Un-escorted bombers

[Zoney]

Add to this the fact that slashing attacks designed to damage a buff and kill the crew are less effective in AH because the standard formations can't be broken up and picked off one by one, and the fact that coordinated attacks with large numbers of fighters are rare.

On the plus side, we do get aircraft that are arguably better at buff killing in game than the German birds are. I'll take a D 40 jug for buff killing over a Dora any day.

And I will take a TA152 over ANY Allied plane any day.

[Volron]

And I will take a TA152 over ANY Allied plane any day.

Oh yeah.  That's is a premier bomber interceptor, especially at the "standard" altitudes they are flown here.   Still wish we had a high altitude 109 G14 though.

[DREDIOCK]

This Complaint makes the rounds every few years. And someone eventually posts the link below. The german tactics in the link work just the same in the game. But, you have to expend time getting setup in an attack position or know to ignore the bomber box and accept your own limitations of position.

As for all the rear guns slaved together. Just like back then, in the game it takes about 18 seconds to close to 100yds against our bombers in a tail chase. And just like in ww2, the german pilots died because all of the tail gunners cut them to pieces in those 18 seconds. Speed and high frontal or high beam attacks are what worked unless you had a 1000m stand off weapon. And then you already were a slow wallowing pig killed by the escorts.

Killing bombers was accomplished primarily by two things. Straffing the pilot deck or exploding the bombs. Otherwise that's just a bunch of empty aluminum space to shoot up with bodies to kill. Oh! and just like in our game, back then B24's had a penchant for catching on fire.

http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~josephkennedy/German_Pilot_Perspective.htm

Another point is people tend to shoot at the entire plane instead of specific parts. If you are foolish enough to park yourself  on a bombers dead 6 but are lucky enough to have a player to cant gun very well onthem. Instead of targeting the body. which more times then not will absorb most if not all your ammo before going down. Try targeting the engines or wingtips. Anything but the center of the aircraft. Otherwise you're just poking holes in aluminum hoping you get lucky enough to hit something important

[Rich46yo]

When I flew with the 484'th we flew very tight and realistic Bomber box's of 6 to 12 sets of air craft. We often took losses from coordinated fighter attacks. Sometimes heavy losses. Im talking bomber sets 400 to 600 away from each other and still vulnerable to skilled attacks from bomber hunters attacking from several sides at once. They often mitigated the target damage just like they did in '43. Boy we had some fights.

With escorts we did much better. Seemed pretty realistic to me and it sure was fun for both sides. I havnt seen a realistic bomber box in years.

[glzsqd]

Maybe you never penetrated as deeply as you thought. 

idk man, we go balls to the wall!

[FBKampfer]

Another point is people tend to shoot at the entire plane instead of specific parts. If you are foolish enough to park yourself  on a bombers dead 6 but are lucky enough to have a player to cant gun very well onthem. Instead of targeting the body. which more times then not will absorb most if not all your ammo before going down. Try targeting the engines or wingtips. Anything but the center of the aircraft. Otherwise you're just poking holes in aluminum hoping you get lucky enough to hit something important

A bit difficult tearing in from 2 O'clock high with 450mph + closure. Especially with 30mm's.

I mean I understand what you're getting at, but the engine is a small target, and a proper attack profile doesn't leave a lot of time for correction.

[earl1937]

This is from the 8th Air Forces, it’s the stats of every mission flown in ETO , what the target was, how many aircraft, crashed, arrived on target, air loses , ect:

http://www.taphilo.com/history/8thaf/8thaf-missions.xls

It makes for interesting reading and review, it shows how poorly the initial missions were and how the lose rate was so high because the bombers were un-escorted.   Some of the losses were so bad that missions had to be canceled while they waited for replacements of aircraft and men.
So why is it that the un-escorted bombers in AH pretty much roam as they please and generally when engaged with fighters the result is far different from what actually happened?   

Shouldn’t the un-escorted bombers in AH suffer statistically the same fate as did the aircraft they were modeled after?
What’s different, could it be that the guns of the three bomber box in AH are linked where their counter part of WWII could not coordinate their defensive fire between aircraft in formation.  The best they could do was to coordinate fire between themselves on the same plane, but not plane to plane.
I’ve seen fighter  after fighter attacking a box of unescorted bombers only to be shot down  time after time.  There is something not right here.  Fighter against un-escorted bombers did much better in WWII then they do in AH.  What do you think?

I fly bombers and run missions 98% of the time when I am in the game! I am in the MLW arena, every night running missions. I would say that 90% of the time, we get to the target, maybe someone has lost a drone somewhere in the group, but by and large we get to the target. Only one time comes to mind when no bomber, including myself got to the target, but that day, they knew we were coming and even though we had 4 escort fighters with us and a total of 12 bombers, (4 players), it was a battle royal for 1 and 1/2 sectors, with Angus getting my last two bombers because I was out of ammo.
I think Hi Tech has the game model about right except for one or two aircraft, which needs to be re-visited, the LA7 and the Brewster, both of which are to lethal than they were in real life.
I think by and large, I fly my missions around 13K, just to encourage interception, because that is part of the fun of the game. I think in real life, based on what I have heard and read, bombers didn't fly much over 25K as a rule.
We Rooks love a good fight and if you notice ET37 in a lead bomber, then you know you have flown into a hornets nest, so come on, we welcome your interception!

[DREDIOCK]

A bit difficult tearing in from 2 O'clock high with 450mph + closure. Especially with 30mm's.

I mean I understand what you're getting at, but the engine is a small target, and a proper attack profile doesn't leave a lot of time for correction.

Reread the second sentence.

This part in particular
"If you are foolish enough to park yourself  on a bombers dead 6 "

I agree. The best/safest way to attack bombers is from the forward 10-2:00 positions with as much closing speed as possible. Beyond that. against a skilled gunner coming in from a dead 6 is often suicidal. If you do come in from a rear position. Come in at off angles and side slip or fly inconsistent paths to make it harder for the gunner to train on you.

Still. Even coming in from front/front quarters you dont have to always shoot at the body of the aircraft. But rather lead the wings and let them pass through your stream. It can be safer to avoid collisions this way as well

[Xavier]

Almost any fighter on AH can successfully attack and down a bomber formation with little risk, if one has patience. A lot of people have trouble with bombers because they usually attack from 6 o'clock. That's the result of bombers flying above the usual fighter altitude.

There's two techniques that I read in the BBS and found them really useful, those are the two I've been using most of the time:

1. Get co-alt with the formation, and fly parallel with it until you're slightly past their wingtip and 2-3K away, always flying faster than the bombers (not hard). Turn 90 degrees towards them, get your wings level and shoot. It's easy to hit all three bombers like this, and most gunners don't shoot well when you're making passes from 3 or 9 o'clock. The Tu-2 can't even defend from this as it doesn't have waist guns. Get parallel to the formation again, and repeat.

But my favourite technique is this one.

2. Fly a light Bf-109G14 equipped with rockets. Get co-alt with the bombers, approach from dead six (you don't even need to go fast), place the bombers at the bottom of your sight and salvo your rockets the moment you move from 1,5K to 1K. Enjoy the fireworks. Most of the time you'll get two bombers, or at least one and damage the others. Sometimes I've got all three with a single salvo, you've got a nice chance of this if they are B-24.

A smart buff pilot will defend from 1 by turning and making you face their tail guns, but I've rarely encountered this. When using the second strategy most pilots won't turn or take evasive action, they'll assume you're going to attack from dead 6 with cannon fire. I prefer the Bf-109G14 over the Bf-110 because of the faster climb and because most bomber pilots are careful when they see a 110 attempting this approach. They already assume you're gonna use rockets.

[Traveler]

Almost any fighter on AH can successfully attack and down a bomber formation with little risk, if one has patience. A lot of people have trouble with bombers because they usually attack from 6 o'clock. That's the result of bombers flying above the usual fighter altitude.

There's two techniques that I read in the BBS and found them really useful, those are the two I've been using most of the time:

1. Get co-alt with the formation, and fly parallel with it until you're slightly past their wingtip and 2-3K away, always flying faster than the bombers (not hard). Turn 90 degrees towards them, get your wings level and shoot. It's easy to hit all three bombers like this, and most gunners don't shoot well when you're making passes from 3 or 9 o'clock. The Tu-2 can't even defend from this as it doesn't have waist guns. Get parallel to the formation again, and repeat.

But my favourite technique is this one.

2. Fly a light Bf-109G14 equipped with rockets. Get co-alt with the bombers, approach from dead six (you don't even need to go fast), place the bombers at the bottom of your sight and salvo your rockets the moment you move from 1,5K to 1K. Enjoy the fireworks. Most of the time you'll get two bombers, or at least one and damage the others. Sometimes I've got all three with a single salvo, you've got a nice chance of this if they are B-24.

A smart buff pilot will defend from 1 by turning and making you face their tail guns, but I've rarely encountered this. When using the second strategy most pilots won't turn or take evasive action, they'll assume you're going to attack from dead 6 with cannon fire. I prefer the Bf-109G14 over the Bf-110 because of the faster climb and because most bomber pilots are careful when they see a 110 attempting this approach. They already assume you're gonna use rockets.

Xavier's General Stats for Late War Tour 184
Total Sorties: 11
Total Sortie Time: 00:55:31
Sortie Type       End Sortie Type
Fighter   7       Landed   4
Attack   0       Discos   0
Bomber   3       Bails   1
Vehicle/Boat   0       Ditches   0
Field Gunner   1       Captured   1
            Deaths   3

Late War Tour 184 Statistics for Xavier
    Kills   Deaths
Model Type   Kills In   Kills Of   Killed By   Died In
B-17G   0   2
1
0
Bf 109G-14   2
0   0   1

    2 Kills   1 Deaths

Copyright © 2015, HiTech Creations, Inc.
 

Sorry, but your stats don't show it.

[Xavier]

Xavier's General Stats for Late War Tour 184
Total Sorties: 11
Total Sortie Time: 00:55:31
Sortie Type       End Sortie Type
Fighter   7       Landed   4
Attack   0       Discos   0
Bomber   3       Bails   1
Vehicle/Boat   0       Ditches   0
Field Gunner   1       Captured   1
            Deaths   3

Late War Tour 184 Statistics for Xavier
    Kills   Deaths
Model Type   Kills In   Kills Of   Killed By   Died In
B-17G   0   2
1
0
Bf 109G-14   2
0   0   1

    2 Kills   1 Deaths

Copyright © 2015, HiTech Creations, Inc.
 

Sorry, but your stats don't show it.

I made a new account a few months after the deletion of my old one. I've been playing this game for about six years now, taking a break now and then. Still, I don't know what does it have to do with what I said. Would those attack approaches be flawed if a newbie mentioned them? Would they be better if a veteran pointed them out? I don't think so. I just fly that way because it works for me, and a lot of others.

[Traveler]

I don't know what does it have to do with what I said.

What is has to do with what you said and your claim that "any aircraft could be use", are the only stats available for you that show using your method , you failed to stop the bombers from reaching target and your attack resulted in death 50% of the time. I have no idea if the stats represent escorted or un-escorted bombers, but I still contend that un-escorted bombers in AH do far better than their real world counter parts.

[Xavier]

What is has to do with what you said and your claim that "any aircraft could be use"

I said that almost any fighter can be used to down bombers, and that stands true. In bombers I've been blown to bits by quite a variety of fighters, including the "slow" ones. On the other hand, I've downed Lancasters in a Brewster, even in a Tu-2. My point is that even a below-average fighter can attack bombers successfully using the correct tactics.

the only stats available for you that show using your method , you failed to stop the bombers from reaching target and your attack resulted in death 50% of the time.

You're assuming I was using those approaches, and I was not.

but I still contend that un-escorted bombers in AH do far better than their real world counter parts.

Yes, that's true. I think it has to do with easier gunning, bombers always flying at top speed and the disposability of fighters. Most people attack bombers from dead six, and it's very easy to defend from that kind of approach.

[The Fugitive]

It certainly is "how" you attack. While I'm no super hero I have 246 B17 kills to 58 deaths life time. Thats 4.24 to 1 k/d Nothing stellar, but it shows that if you use the right tactics the numbers do prove out well. There are ALWAYS exceptions to the rules. Do you attack in force or by yourself? Are you lucky enough to always find 999000's B17?

I also think it has to do with the fact that this is a game. Attacking poorly just means you reup another plane. In real life it was one and done.

[DREDIOCK]

It certainly is "how" you attack. While I'm no super hero I have 246 B17 kills to 58 deaths life time. Thats 4.24 to 1 k/d Nothing stellar, but it shows that if you use the right tactics the numbers do prove out well. There are ALWAYS exceptions to the rules. Do you attack in force or by yourself? Are you lucky enough to always find 999000's B17?

I also think it has to do with the fact that this is a game. Attacking poorly just means you reup another plane. In real life it was one and done.

For whatever reason. I seem to fair pretty well when I find 999000. Then again. When I suspect its him I take extra precautions and make sure to be more deliberate and disciplined because with him you dont get too many second chances after a mistake