there's always that one guy who's 100% into fixed or foriegn. Every stock fund prospectus I've ever read clearly defines how much capitol it will keep in market and on the side and for how long. They HAVE to buy....something. It's in the contract. And I bet not one of us has switched from stock funds to fixed income in the last decade. Even if it is good for America not one of you is gonna pass up all that gravy.
-Bad days are gonna happen. It's the bad WEEKS we need to look out for. For the foreseeable future our economy really is much like a house of cards. A massive, relatively stable house made of pretty solid cards BUT...a big slip might prove to be enough to get it tumbling.
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Yes your right
If you give me all your money i will give you 50% more back :old:
Please note your investment may go up or down :old:
You wont need money anyway the end is nigh!
Funny how those rich people before both world wars are still rich :rofl
Zack, as funny as you try to be there's a ring of truth in what you say! :aok
I dont know about what any of you do but I've made more money in the last 2 years then I have in the previous 6,oh and I dont work for my money,my money works for me! :devil
AS Zack so often says your investment may go up or may go down!
:salute
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Monday they have a bankapocalipse simulation drill, ,; maybe adds some more uncertainty and turns real, the VIX was already high;
They know is coming , I don't believe are training for fun only:
"U.S. and UK to test big bank collapse in joint model run"
Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:23am IST
http://in.mobile.reuters.com/article/idINKCN0I004Q20141011?irpc=932
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If you give me all your money i will give you 50% more back :old:
Zack's method is brilliant and generates 50% dividend return in the first year!
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Yep. Small, but yep.
Cool! For a while, I've been interested in what it takes to create a small farm. Could I talk to you about that sometime?
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I think of him as a malevolent puppet master.
Rgr
He's an interesting person, that is for sure.
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One sheep and a bedroom does not a farm make... Just saying.
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One sheep and a bedroom does not a farm make... Just saying.
Depends. Is it sustainable?
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So again, The Fed does not print money, figuratively or otherwise.
Except that the Fed controls this:
(http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/fredgraph.png?g=Mdb)
And all of these happen to be "Federal Reserve Notes" (as one can clearly see by reading the front):
(http://stephansmithfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Most_Popular_United_States_Federal_Reserve_notes.png)
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Zack, as funny as you try to be there's a ring of truth in what you say! :aok
I dont know about what any of you do but I've made more money in the last 2 years then I have in the previous 6,oh and I dont work for my money,my money works for me! :devil
AS Zack so often says your investment may go up or may go down!
:salute
Capitalist :rofl
Lots of daft people who invest and complain when they lose it :rofl
Guy at work bought 4 houses to refurb and needed a eye operation, he had no money to pay for it :rofl
Do you need a butler Morf?.
Benjemin Franklin on the note looks like he has been shot down by a Brewster :rofl
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Depends. Is it sustainable?
Only if no one tells....
Brooke, thanks for the point of view. I'm in the same boat and pretty concerned about asset allocation with such a large debt burden and regulatory overload etc. I've kept most of my liquid assets in stocks and use trailing stops and occasionally puts to moderate risk but it's overall a difficult time. Where are you with thinking about balancing your overall assets?
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"Except that the Fed controls this:"
Actually, it doesn't. "Maintains", "influences", and "controls" are completely different obligations. If there's one good thing about fractional reserve policy is it don't let the tail wag the dog.
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Does anybody know anything about running a donut shop? Seriously. I have been somewhat assuming that the stock market is being sustained at its current level by easy money and that at some point it won't be. Maybe now maybe not. I know nothing about donuts from the sales side but I can think of a good location and I figure coffee and donuts are a small luxury that people are willing to get no matter the economy.
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Capitalist :rofl
Lots of daft people who invest and complain when they lose it :rofl
Guy at work bought 4 houses to refurb and needed a eye operation, he had no money to pay for it :rofl
Do you need a butler Morf?.
Benjemin Franklin on the note looks like he has been shot down by a Brewster :rofl
Nah Zack I dont need a butler,I have a wife!
:salute
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"Except that the Fed controls this:"
Actually, it doesn't. "Maintains", "influences", and "controls" are completely different obligations. If there's one good thing about fractional reserve policy is it don't let the tail wag the dog.
I see. It depends on what the definition of "is" is for you, eh?
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Only if no one tells....
Brooke, thanks for the point of view. I'm in the same boat and pretty concerned about asset allocation with such a large debt burden and regulatory overload etc. I've kept most of my liquid assets in stocks and use trailing stops and occasionally puts to moderate risk but it's overall a difficult time. Where are you with thinking about balancing your overall assets?
You're welcome.
I'm not sure I'm the best guy to ask for investing advice in the types of markets we've had recently, though. My mix of investments has drastically underperformed the S&P 500. For a while, I've been about 1/3 stocks, 1/3 gold/silver, 1/3 cash, which is a bad choice if the stock market is rocking, gold is declining, and cash gives no interest (i.e., recent history).
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ebola, isil, hell invest in body bags.
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Does anybody know anything about running a donut shop? Seriously. I have been somewhat assuming that the stock market is being sustained at its current level by easy money and that at some point it won't be. Maybe now maybe not. I know nothing about donuts from the sales side but I can think of a good location and I figure coffee and donuts are a small luxury that people are willing to get no matter the economy.
From what I hear, donut shops need something else to bring in customers and make a profit. Just a donut and coffee shop only seem to go out of business rather quickly. Not the big chain stores, but the mom and pop ones
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Cool! For a while, I've been interested in what it takes to create a small farm. Could I talk to you about that sometime?
Sure! Be aware though... it's not a part-time, leisurely kind of thing.
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For a while, I've been interested in what it takes to create a small farm.
(I apologize in advance.)
Well, first you start with a big farm..............
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(I apologize in advance.)
Oh c'mon.... some folks don't mind pig poop on their boots.
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Right now the stocks you should be buying into is anything to do with ebola. Ebola has scared a lot of people. Companies that make medical hazmat suits and some chemical companys at the moment are fairly good.
One other investment option is cyber money. Right now the Bitcoin markets is getting to the point where it might be worth buying in. It has fell from the upper 600 down to mid 300s. Not sure if I would start scaling in a lot but I have scaled in a little.
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(I apologize in advance.)
Well, first you start with a big farm..............
:rofl
That's a good one, and very relevant to me. :aok
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Security products
X ray machines
Bomb detection equipment
Body scanners
Its the future
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Here is my well, uh, young opinion,
The stock market is not what is going to kill our economy, unless massive amounts of money are being withdrawn from the market for no other reason than full out fear. As of now, the market has been doing exceedingly well over the past few years considering trends. But if you ask me, it simply is not our stock market ATM that is causing stagflation.
It is the presidents and CEOs-Boards of companies that will not raise our living wages. This to me is what is causing mass economic turmoil among Americans as a whole. Any business owner who pays their employees in today's age less than $25,000 a year to people over 25 for full time positions should be arrested for slavery.
People in america cannot live anymore because businesses just aren't paying enough. $30,000 a year for a college graduate is horse Crap. People should not be forced to have to live with a roommate because they can't even pay full rent price on a small apartment.
Check this out, $30,000 a year getting paid 2 times a month yields around $990 every 2 weeks after a 24% tax. You will be paying $500 a month in taxes. Now, for a recent graduate they expect you to pay ~300 a month in student loans on a 6% interest. That is $800 you are giving to the government a month for a person in their early 20s. Let's see, Thats 1980 a month -300 That leaves you with 1680 for the rest of the month. A normal still crappy place to live cost around 1200 a month plus $170 for bills. That leaves $310 left for the month. I haven't even factored in food nor gas, insurance, car payment, and fun expenses.
You have kids making that little, good luck.
Now, when you realize that Half of Americans in this country make under $30,000 a year. While many have student loans AND kids, It is kind of easy to see why our country is turning into a crap hole one year after the next. People can't afford to do anything in this country which means they aren't spending money in the economy. People can't afford to do crap because employers won't raise the average living salery to 60,000 a year. Our employers are taking advantage of working class citizens, making us slaves for $30,000 a year working 8-10 hours a day and can't get out of the mentality that we don't live in the 90s anymore.
The worst part is that the corporations don't even trickle extra earnings down to the employees so while big corps are raking in money for their "business" it has done nothing to ecomically benefit our middle and working class folk.
This is why our country is messed up right now. I'm all for capitalism, but when you place responsibility of living standards in the hands of our employers, they are the ones who control the economy as a whole for the rest of the hard working 8-10 5 days a week slavery they make us partake in.
It's no wonder people are losing their minds. We simply can't have fun anymore, and we are scared to death of losing a job because we aren't working hard enough yet we sit here day in and out working for these people and they cant even value their citizens in the work place.
This needs to change or else.
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Here is my well, uh, young opinion,
. . .
I recommend a reading of "Basic Economics," by Thomas Sowell; or if that is too long (as it is a long book) "Economics in One Lesson," by Hazlitt. Both are readable by anyone, and if you read one of them, you will know more about economics than 99.9% of the population.
That will give a very solid foundation for what really moves economies and how they work.
If more people in the world read one or the other of these books, the world would be a better place.
It takes maybe 5-10 hours to read one of those books. I think that everyone should invest 5-10 hours out of their entire lifespans to understand one of the most-important topics to civilization.
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Panic crash on Wall Street :confused:
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People dont care about economics if they did it would end
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Buying opportunity.
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40-50% losses in '07-'08 for some. Some of that some didn't have 6-8 to 10+ yrs to get back to even. When they see a bull market dying, the elderly are wiser to call it sooner than someone who has a longer horizon. Also, they have more $ invested, so drops from them will have greater effect than 40/50 somethings, right now I'm looking at hospital etfs and if they drop some more, I'm in.
What say you?
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People dont care about economics if they did it would end
Manias would perhaps end if people knew of them, but not economics. Economics is in operation whenever people exchange goods or services.
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DOW minus 329 points-Still a recession ?!
I saw a survey and 75% of the people still think we are in a recession.
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I saw a survey and 75% of the people still think we are in a recession.
Technically speaking we are in what is called a "crappy economy" a recession is when the economy experiences negative growth which is more clearly known as shrinking.
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I saw a survey and 75% of the people still think we are in a recession.
What we are experiencing is a hiccup in the market. Kinda like a reassessment of a mortgage.
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I saw a survey and 75% of the people still think we are in a recession.
Funny isn't it, how we are seeing the highest #s our stock market has ever seen, and yet just because it goes down a few notches, like every other cycle on this plannet, people lose their $h!t and blame the president for it. Hahaha. The stock market has had an upward slope since the 1930s. Even when it goes down a bit, it will still be compensated for in the future. The stock market is nothing but a game. It is designed to fund companies through the notion that you have part "ownership" to raise funds for the company.
That's why it's crazy to me that these corps make money not only on the products they sell, but also on their ROI and stock share, how much the percieved worth of the company is to the public. The company could be a huge pump n dump sceme who doesn't even sell a product and you could still make 1000s off them by playing them right in the market when their popularity of name gets flashed in the media (HEMP). The stock market is seriously the best type of "gambling" you can find. I always tell people, if you hate a corporation sooooo badly, invest in their stocks and make money off them hahaha.
Like I said, employers aren't paying people fair wages in this economy, people are forced to take petty jobs with low wages, and if the standard of living goes down because of that it will be a huge problem in society. That is why it seems like we are going down hill although, right now actually our economy is fairly stable and manufacturing has increased over the last 2 years.
The thing is, more and more young people are getting college degrees, that's great, what is not great is the government biting us in the prettythang$ for it. I'm 23, a recent BBA graduate, and first it was tough to even find a "corperate" position. Now I'm an accountant. This company of course takes advantage of me because of age and experience. I get that. It's a great learning experience though. But why the F do I pay 24% in taxes on top of $300 monthly student loans. Does our government really think I can afford this crap, and live my life as an "adult" not living in my parents house anymore when I have to give half my pay check away every month?
When you kill the monetary achievement of success to the masses. They will become irritiable and upset, our society will form into medicracy and half wit workers who don't care. Companies take all the fun out of our lives and expect us to bow down and work hard for them, spend countless hours away from family and freeness to barely afford to live. Work these days is becoming a burden to the way we should be living, it is crushing the american soul. Mark my words, in the next 10 years, when my whole generation is done with school and are paying loans and working in restaurants still or if companies do not increase living wages or decrease the amount of hours In a work week. You are gonna see our whole country turn into Detroit.
Business owners need to realize that just because they made 30,000 when they were my age, that is not the same level of compensation in today's standards and this is the major problem our country faces right now.
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Violator.
So your upset because you have to pay back the loans that you used to get an education that you use for your job, and you think you should be entitled to not to have to pay taxes now that you are working, and you are working for company that is taking advantage of you now? Wow. I guess this is a big surprise for you eh? You made choices that you have to live with. Welcome to the real world, now put your big boy pants on and get busy. If you didn't want to have 300 dollar student loan payments you shouldn't have borrowed so much. Some people WORK their way through college. No one forced you to do anything. No one made these choices for you. You knew you would have to pay taxes when you went to work didn't you? What's stopping you from making your own company?
What are you looking for with this post, sympathy? Going to change the world by complaining about how it works on a game BBS?
Good luck with that, son.
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The Real world is Awesome! Work, Food, Sleep!
The college world is Awesome! Sleep, Food, Sleep!
:rofl
Welcome to the real world. ! :banana:
Remember! When you sign on the bottom line the deal is done and the money is theirs. Thats how it works, thats how we all work.
In 5-10 years youll have a house and kids(If You try) And you can become a conservative that appreciates what he has created. Its all good. :old:
:salute
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Manias would perhaps end if people knew of them, but not economics. Economics is in operation whenever people exchange goods or services.
People dont understand economics and when it goes all pear shaped they put people in ovens :)
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Funny isn't it, how we are seeing the highest #s our stock market has ever seen, and yet just because it goes down a few notches, like every other cycle on this plannet, people lose their $h!t and blame the president for it. Hahaha. The stock market has had an upward slope since the 1930s. Even when it goes down a bit, it will still be compensated for in the future. The stock market is nothing but a game. It is designed to fund companies through the notion that you have part "ownership" to raise funds for the company.
That's why it's crazy to me that these corps make money not only on the products they sell, but also on their ROI and stock share, how much the percieved worth of the company is to the public. The company could be a huge pump n dump sceme who doesn't even sell a product and you could still make 1000s off them by playing them right in the market when their popularity of name gets flashed in the media (HEMP). The stock market is seriously the best type of "gambling" you can find. I always tell people, if you hate a corporation sooooo badly, invest in their stocks and make money off them hahaha.
Like I said, employers aren't paying people fair wages in this economy, people are forced to take petty jobs with low wages, and if the standard of living goes down because of that it will be a huge problem in society. That is why it seems like we are going down hill although, right now actually our economy is fairly stable and manufacturing has increased over the last 2 years.
The thing is, more and more young people are getting college degrees, that's great, what is not great is the government biting us in the prettythang$ for it. I'm 23, a recent BBA graduate, and first it was tough to even find a "corperate" position. Now I'm an accountant. This company of course takes advantage of me because of age and experience. I get that. It's a great learning experience though. But why the F do I pay 24% in taxes on top of $300 monthly student loans. Does our government really think I can afford this crap, and live my life as an "adult" not living in my parents house anymore when I have to give half my pay check away every month?
When you kill the monetary achievement of success to the masses. They will become irritiable and upset, our society will form into medicracy and half wit workers who don't care. Companies take all the fun out of our lives and expect us to bow down and work hard for them, spend countless hours away from family and freeness to barely afford to live. Work these days is becoming a burden to the way we should be living, it is crushing the american soul. Mark my words, in the next 10 years, when my whole generation is done with school and are paying loans and working in restaurants still or if companies do not increase living wages or decrease the amount of hours In a work week. You are gonna see our whole country turn into Detroit.
Business owners need to realize that just because they made 30,000 when they were my age, that is not the same level of compensation in today's standards and this is the major problem our country faces right now.
You are responsible for anything you sign. Sometimes it helps to think a head. You still have the great privilege to live in the United States of America. So you still have to pay rent for living in this country.
I know what you r going through though. I am on my 4th year of teaching and only making $23,000. Not anyone else fault but my own that I took the job for that kinda pay. But hey I am surviving.
Sorry for typos. I am doing this off my phone
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Violator.
So your upset because you have to pay back the loans that you used to get an education that you use for your job, and you think you should be entitled to not to have to pay taxes now that you are working, and you are working for company that is taking advantage of you now? Wow. I guess this is a big surprise for you eh? You made choices that you have to live with. Welcome to the real world, now put your big boy pants on and get busy. If you didn't want to have 300 dollar student loan payments you shouldn't have borrowed so much. Some people WORK their way through college. No one forced you to do anything. No one made these choices for you. You knew you would have to pay taxes when you went to work didn't you? What's stopping you from making your own company?
What are you looking for with this post, sympathy? Going to change the world by complaining about how it works on a game BBS?
Good luck with that, son.
I will create my own company, however I need more experience in my field and how businesses are ran before I can do such a thing while having a legit product/service.
I'm trying to explain why our country is in this position we are in. Why more than 70% of our country is unhappy. I'm not mearly complaining about paying student loans but when the Gment is charging 6% interest that's a bit F-ed up. $300 a month is BS for a recent grad when everyone knows full on that recent grads really don't make that much, on top of 24% tax rate on income. $800 a month to shell out to the Gment is BS for a 23 year old. I don't mind paying taxes, I get that. But $500 out of my income plus student loans is literally a whole nother rent check for me. Luckily, I am in a good position to make a much higher income in the future. I am rather happy with the choices I've made for my future, they are far better than most, which scares me because I know most wont achieve my level and they will be even more worse off.
Unfortunately the majority of people cannot "work" their way through college because at 8.50 an hour, you need to work at least 8 hours a day to even think about trying to live on your own, one single paycheck is equal to how much only your books will cost. It's nearly impossible.
So why does the governmemt set standards based on what they think college grads should make, compared to what we are actually making? The majority of my college grad friends still sadly work in restaurants because they have no experience and can't find a Job in their field. When you take into account the amount of graduating young Americans today, compared to what the market offers, and what the average pay is per graduate, you will realize how severe this situation is about to get when the majority of students won't be able to pay them back.
I don't agree with the mentality that life should be work work work to barely survive and have as little amount of fun as possible because we don't have the time or money to do jack cht. We are supressing our people for the worst. All you have to do is fix the pay scale and you will see a complete change in the direction our country has been going. If this mentality doesn't change, we will destroy the very foundation of success our country was built on.
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If you think 6% interest and 24% taxes are alot,dont move to Canada!
And you sure wouldnt want to live in most European countries either.
I do hear you tho Dmon,I saw this happening to many of my friends when I was about your age. I went to work in an auto factory instead of going to school and while all my friends were incurring debt I was making money! The auto factories paid well but the work was terrible so I invested my money in tools until I had enough to start my own business.
I made choices too,just different ones that didnt put me in debt. I own my home,no mortgage,I own my car,no loan and I'm debt free. I do live a modest life and try to keep my expenses to a minimum. Most my friend consider me a cheap bastage...... :devil
:salute
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I will create my own company, however I need more experience in my field and how businesses are ran before I can do such a thing while having a legit product/service.
Yup
I am rather happy with the choices I've made for my future, they are far better than most, which scares me because I know most wont achieve my level and they will be even more worse off.
Yup
Unfortunately the majority of people cannot "work" their way through college because at 8.50 an hour, you need to work at least 8 hours a day to even think about trying to live on your own, one single paycheck is equal to how much only your books will cost. It's nearly impossible.
One week, one book...hmm...imagine working all summer to get ready for school..hmm..working at a restaurant that gives free food and better pay...I like where this is going....but then I graduate with only restaurant experience. OK
So why does the governmemt set standards based on what they think college grads should make, compared to what we are actually making? The majority of my college grad friends still sadly work in restaurants because they have no experience and can't find a Job in their field. When you take into account the amount of graduating young Americans today, compared to what the market offers, and what the average pay is per graduate, you will realize how severe this situation is about to get when the majority of students won't be able to pay them back.
Long story short, your doing great, dont worry about that.
I don't agree with the mentality that life should be work work work to barely survive and have as little amount of fun as possible because we don't have the time or money to do jack cht. We are supressing our people for the worst. All you have to do is fix the pay scale and you will see a complete change in the direction our country has been going. If this mentality doesn't change, we will destroy the very foundation of success our country was built on.
It would be nice if we could have a society where most of the time was spent playing like a kid. Unfortunately, life is tough. A lot tougher than some big bills from your favorite college.
Now when WW3 starts with the aid of a global market crash.... :bolt:
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stior=NatCigg link=topic=366499.msg4881974#msg4881974 date=1413497696]
Now when WW3 starts with the aid of a global market crash.... :bolt:
Does it have to be that tough? That's all I am saying. Or do we make it tough because we can, for non business owners? Not that it isn't tough to run a business, but I mean financially. Albeit, it does depend on the business and the demand/income. Business owners created this 40,000 a year standard and Americans have this notion that this is where it should be, for some reason. Work 9 hours a day, and get paid as little as you can.... Its working out for employers I'll tell ya.
When you think about productivity, we are getting things finnished 5x more quickly and yet, you are telling me the majority of Americans are still making wages based on 1980-1990 standards?
Our economy is dependent on people spending money. If the people don't have enough to spend, yet prices still continue to climb like they have been over the passed 20 years-ever.. Then people are going to not spend as much in the market. Inevitably, it will have a profound effect on the market as a whole and it will shrink and lower the standard of living until it fixes itself years and years down the road like econ works. I just do not want to see that happen.
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I do realize their are too many factors and situations. But overall is what I'm striving for.
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Go read about Greece and their stock market right now. This is why you don't combine into one currency. It is not a good idea. A global market currency will kill all of the weekest countries. It won't work.
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Funny isn't it,
"Basic Economics," by Sowell or "Economics in One Lesson, by Hazzlit will help you see many misconceptions you have about how markets work and what functions they play.
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Technically speaking we are in what is called a "crappy economy" a recession is when the economy experiences negative growth which is more clearly known as shrinking.
If two summers ago the Gubment hadn't stealthily changed the way GDP is calculated we would be in a recession.....or would have been until the latest bs numbers came out...
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People dont understand economics and when it goes all pear shaped they put people in ovens :)
I do agree with that.
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My opinion:
The economy has in recent years been crappy for most except for those with 100's or 1000's of $millions. The reason is that the general populations has not taken 5-10 hours of their lives to read, say, "Basic Economics," by Sowell. As a result, not only do they know almost nothing about economic systems, they have the harmful idea that they *do* know about it and proceed to urge implementation of horrendously bad policies and to vote for officials who will carry them out.
Folks don't think that they know how to do heart surgery without knowing anything about the subject. Somehow, with just as great a lack of knowledge, they think that they know what economic policies should be implemented.
Is minimum wage helpful to the poor?
Is rent control a good way to get affordable housing into an area?
Is automation good or bad for labor?
Is outsourcing good or bad for your labor?
Do plentiful government college loans make college more affordable for students?
Is war good for an economy?
Is there a fundamental difference between tax revenue and tax rate?
Economics gives you answers to those things that so many people get wrong.
And then there is widespread misunderstanding of what a corporation is, how it works, and what motivates one.
All of this could be corrected with 20 hours of effort in a person's lifetime.
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Brooke its not complicated
"You can have what you want but you cant have what you need"
You can have a big red shiny car but not proper health care
"There is nothing like debt to get a man up in the morning"
Everyone is in debt by using credit cards
I have read numerous books on economics and it all points to one thing "people are daft and dont take responsibility for their own actions"
I might go SLI on my pc or buy a $700 card cash or credit? Cash :rofl
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I can almost buy a Mercedes Benz? Maybe if i take out a loan against my house? :bolt:
Its insane that economist will argue debt can equal earnings. it makes for tough bills. like forinstance america.
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I'll just say that I have taken general economic classes and micro/macro economic courses, and finance as well. I also work currently as an accountant. I've read Dave Ramsey's Entraleadership and I'm generally interested in the subject.
On a micro level
While I do not have the experience or understanding of being a business owner, I do understand the idiology how worker wages effect the overall scope of our economy; it all boils down to spending money, buying stocks, bonds, ect. With our earnings. But the market also fixes itself when lack of demand lowers prices or prices get too high and people cash out their earnings or stop buying. So While their are some companies that are struggling and cannot hire/raise wages and some jobs do not pertain to making higher wages based off the type of company, like small cheap mom and pop restaurants, many companies are taking advantage of their workers based on 1990 living standards, while psycologically preserving the mentality to their workers that our current rate is "acceptable" in this economy.
Brooke, I do not think our economy is that great either, or as good as it should be. Though on a macro level it has been slowely increasing over the passed few years. Unfortunately from a personal aspect, in Natcigg's example, the mass average of people do not understand credit completely and this causes detrimental effects to lower-middle class earners who were expected to pay these debts back. With the highest amounts of turnover rates ever, the middle class is desperately sluggling to keep up. If automation is bad for the "workers" but good for business, the remaining employees who work them should make higher wages... And of course the companies who design and disperse these products should riase worker rages as their demand will increase. Fortunately or not, automation is almost inevitable.
Edit
P.S I am so thankful to live in America and because of many factors I will most likely never gain citizenship or live in an other country if I don't absolutely have to. So yeah Morfiend, I'd hate to pay those kind of taxes.
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I'll just say that I have taken general economic classes and micro/macro economic courses, and finance as well. I also work currently as an accountant. I've read Dave Ramsey's Entraleadership and I'm generally interested in the subject.
I still think that you should read Sowell's or Hazlett's book, because your opinions on what is the heart of trouble in our economy is far different from what those books would point out as the causes. My feeling is that most introductory-level college courses on economics do not result in understanding economic policy or its effects and totally lack what people get from either Sowell's or Hazlett's book. My feeling on that is based on knowing a lot of people who have taken a course or two of college economics and having a lot of economic discussions with them. They make the same mistakes as do people who haven't ever taken any economics courses when thinking about rent control, wage controls, tariffs, the effects of automation and offshoring, etc.
If you do take 5 hours out of your life to read either one, I would be very interested to see your opinion afterwards.
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I still think that you should read Sowell's or Hazlett's book...
Do they cover how insanely bad socialism is for capitalism?
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Do they cover how insanely bad socialism is for capitalism?
Sowell does thoroughly and well. Hazlett less directly, but it would be clear for the reader by the end.
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Brooke some famous politicians wife in the 1880's said it was cruel to educate the masses because they would realise how bad they were being treated, and giving then baths was silly because they would put coal in it.
I knew a bloke who was a pipe fitter, when i went round his house one day he had no floor boards, he told me he had put them on the fire, he never thought it was odd :)
I worked with a bloke who printed out his evication notice for not paying his rent, he had been to Spain for 2 weeks for a holiday, he gave a copy to everyone, he said Ëveryone needs a holiday :)
You could not make it up
When daft people buy everything on credit they do realise you have to pay it back plus more? :frown:
I dont believe Brooke can read anyway :old:
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When you realize most people only make about .002% - .005% of a companies net profits while spending 2340 hours of your time per year, it seems kind of discouraging to even give a crap anymore about working hard.
I will check out the book by Hazlit. I don't need basic fundamentals of econ, but a different outlook on the functions in econ in America would be ineteresting.
But you cannot tell me that our current ideology of what the majority of American's make in a year is not extremely detrimental to the direction this country is going, if we continue to raise prices every year to "compete" with inflation and tax increases.
I guess we will see what happens in 10 years.
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if you found a company that nets (50000/.00002) 2.5 trillion id be happy they were financially stable and your 1000 dollar a week check would not be much to them, thus your job security would be there. Plus with a net profit of 2.5 trillion per year Im sure the bathrooms would be tidy and the equipment shiny.
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I will check out the book by Hazlit. I don't need basic fundamentals of econ, but a different outlook on the functions in econ in America would be ineteresting.
Despite your claims to have a fundamental understanding of economics you consistently demonstrate a fondness of substituting political talking points of certain groups in place of a sound basis in the fundamentals. A biased eye sees what it wants instead of trying to understand the facts and reasoning from there.
Try opening your mind, clear away the blind jealousy of being someone else's fool and make something of yourself. You can start by taking Brookes very solid advice. Only with an honest understanding of the facts can you make yourself into something more than you are now.
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:rofl
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Guess I'll have to throw in a source since you all just do not get it :mad: Please read! http://www.epi.org/publication/ib330-productivity-vs-compensation/
Maybe you are all business owners and don't want to raise wages. Honestly I am surprised no one has agreed with me. But like I said, keep the wages as they are now, and we will see what happens in 10 years.
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:rofl
:cry
Zack,
My investments went down! The sky is falling the end is near....wait I'm still ahead of where I was at this time last year..... :o
T'was a false alarm!
:salute
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Guess I'll have to throw in a source since you all just do not get it :mad: Please read! http://www.epi.org/publication/ib330-productivity-vs-compensation/
Maybe you are all business owners and don't want to raise wages. Honestly I am surprised no one has agreed with me. But like I said, keep the wages as they are now, and we will see what happens in 10 years.
yeah..........well........... ..
You do know of course that if you raise wages for everyone the cost of goods and services will simply go up about the same percentage thereby making your buying power decrease and...........you are right back to where you started. Or maybe you expect those horrible, unjust, business owners to just absorb those cost increases and not raise there prices.........good luck with that. I know I know, give everyone a raise by 20% and then fire 20% of the other workers, keeping you employed of course because you are so very deserving and entitled to more money.
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Guess I'll have to throw in a source since you all just do not get it :mad: Please read! http://www.epi.org/publication/ib330-productivity-vs-compensation/
Maybe you are all business owners and don't want to raise wages. Honestly I am surprised no one has agreed with me. But like I said, keep the wages as they are now, and we will see what happens in 10 years.
Is there any possibility that no one agrees with you because you just don't get it and are wrong? No way, my mistake, you are a college graduate of course where they taught you to think..................err wait.................
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It's mearly based off intuition and logic. I'm not saying unions and the GMent shouldn't force companies to raise wages. But our economy is based off what the business owners provide for their workers. It is capitalistic, they have control how their workers get paid. If we continue to cheap skate our workers the standard of living will go down. Prices have been increasing anyway Zoney... Just slow enough that it you can't really tell, but it is creeping, and we will see down the road. If you told me that at my age ~25, you were making 30,000 in 1970, then why is it so hard to realize that it is not the standard anymore now that production has doubled?
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Guess I'll have to throw in a source since you all just do not get it :mad:
So you stand alone as the enlightened one in this thread and everyone else is the fool? One would never expect a union funded organization to be biased towards class wars? Could their position be an honest analysis of a social economic issue or one biased towards their political end goals? Is your goal to understand how the world realistically works or to push your current opinion on what you might benefit from now with the minimum effort? How about objectively reading the Hazlit book and analyzing the paper you referenced? Try to focus on what actually works and why other paths do not work. Facts and logic lead to understanding. Following false paths for the wrong reasons will lead to disappointment and failure. You can take ownership of yourself and prosper or blame others for your weaknesses.
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It's mearly based off intuition and logic. (This is a joke, right?)I'm not saying unions and the GMent shouldn't force companies to raise wages. But our economy is based off what the business owners provide for their workers. (No, it's not)It is capitalistic, they have control how their workers get paid. If we continue to cheap skate our workers the standard of living will go down. Prices have been increasing anyway(and so has wages) Zoney... Just slow enough that it you can't really tell, but it is creeping, and we will see down the road. If you told me that at my age ~25, you were making 30,000 in 1970(Then you would have been in the upper middle class in 1970, do you think that's where you should be after graduating college in your first real job?), then why is it so hard to realize that it is not the standard anymore now that production has doubled?
Your whole argument smacks of entitlement, or basically socialism, and has nothing, nothing at all to do with economics.
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You have implied that I have called you guys fools, when I have done no such thing, nor do I think any of you are. Though I do have a firm stance on this because it needs to be recognized. No one has even remotely disputed my agruement with facts rather than tell me to read a book, which I will. And no one has even mentioned any other ideas that would help out the economy. If you don't make more than 60,000 a year, you are still stuck in a psycological bubble that you think is acceptable because it's the norm. Please I'd love to hear zoney how our wages do not effect our market ? Production on paper looks good, our stock market looks good (the best it has been over time) , and our GDP looks good, soo gee why are we still stuck with the majority of Americans who can hardly afford to live, get healthcare, and provide safe living quarters for our families and selves? Just because it looks good on paper doesn't mean that our economy is actually that stable.
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I never implied you called anyone a fool. I did say that you were wrong. Where did you get the idea that those making less than 60 grand a year were stuck in a psychological bubble? And I did give you the basic argument that if you raise the wages then the cost of the goods and services will go up. That extra money does not just come out of thin air. Those people that invest in a business should make money on their investment because if they do not then they will not invest. Where do you think the money for your student loan came from? The government? The government does not have any money, they got it from us tax payers that were working while you were going to school and not working.
Once again, your education is not a gift, you pay it back, the money that was invested in it needs to be paid back. The investors that the money came from get interest on the investment because loans, like any other business is there to make money.
In 1974, when I graduated High School, I joined the USAF. Do you have any idea what I was making then as an E1? 4 years later I had a civilian job that I made 18k a year on. I got married, had a daughter, bought a house and went on with life, slowly accumulating a few possessions, slowly making a bit more money. I didn't drive new cars. I didn't have a fancy house. I lived frugally, never once complaining about how downtrodden I was or how unjust big business was.
You want more money? Try this, spend less. Get rid of your cell phone. Sell your computer. Sell your car and get a cheaper one or take the bus. Cancel your cable and your internet. Eat cheaper food, at home that you prepare yourself. Grow some vegetables. Buy second hand stuff that is still serviceable. Stop going out. Get a free library card and entertain yourself by reading books and get some books to educate yourself some more.
Most of the stuff you think you can't live without are luxuries, which means you do not need them to live.
You want to stop big business from profiting on you? Stop buying into the commercialism that big business advertises to you as something you just have to have.
Your ideas on economics are so off base that quite frankly I'm done talking to you about it.
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I never implied you called anyone a fool. I did say that you were wrong. Where did you get the idea that those making less than 60 grand a year were stuck in a psychological bubble? And I did give you the basic argument that if you raise the wages then the cost of the goods and services will go up. That extra money does not just come out of thin air. Those people that invest in a business should make money on their investment because if they do not then they will not invest. Where do you think the money for your student loan came from? The government? The government does not have any money, they got it from us tax payers that were working while you were going to school and not working.
Once again, your education is not a gift, you pay it back, the money that was invested in it needs to be paid back. The investors that the money came from get interest on the investment because loans, like any other business is there to make money.
In 1974, when I graduated High School, I joined the USAF. Do you have any idea what I was making then as an E1? 4 years later I had a civilian job that I made 18k a year on. I got married, had a daughter, bought a house and went on with life, slowly accumulating a few possessions, slowly making a bit more money. I didn't drive new cars. I didn't have a fancy house. I lived frugally, never once complaining about how downtrodden I was or how unjust big business was.
You want more money? Try this, spend less. Get rid of your cell phone. Sell your computer. Sell your car and get a cheaper one or take the bus. Cancel your cable and your internet. Eat cheaper food, at home that you prepare yourself. Grow some vegetables. Buy second hand stuff that is still serviceable. Stop going out. Get a free library card and entertain yourself by reading books and get some books to educate yourself some more.
Most of the stuff you think you can't live without are luxuries, which means you do not need them to live.
You want to stop big business from profiting on you? Stop buying into the commercialism that big business advertises to you as something you just have to have.
Your ideas on economics are so off base that quite frankly I'm done talking to you about it.
you forgot to mention to go out hunting! Its good for the environment and your wallet. :banana:
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Try opening your mind, clear away the blind jealousy of being someone else's fool and make something of yourself. You can start by taking Brookes very solid advice. Only with an honest understanding of the facts can you make yourself into something more than you are now.
Any more pearls of wisdom :old:
How rude and arrogant is the above :old:
"And one day you could be President"
"A closed door is a opportunitiy"
"A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"
We had nausiating posters at work to inspire everyone did you invent them?.
Well done Mort i was worried about you, that $6000 i said i could invest for you has not arrived yet?
"Your investments may go up or down""Your car may or may not start after you have bought it" :rofl
If you work hard you will succeed, so everyone who is not rich is lazy and bad and everyone who is rich is good and hard working :rofl
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Any more pearls of wisdom :old:
How rude and arrogant is the above :old:
"And one day you could be President"
"A closed door is a opportunitiy"
"A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"
We had nausiating posters at work to inspire everyone did you invent them?.
Well done Mort i was worried about you, that $6000 i said i could invest for you has not arrived yet?
"Your investments may go up or down""Your car may or may not start after you have bought it" :rofl
If you work hard you will succeed, so everyone who is not rich is lazy and bad and everyone who is rich is good and hard working :rofl
Zack,
The cheque is in the mail! :rofl :rofl
:salute
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First off, thank you for your contribution in the armed forces. If it weren't for people like you I wouldn't be able to talk so much BS :salute :D
You think my arguement is invalid, yet everything in your entire post is actually telling me every reason why we are in this predicament here with our economy.
Living frugally is not good for the economy.
Selling my personal posessions does not help the economy.
Basically everything in your 4th paragraph will be hurting the econony.
Your 5th, 6th, and 7th paragraph would A. Hurt the economy B. Isn't benefitting anyone or any company, whats wrong with having luxeries, it gives people jobs, makes everything around us look more pleasant instead of a cheap arse crap hole. But it's okay we don't need nice things screw it.
You honestly don't even understand my arguement, psychologically you think your standard of living is okay because it's the "norm" in society, even though you have to live frugally, and you never question the bosses to where you don't have to live like that. IMO that is hurting you and the economy, and then it comes back to bite the employer in the arse. No disrespect to your style of living, some don't need a bunch of crap. But we need American's to buy a ton of crap, thats what I'm getting at with this.
You think I hate the corporate world but that is not my argument. I want to own a business. So I guess I'll see what's up with that. I want to invest in the stock market soon and buy silver when I can "afford" it. I do have a 401k.
The thing about student loans: 6% interest first, second why can't we agree on say 100$ month? Ohh yeahh it's our tax money!! That's right! Wait... So what were taxes for again, to help the community? So loans aren't really helping you, it is just credit. We Shirley aren't gonna see any return on investment as a tax payer either. I'm not complaining about paying them back, however, that is a hefty financial amount/month/int they're placing on recent college grads 6th months out of graduation who are suppose to find "jobs" that can support such a high rate of return for their loans, as well as live moderately in society.
Prices would slowely rise over time but the demand would be greater if more people could buy the product aka, good for business.
It has nothing even close to do with socialism. I don't agree with socialism. It works on paper but not in real life.
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:rofl
You drink double expresso as well
We built the channel tunnel in the UK to import cheap educated people to do our jobs, the governement says its good for the economy :rofl
The market economy :rofl its works to an extent, we have had it here for 50 years and you in the US have not even started :)
You use your internal markets to keep business's running and complain when a bloke in China can produce a car or Jet Airliner for a 1/3 of the price, and what do you all do wave the flag and say they are commies and their planes are poo :rofl
Its in books Brooke has told you, but no point reading it as you will get anoyed and start stoking the ovens again :rofl
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Wow,
Still flogging this equine carcass huh?
Here,
If a quick stop at Amazon.com were all it took to provide access to understanding the mechanics, nature, or design of what we naively call our "economy" then, well, a thread like this would die quick. Some guys I know posses a modest library's worth of material on the subject. All of it nothing more than analysis of past events and a narrow prognostication of what may, given a correspondingly narrow set of factors, produce outcomes in line with the author's particular focus. They all offer insight and perspective. Even some unique data.
The thing is they don't offer a road map or a silver bullet. None ever do or in reality, could. One thing I've learned in my brief exposure to the world of making/spending/losing/keeping lucre is that, typically, as in most competitive endeavors, those that know don't talk (at least not till after the smoke's cleared) and those that talk don't know. Can't blame 'em. It's a fascinating topic. BUT having a grasp of the relevant facts and how they fit can go a long way toward making one truly conversant in the subject. Otherwise everybody gets all mucked up in trivial distinctions...
So the answer to the OP's query has to be...."not necessarily".
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The economy is relative to the person experiencing it.
The 1 million bankruptcy filers in 2013 would not rate it highly.
I have no economic numbers so these are just my observations.
What I have noticed is wages have been flat for most of the middle class for most of 10 years now.
The prices of many goods and services have gone up in this time.
The quantity of food in a package has gone down while prices crept up.
Employers have shifted to more part time employees to save on benefits for full timers.
The Stock Market has been artificially propped up with infusions of currency.
Employers for non union workers do not give significant raises due to the many excuses such as "it's been a bad year, tough economy ect."
I take the example of the Automotive repair area I am familiar with:
In 2003 where I work the labor rate was $79/hr to have your car repaired.
In 2014 the rate is $105/hr.
$26 is roughly a 32% increase. Wages (in my shop for good A techs) have risen over that time slightly but only by 20%.
So the workers available income is 12% less able to afford the cost of goods and services.
From the US Department of agriculture: Given the lag in commodity costs impacting prices on grocery store shelves, annual U.S. food inflation is now running at +22% and rising.
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Burn the commie :rofl
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Burn the commie :rofl
YANKIE GO HOME!...........oh, wait....oh, JUST GO HOME!
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I dont believe Brooke can read anyway :old:
Its a outrage! :aok
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No one has even remotely disputed my agruement with facts rather than tell me to read a book, which I will.
OK (although if you can manage it Sowell's book is the better of the two to read -- Hazlett is if you can't read one unless it's short), here you go.
You think that employers can decide independently what to pay people. That is completely wrong. Wages are part of an economic system, and a market determines them, of which the opinions of employers are only a tiny part. Given that they set them at $x/year, why is it x and not 10x or x/10? The reason is that at lower than x, they wouldn't be able to get the employees that are needed; and at higher than x, they are paying more than is needed to get the employees, leaving them at a disadvantage to competitors, which, if bad enough, results in the business paying $0/year when it closes down. The market determines x. That is why beginning electrical engineers cost $75k/year and beginning waiters cost $25k/year even if an electronics firm likes the idea of paying electrical engineers $25k/year of if a restaurant likes the idea of waiters getting $75k/year.
I would like some money for every time I talk to a person who has taken economics courses in college yet who gets such basic economic mechanisms completely wrong.
"Basic Economics," by Sowell, folks -- it can free your mind from slavery to economic fallacies. :aok
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I dont believe Brooke can read anyway :old:
(I listen to audio books.)
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OK (although if you can manage it Sowell's book is the better of the two to read -- Hazlett is if you can't read one unless it's short), here you go.
You think that employers can decide independently what to pay people. That is completely wrong. Wages are part of an economic system, and a market determines them, of which the opinions of employers are only a tiny part. Given that they set them at $x/year, why is it x and not 10x or x/10? The reason is that at lower than x, they wouldn't be able to get the employees that are needed; and at higher than x, they are paying more than is needed to get the employees, leaving them at a disadvantage to competitors, which, if bad enough, results in the business paying $0/year when it closes down. The market determines x. That is why beginning electrical engineers cost $75k/year and beginning waiters cost $25k/year even if an electronics firm likes the idea of paying electrical engineers $25k/year of if a restaurant likes the idea of waiters getting $75k/year.
I would like some money for every time I talk to a person who has taken economics courses in college yet who gets such basic economic mechanisms completely wrong.
"Basic Economics," by Sowell, folks -- it can free your mind from slavery to economic fallacies. :aok
could you talk about economies of scale and how difficult it is for a business without it to manufacture a product for price Y. or given that the globalized market place has put further stress on said business because alibuboo not only has economy of scale but very cheap labor and can sell the product for x. Now said business has now chance to produce product for x. Even Fordo who has economy of scale can no longer sell at price Y and must lower costs to manufacture product for x in order to compete with Alibuboo.
:pray
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could you talk about economies of scale and how difficult it is for a business without it to manufacture a product for price Y. or given that the globalized market place has put further stress on said business because alibuboo not only has economy of scale but very cheap labor and can sell the product for x. Now said business has now chance to produce product for x. Even Fordo who has economy of scale can no longer sell at price Y and must lower costs to manufacture product for x in order to compete with Alibuboo.
:pray
Are you describing the race to the bottom?
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OK (although if you can manage it Sowell's book is the better of the two to read -- Hazlett is if you can't read one unless it's short), here you go.
You think that employers can decide independently what to pay people. That is completely wrong. Wages are part of an economic system, and a market determines them, of which the opinions of employers are only a tiny part. Given that they set them at $x/year, why is it x and not 10x or x/10? The reason is that at lower than x, they wouldn't be able to get the employees that are needed; and at higher than x, they are paying more than is needed to get the employees, leaving them at a disadvantage to competitors, which, if bad enough, results in the business paying $0/year when it closes down. The market determines x. That is why beginning electrical engineers cost $75k/year and beginning waiters cost $25k/year even if an electronics firm likes the idea of paying electrical engineers $25k/year of if a restaurant likes the idea of waiters getting $75k/year.
I would like some money for every time I talk to a person who has taken economics courses in college yet who gets such basic economic mechanisms completely wrong.
"Basic Economics," by Sowell, folks -- it can free your mind from slavery to economic fallacies. :aok
That is a good argument and I can see how that is portrayed, given the type of labor, and the quality of that labor. Would you agree that eventually the type of labor would suffer and lack quality if the employers continued to give the job to lower paid workers? Likewise, if a company handed out higher pay compared to competitors, wouldn't that attract the best workers, therefore making the company more profitable? Which would then increase pay around the industry.
could you talk about economies of scale and how difficult it is for a business without it to manufacture a product for price Y. or given that the globalized market place has put further stress on said business because alibuboo not only has economy of scale but very cheap labor and can sell the product for x. Now said business has now chance to produce product for x. Even Fordo who has economy of scale can no longer sell at price Y and must lower costs to manufacture product for x in order to compete with Alibuboo.
:pray
That is a great question. And to add insult to injury, its controlled under a completely different economic system.
And it's far a way from America. That may be difficult to be a good competitor in this country. Im going to look into that company more.
The only problem with college is that we learn the fundamentals. But don't have the knowledge of what a CEO actually goes through.
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That is a good argument and I can see how that is portrayed, given the type of labor, and the quality of that labor. Would you agree that eventually the type of labor would suffer and lack quality if the employers continued to give the job to lower paid workers? Likewise, if a company handed out higher pay compared to competitors, wouldn't that attract the best workers, therefore making the company more profitable? Which would then increase pay around the industry.
if you try a little harder i think youll get it. there is always a give and take, or in better words a supply and demand curve. the market decides the numbers. it is more often than not, regulations that disrupt this system. Increased costs due to regulations puts stress on a bussines, the business will adjust by increasing the price of the product or decreasing expenses or simply losing profit.
The problem I see in your logic is that your pulling money out of thin air. how is one company's increased profit going to lead to further increased pay in the industry? only if the super human worker your dreaming of creates a demand for that worker. still the market is deciding the increase in wages.
This system is established and works far better than your imagination. you can try to reinvent the wheel but the only thing your doing is thowing wrenches in the wheel that is driving the bus.
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(I listen to audio books.)
So when are you going write a review of the "Broke Back Mountain" audio book you downloaded the other month :old:
"when money dies" is a good audio book :old:
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So when are you going write a review of the "Broke Back Mountain" audio book you downloaded the other month :old:
"when money dies" is a good audio book :old:
Zack,
I had to visit my banker today! He told me your investment may go or may go down!
It`s an outrage but I had to laugh as I walked out!
:salute
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Would you agree that eventually the type of labor would suffer and lack quality if the employers continued to give the job to lower paid workers?
Yes -- but that is what the market figures out. For a company, it needs employees of skill Y to operate optimally and thrive. If it gets employees at less than Y, it will get beat by competitors that get high-enough Y, and that competitor will thrive and the misallocated company will not. If a company hires employees much higher than Y, it will pay them a lot more, and that typically does not translate into higher profits (or that's what the market rate would become). That is why, when you hire someone (a mechanic to work on your car, for example), you don't hire the head of an Indy car mechanic team to do it but instead use a normal mechanic. Why? Because paying the Indy guy $5000 to do a tune up vs. $200 (or whatever it normally costs) doesn't result in $4800 extra benefit to you.
Markets figure all of this out.
Reading Sowell, you will get all of these dynamics firmly and easily in mind.
The only problem with college is that we learn the fundamentals. But don't have the knowledge of what a CEO actually goes through.
I've been through a lot of college. The problem is that people often do not get taught fundamentals. In econ classes, it seems to me, they learn a bunch of niche crap that doesn't help them figure out simple -- yet important -- real-world things like, do minimum wage laws work?, does rent control work?, is war the way to improve an economy?, is a bad economy because employers are greedy?, and so on. They learn about a supply/demand curves maybe, and that seems to be about all they take away from it (if that).
Also, CEO's often don't know crap about economics (another misconception people have about economics is that business = economics and that business people know economics -- they usually don't). As a group, they still should read "Basic Economics," by Sowell.
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So when are you going write a review of the "Broke Back Mountain" audio book you downloaded the other month :old:
Ah, one of my favorites, along with this great movie I watched -- "Backside to the Future".
"when money dies" is a good audio book :old:
I haven't read "When Money Dies", but it sounds good and I might get it based on your recommendation. I am very familiar with the history of currency in the Weimar Republic. I have read:
This Time is Different, by Reinhart and Rogoff (which is awesome, but is full of statistics and would not be enjoyable to most people)
The Death of Money, by Rickards
Endgame, by Mauldin and Tepper
Code Red, by Mauldin and Tepper
The Return of Depression Economics, by Krugman
End This Depression Now, by Krugman
The Big Short, by Lewis
Boomerang, by Lewis
Keynes Hayek, by Wapshott
and in the broader context of civilization
The Birth of Britain, by Churchill
Civilization, by Ferguson
The Great Degeneration, by Ferguson
Why Nations Fail, by Acemoglu and Robinson
The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Gibbon
Losing Ground: American Social Policy 1950-1980, by Murray
A History of Greece, by Robinson
Conquests and Cultures, by Sowell
Guns, Germs, and Steel, by Diamond
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Avrill Harriman wrote a book "American Imperialism" which today colonials grab for their pitchforks when it is mentioned :)
It was written in the 1950's which was very suprising, Harriman was bullett proof because of his wealth and influence in dealing with the Commies :)
I have written a book its in Wikipedepoo so it must be true :rofl
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if you try a little harder i think youll get it. there is always a give and take, or in better words a supply and demand curve. the market decides the numbers. it is more often than not, regulations that disrupt this system. Increased costs due to regulations puts stress on a bussines, the business will adjust by increasing the price of the product or decreasing expenses or simply losing profit.
The problem I see in your logic is that your pulling money out of thin air. how is one company's increased profit going to lead to further increased pay in the industry? only if the super human worker your dreaming of creates a demand for that worker. still the market is deciding the increase in wages.
This system is established and works far better than yourexpensive and tion. you can try to reinvent the wheel but the only thing your doing is thowing wrenches in the wheel that is driving the bus.
I'm thinking pretty hard on this one don't worry.
Isn't the object of a business to essentially "pull money out of thin air".
I agree with your first paragraph that there is always a give and take and with economics, it always goes up and always goes down when you try to do something or not. This is why econ is so debateable.That being said, you want the pattern to look much like our current stock market trends since the 1930's. That is a good indicator that we have expanded and companies have still been successfully invested in.
Credit and debt has had a hugeee backlash for our country obviously, but it is a necessary evil to keep our current system of trade stable. I feel like this is a whole separate issue all together. Again, people need the jobs to pay them back, while banks need to make damn sure those people can pay it back.
Yes regulations do have a major impact, which other countries don't have to compete with. So I do agree with you on that and how it does cut back potential earnings. Although, I do think some regulation is necessary for our personal standards and satisfaction of the product/service.
I don't think you are realizing my point about compensation and success, Natcigg. The pay scale/work is constructed based on the what the current market pay rate is correct. So the different in our ideology is that I firmly believe if you were able to find better workers, say an experienced engineer, or top salesman, gaming developer, and paid them more than competitors , you would essentially be taking a risk for reward. However, you'd (potentially) be making higher profits based on the experience increase in performance/happiness of your employees. Your company will (potentially) create an advantage by providing better service/products, therefore increasing the profits by taking customers away from the competition -aka pulling money out of thin air to meet the workers demand/profit, there has to be a way to make economy of scale better in your company. In order to be successful you have to have better products, better customer services, and still maintain a comparitve cost with your customers. While increasing pay and quality may slightly raise the price and risk of losing customers, the goal is hoping to gain better share by stealing customers by having better products. On that note, I believe that it comes down to what the owners want to put back in their pocket, compared to what the market is percieved to be toward their employees, rather than what the company is making as a whole compared to its competitors in a region. That is why compensation has not increased with productivity like it use to in the past. Depending on the owners, they may choose whether they want to be the company with the cheapest prices or the best quality. The better quality producers typically pull around the same amount of business in a region while paying employees more. The cheaper prices company stunts market growth in the region and keeps the rate of pay down for the market causing the quality of standard of living to not be as high as it should be. If more people work at the lower paying company. The quality of the consumer economy will go down.
So looking at the same type of product, like cars for example. If their are 3 different companies that run a city let's say, and the town was split into 3rds. The best workers got paid the highest and 1 dealership had the best workers because their cars were more expensive and are better quality. One was medium with medium pay, the other was the low end makers who's employees made the lowest wages. It would be obvious to tell which company everyone initually wanted to work for. But you got the lazy and the middle workers who don't work as hard so this drops the market rate average and the overall standard of living.
If each company were able to produce the same cars and all paid the same rate. The economy would be more stable while encouraging different types of brands to be baught, and the standard of living would be neutral. In order for this to happen, the low end company would have to take a risk and give their workers higher wages. If the expensive brand lowerd wages to meet the market. That would be bad for the whole economy.
It is hypothetical, it just depends on how you imagine the economy to becoming better over time rather than continuing to drop do to the lower market rates based on the lower paying companies.
I think a good example of this is how professional sports teams opperate.
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Avrill Harriman wrote a book "American Imperialism" which today colonials grab for their pitchforks when it is mentioned :)
I don't have a pitchfork. Will a broom work?
I have written a book its in Wikipedepoo so it must be true :rofl
How about a link? :aok
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it just depends on how you imagine the economy to becoming better over time rather than continuing to drop do to the lower market rates based on the lower paying companies.
Economic improvement is the result of innovation, creation, and productivity gains. It has nothing to do with what employers think about wages. It is the result of free markets; the rule of law; stable, fair, and minimally invasive institutions; and a citizenry that doesn't start believing a load of crap and then wreck all of it.
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a citizenry that doesn't start believing a load of crap and then wreck all of it.
:lol
On a side note, good workers can be hard to find. for me I cant buy good workers. I get young and old people interested in the work we do and we work out a agreeable rate. from this, I have seen a good share of good employees and bad employees, the best ones listen and execute with a solid intrest to succeed, personally and for the business. The bad ones have poor attitudes and dont listen well. The situation is out of hand when the bad ones forget the day they walked in asking for a job, then develop there own ideas in spite of leadership, and develop like a cancer in the team. These problem people need to be eliminated.
I think its important to know your place and to continue working hard for the team. And also make yourself underpaid, when the contract is up then you can renegotiate. When you hit the higher payscale your performance must be there. there are more people wanting to take your job and the man on top will be looking at your large salary and compairing it to production and also other viable options that might involve your removal. like biggie say "mo money mo problems"
Also some pip squeak out of college dont know his donut from a door knob and really cant say much. Your book smarts and fantastical view of polar bears dont mean squat in the real world.
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:lol
On a side note, good workers can be hard to find. for me I cant buy good workers. I get young and old people interested in the work we do and we work out a agreeable rate. from this, I have seen a good share of good employees and bad employees, the best ones listen and execute with a solid intrest to succeed, personally and for the business. The bad ones have poor attitudes and dont listen well. The situation is out of hand when the bad ones forget the day they walked in asking for a job, then develop there own ideas in spite of leadership, and develop like a cancer in the team. These problem people need to be eliminated.
I think its important to know your place and to continue working hard for the team. And also make yourself underpaid, when the contract is up then you can renegotiate. When you hit the higher payscale your performance must be there. there are more people wanting to take your job and the man on top will be looking at your large salary and compairing it to production and also other viable options that might involve your removal. like biggie say "mo money mo problems"
Also some pip squeak out of college dont know his donut from a door knob and really cant say much. Your book smarts and fantastical view of polar bears dont mean squat in the real world.
Well, I agreed with the lot of that up until the last paragraph, ya hairy Scottish monkey.
And as well with Brooke.
I realize I am speaking on irrelevent authority to an extent.
Although, I truely think wages effect the economy on a much grander scale, as a whole, for businesses to succeed, and the change is difficult to make.. It is necessary to extend the value of the market and create larger scales instead of slowely lagging behind. It's not about what the employers think their wages ought to be. It is about preserving the competition of workers for successful profits as well as increasing market share for higher profits.
The consumer base is huge. People need to spend more money. They are craving it. And it will help the whole market. Creation, innovation, that doesn't happen without being apart of a team that cares.
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Creation, innovation, that doesn't happen without being apart of a team that cares.
It always happens, regardless of good or bad business environments, as long as the society isn't structured idiotically (which happens a lot in the world). If there are no good businesses in that regard, people leave and start their own businesses that do optimize it and then outcompete the old businesses -- if the society isn't structured to kill that process.
You can hamper that process with:
-- Too much regulation, so that it is too hard, expensive, or risky to start or operate a startup (i.e., securities laws that are too complicated and risky, labor laws that are too complicated and hard to adjust your workforce, tax systems that create large compliance burden, not even including the tax amount, etc.).
-- Cronyism, that protects entrenched players against startups (rules that favor huge, entrenched businesses and protect them from smaller competitors who can't afford an army of lawyers, lobbyists, and compliance officers -- or in really bad countries, where the government just flat out steals the businesses or their goods).
-- Unpredictability of regulation (so that you can't tell if there is going to be a major shift in regulation that ruins what you are working toward).
-- Taxes that are too high or too "progressive" (i.e., Laffer curve problems or uncompetitive taxation compared to other countries).
-- Creating a culture that results in citizens disparaging ambition, work ethic, learning practical skills, entrepreneurialism, and achievement.
If you look at all of these as being summarized by one value -- let's call it "What not to do" -- and you look at history and current countries, you can clearly see that when you turn up the "what not to do" knob, your economy tends to become a piece of crap, and when you turn it down, things tend to get a lot better.
I leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out if we have been in a time of the knob being turned up or down.
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---and keep falling,90 minutes more ; did Ebola hit the Wall Street casino ? : :(
http://www.marketwatch.com/
Dont worry GHI the feds will print more money here in the US nothing to worry about :rofl