General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: earl1937 on October 06, 2015, 02:02:34 PM
Title: Co-pilot Position
Post by: earl1937 on October 06, 2015, 02:02:34 PM
:airplane: I am going to get some grief over this suggestion, but here goes anyway! We have now, at our pleasure, to press any one of several keys and move into a gun position in the bombers which are in AH. We don't have key #9 dictated to any function right now, so why not assign #9 to copilots position in the bombers? If the a/c has a pilot wound, there is no reason why the aircraft could not be flown back to base by the co-pilot, but at present, we can't get into the co-pilots position in the aircraft! Surely, since we can move into other positions in the aircraft for "gun" duties, why not have a key by which you can assume the co-pilots position? I know that brings up a host of questions, number one, when and if the a/c dies, does the attacking aircraft get a kill? I say no, because he did not bring down the aircraft! At any rate, I think it is a good idea, now if HT does, maybe in the new AH3, maybe we will have that option!
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: colmbo on October 06, 2015, 03:50:54 PM
Not a bad idea. I'd like that option just for the view from the right side…real life you can ask to right seater what he sees….here you're just blind to that side.
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: hitech on October 06, 2015, 04:00:41 PM
I don't dislike the idea.
HiTech
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: guncrasher on October 06, 2015, 05:16:01 PM
awesome.
semp
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: earl1937 on October 07, 2015, 03:23:39 AM
Switching seats for the view makes sense. How to score the first pilot death is the dilemma.
Tanks had more than one crew member too. :D
I wonder if you put another guy in the other front seat to be shot, how many of them would survive a cockpit pass. I'm guessing it likely wouldn't be that many, if you hit the cockpit you're apt to get both of them a lot of the time.
With tanks, I think the way to implement it would be switching positions would take a few seconds, for say the gunner to move into the driver's seat and back to the gun.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: FLS on October 09, 2015, 11:01:36 AM
I wonder if you put another guy in the other front seat to be shot, how many of them would survive a cockpit pass. I'm guessing it likely wouldn't be that many, if you hit the cockpit you're apt to get both of them a lot of the time.
You could still have cases where only one pilot is hit or both are only wounded. You'd also have the possibility of the co-pilot getting hit, not the player. Like losing a gun position, you might only lose the option of switching seats. I'm guessing the main effect would be a slightly harder pilot kill on bombers.
Killing a player twice in the cockpit isn't that different from killing the same player in the gun positions and cockpit.
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: Wiley on October 09, 2015, 11:20:35 AM
You could still have cases where only one pilot is hit or both are only wounded. You'd also have the possibility of the co-pilot getting hit, not the player. Like losing a gun position, you might only lose the option of switching seats. I'm guessing the main effect would be a slightly harder pilot kill on bombers.
Killing a player twice in the cockpit isn't that different from killing the same player in the gun positions and cockpit.
It would help with lucky golden BBs, but good passes likely wouldn't be affected by it much. I'm all for capabilities that are real. I think it would also be nice if there was the ability for gunners to be switched assuming it was possible for them to move and the gun was undamaged.
Again, some kind of timeout for the gunner to switch positions, and have the autofiring bomber guns not working if the seat was empty.
I think the copilot addition would be a good idea.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: FLS on October 09, 2015, 11:27:42 AM
How would modeling an unmanned aircraft be a good idea? If the guns don't work with an empty seat you'd need 30 people for a 3 buff formation instead of 1.
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: Wiley on October 09, 2015, 11:59:13 AM
How would modeling an unmanned aircraft be a good idea? If the guns don't work with an empty seat you'd need 30 people for a 3 buff formation instead of 1.
Nononono.
Some guy flies his B17s, they work as they do now. If his tailgunner catches a bullet to the head but the gun's still fine, he can move one of his waist gunners or his top gunner back to man the position. It takes the guy a few seconds to get back there when he moves him, then the waist gun that was vacated no longer works because there's no longer a guy at it, unless a gunner is moved to that position.
If the tailgun itself is damaged, the guys can't move into that position.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: FLS on October 09, 2015, 12:45:52 PM
The damage model doesn't allow gunner kills, just gun kills. That would be another wish.
How about taking the current pilot damage and assigning half of it to the co-pilot?
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: hitech on October 09, 2015, 03:05:09 PM
The damage model doesn't allow gunner kills, just gun kills. That would be another wish.
How about taking the current pilot damage and assigning half of it to the co-pilot?
Not quite that simple.
The concept of a copilot would have to be added to the system. That includes defining view points in aircraft, defining flight model configurations saying a model has a copilot. Changing damage system to include a copilot. Going threw every model and checking the damage settings on the new copilot position. Going into modeling and changing what happens when a pilot is killed. Changing shapes to include polygons that represent the copilot so he can be hit. And sure a few others that always pop up once I start making an addition like this.
HiTech
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: FLS on October 09, 2015, 03:17:51 PM
The concept of a copilot would have to be added to the system. That includes defining view points in aircraft, defining flight model configurations saying a model has a copilot. Changing damage system to include a copilot. Going threw every model and checking the damage settings on the new copilot position. Going into modeling and changing what happens when a pilot is killed. Changing shapes to include polygons that represent the copilot so he can be hit. And sure a few others that always pop up once I start making an addition like this.
HiTech
I got all that from the previous copilot wish some years back. Sorry I wasn't clear, I was just considering the score issue. Once all the not so simple stuff is done, assign half the current pilot damage to each pilot so that killing both equals one kill vs killing both equaling 2 kills.
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: Chilli on October 09, 2015, 03:38:16 PM
I wasn't aware there was any scoring of pilot kills, only plane kills :uhoh Although, a kill shot to the pilot has meant instant death. In this proposed addition, instant deaths will only occur after both pilots were incapacitated.
I like the idea, especially if I may move the controls from a wounded pilot to a very conscious copilot to avoid the blackouts during critical maneuvering such as landing or bombing.
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: hitech on October 09, 2015, 03:38:38 PM
I got all that from the previous copilot wish some years back. Sorry I wasn't clear, I was just considering the score issue. Once all the not so simple stuff is done, assign half the current pilot damage to each pilot so that killing both equals one kill vs killing both equaling 2 kills.
Ahh now I understand, but you we don't score people kills, we score aircraft/vehicle kills.
HiTech
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: FLS on October 09, 2015, 03:41:09 PM
Ahh now I understand, but you we don't score people kills, we score aircraft/vehicle kills.
HiTech
But we score pilot deaths.
Say you lose the pilot and one wing, the copilot bails. Is that then scored as a death and a bail? Simpler to score it as a bail. Bandit still gets one kill for the aircraft.
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: hitech on October 09, 2015, 04:09:09 PM
But we score pilot deaths. Simpler to score it as a bail. Bandit still gets one kill for the aircraft.
This is how it would work.
HiTech
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: bustr on October 09, 2015, 05:19:23 PM
In the alpha Euro2015 big bomber mission. Everything I shot down or watched shot down always had the pilot hit the chute while a kill was awarded. Even if I obviously HO'd both pilots with 30mm, an AI pilot still hit the chute.
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: kvuo75 on October 09, 2015, 07:59:01 PM
before the c47 was remodeled you could slide your view all the way over to the copilots seat with cursor keys. :cheers:
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: FLS on October 09, 2015, 10:50:07 PM
If I understand the game logic, planes and vehicles are a kill for the bandit, and the loss for the player is categorized as a death, bail, capture, or ditch.
So why, when you land wounded on your runway and die before you exit, as Traveler posted not too long ago, and your aircraft is intact, why is that counted as a death when the aircraft wasn't killed? It seems to be a people kill.
And yes I think "exception" is a reasonable answer. :D
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: dirtdart on October 10, 2015, 08:30:55 AM
I could be wrong but I remember tanks having individual crew members. Or weapon systems... can't recall. I just remember the driver being killed and still being able to slew the turret. Or... could have old man stuff going on, one or the other.
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: hitech on October 10, 2015, 02:24:08 PM
So why, when you land wounded on your runway and die before you exit, as Traveler posted not too long ago, and your aircraft is intact, why is that counted as a death when the aircraft wasn't killed? It seems to be a people kill.
The pilot died because the plane blew up, he just never new about it.
HiTech
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: FLS on October 10, 2015, 02:36:03 PM
:airplane: Not sure if it would be practical or not, because I don't understand the "coding" that would be involved, but what if, since someone can join as a gunner, why not let that extra player be able to enter the cockpit as a pilot, should the a/c commander be killed! That might be the easiest way to add a co-pilot! But either way it is accomplished would be great, as I think we are missing a great addition to the game because all of the bombers we have in AH had a co-pilot, except three! Wonder how many people know which three aircraft that was? I am referring to multi-engine bombers, not the TBM!
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: BuckShot on October 17, 2015, 08:15:48 AM
Havoc, Boston, 234?
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: guncrasher on October 17, 2015, 01:21:21 PM
:airplane: Not sure if it would be practical or not, because I don't understand the "coding" that would be involved, but what if, since someone can join as a gunner, why not let that extra player be able to enter the cockpit as a pilot, should the a/c commander be killed! That might be the easiest way to add a co-pilot! But either way it is accomplished would be great, as I think we are missing a great addition to the game because all of the bombers we have in AH had a co-pilot, except three! Wonder how many people know which three aircraft that was? I am referring to multi-engine bombers, not the TBM!
normally gunners were not pilots.
semp
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: earl1937 on October 17, 2015, 01:56:49 PM
:airplane: From what I was told by some of the old heads when I was in, the Navigator, bombardier and radio operator were all pilots to some degree, most of whom had washed out of flight school for one reason or the other. I knew of one person, W.L. Swanson, from my home town, received the silver star for landing his B-17 because the two pilots were wounded and could not fly the aircraft and the navigator and bombardier were killed, all by a head on attack from a FW-190.
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: 49Dallas on October 17, 2015, 09:16:21 PM
:airplane: From what I was told by some of the old heads when I was in, the Navigator, bombardier and radio operator were all pilots to some degree, most of whom had washed out of flight school for one reason or the other. I knew of one person, W.L. Swanson, from my home town, received the silver star for landing his B-17 because the two pilots were wounded and could not fly the aircraft and the navigator and bombardier were killed, all by a head on attack from a FW-190.
Wow! Is his account written anywhere? Book, online, ect?
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: bustr on October 19, 2015, 01:55:41 PM
:airplane: From what I was told by some of the old heads when I was in, the Navigator, bombardier and radio operator were all pilots to some degree, most of whom had washed out of flight school for one reason or the other. I knew of one person, W.L. Swanson, from my home town, received the silver star for landing his B-17 because the two pilots were wounded and could not fly the aircraft and the navigator and bombardier were killed, all by a head on attack from a FW-190.
By far the largest killer of flight crews was the bomber being straffed. You didn't need to kill the engines or try to blow the bomber to pieces which took a lot of rounds. Just kill the crew. Bomber's had very little armor for crew members and the 20mm ammo fired by MG151\20 had many variations on the AP and HE theme. Micro shrapnel was the biggest killer of crew. The nose compartment and flight deck were small contained spaces which amplified the effect of a 20mm.
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: Arlo on October 26, 2015, 02:56:46 PM
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: earl1937 on October 27, 2015, 07:34:09 AM
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: Arlo on October 27, 2015, 12:49:06 PM
May? Dunno. It's a scene from "Heavy Metal". Saw it in the theater, shortly before shipping out. Some don't realize how many characters were voiced by SCTV greats such as Candy, Levy and Flaherty.
Hiyas, Earl! :) :salute
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: Wiley on October 27, 2015, 01:11:02 PM
May? Dunno. It's a scene from "Heavy Metal". Saw it in the theater, shortly before shipping out. Some don't realize how many characters were voiced by SCTV greats such as Candy, Levy and Flaherty.
Hiyas, Earl! :) :salute
Still can't fly a B17 without hearing that song in my head.
Favorite scene is still, "You gotta just realize your perspective's messed up, and let your hands work the controls like you're straight." That line has saved me many a time RTBing while drunk in this game. :)
All for people being able to move around/copilots/whatever. I still don't think it would happen that often that the copilot would survive a cockpit strafing.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Co-pilot Position
Post by: Arlo on October 27, 2015, 01:20:09 PM