Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Traveler on May 08, 2015, 08:30:10 AM
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This is from the 8th Air Forces, it’s the stats of every mission flown in ETO , what the target was, how many aircraft, crashed, arrived on target, air loses , ect:
http://www.taphilo.com/history/8thaf/8thaf-missions.xls
It makes for interesting reading and review, it shows how poorly the initial missions were and how the lose rate was so high because the bombers were un-escorted. Some of the losses were so bad that missions had to be canceled while they waited for replacements of aircraft and men.
So why is it that the un-escorted bombers in AH pretty much roam as they please and generally when engaged with fighters the result is far different from what actually happened?
Shouldn’t the un-escorted bombers in AH suffer statistically the same fate as did the aircraft they were modeled after?
What’s different, could it be that the guns of the three bomber box in AH are linked where their counter part of WWII could not coordinate their defensive fire between aircraft in formation. The best they could do was to coordinate fire between themselves on the same plane, but not plane to plane.
I’ve seen fighter after fighter attacking a box of unescorted bombers only to be shot down time after time. There is something not right here. Fighter against un-escorted bombers did much better in WWII then they do in AH. What do you think?
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Comparing history to Aces High leads to nothing but frustration. That said;
1. Bombers tend to fly much higher than the majority of fighters in Aces High. This tends to put any attacking fighter in a tail chase against bomber gunners that are far more accurate in AH than they were historically.
2. Bombers tend to fly faster in AH than they did in large box formations historically. This limits the exposure to enemy intercepts and also promotes a tail chase.
What’s different, could it be that the guns of the three bomber box in AH are linked where their counter part of WWII could not coordinate their defensive fire between aircraft in formation.
That is true but is a good concession for playability for bomber sticks. I remember when they used to fly in singles rather than formations and one bomber pilot had trouble making an impact on anything but the ground.
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"2. Bombers tend to fly faster in AH than they did in large box formations historically. This limits the exposure to enemy intercepts and also promotes a tail chase."
Man, TU2s diving 500MPH+ and staying in one piece... :headscratch:
HTC, wake up and do something plz :rock
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Bombers are extremely vulnerable if you attack them in the correct manner.
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So why is it that the unescorted bombers in AH pretty much roam as they please and generally when engaged with fighters the result is far different from what actually happened?
Not generally
In the past, when we had still numbers and more, bigger bomber raids, most missions that did fly deep into enemy territory without proper escorts had loss rates that let the 'real world' ones pale in comparison. I have seen countless raids under furious attack melting like a snowball in the Sahara.
If you would recreate a scaled down Schweinfurt raid at proper altitudes and historical cruising speeds, most probably no bomber would ever even reach the target. At more typical AH altitudes an speeds, a sizeable fraction would probably reach the target, but only a tiny one could ever expect to reach home.
Overall, AH combat is much more bloody and fatal both for bombers as well as attacking fighters alike.
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Not generally
In the past, when we had still numbers and more, bigger bomber raids, most missions that did fly deep into enemy territory without proper escorts had loss rates that let the 'real world' ones pale in comparison. I have seen countless raids under furious attack melting like a snowball in the Sahara.
If you would recreate a scaled down Schweinfurt raid at proper altitudes and historical cruising speeds, most probably no bomber would ever even reach the target. At more typical AH altitudes an speeds, a sizeable fraction would probably reach the target, but only a tiny one could ever expect to reach home.
Overall, AH combat is much more bloody and fatal both for bombers as well as attacking fighters alike.
My deep penetration bomber raids rarely have any survivors, regardless of escort. Them dam 163 swarms!!!!
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I fly bombers quite abit and my attrition rate has been well over the AVG of 10 % like they were suffering during that period in WWII. So seems rather realistic in that part. Bombers do fly faster in AH but that can also be said of any aircraft in the game due to not having to manually manage all engine functions. No plane flew at full throttle through whole mission so it seems to even out a bit...
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Laser accurate gunner positions also are a factor. Our gunners don't have to deal with recoil bouncing that .50cal around.
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Are suggesting realism be inserted into the game? How dare you!
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"2. Bombers tend to fly faster in AH than they did in large box formations historically. This limits the exposure to enemy intercepts and also promotes a tail chase."
Man, TU2s diving 500MPH+ and staying in one piece... :headscratch:
HTC, wake up and do something plz :rock
Yea thats really stupid, and they take off and still manage to gain speed quickly.
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Throw in the fact that the majority of the players do not know how to properly intercept bombers in this game nor have the patience to set up a proper attack run.
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My deep penetration bomber raids rarely have any survivors, regardless of escort. Them dam 163 swarms!!!!
Maybe you never penetrated as deeply as you thought. ;)
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Add to this the fact that slashing attacks designed to damage a buff and kill the crew are less effective in AH because the standard formations can't be broken up and picked off one by one, and the fact that coordinated attacks with large numbers of fighters are rare.
On the plus side, we do get aircraft that are arguably better at buff killing in game than the German birds are. I'll take a D 40 jug for buff killing over a Dora any day.
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Shouldn’t the un-escorted bombers in AH suffer statistically the same fate as did the aircraft they were modeled after?
No.
HiTech
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This Complaint makes the rounds every few years. And someone eventually posts the link below. The german tactics in the link work just the same in the game. But, you have to expend time getting setup in an attack position or know to ignore the bomber box and accept your own limitations of position.
As for all the rear guns slaved together. Just like back then, in the game it takes about 18 seconds to close to 100yds against our bombers in a tail chase. And just like in ww2, the german pilots died because all of the tail gunners cut them to pieces in those 18 seconds. Speed and high frontal or high beam attacks are what worked unless you had a 1000m stand off weapon. And then you already were a slow wallowing pig killed by the escorts.
Killing bombers was accomplished primarily by two things. Straffing the pilot deck or exploding the bombs. Otherwise that's just a bunch of empty aluminum space to shoot up with bodies to kill. Oh! and just like in our game, back then B24's had a penchant for catching on fire.
http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~josephkennedy/German_Pilot_Perspective.htm
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Add to this the fact that slashing attacks designed to damage a buff and kill the crew are less effective in AH because the standard formations can't be broken up and picked off one by one, and the fact that coordinated attacks with large numbers of fighters are rare.
On the plus side, we do get aircraft that are arguably better at buff killing in game than the German birds are. I'll take a D 40 jug for buff killing over a Dora any day.
And I will take a TA152 over ANY Allied plane any day.
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And I will take a TA152 over ANY Allied plane any day.
Oh yeah. That's is a premier bomber interceptor, especially at the "standard" altitudes they are flown here. :aok Still wish we had a high altitude 109 G14 though. :(
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This Complaint makes the rounds every few years. And someone eventually posts the link below. The german tactics in the link work just the same in the game. But, you have to expend time getting setup in an attack position or know to ignore the bomber box and accept your own limitations of position.
As for all the rear guns slaved together. Just like back then, in the game it takes about 18 seconds to close to 100yds against our bombers in a tail chase. And just like in ww2, the german pilots died because all of the tail gunners cut them to pieces in those 18 seconds. Speed and high frontal or high beam attacks are what worked unless you had a 1000m stand off weapon. And then you already were a slow wallowing pig killed by the escorts.
Killing bombers was accomplished primarily by two things. Straffing the pilot deck or exploding the bombs. Otherwise that's just a bunch of empty aluminum space to shoot up with bodies to kill. Oh! and just like in our game, back then B24's had a penchant for catching on fire.
http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~josephkennedy/German_Pilot_Perspective.htm
Another point is people tend to shoot at the entire plane instead of specific parts. If you are foolish enough to park yourself on a bombers dead 6 but are lucky enough to have a player to cant gun very well onthem. Instead of targeting the body. which more times then not will absorb most if not all your ammo before going down. Try targeting the engines or wingtips. Anything but the center of the aircraft. Otherwise you're just poking holes in aluminum hoping you get lucky enough to hit something important
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When I flew with the 484'th we flew very tight and realistic Bomber box's of 6 to 12 sets of air craft. We often took losses from coordinated fighter attacks. Sometimes heavy losses. Im talking bomber sets 400 to 600 away from each other and still vulnerable to skilled attacks from bomber hunters attacking from several sides at once. They often mitigated the target damage just like they did in '43. Boy we had some fights.
With escorts we did much better. Seemed pretty realistic to me and it sure was fun for both sides. I havnt seen a realistic bomber box in years.
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Maybe you never penetrated as deeply as you thought. ;)
idk man, we go balls to the wall!
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Another point is people tend to shoot at the entire plane instead of specific parts. If you are foolish enough to park yourself on a bombers dead 6 but are lucky enough to have a player to cant gun very well onthem. Instead of targeting the body. which more times then not will absorb most if not all your ammo before going down. Try targeting the engines or wingtips. Anything but the center of the aircraft. Otherwise you're just poking holes in aluminum hoping you get lucky enough to hit something important
A bit difficult tearing in from 2 O'clock high with 450mph + closure. Especially with 30mm's.
I mean I understand what you're getting at, but the engine is a small target, and a proper attack profile doesn't leave a lot of time for correction.
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This is from the 8th Air Forces, it’s the stats of every mission flown in ETO , what the target was, how many aircraft, crashed, arrived on target, air loses , ect:
http://www.taphilo.com/history/8thaf/8thaf-missions.xls
It makes for interesting reading and review, it shows how poorly the initial missions were and how the lose rate was so high because the bombers were un-escorted. Some of the losses were so bad that missions had to be canceled while they waited for replacements of aircraft and men.
So why is it that the un-escorted bombers in AH pretty much roam as they please and generally when engaged with fighters the result is far different from what actually happened?
Shouldn’t the un-escorted bombers in AH suffer statistically the same fate as did the aircraft they were modeled after?
What’s different, could it be that the guns of the three bomber box in AH are linked where their counter part of WWII could not coordinate their defensive fire between aircraft in formation. The best they could do was to coordinate fire between themselves on the same plane, but not plane to plane.
I’ve seen fighter after fighter attacking a box of unescorted bombers only to be shot down time after time. There is something not right here. Fighter against un-escorted bombers did much better in WWII then they do in AH. What do you think?
:airplane: I fly bombers and run missions 98% of the time when I am in the game! I am in the MLW arena, every night running missions. I would say that 90% of the time, we get to the target, maybe someone has lost a drone somewhere in the group, but by and large we get to the target. Only one time comes to mind when no bomber, including myself got to the target, but that day, they knew we were coming and even though we had 4 escort fighters with us and a total of 12 bombers, (4 players), it was a battle royal for 1 and 1/2 sectors, with Angus getting my last two bombers because I was out of ammo.
I think Hi Tech has the game model about right except for one or two aircraft, which needs to be re-visited, the LA7 and the Brewster, both of which are to lethal than they were in real life.
I think by and large, I fly my missions around 13K, just to encourage interception, because that is part of the fun of the game. I think in real life, based on what I have heard and read, bombers didn't fly much over 25K as a rule.
We Rooks love a good fight and if you notice ET37 in a lead bomber, then you know you have flown into a hornets nest, so come on, we welcome your interception! :devil
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A bit difficult tearing in from 2 O'clock high with 450mph + closure. Especially with 30mm's.
I mean I understand what you're getting at, but the engine is a small target, and a proper attack profile doesn't leave a lot of time for correction.
Reread the second sentence.
This part in particular
"If you are foolish enough to park yourself on a bombers dead 6 "
I agree. The best/safest way to attack bombers is from the forward 10-2:00 positions with as much closing speed as possible. Beyond that. against a skilled gunner coming in from a dead 6 is often suicidal. If you do come in from a rear position. Come in at off angles and side slip or fly inconsistent paths to make it harder for the gunner to train on you.
Still. Even coming in from front/front quarters you dont have to always shoot at the body of the aircraft. But rather lead the wings and let them pass through your stream. It can be safer to avoid collisions this way as well
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Almost any fighter on AH can successfully attack and down a bomber formation with little risk, if one has patience. A lot of people have trouble with bombers because they usually attack from 6 o'clock. That's the result of bombers flying above the usual fighter altitude.
There's two techniques that I read in the BBS and found them really useful, those are the two I've been using most of the time:
1. Get co-alt with the formation, and fly parallel with it until you're slightly past their wingtip and 2-3K away, always flying faster than the bombers (not hard). Turn 90 degrees towards them, get your wings level and shoot. It's easy to hit all three bombers like this, and most gunners don't shoot well when you're making passes from 3 or 9 o'clock. The Tu-2 can't even defend from this as it doesn't have waist guns. Get parallel to the formation again, and repeat.
But my favourite technique is this one.
2. Fly a light Bf-109G14 equipped with rockets. Get co-alt with the bombers, approach from dead six (you don't even need to go fast), place the bombers at the bottom of your sight and salvo your rockets the moment you move from 1,5K to 1K. Enjoy the fireworks. Most of the time you'll get two bombers, or at least one and damage the others. Sometimes I've got all three with a single salvo, you've got a nice chance of this if they are B-24.
A smart buff pilot will defend from 1 by turning and making you face their tail guns, but I've rarely encountered this. When using the second strategy most pilots won't turn or take evasive action, they'll assume you're going to attack from dead 6 with cannon fire. I prefer the Bf-109G14 over the Bf-110 because of the faster climb and because most bomber pilots are careful when they see a 110 attempting this approach. They already assume you're gonna use rockets.
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Almost any fighter on AH can successfully attack and down a bomber formation with little risk, if one has patience. A lot of people have trouble with bombers because they usually attack from 6 o'clock. That's the result of bombers flying above the usual fighter altitude.
There's two techniques that I read in the BBS and found them really useful, those are the two I've been using most of the time:
1. Get co-alt with the formation, and fly parallel with it until you're slightly past their wingtip and 2-3K away, always flying faster than the bombers (not hard). Turn 90 degrees towards them, get your wings level and shoot. It's easy to hit all three bombers like this, and most gunners don't shoot well when you're making passes from 3 or 9 o'clock. The Tu-2 can't even defend from this as it doesn't have waist guns. Get parallel to the formation again, and repeat.
But my favourite technique is this one.
2. Fly a light Bf-109G14 equipped with rockets. Get co-alt with the bombers, approach from dead six (you don't even need to go fast), place the bombers at the bottom of your sight and salvo your rockets the moment you move from 1,5K to 1K. Enjoy the fireworks. Most of the time you'll get two bombers, or at least one and damage the others. Sometimes I've got all three with a single salvo, you've got a nice chance of this if they are B-24.
A smart buff pilot will defend from 1 by turning and making you face their tail guns, but I've rarely encountered this. When using the second strategy most pilots won't turn or take evasive action, they'll assume you're going to attack from dead 6 with cannon fire. I prefer the Bf-109G14 over the Bf-110 because of the faster climb and because most bomber pilots are careful when they see a 110 attempting this approach. They already assume you're gonna use rockets.
Xavier's General Stats for Late War Tour 184
Total Sorties: 11
Total Sortie Time: 00:55:31
Sortie Type End Sortie Type
Fighter 7 Landed 4
Attack 0 Discos 0
Bomber 3 Bails 1
Vehicle/Boat 0 Ditches 0
Field Gunner 1 Captured 1
Deaths 3
Late War Tour 184 Statistics for Xavier
Kills Deaths
Model Type Kills In Kills Of Killed By Died In
B-17G 0 2
1
0
Bf 109G-14 2
0 0 1
2 Kills 1 Deaths
Copyright © 2015, HiTech Creations, Inc.
Sorry, but your stats don't show it.
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Xavier's General Stats for Late War Tour 184
Total Sorties: 11
Total Sortie Time: 00:55:31
Sortie Type End Sortie Type
Fighter 7 Landed 4
Attack 0 Discos 0
Bomber 3 Bails 1
Vehicle/Boat 0 Ditches 0
Field Gunner 1 Captured 1
Deaths 3
Late War Tour 184 Statistics for Xavier
Kills Deaths
Model Type Kills In Kills Of Killed By Died In
B-17G 0 2
1
0
Bf 109G-14 2
0 0 1
2 Kills 1 Deaths
Copyright © 2015, HiTech Creations, Inc.
Sorry, but your stats don't show it.
I made a new account a few months after the deletion of my old one. I've been playing this game for about six years now, taking a break now and then. Still, I don't know what does it have to do with what I said. Would those attack approaches be flawed if a newbie mentioned them? Would they be better if a veteran pointed them out? I don't think so. I just fly that way because it works for me, and a lot of others.
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I don't know what does it have to do with what I said.
What is has to do with what you said and your claim that "any aircraft could be use", are the only stats available for you that show using your method , you failed to stop the bombers from reaching target and your attack resulted in death 50% of the time. I have no idea if the stats represent escorted or un-escorted bombers, but I still contend that un-escorted bombers in AH do far better than their real world counter parts.
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What is has to do with what you said and your claim that "any aircraft could be use"
I said that almost any fighter can be used to down bombers, and that stands true. In bombers I've been blown to bits by quite a variety of fighters, including the "slow" ones. On the other hand, I've downed Lancasters in a Brewster, even in a Tu-2. My point is that even a below-average fighter can attack bombers successfully using the correct tactics.
the only stats available for you that show using your method , you failed to stop the bombers from reaching target and your attack resulted in death 50% of the time.
You're assuming I was using those approaches, and I was not.
but I still contend that un-escorted bombers in AH do far better than their real world counter parts.
Yes, that's true. I think it has to do with easier gunning, bombers always flying at top speed and the disposability of fighters. Most people attack bombers from dead six, and it's very easy to defend from that kind of approach.
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It certainly is "how" you attack. While I'm no super hero I have 246 B17 kills to 58 deaths life time. Thats 4.24 to 1 k/d Nothing stellar, but it shows that if you use the right tactics the numbers do prove out well. There are ALWAYS exceptions to the rules. Do you attack in force or by yourself? Are you lucky enough to always find 999000's B17?
I also think it has to do with the fact that this is a game. Attacking poorly just means you reup another plane. In real life it was one and done.
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It certainly is "how" you attack. While I'm no super hero I have 246 B17 kills to 58 deaths life time. Thats 4.24 to 1 k/d Nothing stellar, but it shows that if you use the right tactics the numbers do prove out well. There are ALWAYS exceptions to the rules. Do you attack in force or by yourself? Are you lucky enough to always find 999000's B17?
I also think it has to do with the fact that this is a game. Attacking poorly just means you reup another plane. In real life it was one and done.
For whatever reason. I seem to fair pretty well when I find 999000. Then again. When I suspect its him I take extra precautions and make sure to be more deliberate and disciplined because with him you dont get too many second chances after a mistake
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No.
HiTech
:rofl that's awesome :airplane:
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Many of the great bomber hunters are gone, <poof>. There are a few still left but not like it was.
Then again I cant remember the last time I was assigned a bomber by a box # and expected to skillfully stay in that box # while fighting off enemies and making it to target.
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Last bomber mission i was up against was 8 sets of B-17. And even dough it was attacked by noobs like myself it was destroyed in a matter of minutes, a bunch of 110:s with rockets means a tough day for a bomber formation. They got around 15% of the city and none of them survived. A single formation had done the same damage.
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Though I don't usually go for bombers, I don't think I've been killed since adopting a proper attack profile.
1.5k above, slightly forward on the right hand side, about their 2 o'clock. Heel the fighter over, dive down, dive past, bomber down. Simple as clubbing bish.
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AH and historical reality are very different. In AH the bomber death rates are much higher but a single bomber formation that gets through will destroy the target. In reality, 90% of the bombers got through only to spread hundreds of bombs all across the German country side, except on the intended target.
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And I will take a TA152 over ANY Allied plane any day.
I have some serious problems with gunnery in the TA 152, but then again, killing bombers above 25k is not something I'm particularly good at. I tend to have better luck with hispanos or 50's because the ballistics are generally better. If I've got altitude on a set of buffs I have a very good chance of getting them all in almost any bird with 50's or hispanos.
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I do not know if this still is true, but I remember Lusche filmed a set of B17 diving at 570mph in formation, he had a hard time following because he was compressed in his Me163 :headscratch:
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I have some serious problems with gunnery in the TA 152, but then again, killing bombers above 25k is not something I'm particularly good at. I tend to have better luck with hispanos or 50's because the ballistics are generally better. If I've got altitude on a set of buffs I have a very good chance of getting them all in almost any bird with 50's or hispanos.
If I find myself having trouble getting hits from time to time I fire earlier. If that does not work, I fire even earlier. Throw the 30's out in front of your target and let them fly into them.
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AH and historical reality are very different. In AH the bomber death rates are much higher but a single bomber formation that gets through will destroy the target. In reality, 90% of the bombers got through only to spread hundreds of bombs all across the German country side, except on the intended target.
Well if Germany was the intended target. They didnt miss now did they?
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Well if Germany was the intended target. They didnt miss now did they?
lol
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Well if Germany was the intended target. They didnt miss now did they?
That reminds me a quote from one of the "Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy" books. Quoting from memory stored 20 years ago:
"The art of flying is the ability to throw oneself at the ground - and miss".
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AH and historical reality are very different. In AH the bomber death rates are much higher but a single bomber formation that gets through will destroy the target. In reality, 90% of the bombers got through only to spread hundreds of bombs all across the German country side, except on the intended target.
Have in mind that in WW2 only the formation leader used the bomb sight, the rest of the formation droped when the leader did. Doing the same thing in AH would result in a similar spreadout of the bombs. We also dont have to guess our altitude over target, ground speed, wind etc.
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Maybe you never penetrated as deeply as you thought. ;)
:rofl :rofl
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POTW in the past would up a mix of fighters to attack HQ\strat missions. P51D, P47M, Ta152, Dora, spit14. We didn't bother with attacks from the rear 180. We spent our time setting up for runs at the box's in the front 180 with primary emphasis on the pilot deck. The spit14 is a perfect pilot deck HOing machine above 22k in Hitech's world.
In AH you can take out a bomber box with a Yak9u at 22k by just HOing the pilot on each pass. The Yak9u gets frighteningly fast diving at that alt. And the 12.7 in the hood are enough for killing the pilot if you hold fire until 100yds. Then it is strictly about preparation and positioning like the Germans had to when taking on our bomber streams.
Lately POTW has been sending a 262 flight of up to 6 jets after bomber missions. And the front 180 rule is life or death due to how fragile the engines are to golden BBs. Especially with B24 and evading that nose turret by positioning high to about 10 or 2 o'clock. Better yet two of us, one at 2 and one at 10. High to the front attacks are the hardest for AH gunners to adjust to. But, they take the most time and patience to setup, pass after pass.
You can thank Waystin for the 262 packs. He loves finding bombers in his 262. And he won't share his food. So we are always looking for the big strat raids on the map. Pig logic dictates he cannot eat all of them alone with the small ammo load in a 262. So he is forced to share the meal. He is a true pig.