Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Interceptor on June 08, 2015, 07:10:06 AM
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So many times you shoot at an "undamaged" plane flying in a dogfight, u spend 5 minutes struggling, you finally shoot him down and...You got an "assist" !
Many other simulations use this system, and it's working very well (obviously sometimes u got some who try to "shoot the burning plane", but thats really rare,and anyway noone want to be called a victory stealer in a multiplayer game...)
HTC current system is based on mathematic dmg formulas, but most of the time it grants the kill to someone who isnt even fighting the enemy plane anymore, sometimes on RTB...!)
To be honest, if an enemy plane has no visible (or not enough) damages and can keep flying, or even fighting(!), then the "kill" isnt earned, its earned when the enemy plane is down.
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Both systems have their flaws. The current system's issues are well-known, but the "last shooter" system opens the door for opportunistic pilots to get a couple of bullets into a plane that's spiraling out of control (but before the pilot bails) and claim a kill. It means that someone who puts a few .303's into a B-17 at the last second gets the credit and the perkies while the TA 152 that put 4 taters into the wing root gets nothing. I'm not saying the current system is perfect; I'm only saying that the "last shooter" system can be just as unfair, if not moreso, and probably lends itself to more abuse.
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Many other simulations use this system, and it's working very well (obviously sometimes u got some who try to "shoot the burning plane", but thats really rare,and anyway noone want to be called a victory stealer in a multiplayer game...)
AH had this system, but it was changed for the very reasons you give, which are incorrect in just one point: It wasn't rare at all.
People get called all kinds of stuff, yet they don't stop picking, hoing running and so on. Calling someone a "killstealer" did never stop anyone from actually doing it. ;)
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How about if both pilots get an assist? That would teach people to finish their food properly :)
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I'll take the current system over a "last shooter" version. Yes, its odd to take the wing off a plane that appears to be intact & fighting and only get an assist, but the kill stealing thing was a cause for much whining.
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-1.
Kill stealing is not really rare in other simulations, and the "last shooter" approach tends to lend itself to the less skilled stealing others' kills. The player who contributed the most damage to the downed aircraft should get the kill, as it should be and as it currently is.
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Many other simulations use this system, and it's working very well (obviously sometimes u got some who try to "shoot the burning plane", but thats really rare,and anyway noone want to be called a victory stealer in a multiplayer game...)
-1 It is "really rare" because we have the system in place that we do. If you change the way kills are scored, this will no longer be the case. Guaranteed!
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An alternative is a shared victory, for ex: >75% of damage - gives u the entire kill, >35% but <75% gives u a shared (½) kill. <35% gives nothing (ok an assist).
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I shot the vertical stab and rudder off a b17 the other day and it was going down. Typed it in buffer and called out on vox and still 2 players came in, shot it up and stole what would of been my kill. Later I watched those same players land many kills for their sortie. ?????? People try to steal my kills all the time. This includes so called "righteous" players who claim to play fair. No way would I let last shooter get a kill for something I earned. This is why I never complain about getting assists.
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I shot the vertical stab and rudder off a b17 the other day and it was going down. Typed it in buffer and called out on vox and still 2 players came in, shot it up and stole what would of been my kill. Later I watched those same players land many kills for their sortie. ?????? People try to steal my kills all the time. This includes so called "righteous" players who claim to play fair. No way would I let last shooter get a kill for something I earned. This is why I never complain about getting assists.
To the best of my knowledge, once an aircraft has been damaged to "100%" (i.e. a vertical stab comes off, an entire wing [not just the tip], the entire tail, both elevators, etc.), the damage stops being tallied for the contributing players (effectively, you can't do more than 100% damage). I've tested this extensively, hundreds of times, and this has held true.
If you shot his stab off but weren't awarded the kill, it's because damage was done to him prior to you shooting off the stabilizer, not after.
Someone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but as I mentioned, I've tested this thoroughly and found this to be true in every case I've encountered.
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To the best of my knowledge, once an aircraft has been damaged to "100%" (i.e. a vertical stab comes off, an entire wing [not just the tip], the entire tail, both elevators, etc.), the damage stops being tallied for the contributing players (effectively, you can't do more than 100% damage). I've tested this extensively, hundreds of times, and this has held true.
If you shot his stab off but weren't awarded the kill, it's because damage was done to him prior to you shooting off the stabilizer, not after.
Someone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but as I mentioned, I've tested this thoroughly and found this to be true in every case I've encountered.
Really? Why do you worry about what I say? My position remains the same based on the greedy behavior of fellow players. Don't waste our time by analyzing other peoples comments as if you are an authority on anything.
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Really? Why do you worry about what I say? My position remains the same based on the greedy behavior of fellow players. Don't waste our time by analyzing other peoples comments as if you are an authority on anything.
I wasn't analyzing your comment or attempting to read or put anything into your post, I was simply clarifying, from experience, to others who might come along and read it (as new players can frequent here as well). As I mentioned, once a "critical component" is damaged, the kill cannot be stolen by others shooting at it post-damage - it is simply awarded to whomever did the most damage up to that point.
We can test this in a custom arena if you'd like.
My apologies if it read any other way.
-=S=-
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How about the one who did the most damage within 4k of the kill site gets it. Unless none of the people in that area damaged the plane or there are no enemies in 4k, then the kill will be awarded like normal.
That way if someone shoots up a bomber formation and runs home they can't sit on the runway hoping to get more kills from the next interceptor( seen it a few times when going after strat runners)
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A person who gets an assist, should get some perks, half the perks a killer would get or at least .5 or 1. After all with out his contribution , the plane might not have gone down.
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A person who gets an assist, should get some perks, half the perks a killer would get or at least .5 or 1. After all with out his contribution , the plane might not have gone down.
Ganging to the 10th power.
Conversely, shouldn't the guy who gets shot by all those hand holders get perks instead? You want to give perks for tag teaming, but what about the guy who has to fight the gang? Certainly more perk worthy than what you propose.
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OP:
No. The current system in place is better than what you have described. We had something like that in the past and it didn't work well, with people "kill stealing" (I've had it happen more than a few times). Have better aim (for the record, I couldn't hit the ground with my hat in 3 tries), or choose a plane with a bigger punch. :)
Ganging to the 10th power.
Conversely, shouldn't the guy who gets shot by all those hand holders get perks instead? You want to give perks for tag teaming, but what about the guy who has to fight the gang? Certainly more perk worthy than what you propose.
Being rewarded for inflicting damage isn't an overly bad idea. It is how they go about implementing it that is the doozy. But think for a moment, if HTC were to implement it, I would HIGHLY DOUBT that it would be in a manner that would result in this. The reward would be just enough that a player gets something for their hits, but not enough to "farm" it. Personally, I don't care. :) Getting in there and shooting up stuff is fun, whether I get the kill or not. :aok
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Being rewarded for inflicting damage isn't an overly bad idea
You already get a reward for it.
Score.
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You already get a reward for it.
Score.
You can't use score for anything other than impressing the ladies and controlling CVs. Now while impressing the ladies is of paramount importance to some, a lot of us prefer our rewards in the form of something that is useful, like perks. ;)
I think everybody pinging the victim getting a share of the perks is a terrible idea, maybe the top 2 or 3 damage dealers?
Honestly I don't think it'd be worth the coding but if they were looking to change it, that's what I'd do.
Wiley.
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You already get a reward for it.
Score.
Ha! What is score? :D
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Then its sad, because in other Sims i ve played i ve rarely seen players running after the burning plane to steal a kill in front of all others...
I thought AH2 had as many grownups than other Sims...Even War Thunder, with tons of kids inside, use this system and almost dont have kill stealers (i mean ppl who WANT to steal, not those who play like mad dogs running after a car sometimes...) :confused:
-1 It is "really rare" because we have the system in place that we do. If you change the way kills are scored, this will no longer be the case. Guaranteed!
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Then its sad, because in other Sims i ve played i ve rarely seen players running after the burning plane to steal a kill in front of all others...
I thought AH2 had as many grownups than other Sims...Even War Thunder, with tons of kids inside, use this system and almost dont have kill stealers (i mean ppl who WANT to steal, not those who play like mad dogs running after a car sometimes...) :confused:
You're obviously relatively new to this game, or at the least you never played AH prior to the change on who gets the kill credit.
Here is a tip...improve your gunnery skills and you won't have to worry about people stealing your kills or getting an assist.
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You can't use score for anything other than impressing the ladies and controlling CVs. Now while impressing the ladies is of paramount importance to some, a lot of us prefer our rewards in the form of something that is useful, like perks. ;)
I think everybody pinging the victim getting a share of the perks is a terrible idea, maybe the top 2 or 3 damage dealers?
Honestly I don't think it'd be worth the coding but if they were looking to change it, that's what I'd do.
Wiley.
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/more_porks_zpslj7p7xca.png~original)
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Then its sad, because in other Sims i ve played i ve rarely seen players running after the burning plane to steal a kill in front of all others...
I thought AH2 had as many grownups than other Sims...Even War Thunder, with tons of kids inside, use this system and almost dont have kill stealers (i mean ppl who WANT to steal, not those who play like mad dogs running after a car sometimes...) :confused:
Oh? I see it quite a lot in WT.
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2 Words, "Kill Stealer"!
this would be a bad thing to impliment because If i load a target with rounds first and someone comes in with a ping right before he goes into the ground. I would get angry. :bhead :bhead
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Well, you must admit that, 95% of time, the last shooter is the one who really knocked the enemy plane out with a wing off/fuel ignition/pilot kill/etc... :rock
2 Words, "Kill Stealer"!
this would be a bad thing to impliment because If i load a target with rounds first and someone comes in with a ping right before he goes into the ground. I would get angry. :bhead :bhead
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NO
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Well, you must admit that, 95% of time, the last shooter is the one who really knocked the enemy plane out with a wing off/fuel ignition/pilot kill/etc... :rock
Well of course it was the last guy that shot since it was there when he fired and then the wing came off. If, however it takes 100 50 cals to take off that wing and someone else has hit it 99 times do you think the guy that put one bullet in it deserves the kill?
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I think that if the 99 "previous damage" didnt down the enemy plane, then NO he doesnt deserve the kill as the job isnt done : Job is to shoot down a plane, not to damage it. Without the guy who did the necessary remaining (1 or 100%) damage, the enemy plane would still be flying and dangerous.
You should be awarded the kill because u downed the plane, not because "u did more damage", thats obvious... :rock
Well of course it was the last guy that shot since it was there when he fired and then the wing came off. If, however it takes 100 50 cals to take off that wing and someone else has hit it 99 times do you think the guy that put one bullet in it deserves the kill?
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Here is a tip...improve your gunnery skills and you won't have to worry about people stealing your kills or getting an assist.
This is a good tip.
Now the real question is, who was Interceptor trying to shoot down when he failed to get the kill? :D
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Doesn't pilot wound trump any plane damage?
An example. If I give the red a pilot wound but his plane flies off without a problem, then my fellow country man can take his wing off sending the red spiraling into the ground but I still get the kill. Right?
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Doesn't pilot wound trump any plane damage?
An example. If I give the red a pilot wound but his plane flies off without a problem, then my fellow country man can take his wing off sending the red spiraling into the ground but I still get the kill. Right?
No. I thought that it worked this way too (having read it previously on the forums), but I've been shot down twice this tour when pilot wounded and the kill went to a player other than who wounded me. And in both cases, the wounding pilot was still up and flying.
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I think that if the 99 "previous damage" didnt down the enemy plane, then NO he doesnt deserve the kill as the job isnt done : Job is to shoot down a plane, not to damage it. Without the guy who did the necessary remaining (1 or 100%) damage, the enemy plane would still be flying and dangerous.
You should be awarded the kill because u downed the plane, not because "u did more damage", thats obvious... :rock
No, it's not obvious, its ridiculous.
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Not "me", i just hear ppl everyday saying "wth, i got an assist and i just got his wing off?!" or "Damn, i got an assist after that long dogfight ?! I made him burn!" or "sorry, i think i got the kill, u deserved it... :( " , etc...
This is a good tip.
Now the real question is, who was Interceptor trying to shoot down when he failed to get the kill? :D
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The enemy plane was still flying, dangerous and fighting : ofc the one that shot AND made the wing finally come off deserves the kill : wing was still ON despite previous damage=job not done. :old:
Well of course it was the last guy that shot since it was there when he fired and then the wing came off. If, however it takes 100 50 cals to take off that wing and someone else has hit it 99 times do you think the guy that put one bullet in it deserves the kill?
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Hey Interceptor, I have proof that the guy who wrote the code and owns the game agrees with me, not you.
It's simple the system is not coded for what you are saying should happen therefore...................w ell..................
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Hey Interceptor, I have proof that the guy who wrote the code and owns the game agrees with me, not you.
It's simple the system is not coded for what you are saying should happen therefore...................w ell..................
Wow, seems Skully7, in a previous post, was totally right about some here in this Forum...Sad but true. :salute
See Rule #4
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Wow, seems Skully7, in a previous post, was totally right about some here in this Forum...Sad but true. :salute
So anybody that doesn't agree with you is suppressing the discussion? You've made your point, people have explained why they disagree. At this point it's not discussion, it's just gainsaying.
Wiley.
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When someone's argument is "Ridiculous" and "anyway i know everything, i know HTC agrees with me so just stfu", then yes i think it is.
It's a"wishes" forum, i defend my point of view with valid points.
Anyway, im done. And for zoney, just think 2 sec about this : in WWII kills werent granted to the pilot who did the most damages on an enemy plane, it was granted to the guy that shot down the plane, whatever condition it was before.
So YES, i consider granting the kill to the guy who shot down the plane by doing the necessary remaining (or complete) damage so the wing finaly went off DESERVES the kill, it was like that in WWII, it would add realism, and many players ingame i spoke with are ok with that change idea. :salute
So anybody that doesn't agree with you is suppressing the discussion? You've made your point, people have explained why they disagree. At this point it's not discussion, it's just gainsaying.
Wiley.
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i spoke with are ok with that change idea. :salute
Sir, I see no preponderance of players posting an agreement with you on this board. This is a subject I strongly disagree with and I will voice my opinion as you have. I've never once told you to shut up because I disagree with you. If you are going to continue to voice your point of view then I am also. Please do not misconstrue my rebuttal of "ridiculous" to be pointed at you as a person sir, just your idea.
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At this point it's not discussion, it's just gainsaying.
No it isn't! :D
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in WWII kills werent granted to the pilot who did the most damages on an enemy plane, it was granted to the guy that shot down the plane, whatever condition it was before.
And why might that be? Could it possibly be due to the fact that they didn't have reliable information to determine who did the most damage, and it was far easier to see that that plane was firing when the bandit went out of control and crashed, versus counting the hits made in the midst of combat?
In here, the system can tell exactly how many bullets you hit him with. Why not apply that information to more accurately reflect the reality of what happened?
So YES, i consider granting the kill to the guy who shot down the plane by doing the necessary remaining (or complete) damage so the wing finaly went off DESERVES the kill, it was like that in WWII, it would add realism, and many players ingame i spoke with are ok with that change idea. :salute
How does he DESERVE it when he did an amount of damage that wouldn't have killed it and the only reason he made the part fall off was because of the damage done previously?
He didn't earn that kill. He was in the right place at the right time to finish the job, but he didn't do the most work.
No it isn't! :D
Yes it is! ;)
Wiley.
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To the best of my knowledge, once an aircraft has been damaged to "100%" (i.e. a vertical stab comes off, an entire wing [not just the tip], the entire tail, both elevators, etc.), the damage stops being tallied for the contributing players (effectively, you can't do more than 100% damage). I've tested this extensively, hundreds of times, and this has held true.
<snip>
Bingo. Once a plane is deemed dead/destroyed, no more damage will be assessed.
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Bingo. Once a plane is deemed dead/destroyed, no more damage will be assessed.
Here's a question I've been meaning to ask: Does shooting at a "destroyed" plane still contribute to a player's accuracy statistic? Or does the accuracy tally stop once the damage hits the determined threshold?
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Here's a question I've been meaning to ask: Does shooting at a "destroyed" plane still contribute to a player's accuracy statistic? Or does the accuracy tally stop once the damage hits the determined threshold?
Accuracy is still tallied, but damage points are not awarded.
Also the way we try set up the "Dead Plane" is if the plane is still controllable, and hence land-able it is not deemed as "Dead", hence a Pilot wounded plane would still score damage, because it could still be landed.
HiTech
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Anyway, im done. And for zoney, just think 2 sec about this : in WWII kills werent granted to the pilot who did the most damages on an enemy plane, it was granted to the guy that shot down the plane, whatever condition it was before.
In most cases it would be a shared kill credit amongst the various planes that attributed to the shoot down.
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When someone's argument is "Ridiculous" and "anyway i know everything, i know HTC agrees with me so just stfu", then yes i think it is.
It's a"wishes" forum, i defend my point of view with valid points.
Anyway, im done. And for zoney, just think 2 sec about this : in WWII kills werent granted to the pilot who did the most damages on an enemy plane, it was granted to the guy that shot down the plane, whatever condition it was before.
So YES, i consider granting the kill to the guy who shot down the plane by doing the necessary remaining (or complete) damage so the wing finaly went off DESERVES the kill, it was like that in WWII, it would add realism, and many players ingame i spoke with are ok with that change idea. :salute
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That would all end the moment they are hammering away at a plane and it's smoking, pilot wounded, radiator hit and a fuel leak - and then a friendly swoops down and takes his wing off to steal the kill. Who in the world (aside from the stealer) would be OK with that?
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So lets look at it from the other angle Interceptor. You tangle with another plane and after minutes of hard flying, you finally get the advantage and open fire. you riddle him with bullets, taking more and more pieces of his plane. His rudder gone, Flaps gone, maybe missing an aileron, possibly pilot wounded. Obviously a sitting duck now. you maneuver in for the kill, just then a Pony comes screaming by, hits him with 1 or 2 shots, and he's dead. The Pony deserves the kill for all the work you just did ? :headscratch:
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not repeating cladera, seems we posted same scenario at same time lol
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When new, kills are rare, and I fully understand the reason for your request. While it doesn't seem fair now, later when you have improved you wouldn't like the scoring system you propose.
Think about it. You fight a guy for 5 minutes taking multiple parts off his plane. He's going down, and someone swoops in to help, gets the last ping before your quarry hits the ground, HE gets the kill. Would you still feel like your proposed scoring system is fair?
I would honestly like the OP to answer this one.
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Accuracy is still tallied, but damage points are not awarded.
Also the way we try set up the "Dead Plane" is if the plane is still controllable, and hence land-able it is not deemed as "Dead", hence a Pilot wounded plane would still score damage, because it could still be landed.
HiTech
Perfect! Thank you, sir.
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I still have film of how bad it was under the rule change the OP requested. I would shoot a wing off of an airplane and ten guys would chase it to the deck shooting all the way. The old method was ridiculous, because of the way people took advantage of it.
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I still have film of how bad it was under the rule change the OP requested. I would shoot a wing off of an airplane and ten guys would chase it to the deck shooting all the way. The old method was ridiculous, because of the way people took advantage of it.
I still see it happening today even though they don't get the kill...
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I still see it happening today even though they don't get the kill...
Not like it was. Not nearly like it was.
I recall watching battles be lost because so many would throw away their altitude in an attempt to gain a kill on a falling carcass. I saw that from both sides, pathetic when your team is the one that does it, funny when the enemy team would do it.
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To be a bit more neutral to who did what, award the two players only assists who did the most amount of damage resulting in downing the con. Didn't some countries award partial kills while a full kill had to be witnessed as the single pilot causing the death? That would inspire a whole new whine in here, wouldn't it?
So in WW2 if two or three of you were witnessed to placing rounds in an enemy which resulted in that enemy plane witnessed as going down. You all got partials for your kill tag on the side of your plane. Shouldn't a kill all to yourself be a bit more special in nature and effort? I guess the down side to this would be an increase in HOing just to get your name in lights to avoid the special effort.
Aren't you guys glad we don't have ghosting in our game..... :O
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Keep in mind that a key difference between a computer game and WWII, in terms of counting score, is that the computer game can very precisely determine who did more damage, or if a kill even happened. As I am sure you are all aware, almost all nations (hello Finland, good job on being the exception) massively over claimed the number of enemy aircraft shot down.
Basically, a computer game makes scoring fair instead of arbitrary.
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I say we keep the current damage system, but allow assists to detract from the "kill" value of target, while counting as partial kills for those who got an assist.
Example:
Pilots A, B, and C shoot down pilot X. Pilot A did the majority of the damage, so he is awarded 1 "kill" point. However, pilots B and C assisted, so they are each awarded .2 kill points each. These could also be subtracted from pilot A, so he ends up with .6 kill points.
This awards all players who contributed to a kill.
The only downside I can see to it is players who are good shots rolling around tagging everyone they encounter once, allowing others to finish the kills, getting .2 points every time they do it. While the average player wouldn't be able to benefit from this, a good pilot could game this to increase Kills/Time, Kills/Deaths, and Kill Points quite easily.
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You don't say? Wait ... you say. Admitting, in the end, how your say can be gamed. Meh. This ain't Fighter Ace. Change your squad name. And .... this ain't broke. :D
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You don't say? Wait ... you say. Admitting, in the end, how your say can be gamed. Meh. This ain't Fighter Ace. Change your squad name. And .... this ain't broke. :D
Any system can be gamed, this one included; none are perfect. If I see an aircraft with half a wing, or damage on another component, I just aim for an undamaged area of a completely different component. Missing half of your left wing? I'll simply avoid it and shoot off the right wing, thereby becoming the greatest damage contributor. I have film after film of doing this, and it's easy. Roughly 10% of my encounters end up in assists, which means I get the kill 90% of the time whether the plane is already damaged or not.
Do I do this for the majority of my kills? No, but I have no problem ensuring that the planes I shoot at count as kills.
I prefer the system we have, I simply think assists should mean more than just score points, but I'm fine with the current implementation regardless. I just think it can be improved with a slight addition.
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I would honestly like the OP to answer this one.
Interceptor, still haven't answered this one.. Bueller, Bueller...