Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Muzzy on February 10, 2015, 08:14:35 AM
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I've been flying the D 40 this past sim and doing well with it. I'd like to learn more about flying it and other jug models. Any advice from jug experts? For one thing, I'd like to know some good defensive strategies. I've found that the flat scissors can work well, but are there any other ideas for staying ssfe?
One last thing: I've got convergence set at 650 on the D 40, but I find when using that setting in the M and N models I tend to miss more shots. Are the wings wider on those models?
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You are on to something already. The P-47 is well suited to Flat and rolling scissors when on the defensive. Constant use of throttle, manual trim, and flaps help get the plane around quicker. Because the jug builds energy slowly compared to what you find in the MA, keeping the nose down in a close quarters battle is recommended by me. Regain your energy when you get a little separation.
YMMV, but I like to keep convergence at 300 yards. I rarely fire at anything over 400 yards anyway and like what 8 fifties do at convergence.
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The N has a larger wingspan. The M has the standard wing. You can use the .target command and set the target to 10 yards to compare differences in gun location between fighters.
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It's a plane that you mostly want to fly high with or at least compensate that with E or (smash as they call it these days) while attacking or flying lower than 10k.
The plane can be real sluggish flying low if you don't not have the smash. It is a decent E fighter and has a good average speed, but the exceleration limits the abilities while flying low.
In rides like the D40-N-M they are planes you don't necessarily want to end up low n slow on the deck with while there are a bunch of con's around. It will be an easy pick all the way around. Even if the p47 tries defensive tactics, fighting multiple con's or even planes that can turn better than a Yak will out perform these types of 47s no matter how hard you try against players that know what they are doing. These p47s should stay fast or high at all times while flying around 3 or more con's. You should be BnZing planes while rarely attempting ropes if multiple con's are around you, (not a rope style plane), this plane doesn't gain E quickly without Alt so burning E with a rope is risky if other planes are on the way to engage you. Which can make for an easy gang.( Ei, it is a dive, shoot, extend, then climb, type of plane. ) once you get caught by 2 or more planes with E. The fight becomes almost unwinnable.
These planes cannot out turn any plane that can turn better than a yak ( if the pilot know what he's doing).
The D11 is the "turn fighter" if you will of the group. This plane can outurn quite a bit of planes if flown correctly. Although the biggest weakness is speed, excel, and climb. So you really need to be high or fast around multiple con's or else you will get ganged quickly. In a 1v1 situation you can out turn most planes but it is a tough match Vs planes that are out E flying it. You have to be a lot more concentrated on SA while flying a D11 because of how slow the plane is compared to the late war planes.
Flying any P47 around multiple con's who have alt or E advantage is dangerous. This plane is NOT A BASE DEFEDING TYPE PLANE, unless you up from another base and get Alt first. The best time to fly this plane is when you are attacking an enemy base and the con's around you are below 8k. You should be at least 15k when entering into enemy territory.
As far as "defensive" flying goes. Your best bet is to perform a barrel roll defense at high speeds. The 47 works wonders at high speeds compared to many others. So if you have a con jumping your 6 with more E, I highly recommend going into a nose dive first to gain speed, as the enemy plane is following, you start the nose down turn and get them to blackout while chasing you for a leadshot. At this point you can pull a successfully Barrel roll defense at higher speeds and maybe pull around on their 6 or at least possibly get a quick snap shot.
I always tell people who get into a rolling scissors with a p47 to completely roll around all the way first (to keep the nose up) and then point the nose in for a shot. In a plane like the 109s, you can get away with not rolling around all the way and still making a shot, or being able to pull up and around quickly. In a p47 if you try this, the enemy with be able to out roll you because of how heavy the p47 feels at low speeds while your nose is facing down toward the enemy, so If you missed the quick snap shot you are doomed and better not try to pull up and do another roll, just keep going nose down as he rolls around you, you may be able to extend away.
. If you get the roll all the way around first, you will have a much better time in the rolling scissors because you will keep the nose up (which is very important turning fighting in this plane. Remember though. The p47 40-m-N do not perform well at really slow speeds. So you will NOT out roll any good pilot in a plane that can turn better than a yak. You have turn the fight from defense to offense very quickly while the P47 has speed or else it will be tougher and tougher to win the fight as you get slower and slower in the rolling scissors. Vs a plane like the 109, once the P47 gets slow in the roll it is game over.
The D11 is much of the same in fights but can turn a lot better at lower speeds. Yet the performance of the plane is why it is difficult to fly with multiple con's around.
Stay fast my friend.
<S>
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Great post by violator, and need I mention to you that you need to be extremely cautious of being caught in a vertical reversal, as slowing down hinders your maneuverability, especially if you do it to stay on the enemy's six. For a jug these types of reversals are deadly because slowing down of course causes you to slowly lose the advantage, and if you miss you may get roped, if it's up close the same thing could happen.
The bad thing as well, of course, is the overshoot, if you keep throttle firewalled. So if you notice a con setting you up for this just break away and renew the attack.
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Muzzy,
As an addendum, I suggest you contact some people that know the P-47 in and out for some one on one discussions. LilMak and Frenchy know the P-47 better than anyone else in the game and are always willing to share their time and knowledge.
ammo
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I set the two inner guns to 325 and the two outer guns to 300 A bit different than most.
The 47M with 50% fuel will serve you well in a base defense if the the base cap isn't tight. If it is tight the old KI 83 will fix that then back to the 47.
You can kill three hangers with two P47-D40s. It is the only fighter that can do that if I remember right.
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I sometimes think I'm the only one that likes the D-25
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^ you are..
It just doesn't really do anything that stands out to me, compared to the other models they at least have something to differentiate them with performance. The 25 is like a heavier and faster D11 that can't turn as well. It is a fat cow lol
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I sometimes think I'm the only one that likes the D-25
You're not the only one that likes the D-25. Maybe you can do a "keel the crab" thing with D-25s
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^ you are..
It just doesn't really do anything that stands out to me, compared to the other models they at least have something to differentiate them with performance. The 25 is like a heavier and faster D11 that can't turn as well. It is a fat cow lol
The D11 is faster than the D25.
D25 has a better powerloading and is supposed to have more armor.
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The D11 is faster than the D25.
D25 has a better powerloading and is supposed to have more armor.
D11 is faster under 10K without WEP, yes. Makes sense, the razorback has a cleaner airframe
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I sometimes think I'm the only one that likes the D-25
I like the D25 more than the D40. It's probably my favorite of the Jugs, though it's pretty close between the D25, D11, and N. I dont know why I like it so much, I just do. Maybe the slightly higher ENY has something to do with it?
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Well thus far the D40 is working well for me. I've tried the M and N models but I have less success in them, I think in part due to the slightly different convergence.
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Lepape was the jug master...bar none.
find his vids. :aok
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Talk to Ammo if you want a lesson on turnfighting the D-11; we engaged in a 10 minute turn fight one day (vs. my Yak3) and I'm still amazed at what he was doing in that thing.
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Talk to Ammo if you want a lesson on turnfighting the D-11; we engaged in a 10 minute turn fight one day (vs. my Yak3) and I'm still amazed at what he was doing in that thing.
Thanks Elvis. That was a great fight that left me with a huge smile on my face. Rare we get one like that in the MA without interference.
Having said that, Frenchy, Hub, Lilmak, Player1, and a few others in the 56th are better than me.
And unlike LePape, they are active and can be helpful.
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The D11 is faster than the D25.
D25 has a better powerloading and is supposed to have more armor.
D11 is faster under 10K without WEP, yes. Makes sense, the razorback has a cleaner airframe
Glzz be tryin to threaten my intelligence. :D.In all honesty I base my assumptions off experience rather than charts as charts only show a 2D perception of realism. Once the 25 gets going, it's better at going than the D11 is. Does that make since? Although I'd much rather fly the D11 over the 25 for the turny ability.
For real though, you don't want this plane to be below 10k with no wep. You are asking to get jumped like racist white dude at a Al Sharpton speech.
I love this plane to death, I wish the M could turn just a quite bit better at lower speeds. It just can't perform the same types of flying as I can in the 109s. It is the most beautiful warbird IMO.
Once you get low n slow with it you are doomed if other cons are on the way to engage. It is not a plane that fights E planes very well if you don't have the E to combat it. Being slow under 5k is like being in a death trap, especially if you don't know what you are doing.
My favorite is the M model.
I tend to get a little impatient and like to dogfight it at mid alts and see if I can out maneuver better turning planes in furballs. WHICH IS THE WRONG WAY TO FLY IT.
But if I was taking it seriously, I'd climb to 18K on entry to fights. Dive to 15k before I get there so I'm going about 420, and then I am set to engage any target around me. Fight the con's who are coalt. BnZ the low con's. Dive shoot and then extend. Since the P47 can go quite fast in a dive, you don't have to worry so much about spiral diving on top of planes. Although it is still useful to use in your fights. I'd stay high and outside of the furball, make quick passes through it, clean off a couple unsuspecters, and after my 6th kill dive away and make it home in time for lunch.
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Does that make since?
Sense* :P <3
I understand what you mean, but I think its important that we don't confuse speed advantages with acceleration advantages. Now the speed advantage the Razor back(D11) holds against the D25 is negligible considering its only a 5-8 mph advantage.
In all honesty, I wish the D25 could be replaced with the D23. I really want a Razorback jug that can do long range escort missions.
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I would argue a D23, if added, would become "the" Jug in the MA, or at least rival the M for usage.
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I would argue a D23, if added, would become "the" Jug in the MA, or at least rival the M for usage.
It's alittle ridiculous that we have 4 Bubble canopy Jugs, and only one razorback, and the razorback being the least capable(Payload, Power loading, Range).
Personally, the P47N is my favorite in game. I like the way it handles and I'm pretty comfortable fighting against multiple cons in it. It's certainly the most stable jug at low speeds and I believe its the most under estimated P47 considering most people use it as a 1 way ticket bomb truck.
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It's alittle ridiculous that we have 4 Bubble canopy Jugs, and only one razorback, and the razorback being the least capable(Payload, Power loading, Range).
Personally, the P47N is my favorite in game. I like the way it handles and I'm pretty comfortable fighting against multiple cons in it. It's certainly the most stable jug at low speeds and I believe its the most under estimated P47 considering most people use it as a 1 way ticket bomb truck.
D11 most fun to fight in, any jug is the most fun to fight lol.
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D11 most fun to fight in, any jug is the most fun to fight lol.
I can hop into the Nancy and do fine in it, but when I don't fly the D11 consistently I wing stall it alot and get into some nasty spins.
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I can hop into the Nancy and do fine in it, but when I don't fly the D11 consistently I wing stall it alot and get into some nasty spins.
Like the P40?
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Not really. I get into the situations like that with the D11 because I'm pushing it to hard in stall fights, With the p40 I'm more aware of what I can and can't do with it.
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Not really. I get into the situations like that with the D11 because I'm pushing it to hard in stall fights, With the p40 I'm more aware of what I can and can't do with it.
I can't do much with that p40
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I can't do much with that p40
probably has something to do with the performance monsters you tend fly.
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probably has something to do with the performance monsters you tend fly.
No.
I can fly the p40, just not used to the wing stall it produces.
K4's are leet, I can fly other things that aren't performance monsters. -_-
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P40 is corky, and not a great stall fighter in my experience. The P40C is the lightest and seems to be the most forgiving.
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Anarchy cant fly anything thats not a performance monster. :devil
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Getting back on track:
Honestly Muzzy, you seem to be doing just fine for yourself in the P47D40. You fly any plane enough you'll eventually learn all of its ins and outs
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Well Jugs are very tricky to fly. When u fly them always have a mentality of 2 moves ahead of time. Meaning the maneuver that you are currently doing have 1-2 moves planned ahead. That way you can trick the enemy and make them overshoot or miss or stall(since the jug has a big rudder). Once u master the stall to the max, you will be great.
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Glzz be tryin to threaten my intelligence. :D.In all honesty I base my assumptions off experience rather than charts as charts only show a 2D perception of realism. Once the 25 gets going, it's better at going than the D11 is. Does that make since? Although I'd much rather fly the D11 over the 25 for the turny ability.
For real though, you don't want this plane to be below 10k with no wep. You are asking to get jumped like racist white dude at a Al Sharpton speech.
I love this plane to death, I wish the M could turn just a quite bit better at lower speeds. It just can't perform the same types of flying as I can in the 109s. It is the most beautiful warbird IMO.
Once you get low n slow with it you are doomed if other cons are on the way to engage. It is not a plane that fights E planes very well if you don't have the E to combat it. Being slow under 5k is like being in a death trap, especially if you don't know what you are doing.
My favorite is the M model.
I tend to get a little impatient and like to dogfight it at mid alts and see if I can out maneuver better turning planes in furballs. WHICH IS THE WRONG WAY TO FLY IT.
But if I was taking it seriously, I'd climb to 18K on entry to fights. Dive to 15k before I get there so I'm going about 420, and then I am set to engage any target around me. Fight the con's who are coalt. BnZ the low con's. Dive shoot and then extend. Since the P47 can go quite fast in a dive, you don't have to worry so much about spiral diving on top of planes. Although it is still useful to use in your fights. I'd stay high and outside of the furball, make quick passes through it, clean off a couple unsuspecters, and after my 6th kill dive away and make it home in time for lunch.
All of this is about dead on IMO. I always loved the D11 because it did the best in my hands when I'd have to fight from below or slow. Below 25% fuel and with WEP, it can stall fight better than a lot of people think it can. All of the jugs really benefit from light fuel and WEP at slow speeds, moreso than most other planes I think.
For some reason, I just couldn't do much in the D25. The D40 was my go-to plane for jaboing some stuff at a field and sticking around afterward to fight, but it wasn't as capable for me to fight with as the D11. The M accelerates and climbs the best out of the jugs, but I don't much care for stallfighting in it. The N is about the most stable gun platform in the game IMO. There's something slightly different about the guns on it, possibly the spacing mentioned earlier, but once you get the sight picture in your head, it's one of the best BnZ/bomber interceptors in the game.
Wiley.
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If you are an alt monkey, (like some people are who will go unnamed) the N is a fantastic ride. More internal fuel, 8 50's, yes 8 of them, if you can't kill then with 8 just quit. And the higher you are the more of an advantage you have on almost everything else in the game. She also will take a beating and still get you home.
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I fly with 6 fifty cals :D
I am of the opinion that the N is the most capable Jug, I think if any USAAF plane should be perked it should be the Nancy(with in reason).
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If you are an alt monkey, (like some people are who will go unnamed) the N is a fantastic ride.
Ya but. look how long it takes to climb to alt monkey airspace.
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Ya but. look how long it takes to climb to alt monkey airspace.
Yeah, but once you're there, you can stay there for a looooooooong time.
Wiley.
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If you are an alt monkey, (like some people are who will go unnamed) the N is a fantastic ride. More internal fuel, 8 50's, yes 8 of them, if you can't kill then with 8 just quit. And the higher you are the more of an advantage you have on almost everything else in the game. She also will take a beating and still get you home.
I don't understand this. Sure the N model is a good plane, but in my experience, the M beats it up and down in the arenas
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Take them to the Zoneysphere and see the difference (above 30K).
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Take them to the Zoneysphere and see the difference (above 30K).
I'll play man. We can switch up too. I say the M will own the N in zoneysphere.
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I'd love to but I'm a dedicated Luftwaffe pilot since joining JG11 awhile ago. I am simply out of practice and could do it no justice I am sure. I have no problem going to the DA and fly it with you but again, I could no longer do it justice.
Man.........that sounds weasely even to me.
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I wouldn't mind putting my Nancy to the test up that high, Even if it cant dog fight with the P47M it can still carrier more Bombs :P
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I wouldn't mind putting my Nancy to the test up that high, Even if it cant dog fight with the P47M it can still carrier more Bombs :P
A plane as manly as that should be called a "November" :lol
Sure, let's set a Euro friendly time to do this. Should be interesting
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I'm available from 7:30PM EST until I pass out on week nights. On Saturdays I'm around at 5:30PM till I passout (not this sat though) and Sundays I'm around from 3:30pm till I pass out.
Not, sure what that translates to in Reichstag Time :D
Hell we get enough people we can make it an Event "JUG BRAWL 2015!" P47 with the best score earns bragging rights as the baddest JUG!
FYI: I will be recording and posting all of my wins on youtube and than I'm gonna but the final score in my sig to compensate for my lack of self esteem :banana:
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A plane as manly as that should be called a "November" :lol
Sure, let's set a Euro friendly time to do this. Should be interesting
D jugs are manly. M and N are Mary and Nancy. ;)
Wiley.
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D jugs are manly. M and N are Mary and Nancy. ;)
Wiley.
All jugs are manly, say compared to any AC with a cross on it :t
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I don't think any jug should be perked. I am actually quite suprised they are as low eny as they are (relative to fighter base, but even the 50 cals limit it in the attack mode). They just cannot out run many of the super E fighters and they cannot out turn many of the turn fighters (limited to the D11) so that being said, IMO, they rate in the top 25% of fighter base planes as it can turn a lil better than the E fighters and can out run many of the turn fighters. But it is not like the F4U4 where it strengths in both turning ability and speed. IMO what makes a plane perkable is its overall level speed as that is a substantial part to staying alive longer in the MA and being able to extend away in certain situations.
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I agree with all that you say violator, but in perkage discussions people often cite the p47M as a perkable plane, which i find weird considering theres another jug with slightly worse performance but can carry more ords than any other fighter in the game and has the longest range of any fighter in the game.
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I agree with all that you say violator, but in perkage discussions people often cite the p47M as a perkable plane, which i find weird considering theres another jug with slightly worse performance but can carry more ords than any other fighter in the game and has the longest range of any fighter in the game.
They don't know what they are talking about.
The P47M is no where near as deadly as the spit16, P51, or even the 190D in fighter combat. The ord is grand on the P4740 but I am willing to bet that a group of 110s could do more damage to a base and town compared to the group of 47s simply because of the amount of damage the guns could cause to each. The P47 is not an easy plane to fly regardless of what some say on the BBS. Talking and flying are different scenarios. If you don't keep your speed or alt cap on a group of enemies, you will be put in a defensive position that is difficult to get out of if more con's begin to engage you. Most pilots in the MA have a hard time flying it. I'm not just saying that either. It is a tough plane to be effective in the MA style setting.
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They don't know what they are talking about.
. . . The ord is grand on the P4740 but I am willing to bet that a group of 110s could do more damage to a base and town compared to the group of 47s simply because of the amount of damage the guns could cause to each. . . .
I don't think so but what I need to do is try the 110 and see for myself.
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I don't think so but what I need to do is try the 110 and see for myself.
4-5 110s will completely wreck a whole base and town to the point of capture. After the p47 release all their ord, destroying buildings and ack( if you don't get them with rockets) will be difficult. The cannons on the 110 take attack mode to a whole nother level, while also detracking tanks and popping tourets on the field a lot easier.
Look I've had many run ins and flown with p47s during the FSOs and Scenarios. One of their biggest problems is not being able to extend away from fights after they attack. If the enemy planes capture the 6 spot getting away in a P47 is difficult if the enemy plane can go faster or have teammates for help to catch you. There only chance is attacking from High alt and keeping that atl cap. Once other enemy squads start rolling in over top you are dead meat. That is why it is tough to fly because staying in this position takes patients and skill. It is not like a 109K where you can use a lot of momentum in the defense to reverse the fights and still have E to catch them or excel to gain quick speed after a reversal. It is by definition a JUG a it sure as hell flies like one lol.
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4-5 110s will completely wreck a whole base and town to the point of capture. After the p47 release all their ord, destroying buildings and ack( if you don't get them with rockets) will be difficult. The cannons on the 110 take attack mode to a whole nother level, while also detracking tanks and popping tourets on the field a lot easier.
Look I've had many run ins and flown with p47s during the FSOs and Scenarios. One of their biggest problems is not being able to extend away from fights after they attack. If the enemy planes capture the 6 spot getting away in a P47 is difficult if the enemy plane can go faster or have teammates for help to catch you. There only chance is attacking from High alt and keeping that atl cap. Once other enemy squads start rolling in over top you are dead meat. That is why it is tough to fly because staying in this position takes patients and skill. It is not like a 109K where you can use a lot of momentum in the defense to reverse the fights and still have E to catch them or excel to gain quick speed after a reversal. It is by definition a JUG a it sure as hell flies like one lol.
P47, doesn't need to run! (http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r561/folanjohnp1/P47N-N1K_zpsed4fbccc.png)
I think the BF110 is the only Attack Aircraft that can put down more punishment than the P47, and it isn't nearly as capable of a fighter.
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P47, doesn't need to run! (http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r561/folanjohnp1/P47N-N1K_zpsed4fbccc.png)
I think the BF110 is the only Attack Aircraft that can put down more punishment than the P47, and it isn't nearly as capable of a fighter.
How about that P38L?
I'd say even the P38J would give the P47s a run for their money in the attack and fighter categories.
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How about that P38L?
P-38L is the best JABO/fighter combination. Too bad only a tiny fraction of the player population have the slightest idea how to fly them.
P47 is a better bomb truck, and 110 is a better suicide strafer - the 38 eats both of them at low alt dogfights and brings about as much damage if the player can keep it from becoming a lawndart.
In AH, with the abused F3, Panzer damage model, and some unmodeled real life limitations, the A20 is also a top JABO with decent fighter capabilities.
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How about that P38L?
I'd say even the P38J would give the P47s a run for their money in the attack and fighter categories.
The problem with the P-38L is it is on the average a one pass plane on airfields or tank bases without damage where as the 47 is usually good for two passes. These are averages of course. I have taken damaged on both planes in the first pass and I have made three passes without damage but very rarely in the 38.
The 38 average damage is loss of an engine so I often return to base.
The P-38 is still my favorite plane.
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P47, doesn't need to run! (http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r561/folanjohnp1/P47N-N1K_zpsed4fbccc.png)
I think the BF110 is the only Attack Aircraft that can put down more punishment than the P47, and it isn't nearly as capable of a fighter.
showing a pic of killing some noob or AFK in a 47 don't say a single thing.
the 47 is NOT a "fighter" and should most definitely run from my KI if the pilot cares at all about score :t
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The pilot is the fighter, not the aircraft. Those planes that out turn everyone else are fun though. :devil
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How about that P38L?
I'd say even the P38J would give the P47s a run for their money in the attack and fighter categories.
I think the P38L is great, but it doesn't have the Speed and dive characteristics that the P47(and/or F4U) does. Your chief argument is that the P47 doesn't have enough speed on the deck to get out of trouble, this would be even more of a problem with the P38.
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4-5 110s will completely wreck a whole base and town to the point of capture. After the p47 release all their ord, destroying buildings and ack( if you don't get them with rockets) will be difficult. The cannons on the 110 take attack mode to a whole nother level, while also detracking tanks and popping tourets on the field a lot easier.
Look I've had many run ins and flown with p47s during the FSOs and Scenarios. One of their biggest problems is not being able to extend away from fights after they attack. If the enemy planes capture the 6 spot getting away in a P47 is difficult if the enemy plane can go faster or have teammates for help to catch you. There only chance is attacking from High alt and keeping that atl cap. Once other enemy squads start rolling in over top you are dead meat. That is why it is tough to fly because staying in this position takes patients and skill. It is not like a 109K where you can use a lot of momentum in the defense to reverse the fights and still have E to catch them or excel to gain quick speed after a reversal. It is by definition a JUG a it sure as hell flies like one lol.
I don't think you're giving the jug enough credit as a LW arena contender. For the score potato, if you fly it to its strengths (basically what you said) you can achieve great results. Once you get to know the AC, you can surprise a lot of people in the typical LWA ride. I personally don't fly smart - I would rather mix it up and a lot of times, once I commit, I am in it till it's over. But that doesn't mean a pilot can't achieve a great KD and KT with the P-47; especially the M.
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The pilot is the fighter, not the aircraft. Those planes that out turn everyone else are fun though. :devil
But we are not always talking about fighting first. If I want to hit a hanger as an example in a near full or full red dar-bar sector I will take the P47 D40. The P47 gives me good escape velocity allowing me to extend and reset with alt, then fight. With less of a dar-bar I choose the P-38L since I expect to drop and fight without having to escape overwhelming odds.
Got to try the 110 to see how it fares.
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But we are not always talking about fighting first. If I want to hit a hanger as an example in a near full or full red dar-bar sector I will take the P47 D40. The P47 gives me good escape velocity allowing me to extend and reset with alt, then fight. With less of a dar-bar I choose the P-38L since I expect to drop and fight without having to escape overwhelming odds.
Got to try the 110 to see how it fares.
Ink said the P-47 isn't a fighter. We all, including Ink, know that it is. It just doesn't have the slow speed turn performance of the Ki-84. Whether you fight aggressively in the P-47 is up to the pilot. Whether you feel the need for good slow speed turn performance to fight aggressively is up to the pilot. You seem to be talking about something else.
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I think the P38L is great, but it doesn't have the Speed and dive characteristics that the P47(and/or F4U) does. Your chief argument is that the P47 doesn't have enough speed on the deck to get out of trouble, this would be even more of a problem with the P38.
The deck speeds of the P-38L and P-47D40 are practically the same. The 38 builds energy a lot faster than the 47 though.
What makes the difference is the attack profile - with the 47 you can come out of the dive at 550 and keep on running. With the 38 you are forced to release the bombs from a higher altitude and pull out at a lower speed, but better total energy. So for the defenders, the P-47 is much harder to stop, while the 38 will turn into an A2A threat much sooner, requiring a much shorter "extending" phase (coming out with more energy and a much better climb rate).
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Ink said the P-47 isn't a fighter. We all, including Ink, know that it is. It just doesn't have the slow speed turn performance of the Ki-84. Whether you fight aggressively in the P-47 is up to the pilot. Whether you feel the need for good slow speed turn performance to fight aggressively is up to the pilot. You seem to be talking about something else.
:t
ya its a fighter...just not a good one.... :neener:
all kidding aside....
to me you should use a tool made for the job....you wanna fight spits and brews twisting and turning...the 47 is NOT the plane for that....
(lepape as good as he was still only lasted 30 seconds against my KI)
you wanna bomb the crap outta the enemy and then have enough ammo to take out some enemy by flying smart and staying fast....thats where the 47 really shines...bomber hunting also....awesome bird for that(but there are better)
so no it is not a "fighter" any of the real fighters
spits
LA
KI84
N1k
109's
(and many more)
the 47 stands very little chance against those... in a typical MA fight....and absolutely NO chance in a equal E...equal Stick fight such as you would find in the DA.
to me the 47 is an Attack/fighter....Attack being its main roll fighter being secondary.
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Good points Ink but what you're saying is it simply depends on what your target is flying. :aok
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I think I've met Ink twice in the MA, he was in a KI-84 and me a P-47. Both times I came into the fight under 10K and he was having a blast on the deck engaged in a furball. I got him both times. Don't remember if I made it out, and could care less. My point is, the Jug is effective in the LWA. Don't listen to the hype.
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showing a pic of killing some noob or AFK in a 47 don't say a single thing.
the 47 is NOT a "fighter" and should most definitely run from my KI if the pilot cares at all about score :t
(lepape as good as he was still only lasted 30 seconds against my KI)
Geez dude, don't be so modest.
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The proper way to fly a Jug is to actaully fly a KI84, so you can do cool flips and tumbles before some picktard in a Jug saws your wing off. :banana:
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Geez dude, don't be so modest.
Stay calm, he said it's due to the difference in aircraft performance. :aok
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Stay calm, he said it's due to the difference in aircraft performance. :aok
I am calm. You can tell by my deep, rhythmic breathing. :)
He said My Ki, not the Ki.
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Update:
As someone said earlier it appears I'm doing just fine in the D 40, which is pretty cool given my initial problems with the aircraft. After tooling about in my stubby little FM2, the 47 has helped me re-learn my bnz skills, and I'm pretty sure I've ticked off a lot of guys who never saw me coming. :devil
It's nice to add another bird to my stable as I do tend to get bored flying the same models all the time. At any rate, I appreciate all the advice you guys have given me.
That said, are there any cool trick moves you can pull off in the jug? Y'know, stuff that's slightly Latrobish? :)
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well theres the tail
Update:
As someone said earlier it appears I'm doing just fine in the D 40, which is pretty cool given my initial problems with the aircraft. After tooling about in my stubby little FM2, the 47 has helped me re-learn my bnz skills, and I'm pretty sure I've ticked off a lot of guys who never saw me coming. :devil
It's nice to add another bird to my stable as I do tend to get bored flying the same models all the time. At any rate, I appreciate all the advice you guys have given me.
That said, are there any cool trick moves you can pull off in the jug? Y'know, stuff that's slightly Latrobish? :)
slip Latrobe does :devil :devil.
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(http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r561/folanjohnp1/P47Escort6_zpsca5d4b93.jpg) This just in! P47N is better than the 163 :P
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I am calm. You can tell by my deep, rhythmic breathing. :)
He said My Ki, not the Ki.
I'll take a wild guess that it was because Ink was fighting in "his" Ki not "the" Ki. ;)
It's actually unusual for somebody to make the point that they had an aircraft performance advantage which points to modesty not ego.
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how you fly obviously plays a part in it.....
if you are attacking lo cons with friends any "fighter" can be effective...hell a P40 is badarse in that situation....
attack that same gang from the other side and see how well that P40 does... :D
Geez dude, don't be so modest.
haha
ya the KI I fly I refer to as mine ;)
I speak the truth sorry you cant see that for what it is...
I fought Lepape in HIS jug...he is the best I ever saw in a jug did some amazing moves....yet still died shortly after we engaged....that's just fact.
The Ki is far better at actually "fighting" then the 47 is. :aok
no matter HOW good the 47 driver is....it is just not meant for Slow TnBing....
I know as anyone worth his salt knows you fight the pilot not the plane...
but when the planes capabilities are so far different from one another it does not matter how good the stick is, the one is the crappy plane will lose...the tool he is using is just not right for the job.....
to be "effective" in the MA....or an "effective fighter in the MA" are to totally different things.
I'll take a wild guess that it was because Ink was fighting in "his" Ki not "the" Ki. ;)
It's actually unusual for somebody to make the point that they had an aircraft performance advantage which points to modesty not ego.
perfect :aok
I would not have won that fight if not for the awesomeness of the KI....jug vs jug...would have been the exact opposite....except even faster :rofl
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The proper way to fly a Jug is to actaully fly a KI84, so you can do cool flips and tumbles before some picktard in a Jug saws your wing off. :banana:
:rofl
love it :aok
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Update:
As someone said earlier it appears I'm doing just fine in the D 40, which is pretty cool given my initial problems with the aircraft. After tooling about in my stubby little FM2, the 47 has helped me re-learn my bnz skills, and I'm pretty sure I've ticked off a lot of guys who never saw me coming. :devil
It's nice to add another bird to my stable as I do tend to get bored flying the same models all the time. At any rate, I appreciate all the advice you guys have given me.
That said, are there any cool trick moves you can pull off in the jug? Y'know, stuff that's slightly Latrobish? :)
As I mentioned before. Work on rolling the plane all the way over before you begin to place the shot during a rolling scissors. The quicker you roll the better. The important thing is to keep the nose up after you do the roll.
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I dont think anyone mentioned it (might of missed it)
I mean if you absolutely have to fly the jug.. :neener:
...with all the guns on the 47 you should not have them all converge at one spot..
spread it out a bit...
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I fly my Jugs with 6 Guns. I don't see why Convergence would matter, its all about preference really.
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I fly my Jugs with 6 Guns. I don't see why Convergence would matter, its all about preference really.
Why not just fly the p51 instead? Flying with 6 guns defeats the purpose. You need those 8 guns to take down bombers and planes more quickly instead of losing all of your E having to shoot longer.
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Why not just fly the p51 instead? Flying with 6 guns defeats the purpose. You need those 8 guns to take down bombers and planes more quickly instead of losing all of your E having to shoot longer.
P47 is the better fighter IMO, better roll and low speed handling takes damage better, honestly I could go on and on. the extra 2 50cals seem redundant to me as well. You hit someone within proper convergence you will never know the difference. It's also good for saving weight while also having a nice long firing time. I do take 8 Fifty cals if im going Buff hunting, but usually ill up german iron to kill buffs.
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P47 is the better fighter IMO, better roll and low speed handling takes damage better, honestly I could go on and on. the extra 2 50cals seem redundant to me as well. You hit someone within proper convergence you will never know the difference. It's also good for saving weight while also having a nice long firing time. I do take 8 Fifty cals if im going Buff hunting, but usually ill up german iron to kill buffs.
The p51 capitalizes on E retainment and E gathering, flap deployment, turning ability, roll rate, exceleration, top speed, and dive rates are about equal given gravity and mass. The only thing the P47 has the advantage in is the 2 extra 50 cals that could potentially finish the enemy off more quickly in snap shots a quick shot attempts, the extra ord it can carry, which isn't that much more, and maybe 3 extra minutes of gas..
You simply cannot be as effective and quick in the P47 as you can in the P51, unless the 2 extra 50 cals finish your engagement more quickly, which is the point of the 2 extra 50 cals.
I think the P51B would be a good fight against the P47s. But he D clearly out matches it.
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The p51 capitalizes on E retainment and E gathering, flap deployment, turning ability, roll rate, exceleration, top speed, and dive rates are about equal given gravity and mass. The only thing the P47 has the advantage in is the 2 extra 50 cals that could potentially finish the enemy off more quickly in snap shots a quick shot attempts, the extra ord it can carry, which isn't that much more, and maybe 3 extra minutes of gas..
You simply cannot be as effective and quick in the P47 as you can in the P51, unless the 2 extra 50 cals finish your engagement more quickly, which is the point of the 2 extra 50 cals.
I think the P51B would be a good fight against the P47s. But he D clearly out matches it.
The P47M has the advantage in climb rate on WEP, it also holds a speed advantage over 15k on WEP. This means the P47M accelerates faster than the p51 while on WEP and out runs it above 15k. Their flaps deploy at the same IAS but the P47 handles the lower speeds alot better. I know for a fact the P47 rolls better than the P51.
The extra 50s really don't make a difference for me, I'd rather save the weight and still have over 3000 rounds of ammunition. I don't fly the p51 because it isn't nearly as rugged and it isn't as capable in a low speed stall fight.
I think you seriously underestimate the P47s abilities, It was in fact fighter that broke the Luftwaffes back in the ETO.
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The P47M has the advantage in climb rate on WEP, it also holds a speed advantage over 15k on WEP. This means the P47M accelerates faster than the p51 while on WEP and out runs it above 15k. Their flaps deploy at the same IAS but the P47 handles the lower speeds alot better. I know for a fact the P47 rolls better than the P51.
The extra 50s really don't make a difference for me, I'd rather save the weight and still have over 3000 rounds of ammunition. I don't fly the p51 because it isn't nearly as rugged and it isn't as capable in a low speed stall fight.
I don't see where you think the p47 handles slow speed better, at low speeds the jug struggles to bring its nose up for a shot, and if you leave it at a nose down position after the roll you will be disadvantaged in the loop fight. It lacks excel potential, feels heavier the slower you get in the roll, and is a lot more sluggish at 3K when you are trying to get away from the fight. The P51 will easily out loop and out roll the P47 at slow speeds. There aren't any charts to prove that but flying experience. The P47 will not out climb the P51 in a good spiral climb rope. It is not as aerodynamic of a plane. I think you need some more experience in each. Can the P47 out climb the P51 to maximum alt capacity, if not that deafeats your premise. The P51 even performs much better in defensive positions compared to the P47 which gives it another advantage. The varience you see on the those charts are minimal compared to how each plane peforms regarding maximum potential.
I mean I'm not knocking on the P47 by any means. But the plane is what it is.
Nothing lacks a pilot from being the top fighter in any plane. While I think it is easier to be successful in faster late war planes in the late war, flying the plane to it's strenghts will bring great results 97% of the time, but the difficulty of plane strengths rise with plane selection. Hince the idea of ENY. Somtimes in the MA you just cannot escape the gang unless you are in a super fast plane.
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I don't see where you think the p47 handles slow speed better, at low speeds the jug struggles to bring its nose up for a shot, and if you leave it at a nose down position after the roll you will be disadvantaged in the loop fight. It lacks excel potential, feels heavier the slower you get in the roll, and is a lot more sluggish at 3K when you are trying to get away from the fight. The P51 will easily out loop and out roll the P47 at slow speeds. There aren't any charts to prove that but flying experience. The P47 will not out climb the P51 in a good spiral climb rope. It is not as aerodynamic of a plane. I think you need some more experience in each. Can the P47 out climb the P51 to maximum alt capacity, if not that deafeats your premise. The P51 even performs much better in defensive positions compared to the P47 which gives it another advantage. The varience you see on the those charts are minimal compared to how each plane peforms regarding maximum potential.
I mean I'm not knocking on the P47 by any means. But the plane is what it is.
I suppose I'm just going to have to agree to disagree.
I love aircraft debates as much as the next guy however, discrediting my points simply because I haven't had what you feel to be enough video game experience is a little insulting(not that I think the intent is malicious). The charts and recorded data ignore all bias that you an me have for any given aircraft so in actuality they are more creditable than either of our experiences, which is why I chose to reference them.
Anyhow this is a JUG thread so to get back on track, The P47 is not an aircraft optimized for low-alts, All the planes that outclass you on the deck become mortal at medium alts, at high alts there's only a hand full of planes that can match the JUG in performance.
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I don't see where you think the p47 handles slow speed better
I think it handles better at slow speeds. 51 has a terrible stall departure, 47 has a very stable recovery.
- oldman
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p47 has a very easy stall recovery while the p51 once you stall her at slow speeds she's not the quickest to get out of it
I don't see where you think the p47 handles slow speed better, at low speeds the jug struggles to bring its nose up for a shot, and if you leave it at a nose down position after the roll you will be disadvantaged in the loop fight. It lacks excel potential, feels heavier the slower you get in the roll, and is a lot more sluggish at 3K when you are trying to get away from the fight. The P51 will easily out loop and out roll the P47 at slow speeds. There aren't any charts to prove that but flying experience. The P47 will not out climb the P51 in a good spiral climb rope. It is not as aerodynamic of a plane. I think you need some more experience in each. Can the P47 out climb the P51 to maximum alt capacity, if not that deafeats your premise. The P51 even performs much better in defensive positions compared to the P47 which gives it another advantage. The varience you see on the those charts are minimal compared to how each plane peforms regarding maximum potential.
I mean I'm not knocking on the P47 by any means. But the plane is what it is.
Nothing lacks a pilot from being the top fighter in any plane. While I think it is easier to be successful in faster late war planes in the late war, flying the plane to it's strenghts will bring great results 97% of the time, but the difficulty of plane strengths rise with plane selection. Hince the idea of ENY. Somtimes in the MA you just cannot escape the gang unless you are in a super fast plane.
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I dont think anyone mentioned it (might of missed it)
I mean if you absolutely have to fly the jug.. :neener:
...with all the guns on the 47 you should not have them all converge at one spot..
spread it out a bit...
Worst P47 advice ever.
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Ink, I know you are a big ki84 fan, but much of your praises of the plane are exaggerated. I fought countless ki84s in the MA and remain unimpressed. In a P47, with a few kft under me, the ki84 is completely avoidable even when it has the advantage. Above 10,000 feet the P47D is faster and even climbs about the same on WEP. Above 20,000 where P47s were supposed to fight, the KI84 is a joke. Against the P47M the ki is outclassed unless the fight is turning circle a at under 200 mph... But then a zero is even better and that does not make it a great fighter.
The best turn/stall fights are done with planes that were not made for it. Take a B25 or a B26 in fighter mode (no drones, using the fixed guns) and you'll see.
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Ink, I know you are a big ki84 fan, but much of your praises of the plane are exaggerated. . . .
I think apples and oranges apply here. The Ki84 in a close turn fighter is deadly at the altitude most fights occur in AH. The 47 in its element is equally as deadly. Both are superior to the other fighter when out of their element.
With the M and the Ki I can greatly increase kills and K/D in the same time frame as compared to the P-38 as long as I stay in the fighters element. Not that the P-38 is not a great fighter but with the P-38 as we know is a favorite target requiring more defensive time spent drawing away from offensive moves.
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Most of you people are blinded by the "data". What plane "A" can do at this alt or that alt really doesn't have a lot to do with what a person CAN do with a plane. One guy says a P47 sucks at low alt, another says it good due to it's spin recovery..... blah blah blah... and then there is Lepape2.
All that "data' can be used as a base line, and even then when up against one of the "masters" in a certain plane you can pretty much throw even that out the window. We as game player get the chance to push the envelope much farther than any of the test pilots ever could so our data is going to be different than real world. Add on top of that fact that as a game there are certain VERY repeatable combinations of stick and rudder that people find fantastic maneuvers.
This is what bring up these "discussions" of people agreeing to disagree. The best answer to the OP is if you really want to know how to fly the Jug, pick one and spend every minute of game time for the next month or two flying it. Use it for bombing, fighting high alt and low. Use it to pick, and turn fight in a furball. Use it for base defense and attack. After 6 to 8 weeks you should have a pretty good idea of what it can and can't do in the game.
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I suppose I'm just going to have to agree to disagree.
I love aircraft debates as much as the next guy however, discrediting my points simply because I haven't had what you feel to be enough video game experience is a little insulting(not that I think the intent is malicious). The charts and recorded data ignore all bias that you an me have for any given aircraft so in actuality they are more creditable than either of our experiences, which is why I chose to reference them.
Anyhow this is a JUG thread so to get back on track, The P47 is not an aircraft optimized for low-alts, All the planes that outclass you on the deck become mortal at medium alts, at high alts there's only a hand full of planes that can match the JUG in performance.
I didn't mean to insult your experience but understanding how each plane flies to the max, regardless of chart abilities is a huge difference, especially for new players who are trying to learn. I have probably at least 5 more years of experience in each plane in dueling and the MA as well as many other planes that I can compare it with, as a matter of fact I just found last year how much the P47 needs to get rolled all the way over first if you are trying to do rolling scissors or BRD in order to keep the nose up. I have flown it a lot and just because someone only flies that plane doesnt necessarily make them the best in it. While I dont really look about the speed or climb charts, the P51 is much easier to handle and turns a lot better with and with out speed in the rolling scissors, and in the slow and fast fight. IMO the equal p47 pilot wouldn't stand a chance in a equal fight vs the P51. Which plane would you rather fight a Yak against? The only way a P47 would even have a chance is with an atl advantage and precise BnZ skills, the P51 has a much better chance at winning even the slow fight. Although, the yak turns slightly better than the P51. If you are attempting to rope a plane, you will do so much easier in a P51, where you shouldn't even do a rope in a P47.
I know for a fact the P51 has a much better chance at fighting 109s compared to the P47. 93% of fights happen below 10k so most of the time you fight at the P47s full potential.
IMO. I thought YUCCA was one of the best P47 sticks. I've never faught lepape. IMO one of the best 47 sticks out there is Messiah, even though he picks a lot, he uses the plane to its strengths and he fights with it well.
GIzz we need to hit up the DA and practice in these planes and we can work on some things, but I'll try to show you what I mean.
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Take a P-47 and P-51 and fly continuous max turn loops or barrel rolls in tight formation. Switch aircraft and repeat. :old:
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Most of you people are blinded by the "data". What plane "A" can do at this alt or that alt really doesn't have a lot to do with what a person CAN do with a plane. One guy says a P47 sucks at low alt, another says it good due to it's spin recovery..... blah blah blah... and then there is Lepape2.
All that "data' can be used as a base line, and even then when up against one of the "masters" in a certain plane you can pretty much throw even that out the window. We as game player get the chance to push the envelope much farther than any of the test pilots ever could so our data is going to be different than real world. Add on top of that fact that as a game there are certain VERY repeatable combinations of stick and rudder that people find fantastic maneuvers.
This is what bring up these "discussions" of people agreeing to disagree. The best answer to the OP is if you really want to know how to fly the Jug, pick one and spend every minute of game time for the next month or two flying it. Use it for bombing, fighting high alt and low. Use it to pick, and turn fight in a furball. Use it for base defense and attack. After 6 to 8 weeks you should have a pretty good idea of what it can and can't do in the game.
:huh No offense, but proof read man. Think of the reader.
The games FM is all biased on that "Data" which was collected by test pilots pushing the envelope of the planes.
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. . . The best answer to the OP is if you really want to know how to fly the Jug, pick one and spend every minute of game time for the next month or two flying it. Use it for bombing, fighting high alt and low. Use it to pick, and turn fight in a furball. Use it for base defense and attack. After 6 to 8 weeks you should have a pretty good idea of what it can and can't do in the game.
Well posted. Best advice for sure.
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The games FM is all biased on that "Data" which was collected by test pilots pushing the envelope of the planes.
I'm sure you meant to write "based" not "biased". The aerodynamic flight model is as accurate as Hitech can make it. Individual aircraft of the same model will often have performance differences. The FM is based on the published data and likely represents the high end of average actual performance before engine wear and other damage degrade performance.
Fugi wants to disregard data in a discussion of aircraft performance. If you fly a Jug for a month what do you learn? You learn the data.
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I didn't have time to proof read my bad.
But the charts are like stock charts. They only tell you its base performance measure but don't tell you the actual dynamic of the company.
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I didn't have time to proof read my bad.
But the charts are like stock charts. They only tell you its base performance measure but don't tell you the actual dynamic of the company.
I believe our performance data is more consistent. I agree that limited performance data doesn't tell you the whole story.
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In my experience, if the fight get's under 200 IAS, all the P-47 models will turn inside a P-51 in about 1.5 to 2 turns. Again, in my experience, the P-47s as modeled in AH are much better (pilot being equal or close) in a slow turn fight. I base that on thousands of hours in the AH arenas flying a jug, and welcome someone willing to test my statements.
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I'm sure you meant to write "based" not "biased".
Oops *blushes*
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I'm sure you meant to write "based" not "biased". The aerodynamic flight model is as accurate as Hitech can make it. Individual aircraft of the same model will often have performance differences. The FM is based on the published data and likely represents the high end of average actual performance before engine wear and other damage degrade performance.
Fugi wants to disregard data in a discussion of aircraft performance. If you fly a Jug for a month what do you learn? You learn the data.
No, you learn MORE than the data. As this is a game a real life pilot could only push their aircraft say to 95% due to that thing.... ummmm.... death. We only the other hand can push them to 110% and more. We can do maneuvers that would have had real pilots eyeballs rolling around the floor of their planes because we don't have those silly limitations like.....ummmmm.... death!
Flying in this game using the "data" as your bench mark is like flying with the stall limiter on. Your only using part of the potential you have available. Thats why those "masters" of some planes like yukka, and Lepape2 look like they are cheating because they understand and use the mechanics of the game over flight data. The only way to learn these things is to DO these things and the data says you can't.
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I didn't mean to insult your experience but understanding how each plane flies to the max, regardless of chart abilities is a huge difference, especially for new players who are trying to learn. I have probably at least 5 more years of experience in each plane in dueling and the MA as well as many other planes that I can compare it with, as a matter of fact I just found last year how much the P47 needs to get rolled all the way over first if you are trying to do rolling scissors or BRD in order to keep the nose up. I have flown it a lot and just because someone only flies that plane doesnt necessarily make them the best in it. While I dont really look about the speed or climb charts, the P51 is much easier to handle and turns a lot better with and with out speed in the rolling scissors, and in the slow and fast fight. IMO the equal p47 pilot wouldn't stand a chance in a equal fight vs the P51. Which plane would you rather fight a Yak against? The only way a P47 would even have a chance is with an atl advantage and precise BnZ skills, the P51 has a much better chance at winning even the slow fight. Although, the yak turns slightly better than the P51. If you are attempting to rope a plane, you will do so much easier in a P51, where you shouldn't even do a rope in a P47.
I know for a fact the P51 has a much better chance at fighting 109s compared to the P47. 93% of fights happen below 10k so most of the time you fight at the P47s full potential.
IMO. I thought YUCCA was one of the best P47 sticks. I've never faught lepape. IMO one of the best 47 sticks out there is Messiah, even though he picks a lot, he uses the plane to its strengths and he fights with it well.
GIzz we need to hit up the DA and practice in these planes and we can work on some things, but I'll try to show you what I mean.
I would love a friendly excursion to the DA! Lets get this set up, JUG BRAWL than PONY VS JUG FFA DEATH MATCH!
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No, you learn MORE than the data. As this is a game a real life pilot could only push their aircraft say to 95% due to that thing.... ummmm.... death. We only the other hand can push them to 110% and more. We can do maneuvers that would have had real pilots eyeballs rolling around the floor of their planes because we don't have those silly limitations like.....ummmmm.... death!
Flying in this game using the "data" as your bench mark is like flying with the stall limiter on. Your only using part of the potential you have available. Thats why those "masters" of some planes like yukka, and Lepape2 look like they are cheating because they understand and use the mechanics of the game over flight data. The only way to learn these things is to DO these things and the data says you can't.
When you say 110% you leave the realm of reality. Data is information. You learn the information and ignore the BS and you'll do fine.
In my experience people who talk 110% rarely manage more than 85% and never hit 100%. I know it's just an expression that means you need to try harder because you aren't doing your best but I hear it used as if it's literally true.
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Oops *blushes*
I just wanted to correct the typo before Hitech saw it. :lol
Then I quoted the wrong post. :bhead
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I would love a friendly excursion to the DA! Lets get this set up, JUG BRAWL than PONY VS JUG FFA DEATH MATCH!
Yeah I'm down for some fun DA practice duels. Non of that super duper serial stuff though. I'll give u a hollar next time I'm on!
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I would love a friendly excursion to the DA! Lets get this set up, JUG BRAWL than PONY VS JUG FFA DEATH MATCH!
Ohh this has promise. ==== :rock
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Ink, I know you are a big ki84 fan, but much of your praises of the plane are exaggerated. I fought countless ki84s in the MA and remain unimpressed. In a P47, with a few kft under me, the ki84 is completely avoidable even when it has the advantage. Above 10,000 feet the P47D is faster and even climbs about the same on WEP. Above 20,000 where P47s were supposed to fight, the KI84 is a joke. Against the P47M the ki is outclassed unless the fight is turning circle a at under 200 mph... But then a zero is even better and that does not make it a great fighter.
The best turn/stall fights are done with planes that were not made for it. Take a B25 or a B26 in fighter mode (no drones, using the fixed guns) and you'll see.
:rofl
your statement is moronic....."I fought countless ki's in MA all the time"
pfft 90% of the MA cant fight period.....have zero clue as to how to Avoid a HOIng 47.....
because thats ALL she is good for...staying fast and HOing everything.
you show me...DA is that way....you kill me even once at any ALT...... I will come in here and say I was wrong....
I will say I was WRONG and the 47 is a Match for the KI......
someone else who loved the 47....flew it thinking it was quite the fighter in the MA :rolleyes:...took offense at my down talking of his 47....
we went to DA.....score was 12-0
we fought at every ALT all the way up to 25K....how bad do you think he felt afterward?
he just realized the 47 is not meant for TnBing because its not...you who take offense at what I say about it.....kinda make me laugh....
talk about getting your panties all twisted up....
calling a dead man dead is no offense.
again though..... be more then willing to break and shatter your high image of your "fighting" 47.
EDIT
and NO my advice to spread out the 8 gun......convergence in the 47 is not bad advice. :rolleyes:
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:rofl
your statement is moronic....."I fought countless ki's in MA all the time"
pfft 90% of the MA cant fight period.....have zero clue as to how to Avoid a HOIng 47.....
because thats ALL she is good for...staying fast and HOing everything.
you show me...DA is that way....you kill me even once at any ALT...... I will come in here and say I was wrong....
I will say I was WRONG and the 47 is a Match for the KI......
someone else who loved the 47....flew it thinking it was quite the fighter in the MA :rolleyes:...took offense at my down talking of his 47....
we went to DA.....score was 12-0
we fought at every ALT all the way up to 25K....how bad do you think he felt afterward?
he just realized the 47 is not meant for TnBing because its not...you who take offense at what I say about it.....kinda make me laugh....
talk about getting your panties all twisted up....
calling a dead man dead is no offense.
again though..... be more then willing to break and shatter your high image of your "fighting" 47.
Evidently there is something about the P-47 that's personal with you? No one is arguing the KI-84 doesn't turn better that the P-47
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It's funny when Ink says the Ki-84 will win with equal pilots and E and the counter argument starts with a huge E advantage. ;)
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But the charts are like stock charts. They only tell you its base performance measure but don't tell you the actual dynamic of the company.
The charts themselves need to be taken with a grain of salt. For some planes more than others then do not represent the typical configuration that you will meet in the arena. For example, the P-47, more than most planes is significantly affected by its fuel load, just because it carries so much of it - in the case of the N the fuel load is insane and equivalent to 5 and 1/2 fully fuelled 109s. The charts typically have the planes with close to 100% which will have a much greater effect on a Jug than on a 109/Yak/La7 or one of the other planes with a gas tanks the size of a Cola bottle. A more extreme example - look at the charts for the Mosquito VI. They say 3200 fpm WEP climb at sea level, when I know it does much more than that. The chart is for a fuel load that will last for an hour and bombs in the bay... not exactly the way it will loaded when ready to dogfight.
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Evidently there is something about the P-47 that's personal with you? No one is arguing the KI-84 doesn't turn better that the P-47
did you not read what I responded to....
no I do not have a problem with the 47..... its a nice plane and in its roll it is extremely awesome.....
I just like people getting the right info is all....
people talk about the 47 like you can go TnB with the True TnBers....that is false you can not...well you can try but you wont get very far...even after mastering the 47...it is just not a TnBer....
thats my point...no issue with the 47.
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did you not read what I responded to....
no I do not have a problem with the 47..... its a nice plane and in its roll it is extremely awesome.....
I just like people getting the right info is all....
people talk about the 47 like you can go TnB with the True TnBers....that is false you can not...well you can try but you wont get very far...even after mastering the 47...it is just not a TnBer....
thats my point...no issue with the 47.
I've read every one of your responses and will encourage you to go back and read mine. Again, yes the KI-84 is a better turn and burn AC than the P-47, but yet many P-47 pilots manage to beat that turny plane in the MA. I've seen you fall to worst AC. It's the MA and the situation matters. That's the point right? Figuring out a way to beat your opponent in the MA with the statical odds against you
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The P47 is actaully not great in the HO shots. It has a heavy gunpackage but machine guns rely on volume. High closure rates mean even with 8 guns you won't be able to put as many rounds on target.
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The charts themselves need to be taken with a grain of salt. For some planes more than others then do not represent the typical configuration that you will meet in the arena. For example, the P-47, more than most planes is significantly affected by its fuel load, just because it carries so much of it - in the case of the N the fuel load is insane and equivalent to 5 and 1/2 fully fuelled 109s. The charts typically have the planes with close to 100% which will have a much greater effect on a Jug than on a 109/Yak/La7 or one of the other planes with a gas tanks the size of a Cola bottle. A more extreme example - look at the charts for the Mosquito VI. They say 3200 fpm WEP climb at sea level, when I know it does much more than that. The chart is for a fuel load that will last for an hour and bombs in the bay... not exactly the way it will loaded when ready to dogfight.
You just need to look at all the available data. The charts in the plane comparison on the AH main page are the same charts shown in the hanger. The difference is that the hanger chart also shows the tested weight.
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When you say 110% you leave the realm of reality. Data is information. You learn the information and ignore the BS and you'll do fine.
In my experience people who talk 110% rarely manage more than 85% and never hit 100%. I know it's just an expression that means you need to try harder because you aren't doing your best but I hear it used as if it's literally true.
no, it's not leaving the realm of reality if your using the data as a base line.
All Im saying here is the data will only get you so far, and practice and trying things beyond what the data says will get you farther.
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:rofl
your statement is moronic....."I fought countless ki's in MA all the time"
pfft 90% of the MA cant fight period.....have zero clue as to how to Avoid a HOIng 47.....
because thats ALL she is good for...staying fast and HOing everything.
It is true that I am above average in the arena, but in no way the best player around. When you fight lots of KI84s and lots of P47s driven by different players things average out. If the KI84 was that good, you'd see a lot of it in the arena - you don't. removing the P51s and spits due to "fame factor", I see more La's Yaks and 109s than ki84s. Yes, it is very good, but it has lots of limitations. The P-47 is not a pure turn fighter, but so are most 1943 and onward planes. The 47 can turn good enough to take a large fraction of the MA population into a knife fight and be successful in it.
DA duels are a different thing. There it is all about mastering the double Immelman or one of the other 3 opening moves and hanging on the prop with flaps full out and other rubbish. These are the moves that win duels and get you killed very fast in the MA. In a furball I am just waiting to see F4Us pull out their gears against someone.
The last quoted sentence says to me you have some hurt feelings or something against the 47. This is a thread for someone that wanted advice on how to fly the Jug and you think that "stay fast and HO everything" is a good advice? Same goes for your advice to spread the convergence of the .50s - not good.
You just need to look at all the available data. The charts in the plane comparison on the AH main page are the same charts shown in the hanger. The difference is that the hanger chart also shows the tested weight.
That is what I was referring to. The Mosquito is tested with a very high weight, well above its realistic MA configuration (100% fuel is 74 minutes at full throttle, and people do not dogfight with bombs in the bay, unless they forget they have them, or the get cocky). I think that the Jugs are tested with near 100% fuel.
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I've read every one of your responses and will encourage you to go back and read mine. Again, yes the KI-84 is a better turn and burn AC than the P-47, but yet many P-47 pilots manage to beat that turny plane in the MA. I've seen you fall to worst AC. It's the MA and the situation matters. That's the point right? Figuring out a way to beat your opponent in the MA with the statical odds against you
yes for sure that is the point :aok for me and some others..not most though.
and in the MA we all know that any plane can be killed by any plane...I have killed 262's with my Hurri and Zero's...
been killed by 110's in my KI....
that's the MA....but you cant (at least I don't) use flying and dieing in the MA as a measuring tool on how badarse a plane is.....
or what its true capabilities are in a dogfight....
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no, it's not leaving the realm of reality if your using the data as a base line.
All Im saying here is the data will only get you so far, and practice and trying things beyond what the data says will get you farther.
Please give an example of trying things beyond the data. I don't know what that means and I don't want to guess. Sometimes arguments are just confusion over definitions and examples can help to avoid that.
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It is true that I am above average in the arena, but in no way the best player around. When you fight lots of KI84s and lots of P47s driven by different players things average out. If the KI84 was that good, you'd see a lot of it in the arena - you don't. removing the P51s and spits due to "fame factor", I see more La's Yaks and 109s than ki84s. Yes, it is very good, but it has lots of limitations. The P-47 is not a pure turn fighter, but so are most 1943 and onward planes. The 47 can turn good enough to take a large fraction of the MA population into a knife fight and be successful in it.
DA duels are a different thing. There it is all about mastering the double Immelman or one of the other 3 opening moves and hanging on the prop with flaps full out and other rubbish. These are the moves that win duels and get you killed very fast in the MA. In a furball I am just waiting to see F4Us pull out their gears against someone.
The last quoted sentence says to me you have some hurt feelings or something against the 47. This is a thread for someone that wanted advice on how to fly the Jug and you think that "stay fast and HO everything" is a good advice? Same goes for your advice to spread the convergence of the .50s - not good.
That is what I was referring to. The Mosquito is tested with a very high weight, well above its realistic MA configuration (100% fuel is 74 minutes at full throttle, and people do not dogfight with bombs in the bay, unless they forget they have them, or the get cocky). I think that the Jugs are tested with near 100% fuel.
don't that tell you something.... :headscratch:
like I said 90% of the MA have zero clue on how fight....they rely on speed to survive....hence not many Ki's..... they have a high speed issue....THAT is why you dont see them common in the MA.
very few players are real deal fighters...most play all parts of the game....very few only fly fighters....only in fighter mode.
and most fly in a gang of green....
how many are like that? would you guess?
the only limitation the KI has is its lack of high speed control....but that is used for running.....and if people cant run away in a plane it wont get much use.
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That is what I was referring to. The Mosquito is tested with a very high weight, well above its realistic MA configuration (100% fuel is 74 minutes at full throttle, and people do not dogfight with bombs in the bay, unless they forget they have them, or the get cocky). I think that the Jugs are tested with near 100% fuel.
The Jugs are tested closer to 75% fuel except the N, which carries twice as much fuel and is tested at 100%. This skews the relative performance perception as you pointed out. That's why I suggest checking the hanger charts and doing your own testing at your preferred combat configuration.
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Please give an example of trying things beyond the data. I don't know what that means and I don't want to guess. Sometimes arguments are just confusion over definitions and examples can help to avoid that.
It's those spins, flips and things that some players can do in the game that would have the real pilots eyeballs rolling around on the floor. While HTC works very hard to keep the "physics" part of the equation close to the real data, there are maneuvers that some players can make that "physically". Watch some of Lepape2's films to see what I mean. Latrobe can make the 109s do things that would ruin a real pilots leather undies.
This is a computer game you can not feel that "seat of the pants" feeling so many pilots fly with. That limitation is also what allows some of these more wild maneuvers.
As I said, the data is a good base line, a good foundation, but to be one of the best your better off just flying the crap out of the plane.
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Those maneuvers can all be done in real aircraft and they aren't that hard on the pilot because the pilot is near the pivot point. Check out Rob Holland on utube. The tough part is pulling g and neg g in turns. Seeing an AH highlight video may create a false impression. I played with Lepape2 in the TA enough to respect his abilities and understand the limitations of those maneuvers. I never recommend them as a substitute for ACM. BTW that's me and Lapape in my current avatar. Tricks are fun but they aren't an example of going beyond the data. Tricks are just another expression of performance. Performance is described by data. Practice is optimized when you know what to practice and why.
P-47M http://youtu.be/YuTycIGXfno
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OK we'll just go with "as the instructor you can never be wrong" and so I won't press the point. As I said this being a game it is as far from real life. Much like a guy swinging an 8 foot sword like it was a saber. There are things you can do here that you couldn't in real life.
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OK we'll just go with "as the instructor you can never be wrong" and so I won't press the point. As I said this being a game it is as far from real life. Much like a guy swinging an 8 foot sword like it was a saber. There are things you can do here that you couldn't in real life.
Let's go with the trainer sometimes knows what he's talking about. You can press your point, just support it with something.
The real deal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRz6JpPrESE
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how about this?
I will go up against anyone needing help in the P47(whatever model) with the same, I will go up against whatever P47model one needs help with with the Ki84, and I will do the same viceversa! in the TA
after that, and if you think you really know your plane, I will oblige you to the DA so you can really kill me!
but lets please understand, that I have no ego to polish in this game, but I am here to help one learn their favorite plane........too many in here are letting their thoughts over ride their actual knowledge!
TC
( has seen a lot of contradicting info in this thread, that he feels he should offer a helping hand )
only here to help, Let's see if I can be of any help!
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I just wanna do that stall flippy thing.
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I just wanna do that stall flippy thing.
Stick to lower-left corner, rudder full right, keep throttle open - hold and be amazed.
The speed should be rather lowish, get your nose a little above the horizon and pop out a notch or two of flaps - these factors help to make it a cleaner maneuver and a quick recovery.
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I just wanna do that stall flippy thing.
Start by going almost straight up. Use 2 notches flaps. When speed drops to around 150 push full left stick then straight back while holding full left. At the same time you pull the stick back add full right rudder. Once you rotate play with the throttle and controls to stop the rotation and recover the stall. Once you get a feel for it you can use different climb angles, speeds and flap settings. Every aircraft responds differently and not all of them will do it. You can see some variations in my other airshow videos. We can't do the tumbles that Rob Holland does at this time but I'm hoping in the future they will be possible.
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In my experience, if the fight get's under 200 IAS, all the P-47 models will turn inside a P-51 in about 1.5 to 2 turns. . . .
Ammo, is this with flaps? How much flap if it is?
In regards to AH modeling and data, when I have dug deep into a planes performance information, I came out pleasantly surprised that HTC had incorporated so much detail in their models. I am guessing their total plane performance data base may be the best in the world.
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Ammo, is this with flaps? How much flap if it is?
In regards to AH modeling and data, when I have dug deep into a planes performance information, I came out pleasantly surprised that HTC had incorporated so much detail in their models. I am guessing their total plane performance data base may be the best in the world.
1-2 flaps usually allows me to outturn the pony in any jug
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Tried to spin it in the TA and then used it s couple of times in the MA. It's fun to do as a last ditch defense and it did help me avoid some cons for a moment or two. Mostly it's just fun.
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... it's just fun.
:aok
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Muzzy you should hang with the 56th if your Into jugs.....
Convergence better at one point 300 in my opinion.
Jug especially in MA can surprise a lot of the Turners and rocket propelled cannon rides (la-7). I came upon INk two weeks ago. JUG vs Ki84 around 10k. I went super aggressive on him and could tell who ever was flying the KI84 knew what they were doing. I attempted a few snapshots ,missed cut my losses and flew away. Staying would have put me within his envelope. I checked film later to see who it was. That's how I see any encounter going with the two planes and cartoon pilots who are familiar with their planes.
I FLy JUgs and that's about it and have gotten comfortable doing it.
Hub <S>
Hope to see ya out there!
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Ammo, is this with flaps? How much flap if it is?
In regards to AH modeling and data, when I have dug deep into a planes performance information, I came out pleasantly surprised that HTC had incorporated so much detail in their models. I am guessing their total plane performance data base may be the best in the world.
Yes sir, with flaps.
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Randy, generally never more than 3 notches.
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Randy, generally never more than 3 notches.
Thanks Ammo.
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Update: I tend to lose most of the 1v1 fights in a jug unless I have an advantage. Co alt co-e I'm usually dead. It's very difficult to work the situation to my advantage especially against good sticks.
"A good jug pilot would have beaten me in 3 turns." -Manurin
Ouch.
I'm constantly running into trouble at the merge. There doesn't seem to be a way to force an advantage and I can never get my nose back around after the first pass. If I go vertical, I slow down too much. If I try a high yo-yo I usually give up a deflection shot. If I extend, I'm just prolonging the inevitable. Even if I manage one or two passes I can't get a gun solution unless I HO. Not really sure how to deal with this other than to avoid 1v1's altogether.
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Muzzy the missing information is which aircraft you're fighting. If you turn against an aircraft with a turn advantage you're likely to have difficulties.
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What FLS said. I seem to keep bumping into you and your 47 quite a bit recently. I remember one night I kept coming back to fight you and HlyWd in your Jugs. I was in a 109G2 at the time. The 109G2 can be quite a challenge for a D40 (what you were flying I think). While the D40 can get inside a G2 for a little while with it's higher speed flaps, the G2 can easily match or out turn it once it gets slow enough to deploy its flaps. The G2 also has the huge advantage of climb rate and ability to build E quickly, so once the fight gets slow and flaps are introduced then the G2 will have a fairly easy time just taking the fight vertcial where a D40 (or any Jug) really struggles. I don't remember exactly how the fights played out (curse my horrid memory) but if you try to follow a plane that can out climb you into a climb without some excessive speed behind you then things will not end well for you. If you try to turn with a plane that can out turn you then same thing, it won't end well.
Knowing what the correct thing to do against certain planes in order to gain an advantage can take quite a while to learn as there are a lot of different planes you're going to meet in the skies and each one you are going to meet under slightly different circumstances. One fight you might merge with a Spit 16 Co-alt and Co-E. You might learn that doing "this" will gain you an advantage and win the fight. Then next fight you come across another Spit 16, but this time he has a slight alt-advantage. Now doing "this", which won you the fight last time, doesn't work and you get killed. Instead, doing "that" would have achieved victory.
I, or anyone else, can sit here all day and give you all the information in the world on how to win the fight, but the single best teacher in the world is experience; going out and trying it first hand yourself. All the info in this thread is excellent and will give you that much needed boost to accelerate your learning but there is a big difference between reading about something and then doing it first hand. Just stick to it, I can already see you becoming better with the Jug each time I run into you. :salute
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I feel Your pain Muzzy.
Study your decision points. That is the point in the merge where you make a decision on what to do next. The decision is simple. Can I gain an advantage or not? Which P47 you take, defines the number of, and types of options you have. A plane like a Ki84 gives you just about every option in the book where a D40's weight limits the options.
Now people like LilMark, can squeeze every ounce of performance out a P-47. I have not mastered the P-47 so I have to be careful in the first decision which is to merge or not. If I merge the next decision is did I win the merge or not. If not blow on through the merge. If you do win the merge then setup for the next merge or the kill.
As Latrobe posted, it takes practice to develop an eye to read the situation.
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Maybe posting a film or two of your fights will give people some ideas on where your going wrong. In a jug it could be just the timing or the start f your turn is off by a tiny bit and it is where your throwing away the fight. Once some of these jug guys see your fight they might be able to post a film doing what they do in the same situation and come out on top.
Most of your posts are vague situations of the fights. Whats needed is a more precise account and a film will do that.
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Its actually LilMak, and I agree with Randy1
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Speed, eight 50 cals at convergence, and the Lead turn is your friend in the jug. 90% of the enemy I face point their nose directly at me and look for the shot at merge. At about 800 yards, depending on closing speed, I'll pull lead to get a step ahead of them. If I can take advantage and get a crippling or kill shot, the fight is over that quick.
Speaking of, unlikely as it would seem with the ammo package the jug has, good gunnery IMO is the best skill to have in the MA. The longer you loiter trying to get the shot, the more vulnerable you become. This is true for all AC, but exasperated in an aircraft like the jug that doesn't build energy quickly
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The best way to kill a skilled co-E bandit who has a turn advantage is with a wingman. A co-E merge is not an even fight unless the aircraft performance is similar.
Fights generally end because the loser made a mistake, not because the winner did anything special to win.
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Muzzy, Latrobe already made the point that there is no recipe for success - which is a great thing by the way! This is why combat is still fun for me in AH after so many years.
What we can give you are just general advice on how to approach the fight and what to pay attention to, but the rest is you and your experience.
In 1 on 1 with the jug my advice to you is to be active rather than proactive. By this I mean do not wait to see the other player move and react to him - you have to be the one with the initiative. Try to lead with your move and if that does not work, break away early and disengage. Some planes were just not made for duels. The 190d is a great fighter in the MA and scenarios but it kinda sucks in duels - the P47 is somewhat similar.
To take the initiative, try to guess what the other player will do. Most players will repeat the same move over and over again - it is a good move that they are familiar with so if you react to it you play into their hands. Now do something before they get to execute their thing. For example, if they like to lead with a hard vertical pull, try to dive and pull into them before they start. Or roll 90 deg and pull some angle off - they will think that you are executing a poorly timed lead turn and will be tempted to turn after you instead of their original plane (use the jugs roll rate to quickly turn into them for a flat merge). Putting yourself in a slight disadvantage can work in your favor if it makes the other player change his plan and throw him off his comfort zone.
You want to beat the player, not his plane.
One final advice - if you decide that the fight is not going in your favor, disengage, and the other player calls you a runner, do the following: move your head position as high as possible, bend to look forward-down, and lower your pants. If he wants you to turn and fight again he should break off and give you room to do so.
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You know one of the hardest things for me to learn was how to get the proper separation before the merge, and then take advantage of that separation. I have a pretty good grasp now and that is the secret to the merge. All the diagrams make it look simple but it is not.
Reading the OP's original post again. I think not getting good separation was his first mistake. After that, he was pushing his P-47 to try to win a fight he already lost.
Ammo my bad and applogies to LilMak for the SP.
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Last night it was Yak 3's and A8's. The A8 fight quickly devolved into a low speed turn on the deck. Manurin was able to catch me in four turns.
I would say I have a solid understanding of every plane in the game, and I can usually formulate a strategy against all of them in my other rides. The one area where I lack expertise is turn radius and turn rate, especially at various speeds. Data on that is hard to find and there's no easy way to discover it yourself.
My experience told me there was a good chance the A8 would not be able to hold a turn at low speed against a jug, but obviously I was wrong, as my controls mushed out on me. Manurin said ir was a question of technique and perhaps he was right.
That said, I probably shouldn't have let the fight progress that far. I think the larger problem is that I am not used to fighting in a plane that can't go vertical or turn sharply in a duel. My usual rides are Yaks and FM2's and I generally know what to do with them in a duel, but my regular moves obviously don't work in a jug.
I will post some films in the near future.
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The one area where I lack expertise is turn radius and turn rate, especially at various speeds. Data on that is hard to find and there's no easy way to discover it yourself.
I have often posted two easy ways to compare low speed turn ability. Compare available g at 200 mph, in other words how much g load can you pull while maintaining 200 mph in a level turn.
You can also compare how slow you can fly and maintain 3g. Either way will show you comparative performance.
This works at any altitude and any weight so you can test your usual loadout at your usual altitude. Since you don't know what the bandit's weight will be, test the aircraft you'll be fighting against at 50% fuel for an average value.
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I'm not following. I go up and execute a turn trying to maintain 200 mph. How do I use that to find out what my rate and radius will be at other speeds and altitudes?
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I'm not following. I go up and execute a turn trying to maintain 200 mph. How do I use that to find out what my rate and radius will be at other speeds and altitudes?
It doesn't tell you rate and radius. It let's you compare relative turn performance between aircraft. You have to look at both your accelerometer to see the g load and the speedometer to see your speed. Film can help. The aircraft that can hold a higher g load at 200 mph has the better turn.
You can also compare by testing how slow you can fly and still hold 3g. At 3g the slower speed indicates the better turn.
Comparing speed at 3g is a good way to test different flap settings.
When you have the P-47 data you can test and compare the aircraft you fight against.
During a fight you won't be looking at speed and g, you'll be watching the bandit and listening to your stall horn. You might glance at speed occasionally to be sure you aren't too slow.
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Got it. Thanks! :aok
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You are really getting too deep into meadow muffins. Data is just that, data. What you want to know is simpler than reams of data. Do you want to get in a turn fight with a yak or a8 with a P-47? NO! If coE or near coE then merge but be very aware if you loose the merge, blow through it without a turn and extend. If the E deficit is too great, extend away with no merge and reset with a better E.
Can you kill an a8 or yak with a P-47? Absolutely but it must be a fight on your terms not theirs.
The P47 is damn deadly but it is a plane that requires patience.
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:headscratch: The Jug handly out turns the 190A8.
Perhaps your cutting throttle and dropping flaps to much.
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Do you want to get in a turn fight with a yak or a8 with a P-47? NO!
And you know that by testing comparative turn rates. Unless of course you test and find out that you can. :D
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I sometimes think I'm the only one that likes the D-25
Well, if I can't get a Mary or Nancy, I'll grab a D25 every time.. It doesn't turn as well as the Razorback, & doesn't have the performance of the D40, but it's a helluva plane..
Set a hard deck @ 10k & low speed of 200.. at least that's what I try to do, but mostly my greed takes over & I wind up with 3-4 smelling blood on my 6..
But when I fly with discipline, it's a great plane..
Downside = not a good jabo ride..
Wrngway <S>
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And you know that by testing comparative turn rates. Unless of course you test and find out that you can. :D
Actually, no. There are endless threads on what out turns what with a plethora of charts. Very few turns in a fight are flat and at the perfect turning speed.
The turn is used to gain an advantage but not always a gun solution.
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For example, the P-47, more than most planes is significantly affected by its fuel load, just because it carries so much of it..
Thanx for saying this..
Most people I see squeaking about how bad the jug is cram every damned thang on it they can [Fuel/Ammo/Ords] & then wonder why it doesn't do too well when that enemy dives on ya..
Muzzy My #1 piece of advise is to think carefully about your loadout.. get alt & speed ASAP, & then size up the situation.. I can't tell ya how many times I've been tempted to drop ords & go help "That Guy" with 4 cons on him.. ( I know the feeling ).. but what am I doing?? if the mission is to take out the <thingy> over at base <BlahBlah>, then that's what I should focus on.. but if I'm there to fight & have fun & stuff, then Hellz-To-the-Yeah I'm otw Bruh!!
If I wanna fight it, then I don't weigh it down with 1,000's of pounds of crap & tons of fuel.. I keep it light & nimble, & I use the max cruise to get to the area, & then set my hard deck & low speed.. (I personally use 10k & 200IAS.. if i'm below either of those, I'm in trouble..)..
it'll surprises me, it's very quick in it's maneuvers if it's fast & the snapshot with the 8's is fatal..
but you have to stay fast.. 200IAS is the absolute minimum..
My E & SA have to be on point at these times.. if I'm off (or that last beer got me..), then "I'm Down"..
My squaddies used to squeak at me for flyin it.. I'd just tell them,"cuz it's fun".. now they fly it with me.. :aok
Wrngway <S>
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Actually, no. There are endless threads on what out turns what with a plethora of charts. Very few turns in a fight are flat and at the perfect turning speed.
The turn is used to gain an advantage but not always a gun solution.
Randy is correct, the charts lie.
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Gee thanx I spent time reading instead of flying..
no I gotta go to bed ..
thanx ya bunch of schmuks....
Wrngway <S>
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Actually, no. There are endless threads on what out turns what with a plethora of charts. Very few turns in a fight are flat and at the perfect turning speed.
Comparative turn rate doesn't change in a vertical fight. I already pointed out that you won't be making level turns at your exact best sustained turn rate. You don't know which aircraft turns better unless someone tests it.
Randy is correct, the charts lie.
Which chart is a lie? Please link one.
If the charts lie shouldn't you do your own testing?
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Which chart is a lie? Please link one.
All of them. The testing charts represent exactly the thing that was tested at those specific conditions - which rarely apply. It is like a frozen analog clock that always show the wrong time except for two very brief moments, twice a day.
Charts tell you the obvious - that a jug should not go into a turning contest with a Brewster for example. This applies at most speeds, alts and loadouts so can be taken as a rule. All but the most extreme cases are very fuzzy in how they apply to the real MA combat in the game. What actually happens is that the planes are at different speeds, alts and weights from what has been tested. On top of that they are not even at the same speeds relative to each other, hardly ever fly in sustained turns, and almost never fly around the same circle (usually have displaced centers).
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That doesn't fit any definition of a lie. You're just saying the tested weights, which are listed in the hanger, should be noted.
You are both supporting my suggestion to do your own comparative testing. :D
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That doesn't fit any definition of a lie. You're just saying the tested weights, which are listed in the hanger, should be noted.
You are both supporting my suggestion to do your own comparative testing. :D
They lie in the same sense as a broken clock that tells the time. The listed weights will not help you very much. Speed and climb curves do have a bit of use, but turning tests are useless. Testing is fun and provide for an interesting discussion on the bbs, but their application is almost nil.
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That doesn't fit any definition of a lie. You're just saying the tested weights, which are listed in the hanger, should be noted.
You are both supporting my suggestion to do your own comparative testing. :D
Were not saying you are wrong FLS. Just saying knowing to engage or not engage is the very first decision point and the most critical. If my plane turns slightly better than the red plane by data I sure do not want to engage just with that information. I have lost many of a fight thinking my plane could out turn a red plane. On the other hand I have won turn fights against turny planes because I used better throttle control.
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They lie in the same sense as a broken clock that tells the time. The listed weights will not help you very much. Speed and climb curves do have a bit of use, but turning tests are useless. Testing is fun and provide for an interesting discussion on the bbs, but their application is almost nil.
Charts have usefulness depending on how you try to use them.
If you're trying to use them as an absolutely indicator of performance, then you're right, they're only correct at specific points and configurations.
However, they're immensely useful, and almost always accurate, regarding relative aircraft performance. Sure, there are exceptions, but the majority of the time a plane that excels over another aircraft at X altitude, as well as X+Y altitude, will typically perform better at every altitude in-between.
The thing is, ACM is about relative aircraft performance, not absolute. Absolute performance data is only good for telling you what your aircraft will do in a very specific situation; relative performance data will tell you how your aircraft will perform against an opponent, and this is incredibly useful. Additionally, most (not all) planes suffer similar performance drops for weight and altitude, so again, charts are useful as long as we have at least two data points for each aircraft.
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Were not saying you are wrong FLS. Just saying knowing to engage or not engage is the very first decision point and the most critical. If my plane turns slightly better than the red plane by data I sure do not want to engage just with that information. I have lost many of a fight thinking my plane could out turn a red plane. On the other hand I have won turn fights against turny planes because I used better throttle control.
You were both criticizing comparative turn rates based on the well known limitations of absolute turn rates.
You will learn faster when you try to understand what is correct in my posts instead of looking for something that's wrong. Comparative turn rates are what you base your decisions on. The fact that you've already internalized much of that data neither invalidates it nor reduces the importance of learning it before you can make good decisions. :aok
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:headscratch: The Jug handly out turns the 190A8.
I agree..
Perhaps your cutting throttle and dropping flaps to much.
Could also be combat trim. I know I have to turn off combat trim or all sorts of bad things happen once flaps are deployed..
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Had a chance to watch Muzzy in action with the P-47 the other night. This guy is no slouch in the 47. He indeed killed a pesky 190A8 after I blew my throttle control and over shoot the 190.
The only mistake I saw was getting pulled under a high, red horde while engaged with another red near the deck. Now who hasn't done that.
Scca My point on the A8 is a good stick will take advantage of the long wep and keep pulling the nose up on a 47. Add to that long turn fighting in MA with a P-47 is asking for a pick. I know, I have killed many of them that way.
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... I blew my throttle control and over shot the 190.
Reducing throttle doesn't do much by itself to slow you down unless you're climbing. Increasing drag by increasing lift, as in a barrel roll, along with power off is more effective.
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Had a chance to watch Muzzy in action with the P-47 the other night. This guy is no slouch in the 47. He indeed killed a pesky 190A8 after I blew my throttle control and over shoot the 190.
The only mistake I saw was getting pulled under a high, red horde while engaged with another red near the deck. Now who hasn't done that.
Scca My point on the A8 is a good stick will take advantage of the long wep and keep pulling the nose up on a 47. Add to that long turn fighting in MA with a P-47 is asking for a pick. I know, I have killed many of them that way.
Ah, see, now your getting into more than the original statement. My only comment was that any 47 should easily out turn a 190A8 (and D9 for that matter) (even in real life (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/P-47_versus_FW-190.pdf))
Other than a few exceptional sticks, most A8's I encounter are dead meat (pardon the pun), regardless of their starting at an advantage or not. There are a few that can make them do magical stuff, but unless I know a reasonably good stick is in the area, I don't worry too much about an A8.
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On very basic item that is missing in this discussion is lift vector and how to use it. This is one of the fundamentals of effective BFM/ACM employment. If one doesn't have a basic understanding of it there is a huge part missing in the fighter pilot's bag of tricks. The guys and gals out in the real world understand it and use it as one of the basics for maneuvering against an opponent.
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Had a chance to watch Muzzy in action with the P-47 the other night. This guy is no slouch in the 47. He indeed killed a pesky 190A8 after I blew my throttle control and over shoot the 190.
The only mistake I saw was getting pulled under a high, red horde while engaged with another red near the deck. Now who hasn't done that.
Scca My point on the A8 is a good stick will take advantage of the long wep and keep pulling the nose up on a 47. Add to that long turn fighting in MA with a P-47 is asking for a pick. I know, I have killed many of them that way.
You're too kind sir. :salute
With regards to the A8 incident, I should add that I was facing a pretty good stick in a 1v1 situation. Having flown the A8 before I was fairly aware of its characteristics, which is why I was surprised that he was able to hold a sustained turn for that long.
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On very basic item that is missing in this discussion is lift vector and how to use it. This is one of the fundamentals of effective BFM/ACM employment. If one doesn't have a basic understanding of it there is a huge part missing in the fighter pilot's bag of tricks. The guys and gals out in the real world understand it and use it as one of the basics for maneuvering against an opponent.
I'm sure we'd all like to hear more about it Puma.
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I'm sure we'd all like to hear more about it Puma.
Start by doing some research and reading, ya know, the Google thing. :D. The typical BRD discussion is about advanced maneuvering before understanding the basics. For players new to BFM/ACM it's like teaching someone to run before they learn to crawl and then walk.
Surely, you understand lift vector and know how to apply it.
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Start by doing some research and reading, ya know, the Google thing. :D. The typical BRD discussion is about advanced maneuvering before understanding the basics. For players new to BFM/ACM it's like teaching someone to run before they learn to crawl and then walk.
Surely, you understand lift vector and know how to apply it.
I wasn't asking just for myself. I'm sure there's a lot of interest in your knowledge and experience. I learn a lot from other people and there's always more to learn. When people ask questions in Help and Training they're usually looking for tips and explanations. If they're interested in reading and can learn on their own they're usually doing that already.
If you're not sure where to start you might explain how plane of maneuver affects establishing pursuit curves.
I always recommend learning the basics first when someone wants to learn a particular aircraft and it's obvious that what they really need to do is learn the basics of flight including turning, and the basics of ACM/BFM, i.e. pursuit curves, the energy egg, and the turn circle.
It's like an apple drops on Newton and he cuts it open, doesn't see anything that makes it fall and never bothers with discovering gravity. :D
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You're too kind sir. :salute
With regards to the A8 incident, I should add that I was facing a pretty good stick in a 1v1 situation. Having flown the A8 before I was fairly aware of its characteristics, which is why I was surprised that he was able to hold a sustained turn for that long.
Kept fast, the A8 is a fun ride. They turn surprisingly well when really fast. When slow, the A8 has a nasty rt wing departure that is hard to recover from near the deck. It happens quick, really quick.
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Man! There was a discussion on jugs and no one invited me?! And I missed the good part as well!!! :(
I've noticed that when chasing 190s at high speed, jugs tend to have a hard time turning with them (different G loading on the pilot?). I will be pulling in a lag pursuit and still be blacking out from too many Gs and they will just keep getting tighter and tighter. :headscratch:
My favorite jug is the D-25. It's performance is pretty close to the D-11 but it's visibility is on a whole different level. It can carry a decent ord load if need be (though I rarely take rockets anywhere due to the impeded roll rate when the tubes are still on). And it has the distinction of being the most under used jugs, which sets it apart as a true jug drivers plane. :rock
My favorite planes to pick on are spitfires since they usually seem to be the only ones willing to turn fight, along with the occasional Yak. Though these planes (especially spits) usually hunt in packs which makes them even more of a challenge to beat.
The planes I try to avoid are corsairs and hellcats. Both seem to do everything better than the jug. The hogs... they just do things... it's like alien technology. :uhoh
And if you're flying the jug remember, always hunt the brewsters withe extreme prejudice. :aok
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Why the D25 over the D40?
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Man! There was a discussion on jugs and no one invited me?! And I missed the good part as well!!! :(
I've noticed that when chasing 190s at high speed, jugs tend to have a hard time turning with them (different G loading on the pilot?). I will be pulling in a lag pursuit and still be blacking out from too many Gs and they will just keep getting tighter and tighter. :headscratch:
My favorite jug is the D-25. It's performance is pretty close to the D-11 but it's visibility is on a whole different level. It can carry a decent ord load if need be (though I rarely take rockets anywhere due to the impeded roll rate when the tubes are still on). And it has the distinction of being the most under used jugs, which sets it apart as a true jug drivers plane. :rock
My favorite planes to pick on are spitfires since they usually seem to be the only ones willing to turn fight, along with the occasional Yak. Though these planes (especially spits) usually hunt in packs which makes them even more of a challenge to beat.
The planes I try to avoid are corsairs and hellcats. Both seem to do everything better than the jug. The hogs... they just do things... it's like alien technology. :uhoh
And if you're flying the jug remember, always hunt the brewsters withe extreme prejudice. :aok
You got that right:
(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/AH%20motivationals/th_hoverflaps.jpg) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/AH%20motivationals/hoverflaps.jpg.html)
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Why the D25 over the D40?
More of a challenge, I imagine.
Years ago someone wrote here that the D25 had the best ordnance load-out of all the 47s. Never checked to see if it was true then, or if it is true now, but I remember reading that.
- oldman
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Why the D25 over the D40?
Prettier skins.
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This will sound silly to some. Player1 is in a historical squad (56 FG) and they never flew the D40. I am guessing his reasons are similar to mine for preferring the D25 to the D40. I guess we all get our enjoyment from AH in different ways :airplane:
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Why the D25 over the D40?
This will sound silly to some. Player1 is in a historical squad (56 FG) and they never flew the D40. I am guessing his reasons are similar to mine for preferring the D25 to the D40. I guess we all get our enjoyment from AH in different ways :airplane:
I just don't like the feel of the D-40. When I fly it, even clean and at 25% fuel, it feels very heavy. It feels like I'm fighting with it just to make it go where I want. The D-40 is better in the vertical though.
And yes, being in a historic squad plays into it a little bit.
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d11- Turns well but bad climb rate/cock pit
d25/d40: Couple of my favs. I have tested them against each other in the DA. If there is a difference in a all out fight between the two I sure couldn't see it. I consider them the same.
N Model: My FAV if I think IM going to need a bit more HP.
M: It's fast but it has a weird stall in Rolling Scissors that is a pain.
With 47's your strengths are it's weight, rudder and guns. Practice gunnery a lot. Gunnery is key, (as it is in any plane.) The jug can burn E probably faster than any fighter. So, you slow down let them overshoot and don't miss. Another thing study plane performance charts. It's crucial to know when outnumbered who is your greatest threat. So if there are say an la7, an a6m, and a spit who have equal energy you go for the la7 first, then spit, then a6m. Also try to pay very close attention to closure rates to your bogey. I played around with convergence for a long time before I was satisfied with around 300 yards
There are a lot of little things to learn that will give you a higher success rate in any plane. Like lets say rolling scissor fighting a typhy. They have a prop (if I remember correctly) that spins opposite direction as a 47. And they have terrible torque. So if they are on your 6 you would initiate the rolling scissors to the direction that would give them fits. 109's you can use your dive and high speed maneuvering. to your advantage. So really just practice man :)