Jug Instructions

[ink]

Ink, I know you are a big ki84 fan, but much of your praises of the plane are exaggerated. I fought countless ki84s in the MA and remain unimpressed. In a P47, with a few kft under me, the ki84 is completely avoidable even when it has the advantage. Above 10,000 feet the P47D is faster and even climbs about the same on WEP. Above 20,000 where P47s were supposed to fight, the KI84 is a joke. Against the P47M the ki is outclassed unless the fight is turning circle a at under 200 mph... But then a zero is even better and that does not make it a great fighter.

The best turn/stall fights are done with planes that were not made for it. Take a B25 or a B26 in fighter mode (no drones, using the fixed guns) and you'll see.

 

 your statement is moronic....."I fought countless ki's in MA all the time"

pfft 90% of the MA cant fight period.....have zero clue as to how to Avoid a HOIng 47.....

 because thats ALL she is good for...staying fast and HOing everything.


you show me...DA is that way....you kill me even once at any ALT...... I will come in here and say I was wrong....


I will say I was WRONG and the 47 is a Match for the KI......


someone else who loved the 47....flew it thinking it was quite the fighter in the MA ...took offense at my down talking of his 47....

we went to DA.....score was 12-0

we fought at every ALT all the way up to 25K....how bad do you think he felt afterward?

he just realized the 47 is not meant for TnBing because its not...you who take offense at what I say about it.....kinda make me laugh....

talk about getting your panties all twisted up....

calling a dead man dead is no offense.




again though..... be more then willing to break and shatter your high image of your "fighting" 47.





EDIT

and NO my advice to spread out the 8 gun......convergence in the 47 is not bad advice.

[-ammo-]

 your statement is moronic....."I fought countless ki's in MA all the time"

pfft 90% of the MA cant fight period.....have zero clue as to how to Avoid a HOIng 47.....

 because thats ALL she is good for...staying fast and HOing everything.


you show me...DA is that way....you kill me even once at any ALT...... I will come in here and say I was wrong....


I will say I was WRONG and the 47 is a Match for the KI......


someone else who loved the 47....flew it thinking it was quite the fighter in the MA ...took offense at my down talking of his 47....

we went to DA.....score was 12-0

we fought at every ALT all the way up to 25K....how bad do you think he felt afterward?

he just realized the 47 is not meant for TnBing because its not...you who take offense at what I say about it.....kinda make me laugh....

talk about getting your panties all twisted up....

calling a dead man dead is no offense.




again though..... be more then willing to break and shatter your high image of your "fighting" 47.

Evidently there is something about the P-47 that's personal with you?  No one is arguing the KI-84 doesn't turn better that the P-47

[FLS]

It's funny when Ink says the Ki-84 will win with equal pilots and E and the counter argument starts with a huge E advantage.  

[bozon]

But the charts are like stock charts. They only tell you its base performance measure but don't tell you the actual dynamic of the company.

The charts themselves need to be taken with a grain of salt. For some planes more than others then do not represent the typical configuration that you will meet in the arena. For example, the P-47, more than most planes is significantly affected by its fuel load, just because it carries so much of it - in the case of the N the fuel load is insane and equivalent to 5 and 1/2 fully fuelled 109s. The charts typically have the planes with close to 100% which will have a much greater effect on a Jug than on a 109/Yak/La7 or one of the other planes with a gas tanks the size of a Cola bottle. A more extreme example - look at the charts for the Mosquito VI. They say 3200 fpm WEP climb at sea level, when I know it does much more than that. The chart is for a fuel load that will last for an hour and bombs in the bay... not exactly the way it will loaded when ready to dogfight.

[ink]

Evidently there is something about the P-47 that's personal with you?  No one is arguing the KI-84 doesn't turn better that the P-47

did you not read what I responded to....

no I do not have a problem with the 47..... its a nice plane and in its roll it is extremely awesome.....



I just like people getting the right info is all....

people talk about the 47 like you can go TnB with the True TnBers....that is false you can not...well you can try but you wont get very far...even after mastering the 47...it is just not a TnBer....

thats my point...no issue with the 47.

[-ammo-]

did you not read what I responded to....

no I do not have a problem with the 47..... its a nice plane and in its roll it is extremely awesome.....



I just like people getting the right info is all....

people talk about the 47 like you can go TnB with the True TnBers....that is false you can not...well you can try but you wont get very far...even after mastering the 47...it is just not a TnBer....

thats my point...no issue with the 47.

I've read every one of your responses and will encourage you to go back and read mine.  Again, yes the KI-84 is a better turn and burn AC than the P-47, but yet many P-47 pilots manage to beat that turny plane in the MA.  I've seen you fall to worst AC.  It's the MA and the situation matters.  That's the point right? Figuring out a way to beat your opponent in the MA with the statical odds against you

[glzsqd]

The P47 is actaully not great in the HO shots. It has a heavy gunpackage but machine guns rely on volume. High closure rates mean even with 8 guns you won't be able to put as many rounds on target.

[FLS]

The charts themselves need to be taken with a grain of salt. For some planes more than others then do not represent the typical configuration that you will meet in the arena. For example, the P-47, more than most planes is significantly affected by its fuel load, just because it carries so much of it - in the case of the N the fuel load is insane and equivalent to 5 and 1/2 fully fuelled 109s. The charts typically have the planes with close to 100% which will have a much greater effect on a Jug than on a 109/Yak/La7 or one of the other planes with a gas tanks the size of a Cola bottle. A more extreme example - look at the charts for the Mosquito VI. They say 3200 fpm WEP climb at sea level, when I know it does much more than that. The chart is for a fuel load that will last for an hour and bombs in the bay... not exactly the way it will loaded when ready to dogfight.

You just need to look at all the available data. The charts in the plane comparison on the AH main page are the same charts shown in the hanger. The difference is that the hanger chart also shows the tested weight.

[The Fugitive]

When you say 110% you leave the realm of reality. Data is information. You learn the information and ignore the BS and you'll do fine.

In my experience people who talk 110% rarely manage more than 85% and never hit 100%.  I know it's just an expression that means you need to try harder because you aren't doing your best but I hear it used as if it's literally true.

no, it's not leaving the realm of reality if your using the data as a base line.

All Im saying here is the data will only get you so far, and practice and trying things beyond what the data says will get you farther.

[bozon]

 your statement is moronic....."I fought countless ki's in MA all the time"

pfft 90% of the MA cant fight period.....have zero clue as to how to Avoid a HOIng 47.....

 because thats ALL she is good for...staying fast and HOing everything.

It is true that I am above average in the arena, but in no way the best player around. When you fight lots of KI84s and lots of P47s driven by different players things average out. If the KI84 was that good, you'd see a lot of it in the arena - you don't. removing the P51s and spits due to "fame factor", I see more La's Yaks and 109s than ki84s. Yes, it is very good, but it has lots of limitations. The P-47 is not a pure turn fighter, but so are most 1943 and onward planes. The 47 can turn good enough to take a large fraction of the MA population into a knife fight and be successful in it.

DA duels are a different thing. There it is all about mastering the double Immelman or one of the other 3 opening moves and hanging on the prop with flaps full out and other rubbish. These are the moves that win duels and get you killed very fast in the MA. In a furball I am just waiting to see F4Us pull out their gears against someone.

The last quoted sentence says to me you have some hurt feelings or something against the 47. This is a thread for someone that wanted advice on how to fly the Jug and you think that "stay fast and HO everything" is a good advice? Same goes for your advice to spread the convergence of the .50s - not good.

You just need to look at all the available data. The charts in the plane comparison on the AH main page are the same charts shown in the hanger. The difference is that the hanger chart also shows the tested weight.

That is what I was referring to. The Mosquito is tested with a very high weight, well above its realistic MA configuration (100% fuel is 74 minutes at full throttle, and people do not dogfight with bombs in the bay, unless they forget they have them, or the get cocky). I think that the Jugs are tested with near 100% fuel.

[ink]

I've read every one of your responses and will encourage you to go back and read mine.  Again, yes the KI-84 is a better turn and burn AC than the P-47, but yet many P-47 pilots manage to beat that turny plane in the MA.  I've seen you fall to worst AC.  It's the MA and the situation matters.  That's the point right? Figuring out a way to beat your opponent in the MA with the statical odds against you

yes for sure that is the point for me and some others..not most though.

and in the MA we all know that any plane can be killed by any plane...I have killed 262's with my Hurri and Zero's...

been killed by 110's in my KI....


that's the MA....but you cant (at least I don't) use flying and dieing in the MA as a measuring tool on how badarse a plane is.....

or what its true capabilities are in a dogfight....

[FLS]

no, it's not leaving the realm of reality if your using the data as a base line.

All Im saying here is the data will only get you so far, and practice and trying things beyond what the data says will get you farther.

Please give an example of trying things beyond the data. I don't know what that means and I don't want to guess. Sometimes arguments are just confusion over definitions and examples can help to avoid that.

[ink]

It is true that I am above average in the arena, but in no way the best player around. When you fight lots of KI84s and lots of P47s driven by different players things average out. If the KI84 was that good, you'd see a lot of it in the arena - you don't. removing the P51s and spits due to "fame factor", I see more La's Yaks and 109s than ki84s. Yes, it is very good, but it has lots of limitations. The P-47 is not a pure turn fighter, but so are most 1943 and onward planes. The 47 can turn good enough to take a large fraction of the MA population into a knife fight and be successful in it.

DA duels are a different thing. There it is all about mastering the double Immelman or one of the other 3 opening moves and hanging on the prop with flaps full out and other rubbish. These are the moves that win duels and get you killed very fast in the MA. In a furball I am just waiting to see F4Us pull out their gears against someone.

The last quoted sentence says to me you have some hurt feelings or something against the 47. This is a thread for someone that wanted advice on how to fly the Jug and you think that "stay fast and HO everything" is a good advice? Same goes for your advice to spread the convergence of the .50s - not good.

That is what I was referring to. The Mosquito is tested with a very high weight, well above its realistic MA configuration (100% fuel is 74 minutes at full throttle, and people do not dogfight with bombs in the bay, unless they forget they have them, or the get cocky). I think that the Jugs are tested with near 100% fuel.

don't that tell you something....

like I said 90% of the MA have zero clue on how fight....they rely on speed to survive....hence not many Ki's..... they have a high speed issue....THAT is why you dont see them common in the MA.

very few players are real deal fighters...most play all parts of the game....very few only fly fighters....only in fighter mode.

and most fly in a gang of green....

how many are like that? would you guess?

the only limitation the KI has is its lack of high speed control....but that is used for running.....and if people cant run away in a plane it wont get much use.

[FLS]

That is what I was referring to. The Mosquito is tested with a very high weight, well above its realistic MA configuration (100% fuel is 74 minutes at full throttle, and people do not dogfight with bombs in the bay, unless they forget they have them, or the get cocky). I think that the Jugs are tested with near 100% fuel.

The Jugs are tested closer to 75% fuel except the N, which carries twice as much fuel and is tested at 100%.  This skews the relative performance perception as you pointed out. That's why I suggest checking the hanger charts and doing your own testing at your preferred combat configuration.

[The Fugitive]

Please give an example of trying things beyond the data. I don't know what that means and I don't want to guess. Sometimes arguments are just confusion over definitions and examples can help to avoid that.

It's those spins, flips and things that some players can do in the game that would have the real pilots eyeballs rolling around on the floor. While HTC works very hard to keep the "physics" part of the equation close to the real data, there are maneuvers that some players can make that "physically". Watch some of Lepape2's films to see what I mean. Latrobe can make the 109s do things that would ruin a real pilots leather undies.

This is a computer game you can not feel that "seat of the pants" feeling so many pilots fly with. That limitation is also what allows some of these more wild maneuvers.

As I said, the data is a good base line, a good foundation, but to be one of the best your better off just flying the crap out of the plane.