Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Fate on March 18, 2015, 07:16:37 PM
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Or maybe it's always been ridiculous. I don't know. But it's being abused by certain (I won't name names) teams/countries to the point of absurdity. In the last 2 days I've watched 5 bomber groups do it in front of me alone. And I'm rarely chasing bombers. The 'base takers' use it as a tactical tool, which in the sim world, doesn't add up, since such tactics wouldn't cut it IRL.
No idea if the damage model would support it, but it sure would be nice if there were consequences for jumping out of a perfectly good airplane other than absorbing deaths, which obviously aren't of consequence.
In real life, you bail out / ditch and you wouldn't be upping right away. How about you get a tower time-out anytime you have to use one of those options? The guys who ditch in fighters to avoid giving up a kill are just as bad as the bomber bailers. Let them walk back home & think about what they've done :D
Thanks for listening to my drivel.
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I sorta agree up to the complaint about fighters ditching about which I completely disagree.
There is plenty to squeak about with this game but realize it is like democracy in the sense that it is the worst possible game except for all the others.
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There is plenty to squeak about with this game but realize it is like democracy in the sense that it is the worst possible game except for all the others.
:rolleyes:
How does making a suggestion in the 'wishlist' forum - a forum set up specifically to solicit user input - equate to criticism? I love this game. Making a suggestion isn't criticism. It is exactly what it is - a suggestion.
Or did I accidentally post in the "Love it or leave it" thread?
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Or maybe it's always been ridiculous. I don't know. But it's being abused by certain (I won't name names) teams/countries to the point of absurdity. In the last 2 days I've watched 5 bomber groups do it in front of me alone. And I'm rarely chasing bombers. The 'base takers' use it as a tactical tool, which in the sim world, doesn't add up, since such tactics wouldn't cut it IRL.
No idea if the damage model would support it, but it sure would be nice if there were consequences for jumping out of a perfectly good airplane other than absorbing deaths, which obviously aren't of consequence.
In real life, you bail out / ditch and you wouldn't be upping right away. How about you get a tower time-out anytime you have to use one of those options? The guys who ditch in fighters to avoid giving up a kill are just as bad as the bomber bailers. Let them walk back home & think about what they've done :D
Thanks for listening to my drivel.
The usual counterargument to that one is 'They're not paying $14.95 a month to sit in tower on timeout.' Also, what if they ride it down and auger? If you're going to put people on timeout anytime they go down... I don't think it would be popular.
Wiley.
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This is something that is irritating, but it really isn't A Problem.
I was thinking (before posting in another thread) about how I've observed this sort of behavior since at least 1995. I understand the frustration, but really, it doesn't rise to the level of something that demands a change in game programming.
- oldman
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The problem is coming up with a solution that both addresses the problem without causing collateral damage and is not easily circumvented.
I've yet to see a viable solution proposed other than lightly perking the heavy bombers and B-26 and Tu-2.
I do agree it is very irritating though.
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The problem is coming up with a solution that both addresses the problem without causing collateral damage and is not easily circumvented.
I've yet to see a viable solution proposed other than lightly perking the heavy bombers and B-26 and Tu-2.
I do agree it is very irritating though.
And that puts it under the ineffective category. It's either not heavy enough to be a detriment, or heavy enough to be a detriment, but also penalizes legit bomber pilots (collateral damage).
Wiley.
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The problem is coming up with a solution that both addresses the problem without causing collateral damage and is not easily circumvented.
I've yet to see a viable solution proposed other than lightly perking the heavy bombers and B-26 and Tu-2.
I do agree it is very irritating though.
Perk only the two drones. If they want to bomb and bail they can do it for free only with a single buff.
The whole idea about B&B is efficiency. Put a perk price tag on this efficiency.
Since only 2 of the 3 bombers are perked. Players can lose one bomber and still get a full refund after landing. Combined with a low cost and the ease of accumulating bomber perks (relative to fighter perks) and all players should be able to afford drones (assuming they land occasionally).
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if there going to perk bomber formations then it should take less damage to kill objects
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Ditching a group of hand-holders beats landing kills any day! :aok
(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/AH%20motivationals/ditching.jpg~original) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/AH%20motivationals/ditching.jpg.html)
How hard is it to kill a plane that is at landing speed - and likely critically damaged? :ahand
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Or maybe it's always been ridiculous. I don't know. But it's being abused by certain (I won't name names) teams/countries to the point of absurdity. In the last 2 days I've watched 5 bomber groups do it in front of me alone. And I'm rarely chasing bombers. The 'base takers' use it as a tactical tool, which in the sim world, doesn't add up, since such tactics wouldn't cut it IRL.
No idea if the damage model would support it, but it sure would be nice if there were consequences for jumping out of a perfectly good airplane other than absorbing deaths, which obviously aren't of consequence.
In real life, you bail out / ditch and you wouldn't be upping right away. How about you get a tower time-out anytime you have to use one of those options? The guys who ditch in fighters to avoid giving up a kill are just as bad as the bomber bailers. Let them walk back home & think about what they've done :D
Thanks for listening to my drivel.
5 sets in 2 days out of how many sorties? how many total enemy players did you see fought that didnt bail? as for fighters ditching, well chase them down and kill them as they try to ditch like the rest of us.
I was online 2 days in a row saw not a single bomber bail out and we had quite a few. actually I think the only one I saw bail out was me and that was because I upped from the wrong base.
semp
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5 sets in 2 days out of how many sorties? how many total enemy players did you see fought that didnt bail? as for fighters ditching, well chase them down and kill them as they try to ditch like the rest of us.
I was online 2 days in a row during US primetime saw not a single bomber bail outduring US primetime and we had quite a fewduring US primetime. actually I think the only one I saw bail out was me and that was because I upped from the wrong base.
semp
Yup. If you can't see it, it's not there.
Wiley.
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Yup. If you can't see it, it's not there.
Wiley.
you mean it doesnt happen during primtime? we'll there's your solution. allow flying only during primetime only. see how easy it is to solve the bomb and bailing problem that is getting ridiculous due to the increasing number of threads.
semp
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you mean it doesnt happen during primtime? we'll there's your solution. allow flying only during primetime only. see how easy it is to solve the bomb and bailing problem that is getting ridiculous due to the increasing number of threads.
semp
As a percentage of planes in the air, it's far lower. Off hours brings out the milkrunners. If there are only 3 bombers in the air for a side and 2 of them are chronic bailers, it becomes slightly more of an issue.
Wiley.
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As a percentage of planes in the air, it's far lower. Off hours brings out the milkrunners. If there are only 3 bombers in the air for a side and 2 of them are chronic bailers, it becomes slightly more of an issue.
Wiley.
well since the op mentioned 5 planes in 2 days, that still leaves a lot of time to find somebody who wants to fight. btw what exactly is prime time?
semp
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well since the op mentioned 5 planes in 2 days, that still leaves a lot of time to find somebody who wants to fight. btw what exactly is prime time?
semp
Evenings. If you want numbers, I'd ballpark it 6pm-12am Eastern, but please, do tell about how you play at 5 and it's all swell. I'm sure it will be enthralling.
Wiley.
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Evenings. If you want numbers, I'd ballpark it 6pm-12am Eastern, but please, do tell about how you play at 5 and it's all swell. I'm sure it will be enthralling.
Wiley.
it's 3:28 right now been playing for over an hour. at 5 i was playing and having fun, didnt see a single bomber bail. and there were plenty of bombers.
btw I sometimes play until 12 pst with numbers in the double digits, I find bombers and have yet to see this bailing epidemic you are talking about.
semp
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it's 3:28 right now been playing for over an hour. at 5 i was playing and having fun, didnt see a single bomber bail. and there were plenty of bombers.
semp
And how many of them were strat runners?
Wiley.
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And how many of them were strat runners?
Wiley.
strats were getting hit, we killed some there, didnt see any bailers. there were also many raids everywhere as rooks were trying to reset the map. didnt see any bailers either.
semp
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strats were getting hit, we killed some there, didnt see any bailers. there were also many raids everywhere as rooks were trying to reset the map. didnt see any bailers either.
semp
Small map, multiple people making runs at once, is not the situation the milkrunner BnBers come out for. But ok semp. It obviously doesn't happen. Everyone is imagining it.
Wiley.
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I am generally OK with them bailing. The ones that bail just to avoid combat is my major beef.
I notice this over-and-over. Leave them alone...they generally return. Start in on a run to take them down and there they go.
Interestingly (wont name names) I was called out by one because I would not turn fight his LA7 in a boom-and-zoom plane very low on fuel. He'd previous bomb and bailed and I did get his proxy kills. I did not want them. Did not earn them. Wish we had the ability to give away perks points and proxy kills to new players.
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Small map, multiple people making runs at once, is not the situation the milkrunner BnBers come out for. But ok semp. It obviously doesn't happen. Everyone is imagining it.
Wiley.
not saying it doesn't happen, just saying some like to exaggerate as to how often it happens.
semp
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not saying it doesn't happen, just saying some like to exaggerate as to how often it happens.
semp
The conditions it happens under though are generally at the worst possible times and magnify its impact.
It's usually when there's almost nobody on, that singleton bardar is one of three things in the air on the other side, and he bails. If there were three more on the way 12 miles behind him, I agree who cares? But that's not generally how it happens when it happens. Although I can think of one instance in the last month where I watched 2 sets of heavies bail after dropping their load within icon distance of each other, it's rare.
Wiley.
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Or maybe it's always been ridiculous. I don't know. But it's being abused by certain (I won't name names) teams/countries to the point of absurdity. In the last 2 days I've watched 5 bomber groups do it in front of me alone. And I'm rarely chasing bombers. The 'base takers' use it as a tactical tool, which in the sim world, doesn't add up, since such tactics wouldn't cut it IRL.
No idea if the damage model would support it, but it sure would be nice if there were consequences for jumping out of a perfectly good airplane other than absorbing deaths, which obviously aren't of consequence.
In real life, you bail out / ditch and you wouldn't be upping right away. How about you get a tower time-out anytime you have to use one of those options? The guys who ditch in fighters to avoid giving up a kill are just as bad as the bomber bailers. Let them walk back home & think about what they've done :D
Thanks for listening to my drivel.
:airplane: I know this game wasn't designed to be a WW2 combat sim, but he fact that we use WW2 equipment to play the game with, shouldn't it closely resemble what when on in WW2? Wonder if the allies would have won the war, if bomber pilots bailed after bombing anything in Germany?
I realize there are theses things happening with no penalties, but how about "stick" steering? its just as bad and shouldn't be allowed. If you are going to play the game, you should be required to at least fly these things just like the real one which you are pretending to be in!!!
Fire at will guys~~~~
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:rolleyes:
How does making a suggestion in the 'wishlist' forum - a forum set up specifically to solicit user input - equate to criticism? I love this game. Making a suggestion isn't criticism. It is exactly what it is - a suggestion.
Or did I accidentally post in the "Love it or leave it" thread?
My point wasn't that you were criticising and I disapprove, it is that there isn't much you can do about bomb and bailing without messing up some other part of the game.
But who cares about that, what do you find objectionable about people landing crippled planes off field,(AKA ditching,)?
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:airplane: I know this game wasn't designed to be a WW2 combat sim, but he fact that we use WW2 equipment to play the game with, shouldn't it closely resemble what when on in WW2? Wonder if the allies would have won the war, if bomber pilots bailed after bombing anything in Germany?
I realize there are theses things happening with no penalties, but how about "stick" steering? its just as bad and shouldn't be allowed. If you are going to play the game, you should be required to at least fly these things just like the real one which you are pretending to be in!!!
Fire at will guys~~~~
if you do a bit or research you will find out that there were more than a couple of lancasters that would fly nw of england and just circle. england sent spitfires and hurricanes with orders to shoot them down.
heck you can find stories of fighter pilots that for some reason they would have trouble with their airplane 1/2 the time they went up.
semp
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Was also more than one fighter pilot that just fired the guns dry and rtb at first sight of cons. Its i guess a little difference if u can get killed for real. All these games is for fighter ace wannabes that dont want to experience the down sides of aerial warfare. We simply have to accept that there are some "gamey" stuffs in a game. after all, noone would play a game where u were sittin on a base untill someone told u to start and fly to a certain point and wait for an enemy that might show up. here we can land more kills in a week than Hartmann got in 3 years.
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One way to discourage bombers from bailing is to assign perk points to all heavy bombers.
Lancs 5 perks
B-24 4 perks
b-17 3 perks
Leave the b-29 and Arado 234 with their current values.
If a bomber bailed with 3 Lancs, he would lose 7.5 perks ( no damage ) and 15 perks ( with damage )
:salute
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not saying it doesn't happen, just saying some like to exaggerate as to how often it happens.
semp
Saturday morning. 12:00 Eastern. I log in. Bardar for 3, possibly up to 6 enemy aircraft on the entire front. One over the city, one over the fuel. I head for the one at the city, approximately 2 minutes after I up, I watch his unmolested dot disappear off the radar he's showing on.
Not whining, just showing a handy and timely example of the times it does happen, it's pretty much destroying what little gameplay there is to be had at that time.
Wiley.
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:airplane: I know this game wasn't designed to be a WW2 combat sim, but he fact that we use WW2 equipment to play the game with, shouldn't it closely resemble what when on in WW2? Wonder if the allies would have won the war, if bomber pilots bailed after bombing anything in Germany?
I realize there are theses things happening with no penalties, but how about "stick" steering? its just as bad and shouldn't be allowed. If you are going to play the game, you should be required to at least fly these things just like the real one which you are pretending to be in!!!
Fire at will guys~~~~
no it shouldn't...war sucks...games are fun.
and no you shouldn't be "required" to fly them the way they were really flown....this is not a flight simulator....and in NO way does it simulate the efforts needed to fly a real plane.
yes those who bomb and bail are not really playing the game to its intent as a combat simulator....
so are the ones who run to ack when they lose position (even though some call that combat haha)
thankfully we can play our game how we want....how they play their game does not matter one iota if you dont let it.
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I just think that if you 'die' through auger or bail, no perkies for you!
Lusche - After you pointed out people would run home with one kill, I changed the concept to not included getting kilt. Tho, I still would have no problem with that either. . . . I have a feeling we have enough people who aren't worried about perkies and/or have egos large enough they wouldn't run home just to land a single pelt (what? no name in lights?)
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The guys who do this have lost the privilege of being able to discuss "realism" as it applies to any facet of this sim since they can't be bothered to embrace realism in their play of the sim.
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.this is not a flight simulator...
yea it is.. that's why htc goes thru the effort of ensuring realism in the physics and performance of everything, especially aircraft.
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yea it is.. that's why htc goes thru the effort of ensuring realism in the physics and performance of everything, especially aircraft.
sorry I don't want to start a pissing match...so with all respect I completely disagree...
and I will try to list reasons why
zero engine control...(except for rpm)
auto pilot....(a big one)
zero start up procedure
I am sure many here can list far more reasons why the "controls" of the plane are "dumbed down"
and Dale himself said it is a combat simulator.... also something along the lines that true engine control on a computer is just pushing more keys and he didn't want that...he wanted a game that focused on the COMBAT....
it is a combat simulator using WW2 equipment that has "realism in the physics and performance" of every plane/vehicle.
:salute
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yea it is.. that's why htc goes thru the effort of ensuring realism in the physics and performance of everything, especially aircraft.
kvuo75, ink is right.
semp
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all im saying is it simulates flight. it's a flight simulator.
there are degrees of realism of course.
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there are degrees of realism of course.
Aint no realism occurring, no chance of it that is, when they bail rather than fight. No combat sim, no realism sim, just how to press Enter three times. That is the only thing real about it. ...and me being silly of course. :)
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no it shouldn't...war sucks...games are fun.
and no you shouldn't be "required" to fly them the way they were really flown....this is not a flight simulator....and in NO way does it simulate the efforts needed to fly a real plane.
yes those who bomb and bail are not really playing the game to its intent as a combat simulator....
so are the ones who run to ack when they lose position (even though some call that combat haha)
thankfully we can play our game how we want....how they play their game does not matter one iota if you dont let it.
:airplane:
and no you shouldn't be "required" to fly them the way they were really flown....this is not a flight simulator....and in NO way does it simulate the efforts needed to fly a real plane.
If that is the case, why is the game built around the axes(spelling), which the "aircraft" have to be used to control the aircraft?
While I don't pretend to know near as much as you INK, and respect your knowledge of the game, I understand why HT "dumbed down the game so average Joe off the street can enjoy the "game" to some degree!
Maybe, and don't know how this would work, the "advanced" player could play in a different "mode", one in which he or she would have to do more advanced things to make "aircraft", ships, tanks, GV's work, there fore creating more of a challenge to play the game successfully!
After all, the only reason any of us play the game is for the "challenge" in it, other wise, it would be a waste of time!
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not saying it doesn't happen, just saying some like to exaggerate as to how often it happens.
semp
I'm surprised on how often it actually been happening lately. Last night intercepted a formation of bombers that were inbound V85 and still over water. As I got 3k out, the player bailed out of his bombers. Since he had yet to reach V85, the only conclusion that one could surmise is that the player bailed out of his bombers short of the target because he didn't want me to shoot him down.
ack-ack
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:airplane:
and no you shouldn't be "required" to fly them the way they were really flown....this is not a flight simulator....and in NO way does it simulate the efforts needed to fly a real plane.
If that is the case, why is the game built around the axes(spelling), which the "aircraft" have to be used to control the aircraft?
While I don't pretend to know near as much as you INK, and respect your knowledge of the game, I understand why HT "dumbed down the game so average Joe off the street can enjoy the "game" to some degree!
Maybe, and don't know how this would work, the "advanced" player could play in a different "mode", one in which he or she would have to do more advanced things to make "aircraft", ships, tanks, GV's work, there fore creating more of a challenge to play the game successfully!
After all, the only reason any of us play the game is for the "challenge" in it, other wise, it would be a waste of time!
that is a great way of saying it "dumbed down" some people may find it offensive but I certainly dont...
it is what it is....I do have a very little experience flying a real plane...I flew a super decathlon it was very similar to what we do here, my guess is that plane was made to be easy to use...very different then the WW2 fighters...
and I do agree there should be a full blown realism arena....from start up procedures to having to keep the plane trimmed... no auto pilot....to having to turn on super charger or whatever they had to do...make it so you have to do, even though it is only added button pushes...no icons(yes I know that icons make up for far viewing distance but they over compensate for close quarter combat...making nearly imposable to lose sight...)
that would be cool, and I would fly there once in a while....but honestly I think even though lots of people say they want this, I think that arena would have very few people actually in it.
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that is a great way of saying it "dumbed down" some people may find it offensive but I certainly dont...
it is what it is....I do have a very little experience flying a real plane...I flew a super decathlon it was very similar to what we do here, my guess is that plane was made to be easy to use...very different then the WW2 fighters...
and I do agree there should be a full blown realism arena....from start up procedures to having to keep the plane trimmed... no auto pilot....to having to turn on super charger or whatever they had to do...make it so you have to do, even though it is only added button pushes...no icons(yes I know that icons make up for far viewing distance but they over compensate for close quarter combat...making nearly imposable to lose sight...)
that would be cool, and I would fly there once in a while....but honestly I think even though lots of people say they want this, I think that arena would have very few people actually in it.
:airplane: I know zero about building a flight sim, but have flown in WT and CBS a good bit and having talked to some of those people, if there was some way to in=corperate WT graphics and CBS's pilot requirements, into AH, there is no telling how many customers AH would then have! But, Dale is a mighty smart man, so I guess there would be more to it than I realize.
There is a vast number of real life pilots out there, who don't play in AH, but maybe after next update, we can attract some of the them into the game.
One thing I would like to see, but never will I suppose, is to increase the icon range to 8k and the icon to disappear when with in 1/2k of another country aircraft. 10 to 15 Knot wind at the surface at all times, CV groups with detachable cruisers for surprise attacks, damage on HQ be increased to 74,000 lbs, GV "spawn" hangar the only one you could use for resupply to another base, if it goes down, you couldn't resupply with any of the other three hangars!
Oh, well, my rant for the day I guess!
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no icons(yes I know that icons make up for far viewing distance but they over compensate for close quarter combat...making nearly imposable to lose sight...)
that would be cool, and I would fly there once in a while....but honestly I think even though lots of people say they want this, I think that arena would have very few people actually in it.
The guys that want it, have a tendency to talk about it a LOT. ;)
What I don't like about zero icons is, I'm not overly fond of having a game where another person's settings and setup have the possibility to give them a drastic advantage over others. Better computers and joysticks can certainly give an edge, but it's not at the level of 'invisible plane' or 'visible plane'.
I see what you're saying about it being too easy to track them but IMO it's better to have that level playing field for all than for the game to have video configuration and settings manipulation be the single most vital skillset to have to play effectively.
I already need a seeing eye wingman to FSO. Generally I don't see dots until they're at least within 6k, no matter what, and even then just barely.
Wiley.
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I already need a seeing eye wingman to FSO. Generally I don't see dots until they're at least within 6k, no matter what, and even then just barely.
Wiley.
Woof Woof !
(Wags tail)
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Sad thing about 6k and dots.
I had to recently format my C: drive and lay down a fresh install of Win7. My first install was back in 2010. Which ment I had to perform a monitor calibration on a vanilla system after I reinstalled AH2. NDisles tends to be a bit dark at 12:00 noon other wise. And the default installation of windows is not much more vibrant. If you only raise the in game gamma, yes you will make it bright. But, at the cost of adding that whiteish haze that causes far dots at about 6k to not be seen. Along with everything being kind of flat colored. Sky being sort of blue gray and so forth. But, then old guy eyes can see things inside of 6k with the in game gamma cranked up. Low light furballs over water and ground are better. But, you kill seeing dots past 6k. And you blame Hitech for creating a really bad looking game color wise even though your game RGB channels brilliance is controlled by your desktop or, killed by your in game gamma slider.
Since the game color RGB channels are controlled by your desktop color and gamma. And setting the in game gamma higher than about 1.2 hazes out the game. I calibrate at the desktop which ends up giving me blue crisp skys with vibrant game colors like using SweetFX and I can see dots past 6k without having to up the game gamma past 1.2. (1.2-1.8 is an old Windows standard for gamma.) Still this makes you suffer real world issues with seeing other planes between 06:00-08:00 and 16:00-18:00 against the ocean or ground. And what will many do in the face of all the great colors during these hours? Raise the in game gamma and haze out the game killing seeing dots past 6k....... :O
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:airplane: I know zero about building a flight sim, but have flown in WT and CBS a good bit and having talked to some of those people, if there was some way to in=corperate WT graphics and CBS's pilot requirements, into AH, there is no telling how many customers AH would then have! But, Dale is a mighty smart man, so I guess there would be more to it than I realize.
There is a vast number of real life pilots out there, who don't play in AH, but maybe after next update, we can attract some of the them into the game.
One thing I would like to see, but never will I suppose, is to increase the icon range to 8k and the icon to disappear when with in 1/2k of another country aircraft. 10 to 15 Knot wind at the surface at all times, CV groups with detachable cruisers for surprise attacks, damage on HQ be increased to 74,000 lbs, GV "spawn" hangar the only one you could use for resupply to another base, if it goes down, you couldn't resupply with any of the other three hangars!
Oh, well, my rant for the day I guess!
the reason we don't have WT graphics is very easy to answer....ill do it laymans terms...because I don't know the specifics of how much memory each "image" takes...
say you are using an image that is 512/512 it only take up a small amount of space in your graphics card...it will also be very lo detail....move that up to an image size of 1024/1024 now you also move up the space in your graphics card also the image quality is better
I would not be surprised if WT uses 4K image sizes which is a very large image...you can see the more images used which every object has some sort of image attached to it...and most often they have multiple images attached...the color image...the normal image...(which is an image that produces depth not color)...then there is a speculiarity map..which is the highlights...and there are many more image types that a comp uses to get realistic image effects...
im sure now you can image how much info must be saved for EVERY plane or GV or static object that you may get close enough to see up-close in game....of course any object that you wont get close to does not need a high res image...but everything in AH you can get close....
now imagine the amount of people that AH can have in one arena...each objects images must be preloaded into the card....
you would need the absolute best that money could buy in terms of Graphics and processing power to play a game like that...
thank fully for many of us that is not the case with AH.
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I'm surprised on how often it actually been happening lately. Last night intercepted a formation of bombers that were inbound V85 and still over water. As I got 3k out, the player bailed out of his bombers. Since he had yet to reach V85, the only conclusion that one could surmise is that the player bailed out of his bombers short of the target because he didn't want me to shoot him down.
ack-ack
and yet how many did you shoot down who didnt bail?
semp
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kvuo75, ink is right.
It's an air combat game with simulator qualities :)
Regarding the dissenters of the OP, I think the off prime time experience is very different than the prime time experience. During prime time, we don't have to deal as much with heavy ENY, finding fights side switch issues and bomb & bailers. I think from what I am reading, the off primetime crowd has a little tougher time getting some quality fights.
It also sounds to me like there is a specific group of people that like to bomb things, and bail at the first sign of resistance, that also fly at the same general time as the OP. Point is, just because YOU don't have that experience, doesn't mean others aren't experiencing it frequently.
Of course, the only thing bailing does is keep someone else from getting a kill. The bailers is scored as if it was a death, so they really aren't gaining any advantage other than be a little "kittycat"
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scca the point is what are you gonna do, look at it from a business point of view. you take away their "fun", they will stop playing. they stop playing then you wont have any bailers. so what did you actually gain other than make some players quit? you still not gonna have anybody to fight. so what exactly would be the point?
look at another problem that recently has increased. people will switch from fighting over a base to just run endless resupplies of m3's to town. do you call that fighting? I dont think so, but it's their 15 bucks so let them play as they see fit.
semp
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you take away their "fun", they will stop playing.
semp
How is bailing from undamaged aircraft "fun" for you, Semp?
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It's not just getting ridiculous, it's been ridiculous for quite some time.
I have seen many bomb-and-bail threads started over the years. I've posted possible solutions in several of them, the most simple of which is removing the ability to bail from an undamaged plane (not difficult to code, and not terribly impactive on normal game play).
Interestingly, Semp went to great lengths to defend bomb-and-bailing in those threads as well. I don't know why he gets such a kick out of it.
For the reasons Wiley explained above, the bomb-and-bailers seem more common and impactive during off-peak game play (my typical play hours). In fact, I was encountering it so often that it was one of the reasons I unsubbed from the game for 6 months last year. Now I generally don't bother bomber hunting any more during off-peak, knowing they will just bail and look for an unmolested milk-run elsewhere.
After seeing HTC ignore the issue for so many years, I've come to the conclusion they simply don't care about bomb-and-bailing. Sadly this has only encouraged it to become the normal MO for many bomber pilots.
Here's the thread I was thinking of, which I started after a string of threads complaining about bomb and bail:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=354697.0
<S>
Ryno
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If you no longer chase bombers because there are too many incidences of them bombing before you can get the first shot off, then they win.
Of course I do not like it at all myself. I film ever single flight, always, so I just go back and find out who it is. I see the same half a dozen guys doing it every single encounter without exception. I have never called them out in public or private and never will because even that negative attention will feed them. Just like this thread feeds them. They see that they upset people and quite obviously, that is what they want.
So, we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Penalizing bomb and bailers has unintended consequences on those that "play fair", and talking about it only feeds them.
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The M3 resupply phenomenon is one of the most passive, aggressive, irritating things in this game Hitech has given players to screw other players with. Sadly it's not like the player driving the M3 is cleaning your clock with uber ACM to squash your pride. At least there is some solace in being beaten by a better pilot. The M3 can be killed by a Brewster or another M3's 50cal. But, it's that feeling of realizing you just furballed your base away while some dork in an M3 took it out from under you when you could have destroyed it with a few rounds. Or that weeny who couldn't hold a candle to your uber ACM skills, just kept toodling 2000ft under you to keep his town ack up that ultimately stuck your nose in the dirt and held off the base capture. Now that was an M3 thumbing it's nose at your skillz.
Hitech gave many types of personality a way to define fighting in this combat simulator. Even the ability to runaway by bailing. I'm surprised you guys haven't started filming all of your sorties and begun personal shaming here in the forums. What next, you want magic tethers to lock players together at 6k until one or both are destroyed? Like those paranormal stories where you walk through a door back into the room you were just in.
That might make an interesting Claw grudge match kind of plaything mini arena for a Con. Fly around until you find someone, a 6k sphere appears around you two, and you can pop out to an instant random re-entry to shoot at each other until one is dead. No other players would be allowed into your fight.....picking and HOing would take on a whole new dimension. A whole arena full of spheres with Claws popping in and out. At least runners could try and avoid you by popping out for all of the fight. You could just sit there and rotate your Claw to say hello as they passed through. I can see the forum whines if they bailed to get away from you.
I guess one of you would want Hitech to horse whip them because they didn't spend enough time in the sphere flying the way you wanted to fight. Along with horse whipping them for bailing and not letting you kill them.
Can you imagine what things would be like if Hitech horse whipped everyone you guys complained about for not playing the game the way you want them to.......
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Can you imagine what things would be like if Hitech horse whipped everyone you guys complained about for not playing the game the way you want them to.......
You S T I L L haven't explained how giving the proxy and perks to the closest plane within render range is horse whipping them.
Can't change the behavior, may as well give the other pilot the points.
Wiley.
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I dont defend bomb and bailing. I am pointing out that it is really pointless to try to give solutions to something that isnt really a problem once you realize that there is no solution.
for example how can you stop somebody from bailing from an undamaged bomber. all he has to do is turn really fast and the drones are gone poof. then point your nose down and you will damage your bomber and still get the perkies.
so now your solution would be to limit the turning of a bomber which will affect those who know how to turn a bomber right on the edge when you dont lose drones. and if you change the code so bombers cant point the nose down and damage the airplane now will begin a new set of threads about how can bombers dive bomb from 20k while taking no damage.
semp
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and yet how many did you shoot down who didnt bail?
semp
It doesn't matter how many bombers I've shot down, it doesn't change the fact that players bailing from bombers to avoid being shot down has been increasing, or at the least, more common place that it previously was. Just because you've decided to stick your head in the sand doesn't mean this hasn't become a problem.
ack-ack
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It doesn't matter how many bombers I've shot down, it doesn't change the fact that players bailing from bombers to avoid being shot down has been increasing, or at the least, more common place that it previously was. Just because you've decided to stick your head in the sand doesn't mean this hasn't become a problem.
ack-ack
and how do you propose to "fix" it? I dont have my head in the sand, you guys do. you guys think that hitech can actually change how people play just by changing the code. you fail to see that most of the solutions offered will actually affect those who do want to play rather than punish those who bail.
semp
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and how do you propose to "fix" it? I dont have my head in the sand, you guys do. you guys think that hitech can actually change how people play just by changing the code. you fail to see that most of the solutions offered will actually affect those who do want to play rather than punish those who bail.
semp
I get the impression that Hitech is far smarter than us and I have the utmost confidence that he COULD come up with a solution should he want to.
There is a problem, and a number of people have asked for some type of solution. By you saying there isn't a problem and avoiding the issue doesn't help solve the problem, nor does it help with a solution either.
Some people have given what they think is a solution to the problem at hand. You have no reason to speak against any of them as it isn't up to you. Unless of course Hitech has asked you to run interference on these suggestions posted on the boards.
so in a recap,
Is there a problem? Many people believe so.
Is there a solution? Of course!
Is any of the above suggestions THE solution? Probably not.
Sticking your head in the sand and saying there isn't a problem doesn't help.
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fugitive you are wrong. some of those "solutions" do affect me. for example stopping people from bailing out from undamaged bombers. you know how many times I have bailed because either the base was taken and I have no interest in going to the next or to join another mission? if you stop me from bailing then all I have to do is point the bomber nose straight down 20 seconds later I am gone.
other solutions like giving "kills and perkies" just by being within icon range are funny as hell. you dont get perks for proxies right now, you really think it would be a good change? right now you dont get perkies for damaging an airplane unless you actually get the kill. so why should you get perkies for proxies and not for helping bring a plane down?
semp
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fugitive you are wrong. some of those "solutions" do affect me. for example stopping people from bailing out from undamaged bombers. you know how many times I have bailed because either the base was taken and I have no interest in going to the next or to join another mission? if you stop me from bailing then all I have to do is point the bomber nose straight down 20 seconds later I am gone.
other solutions like giving "kills and perkies" just by being within icon range are funny as hell. you dont get perks for proxies right now, you really think it would be a good change? right now you dont get perkies for damaging an airplane unless you actually get the kill. so why should you get perkies for proxies and not for helping bring a plane down?
semp
dont give perks.. give the kill credit. the game already awards kills for being close.. all I'd suggest is increase the range substantially.. outside of icon range at the least.
what possible reason could you have against just simply increasing the proxy range?
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I dont defend bomb and bailing.
Yes, you vehemently defend the ability to bomb and bail. You've done so in nearly every thread I've read about the topic.
You've now made it clear why, because YOU like to be able to bail out of undamaged aircraft as you stated above. This isn't about what is good for the community. It's about what is good for you. You have a vested interest in arguing that there isn't a problem and that it can't be fixed, because you don't want it fixed.
That's all I needed to know. Thanks.
My opinion on the other hand is based on these things:
1) I believe a combat game should promote combat, not allow exploits to avoid it.
2) I don't think you should be able to bail from an undamaged plane for any reason (you chose where to take off from. If you didn't consider an alternate target, go land).
3) I believe there are ways to limit bailing, and that includes your suggested method of "crashing/destroying" your plane instead (such as a bailing airspeed limitation).
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and how do you propose to "fix" it?
I don't know what the perfect solution would be, which is why I've never offered a "fix" to the problem.
I dont have my head in the sand, you guys do.
No, it's not us. You have a tendency to dismiss problems if they don't effect you and then claim it's not a problem since you don't experience the issue.
you guys think that hitech can actually change how people play just by changing the code. you fail to see that most of the solutions offered will actually affect those who do want to play rather than punish those who bail.
semp
Which is why I've never offered my ideas for a solution because, quite frankly, I don't think there is one that would satisfy all parties. Just because we don't have a good solution to the problem is no reason to dismiss it, like you are doing.
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fugitive you are wrong. some of those "solutions" do affect me. for example stopping people from bailing out from undamaged bombers. you know how many times I have bailed because either the base was taken and I have no interest in going to the next or to join another mission? if you stop me from bailing then all I have to do is point the bomber nose straight down 20 seconds later I am gone.
other solutions like giving "kills and perkies" just by being within icon range are funny as hell. you dont get perks for proxies right now, you really think it would be a good change? right now you dont get perkies for damaging an airplane unless you actually get the kill. so why should you get perkies for proxies and not for helping bring a plane down?
semp
I don't think anyone is looking to make it so you cant bail from a good plane, but the cost should be a lot higher.
To a person like you who likes to bail, and avoid the combat other are looking for the price of a couple hundred perks, or bombs not counting toward score or damage done won't bother you, but to others it might be enough for them to think twice and stick it out for the fight. They just need to find the right "carrot".
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fugitive higher than what? I get no perkies or points if I bail before I drop my bombs. so you want to multiply my zero points and perks to make it what? zero again? and if I drop and then bail we already have a system where your perkies and points are cut in what 1/2? so please anybody here do explain how much more you can "punish" bombers anymore?
semp
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btw I sunk a cv today that hadnt been touched, no resistant whatsoever and yet i got 15 perk points. couple of years ago I used to get 25 perks even if it was damaged. but then again you guys dont notice things like that.
semp
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Perhaps the damage model for fighters vs. bombers is flawed. Bomber pilots may be bailing because they stand little chance against the fighters and decide to bail instead of becoming the inevitable kill.
So why not just up the damage criteria to down a bomber? Also why not look at giving them more ammo to defend themselves so maybe they will reconsider the engagement?
Some of the prior postings argue about penalties, loss of score, game restrictions, etc. and other acts of vindictive retribution for those who bail. This one side thinking will result only in cancelled subscriptions which benefits no one. :salute
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No, no, no. That would lead to jabos being replaced by low level buffs leveling everything before they are shot down.
One lesson learned in a very hard way during WW2 was that buffs dont survive against fighters, no matter how many guns they have. Buffs need escort. In AH we have more experienced gunners since we can reup as many times as we want. We also have fighter pilots that constantly volates rule 1A buff killing "-Never attack from dead 6". So buffs in AH are more succesful than buffs irl when it come to defending themselves. Problem is to get the buff pilots to understand that.
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fugitive higher than what? I get no perkies or points if I bail before I drop my bombs. so you want to multiply my zero points and perks to make it what? zero again? and if I drop and then bail we already have a system where your perkies and points are cut in what 1/2? so please anybody here do explain how much more you can "punish" bombers anymore?
semp
Wow, knock the sand out of your ears! CHARGE you a penalty. In the case of the cv you sunk, you get 15 perks, but you bailed so it cost you 85 perks (100-15=85). Would it still be worth it to you to bail or would you fight your way home?
Or if you bail the cv returns to were it was Un damaged, would you still bail?
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Wow, knock the sand out of your ears! CHARGE you a penalty. In the case of the cv you sunk, you get 15 perks, but you bailed so it cost you 85 perks (100-15=85). Would it still be worth it to you to bail or would you fight your way home?
Or if you bail the cv returns to were it was Un damaged, would you still bail?
I fly at 5.5 altitude to sink cv's. I always get hit, so I could bail if I wanted and not be charged with a penalty or I could just dive right into the water or i could turn around and decide to use guns to damage the other ships on the fleet. I can do any of this in order to avoid being attacked by a fighter. even though I hardly ever see anybody defending a cv.
In reality you wont stop those who dont want to fight, but your solution will hurt those who do.
semp
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There must be several different bomb and bail motivations/descriptions.
1.) Screw You Cowboy: Bombing at 30K flying for 2 hours, "When I blow the crap out of this city my need for agency, so unsatisfied in real life will finally be met, euphoria will ensue," watch nme defender darbar grow, when nme fighter within 4K bail. Rationale: passive aggresion more satisfying (bird in hand) than the remote possibility of shooting down nme fighter (2 in bush,) especially when compared to the despair from the shame of failing in an effing VIDEO GAME. "WHY CAN'T I EVER WIN????"
2.) Oh For Chris'sakes: "I have no control surfaces 2 engines etc., my time is valuable for chris'sakes I'm not going to wait around for mister egomaniac fighter jock to set up his high speed off angle run just so he can feel glorious, sorry to offend but its a tough world buddy."
3.) I'm on a MISSION: (not a mission in the sense of pickupmission but in the sense of MISSSION,) "I've GOT to KILL those hangars/gvs in town/ack factory as part of my megalomaniacal plan, the bomber is a tool to be discarded when not working, it doesn't work without bombs, duhhh!! My time is important and I have a JOB TO DO, sorry bub if you don't like it you can go furball with your (young cat/type of willow,) friends."
4.) AFK: Player launched about 90 minutes ago and immediately ALT TAB back to work. Now he's got 15 minutes to play between sales calls, back in the game...."huh, look how far I've gone" RETURN RETURN RETURN "where's a furball anyway...oh look at that big red darbar over the HQ, funny I was just there."
5.) ALT F4: The player hears keys in the front door and remembers all those casual promises he made 5 hours ago in the morning to his wife things like: paint the house, buy groceries, get a job, turn off the stove, feed the baby etc etc and realises he is still in his underware with a puddle of drool on his keyboard ALT F4 ALT F4 ALT F4 ALT F4 ALT F4 ALT F4, panic panic, despair, shame, suicidal thoughts etc. etc. "People were lined up my 6? I've got bigger problems bub, anyone know a good divorce lawyer??"
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I dont defend bomb and bailing. I am pointing out that it is really pointless to try to give solutions to something that isnt really a problem once you realize that there is no solution.
You say there 'is no problem' and 'is no solution' as if they were facts. Yet myself and others find it problematic, and myself and others have suggested solutions. You may - and obviously do - disagree with those solutions, but your argument alone doesn't discount their legitimacy.
I also disagree with your assertion that attempting to address the problem will drive players off. For every action there's an equal & opposite reaction. I'd suggest that any players driven off by the inability for them to game the system will be countered with more players attracted to a simulation environment that enforces simulation-true play. The way I see it, you're likely trading one player who has no real investment or interest in the type of play this game is based on for one who does.
While I have no plans to abandon the game due to this type of activity, I will say that when I 'take a break' from the game, more often than not it's preceded by a day or two of being on the receiving end of heavy gaming... players taking bases with mass suicide attacks (up, bomb, auger, up, bomb, auger, up, bomb, auger)... which invariably include bombing & bailing because... well... that's the only way they can get the job done. You've already had people on this thread admit that they have, in fact, been driven from the game temporarily by this type of activity. Yet you assert that limiting it will drive people from the game. Seems to me you're just choosing one type of gamer over another. Then again - so am I. But I believe the type of gamer I'm choosing is the type this game was made for.
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Increase the bomber's reward (3x?) for shooting down fighters.
Maybe they will stick around in hope of getting more perks for killing attacking fighters than they would from dropping bombs on inanimate objects.
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5.) ALT F4: The player hears keys in the front door and remembers all those casual promises he made 5 hours ago in the morning to his wife things like: paint the house, buy groceries, get a job, turn off the stove, feed the baby etc etc and realises he is still in his underware with a puddle of drool on his keyboard ALT F4 ALT F4 ALT F4 ALT F4 ALT F4 ALT F4, panic panic, despair, shame, suicidal thoughts etc. etc. "People were lined up my 6? I've got bigger problems bub, anyone know a good divorce lawyer??"
:rofl
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Increase the bomber's reward (3x?) for shooting down fighters.
Maybe they will stick around in hope of getting more perks for killing attacking fighters than they would from dropping bombs on inanimate objects.
now this is a great idea.
semp
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Increase the bomber's reward (3x?) for shooting down fighters.
Maybe they will stick around in hope of getting more perks for killing attacking fighters than they would from dropping bombs on inanimate objects.
Brilliant, heck give them 5 times the perks if it will at least make them try. Remember though, there are guys that just aren't very good and still wont stop bailing because 5 times zero is still zero. Still, I like the idea.
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Increase the bomber's reward (3x?) for shooting down fighters.
Maybe they will stick around in hope of getting more perks for killing attacking fighters than they would from dropping bombs on inanimate objects.
Only if they get those points regardless of getting home safe. Then what will you give them to spend those points on?
Late nights pacific time, I run into low level bombers all the time trying to flatten towns and fields I'm defending. Those guys really should get something for providing that much entertainment along with the willingness to steam right in there below 10k.
In the end, Hitech has to agree this is a good idea, or this whole spitballing is one group agrees that Hitech should horse whip another group of players because they are not playing the game in the manner the first group wants them to. Good thing AH is run by a Dictator, Democracy would kill the game in one tour.
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:airplane: no question about it, it is something that is done in this game, which should be corrected some way! If a player doesn't land safely, no credit for what he just did is one solution! I agree with one comment, it would be a programing problem for sure. How about if he/she bails from good aircraft and damage he inflicted be restored at once!
I think the easiest way to correct it is to up the damage amount needed to kill HQ to 75,000 lbs, that would stop a lot of it because then it would involve more than one pilot!
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Or the HQ would stop being worth the trouble for the handful of guys leveraging the system.
What will you give them as a replacement to bother with all of the trouble to get bombers somewhere as enticing as the HQ for the results?
It still comes down to: Hitech, horse whip these guys because they won't let me shoot them down.
One group wants Hitech to punish another group for not playing their way. After all those years of whining that Hitech needed to get the bombers to fly to specific places on the map to allow you to shoot at them WW2 style. Now that you got them herded to those locations by Hitech changing the game to funnel them there. They refuse to cooperate and let you shoot them down. They defy you and bail....Oh the horror.
Hitech give these numpty's AI bombers to shoot down and be done with it. If they don't shoot them down, by by HQ and strats from a 24x7 bomber stream. All three countries, all the time. That will be ww2 style in spades.
And then the whine will be: Hitech we are tired of killing bombers 24x7. Horse whip the guys driving tanks and get them into fighters. There are toooo many bombers that won't bail with lazer guided gunners.
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I'm checking out AH after a long stint of flying Warbirds. I'm primarily a buff pilot and though WB has its share of bomb and bail pilots, I can see how AH's buff set up makes it even more attractive. In AH I have no control over my bomber formation and all three buffs count as a kill. Add to it that AH buffs have no auto gunners as WB's bombers have, and the case is closed. Bombing when there are fighters around is foolish and destine to end in the buffs destruction. Bailing is the only option. AH forces this action. What bomber was allowed to take off on a mission with only one crew member? That is what is ridiculous about AH buffs not the bailing. Rule that at least two players need to be aboard a buff before it takes off. I talked to a trainer asking about squads who flew bomber missions with fighter escort and squad mates manning guns, and I got no response. Does it happen in here? To man a buff raid with gunners and a fighter escort in this AH game means planning and numbers, otherwise a bomber is dead meat. It is no wonder buff pilots bail. As a game based on WW2 history it would be great if players would adequately man their missions because that is what was done in WW2. If there is a squad that does this, I'd join. I was XO of the Duxford Wing in Warbirds.
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Turkey, you can get people to gun for you, but the quality varies.
The best buff pilots are better gunners. The bomb and bailers, arent good gunners because they never fight back enough to get good.
I dont know how wb works, but in ah all guns shoot at once where ever you point. Works good if you practice even a little.
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. Bombing when there are fighters around is foolish and destine to end in the buffs destruction. Bailing is the only option. AH forces this action.
If you stay around and continue to fly bombers for a while, you may very well come back to this post one day... and just smile at it :)
And if you stick at this BBS for a while, you will even see "Bombers are OVERMODELED" threads popping up at regular intervals...
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I'm checking out AH after a long stint of flying Warbirds. I'm primarily a buff pilot and though WB has its share of bomb and bail pilots, I can see how AH's buff set up makes it even more attractive. In AH I have no control over my bomber formation and all three buffs count as a kill. Add to it that AH buffs have no auto gunners as WB's bombers have, and the case is closed. Bombing when there are fighters around is foolish and destine to end in the buffs destruction. Bailing is the only option. AH forces this action. What bomber was allowed to take off on a mission with only one crew member? That is what is ridiculous about AH buffs not the bailing. Rule that at least two players need to be aboard a buff before it takes off. I talked to a trainer asking about squads who flew bomber missions with fighter escort and squad mates manning guns, and I got no response. Does it happen in here? To man a buff raid with gunners and a fighter escort in this AH game means planning and numbers, otherwise a bomber is dead meat. It is no wonder buff pilots bail. As a game based on WW2 history it would be great if players would adequately man their missions because that is what was done in WW2. If there is a squad that does this, I'd join. I was XO of the Duxford Wing in Warbirds.
There are some squads that run big buff groups and will have fighter escorts. Not as many as there us to be but there are still some. Also there are a number of "Generals" that put together missions that have the same type of flights your looking for.
Bailing bombers are those that either cant fight, or are more into getting the bombs out and grabbing another plane to do it again and bail to save time. Fighting in a buff isn't as bad as it seems. Knowing how to jump from gun to gun quickly ( you can program a hat switch to jump positions) and having a good aim you can defend your self against most. It becomes an issue when 2 or 3 or more guys work together which doesn't happen often because most are greedy and want the kills for themselves.
Like Lusche said, if you hang around you'll come back to this thread and just smile.
Good luck, and welcome to Aces High.
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Turkey,
No one takes gunners because this is highly inefficient. It is much better that the second player brings his own three buffs. He can then slave his formation to the leader and concentrate on gunning. They get double the defensive guns (of 6 bombers...) Double the bomb load if the do not lose bombers, and many fighters do not even have enough ammunition to kill 6 bombers - you can simply let the attacker run dry and continue with the bombers left out of your original 6. Yes, it takes that much skill.
Still, the many compromises made for bombers are not the real problem. The ability of a single player to shut down HQ is.
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Increase the bomber's reward (3x?) for shooting down fighters.
Maybe they will stick around in hope of getting more perks for killing attacking fighters than they would from dropping bombs on inanimate objects.
...and they only get those points if they LAND.
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No, I'd leave the formula the same; get shot down or bail, less perks for the kills against fighters.
The basis for the idea is that the increased reward for defending their formation might keep them in the bombers long enough for me to kill them.
Maybe even increase it enough so that killing 2 or 3 fighters generated more perks that a typical bombing run.
i.e.: another pilot and I attack a formation, I get killed, but my wingman finished off the bombers. The bomber pilot should get partial credit for killing me, as well as anything he blew up on the ground before getting shot down.
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Bozon, how does one slave a formation? Also, you got me into flying the mossie with your guide. Interesting plane.
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Bozon, how does one slave a formation? Also, you got me into flying the mossie with your guide. Interesting plane.
.wingman
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Last night I banked 15 perks in my b-17 with only 8k of damage on town,radar, & vh, but I also shot down Sawzaw 3 times along with two other unsavvy souls for 5 Air-to-Air gunnery kills.
Now, I did lose 1 drone to fighter action, but irregardless, it was a much more exciting flight (albeit short range and low alt {8-10k} than if I were to simply bail out after ords dropped.
Bustr as usual makes pretty good sense in his wisdom on the matter. I think the bomb'n bail problem is more of a P*ss off to those fighters attempting to intercept than a buff pilot problem. Think about it, it's not a problem for me to bomb'N'bail, in fact in some instances, it allows me the player to get back into action faster.
Would an increase in perks and proxy range for undamaged buffs bailing out be enough offset to the inconvenience of the fighter pilots?