Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on August 19, 2015, 08:22:00 PM
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But rather union workers.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Investigation-2013-Dreamliner-fire-caused-by-crossed-wires-322282171.html
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Don't tell beet1e otherwise you'll destroy his only argument against Boeing.
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See Rule #14
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Lithium batteries and the design was new to the Boeing fleet in the 787.
Boeing will continue to move production lines either to Right to Work states or overseas. The union has no say so over WHERE the work moves, only the contracted negotiated for existing work.
It's a dog eat dog world out there, the unions have out-priced themselves selfishly while taking American workers jobs with them during their spiral from grace.
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That is not an improvement.
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Unions :rofl
Free market economy :rofl
Giberish and you know it.
They will making them in China in 25 years time and you will be scratching your butts trying to figure out how it happened.
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First of all you can't blame American manufacturers for moving out of country. American manufacturers pay the highest tax at 39%. So yes....to make a profit is essential.
They have to! The more the better! After all there are things called share holders that have to be satisfied. Employees also. This is not greed it is survival. Over 70% of all jobs in the US are government jobs. In order to become successful as a country that percentage of Govt. jobs has to drop. Govt. workers are paid with tax money paid by all of us. When Govt. Employees pay taxes .....guess what? They pay them with tax payers monies. You wish to balance a budget? Lower the national debt.? Encourage the private sector to hire!
How does one do that? Lower the tax rate that Corps. pay. Even a slight decrease will encourage more expansion in the US, bring some jobs back and encourage the creation
of more private sector jobs. We don't need the recycling of tax payers monies. Most major manufacturers do not wish to move operations over seas. They operate at a disadvantage
here because of regulations and laws in the US that are more stringent then in most foreign competitor's country's. Wrong or right we don't play on an even field.
Let us all let our Government get bigger so we can go broke faster! The are some essential govt. employers don't get me wrong. But most we can do without.
We desperately need private sector jobs that make the country run (remember they are the only ones that pay taxes with private money) Not larger Govt. spending and paying Govt. employee's with private sector money and recycling that money to pay taxes. The private sector in the US is where all the Government's monies come from.
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We bid for Boeing work and the buyer told us up front we would be bidding against manufacturers from around the world, including China.
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First of all you can't blame American manufacturers for moving out of country. American manufacturers pay the highest tax at 39%. So yes....to make a profit is essential.
American corporations, with the exception of true small businesses, pay nowhere near 39% in taxes. I think that in 2008 (or somewhere within a few years +/or - thereof) a large number of very large, very profitable corporations got cash incentives from the government. (I am saying this poorly, but not only did they not pay any taxes for very profitable business, they actually had the Government hand them a "Thank-You for Being You" check . (And this sort of stuff happens every year).
For me David Cay Johnston has done a good job of documenting these sort of issues.
http://www.amazon.com/David-Cay-Johnston/e/B001KDG3PW/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1?qid=1440095781&sr=1-1
My wife, however, does not encourage me to read his books anymore. She got the following book for me one Xmas:
http://www.amazon.com/Perfectly-Legal-Campaign-Rich---verybody/dp/1591840694/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8
Anyway, after I started reading it I would jump out of my chair about every 5 or 10 minutes swearing my head off and yelling "Why the H*** aren't these A**H*** in jail".
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But rather union workers.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Investigation-2013-Dreamliner-fire-caused-by-crossed-wires-322282171.html
http://www.seattletimes.com/business/787-assembly-problems-in-charleston-drag-on-everett/ (http://www.seattletimes.com/business/787-assembly-problems-in-charleston-drag-on-everett/)
(http://i1261.photobucket.com/albums/ii583/bjacks7/MISC/787dreamliner_zpsd7tefcgm.jpg)
Maybe a little research into what was the line number of each plane in question and at what facilty was the section manufactured at, were the wires for the emergency locator beacon installed on final assy or during production of that section before shipping to final assy, same for wires under battery compartment.
South Carolina facility in nonunion and yes they do quite a bit of work there, having worked in aviation my entire adult life in both union and nonunion shops I see the postives and weaknesses of both, I can tell you experience/ knowledge is lacking on the nonunion side and must be accounted for with additional inspectors and quality assurance types.
Maybe machines will do away with all the manufacturing and engineering someday and we all can just play AH 15 all day long.
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http://www.seattletimes.com/business/787-assembly-problems-in-charleston-drag-on-everett/ (http://www.seattletimes.com/business/787-assembly-problems-in-charleston-drag-on-everett/)
(http://i1261.photobucket.com/albums/ii583/bjacks7/MISC/787dreamliner_zpsd7tefcgm.jpg)
Maybe a little research into what was the line number of each plane in question and at what facilty was the section manufactured at, were the wires for the emergency locator beacon installed on final assy or during production of that section before shipping to final assy, same for wires under battery compartment.
South Carolina facility in nonunion and yes they do quite a bit of work there, having worked in aviation my entire adult life in both union and nonunion shops I see the postives and weaknesses of both, I can tell you experience/ knowledge is lacking on the nonunion side and must be accounted for with additional inspectors and quality assurance types.
Maybe machines will do away with all the manufacturing and engineering someday and we all can just play AH 15 all day long.
Really interesting chart and article.
To expand upon your point about union and nonunion shops, even within a union there can be great differences between locals.
I read an interesting book with a well argued critique of modern US unions written by a union insider. Even though she is telling the story of nurses in Nevada, she does so in the context of the problems and mistakes of US unions.
http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Expectations-Hell-Fighting-Movement-ebook/dp/B007HXKY22/ref=dp_kinw_strp_1
Good read.
Using a broad brush that says "Oh, it's the unions" is lazy thinking. As your cited article makes clear, unless you know what is happening on the factory floor, you are not going to have a clue as to what is going on.
With inspectors signing off on work that was never done, I am not sure I want to ever get on a 787 - battery issues or not.
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Sounds to me like Boeing QC dropped the ball.
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Sounds to me like Boeing QC dropped the ball.
Yep. They tend to be the highest paid union workers at Boeing.
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Yep. They tend to be the highest paid union workers at Boeing.
Ripsnort, just to be clear; It was nonunion inspectors in Charleston who signed off on work that was not done and union inspectors at the Boeing Everett Factory, in Everett, Washington who discovered the problem.
My guess is, and I base this on other cases, that the union workers in Everett know that their union will protect them from management while the nonunion workers in a right to work state have no such protections.
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Ripsnort, just to be clear; It was nonunion inspectors in Charleston who signed off on work that was not done and union inspectors at the Boeing Everett Factory, in Everett, Washington who discovered the problem.
My guess is, and I base this on other cases, that the union workers in Everett know that their union will protect them from management while the nonunion workers in a right to work state have no such protections.
That is incorrect. Those first 75 line numbers were all made in the Pacific Northwest. Charleston facility was still being built. I know this for a fact, as I'm on the 787 program supporting ME's.
Now, come back with the line numbers of the troubled aircraft and we'll have a reasonable discussion that has facts and data.
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Yep. They tend to be the highest paid union workers at Boeing.
Sounds like we got a died in the wool union hater, huh?
Like ALPA too? (the Airline Pilots Association) Oh ya, I forgot - it was airline managements that have pushed so hard for air safety these past 70 odd years :bhead
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Sounds to me like Boeing QC dropped the ball.
Yep.
I think we're done here.
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Sounds like we got a died in the wool union hater, huh?
Like ALPA too? (the Airline Pilots Association) Oh ya, I forgot - it was airline managements that have pushed so hard for air safety these past 70 odd years :bhead
IAM hater, yes. If you know knew how they not only cut our throats but their own in the past 30 years.
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I think we're done here.
Agree, this is going nowhere expect into a pit of sour feelings.
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Agree, this is going nowhere expect into a pit of sour feelings.
Ya, I agree. no one's point of view is going to change
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FYI, IAM is International Aerospace Workers.
And you're right, I don't want to taint the thread anymore politically than I already have.
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FYI, IAM is International Aerospace Workers.
And you're right, I don't want to taint the thread anymore politically than I already have.
No slight to you intended but out of respect for my union brothers its actually IAMAW - International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers
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Looking at the diagram it is obvious to me that the "Engine nacelles" are the best parts! :old:
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No slight to you intended but out of respect for my union brothers its actually IAMAW - International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers
True, they merged with AW since 1964. We always shortened it to IAM.
Within 4 years of leaving the IAMAW union, I doubled my pay from day 1 to year 14, to year 18 at Boeing... Salary is "Pay for Performance". And at Boeing, that bar is held relatively low....
They retard what you're really capable of making. Just saying. Don't be a sheep. Be a leader and control your own destination. I do not intend that to be directed at you personally, I'm just saying...I was held back due to the union protocols and seniority. Don't even get me started on unfair treatment of their own brothers....that's something you and I can share over beers some day. You'll be astounded....Mind you, I hired in 1979 and was union until 1999. I saw what the union did to a lot of brothers, and was mindful where our union dues went, which was primarily lining their own pockets as well as the politicians they told us we should support. :mad:
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Sounds to me like Boeing QC dropped the ball.
Actually, no, it wasn't and isn't the Boeing line inspectors who dropped the ball; it was, and still is the change in Boeing Management Philosophy that caused the ball to be dropped. After the merger with McDonnell Douglas, the Boeing Company changed from a Company that cared about it's Customers and Employees, to a Company that only cared about it's profits and was/is determined to break the IAM Union. How do I know? I've lived through it, just like Ripsnort; but the two of us have differing views, and different experiences, it seems, over the same period of time.
Now what Ripsnort didn't tell you is that those first line numbers were not all from Everett, and that most of the line numbers needing rework were from South Carolina and had to be completely reworked by IAM workers at the Everett facility. Oh! And you should know that the Everett facility only assembles the parts they are sent from South Carolina, it does not produce them. So it seems that the QC issues really reside in South Carolina, with non-union workers, but have to be resolved and reworked in Everett, Washington, with IAM workers, or is it really a Corporate issue where the current Management philosophy is that Managers don't have to know the jobs, only manage people?
This response is not a slam at Ripsnort, but merely a rebuttal to his post.
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You make good points about the rework being done in Everett. This due to an inexperienced workforce at BSC.
You also make excellent points about Boeing management, I've watched that transition you speak of happen (I've been there since 1979).
We'll have to agree to disagree on the unions though. The 1989 and 1995 strikes did nothing for the union workers, as a matter of fact, they essentially settled for the very same contract 69 days later in the 1995 strike.
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Hey, Ripsnort,
I think we are closer in agreement than you think. The very reason I retired when I did was because of the new Boeing Management philosophy and the age split the Boeing Company created within the Union between us old guys, and the new guys, and the way the Boeing Company has played the split to their advantage. The Boeing Company from which I retired is not the same Boeing Company into which I hired.
As for politics and voting what the IAM recommended how I should vote, well...I mostly, but not always, voted opposite the Union recommendations for 33 years. I often butted heads with my Union Stewards and Union Reps regarding Union and Political issues, but I always supported the Union majority vote even though I might personally have disagreed with it.
The 787 is a good aircraft, and with the exception of the battery issues, it has proven itself to be a somewhat competitive aircraft in today's market. The real issue with the 787 is that it has financially nearly sunk the Boeing Company due to it's 787 management policies (from the start of the program) and it will take 1000 + sales of this aircraft to simply break even, financially. The worst issue of the 787 Program is that the 787 Management Philosophy has permeated the other programs within the Company and encourages the "yes man" philosophy that discourages opposing views and leads to poor quality control.
Soapbox? What Soapbox? Oh! That one! LOL! I'll step down now! Sorry, Folks!
<S> Rip!
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By the way, just confirmed lines 1-169 were all made in Everett. Some line number after that (Made in BSC) had traveled work items that had to be completed up here after Final Assembly so in essence the quality wasn't 'fixed' by Everett aerospace workers but rather "completed" because at the time BSC was not ready for prime time.
I was told this in a meeting yesterday by a ME who works on the shop floor.
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But rather union workers.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Investigation-2013-Dreamliner-fire-caused-by-crossed-wires-322282171.html
:airplane: In the case you have a link to, I guess it was crossed wires which caused the fire! But, there have been other fires, which were caused by the batteries! You have to remember that when they are designing an aircraft, the more weight they can save in building the a/c, the more fare paying passengers and freight they can carry. The lithium batteries are a wonderful pc of equipment, as it is small, relative speaking and light and allows for more "pay load" on the aircraft!
In the case of the 787, I think the batteries are much to small and light for the amount of amps they have to carry and hence, I think you have over heated batteries, which result in fires. I think if you check, if I recall correctly, when the whole fleet of 787's were grounded, batteries which were used in the 767 were installed in the 787's to get the fleet back in the air!
I could be wrong, but that was what I was told by someone who flies for a major airline.
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:airplane: In the case you have a link to, I guess it was crossed wires which caused the fire! But, there have been other fires, which were caused by the batteries! You have to remember that when they are designing an aircraft, the more weight they can save in building the a/c, the more fare paying passengers and freight they can carry. The lithium batteries are a wonderful pc of equipment, as it is small, relative speaking and light and allows for more "pay load" on the aircraft!
In the case of the 787, I think the batteries are much to small and light for the amount of amps they have to carry and hence, I think you have over heated batteries, which result in fires. I think if you check, if I recall correctly, when the whole fleet of 787's were grounded, batteries which were used in the 767 were installed in the 787's to get the fleet back in the air!
I could be wrong, but that was what I was told by someone who flies for a major airline.
Yes, many threads about that here on this OT forum discussing that. This thread was a follow up to all the others.
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Only an American would think that a corporation pays taxes to begin. But there is still a rub. Corporations exist to make a profit. Taxation is a cost. It gets passed on. As hajo notes -this becomes a competitiveness issue since structural costs matter.
Sys error makes a reasonable point, but corporate subs are far from uniform across sectors and only serve to offset very selectively. In any case, it would be radically easier to restructure and simplify the subs and reduce the rates, but, of course, this defeats the purpose. After all, every applicable subsidy had its origin in lobbying and selection, and the federal machine loves redistribution because it gets house rake on every dollar routed.
I won't speak for FoMoCo. I will say that ( from my perspective) it appears to make its decisions comprehensively of all available credible info. The last decade of restructuring of the UAW deals speaks for itself.
As for the U.S., if you really think it's doing well in the global competition to attract capital, you must be living under a mushroom. No production will ultimately equal no wealth, and I say that recognizing that the most valuable production is intellectual ( although export of smokestack capital bears genuine geopolitical risk -history being any guide).
In any case, I've got my own pretty thing covered, which is all any of us can do.
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By the way, just confirmed lines 1-169 were all made in Everett. Some line number after that (Made in BSC) had traveled work items that had to be completed up here after Final Assembly so in essence the quality wasn't 'fixed' by Everett aerospace workers but rather "completed" because at the time BSC was not ready for prime time.
I was told this in a meeting yesterday by a ME who works on the shop floor.
Well, shucks! I think we have to agree that Everett assembled and reworked what was sent to its factories because Everett did not produce (make) any (and if it did, very little) of the 787. The Everett plant is an assembly plant for the 787, with the parts from around the world being shipped there for assembly, and if your line numbers are correct, then, yes, Everett had to rework all of those line numbers from all of the other manufacturers.
Your terms, "fixed", and "completed", when referenced to "quality", really don't mean the same thing. If the parts arriving in Everett to be assembled were "completed with quality", then Everett would not have had to "fix" them, but rather, simply "assemble" them, and this was not the case. Everett had to rework (fix) the parts to quality standards before they would fit together and make an airplane. How do I know? Like you, Ripsnort, I had many friends and co-workers with whom I had worked for decades on the 747, 767, 777, programs who were drafted to the 787 program (Engineers and Aircraft Mechanics, and Jig Builders) who all stated how sad they were to be on the 787 Program.
Don't misunderstand me; I think the 787 is a good aircraft, and like any new aircraft program it has teething problems. But the 787's teething problems began at it's beginning with poor management and because of poor management, quality control suffered, and that has haunted the program ever since. And, when these flaws are coupled with the new Boeing Management System, the flaws are not likely to be identified and solved as quickly as they were prior to the merger of Boeing and McDonnell-Douglas.
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So after reading this thread and going to fly, do not fly on a Boeing 787?
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So after reading this thread and going to fly, do not fly on a Boeing 787?
Take what you want from this, but from someone who lived in the industry for 36+ years;
They're all junk these days! Their respective MEL's are as thick as a phone directory and hence they dispatch with reasonable regularity. :bhead