General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: DaveBB on December 03, 2015, 05:03:19 PM
Title: One second after
Post by: DaveBB on December 03, 2015, 05:03:19 PM
Currently reading (rather listening I should say) to a book called "One second after". Three nuclear warheads explode over the U.S. about 200 miles high. Electro magnetic pulse destroys all the electronics in the U.S. with the exception of vintage tube type equipment. It is a fascinating and realistic book. Newt Gingrich wrote the forward and suggested that every American read it.
So with an EMP burst, all communications, transportation, manufacturing, and medical facilities shut down. Nothing I have is hardened. My family has some old tube type ham radios. I keep my ham license, but I barely remember morse code. It would definitely be a struggle to survive. Clean water and medicine would be the most difficult things to obtain. Something that the book doesn't touch on but makes ecological sense is eating fish and insects as the main food staple. The lower on the food chain, the more abundant organisms are.
Has anyone else read this book?
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: 100Coogn on December 03, 2015, 05:13:13 PM
But wouldn't the fish be contaminated by the water that we cannot drink?
Coogan
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: NatCigg on December 03, 2015, 05:17:28 PM
Currently reading (rather listening I should say) to a book called "One second after". Three nuclear warheads explode over the U.S. about 200 miles high. Electro magnetic pulse destroys all the electronics in the U.S. with the exception of vintage tube type equipment. It is a fascinating and realistic book. Newt Gingrich wrote the forward and suggested that every American read it.
So with an EMP burst, all communications, transportation, manufacturing, and medical facilities shut down. Nothing I have is hardened. My family has some old tube type ham radios. I keep my ham license, but I barely remember morse code. It would definitely be a struggle to survive. Clean water and medicine would be the most difficult things to obtain. Something that the book doesn't touch on but makes ecological sense is eating fish and insects as the main food staple. The lower on the food chain, the more abundant organisms are.
Has anyone else read this book?
not me but getting kicked off the technological pedestal is a scary thought and simply not far away. i look at it like global warming, everybody will go through the same problem so not much to do or worry about. ps it doesn't hurt to know where a artesian well and lots of like minded people with guns are at. :old: :bolt:
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: DaveBB on December 03, 2015, 05:18:23 PM
EMPs created by detonating nuclear warheads most certainly do release radioactive fallout.
He means by nukes used specifically for maximally creating EMP. For an entire continent, that requires only a few nukes detonated above the atmosphere, from which the fallout would be insignificant.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Nathan60 on December 03, 2015, 05:38:02 PM
Here ya go
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Vulcan on December 03, 2015, 06:02:30 PM
Hollywood science.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: ghi on December 03, 2015, 06:12:58 PM
Without electricity all of this could meltdown ; Do they have back up power protected vs EMP and keep all this reactors cool ? :headscratch:
I read this article yesterday in Dailymail, scary stuff;
The 'doomsday' weapon that could wipe out 90% of Americans: Eccentric tech millionaire and presidential candidate John McAfee says country is 'ill prepared' for electromagnetic attacks"
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Brooke on December 03, 2015, 06:39:41 PM
I read the book.
Here's why. I had heard about EMP doom for a while and assumed it was a bunch of overreaction and fear mongering by people on the fringe. Yeah, nukes give off EMP, but I assumed that a nuke's EMP would take out maybe a metropolitan-area worth of electrical stuff. So, taking out the nation's electrical infrastructure would take, in effect, a full-on nuclear war. I assumed this without any particular knowledge of it but just because if it took only 1-3 nukes on nothing more than 1950-era rockets, then it would be so easy to destroy the entire US and its population. That would be like learning that it actually is so easy to steal all the gold in Fort Knox that a single 12 year old could do it in half an hour and no special tools.
However, I heard enough about it that I decided I would take a little time to look into it. With a BS in nuclear engineering from the University of Michigan and an MS in applied physics from Caltech, I figured I'd be able to judge if it seems like hokum or not.
What I found out is that -- holy !@#$ -- it really would take only a few nukes to wipe out the US, as backed up by mathematical modeling and also actual historical measurements from nuclear tests and controlled testing. One moderately sized nuke, detonated at very high altitude, can take out electrical equipment in a radius of about 500 miles (i.e., diameter of 1000 miles, i.e., a few of them cover the continental US). What electrical equipment would be burned out? Not just powerlines and transformers and data lines, but even smaller electrical equipment, and a lot of cars, trucks, trains, ships, and aircraft.
Now, think about what that means. You in your house are not going to get electrical power, of course, but also not municipal running water, natural gas, or sewer treatment. Without vehicles, you aren't going to get any food at the supermarket or pick up of your garbage. Most of the people in the US don't store water, so in some areas, lots of people would start to die when the 50 gallons in their hot-water tanks runs out. Most of the people in the US don't store food, so lots of people would start to die within a month or two because supermarkets have only about 3 days worth of food, and no more is coming if vehicles don't work. This is to say nothing of people who might freeze to death if it were winter, what it would be like in cities and even suburbs without sewage disposal, and what things would get like in terms of "civil disturbance."
But wouldn't the US be able to get vehicles going and power back on in a month or two? No. The power grid has critical elements that we don't keep backups of and that, once destroyed, take months or a year to replace (even when all of our factories and electricity and distribution of building materials work). That's not even to consider what a gargantuan job it would be to repair things we do have at least some spares of (like electrical wiring).
All that would be required is a few nukes launched from container ships way out to sea in the Atlantic, Pacific, and Gulf, which (among others) North Korea could accomplish and soon (thanks to our own policy) Iran will be able to accomplish. A sophisticated country like China or Russia could probably accomplish it without leaving enough evidence for anyone to know which country did it. In the not-too-distant future, some terrorist organizations might be able to do it. It doesn't take fancy nukes on fancy rockets. They just have to get up into the atmosphere and be accurate to within a US state or two.
The only bright spot compared to the scenario depicted in "One Second After" is that cars and trucks are somewhat resistant to EMP. So, not all of them (even modern ones) would be wiped out within the 500-mile radius. It's not clear how many would work, but even just some of them would allow some movement of food and water, perhaps saving a lot of people.
What are the odds of this happening? Who knows? It might be miniscule. But, if it happened before the US wakes up and spends the trivial amount of money to have a little preparation for it (maybe it would cost as much as a single B-1 bomber to do this), a large portion of the US population would die.
Also, a giant solar flare (like the one that hit the earth in 1859 and the one that just barely missed the earth in 2012) would wipe out the earth's power grid, but at least vehicles should all mostly still work. That is still a huge problem, of course, for the reasons stated above.
It was for these reasons that I decided (after not preparing ever before) to have a supply of water, a food, and some other items for my family.
For anyone interested in doing that as cheaply and easily as possible, my experience with that is here:
For anyone who wants a good report on EMP and what it could do (at a solid technical level), it is here:
http://empcommission.org/
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: icepac on December 03, 2015, 06:44:40 PM
GHI beat me to it.
There is no place to hide on the earth if even just a few nuke plants lose the ability to cool spent fuel and reactors whether in "cold shutdown" or having been recently scram'd.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Brooke on December 03, 2015, 06:49:07 PM
That would indeed be bad, but it wouldn't kill everyone everywhere. It wouldn't even kill everyone in the red circles.
I wouldn't suggest, because of that, it's just hopeless and not worth doing anything at all.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: USRanger on December 03, 2015, 07:06:09 PM
Ted Koppel recently came out with a book called "Lights Out: A Cyberattack, a Nation Unprepared, Surviving the Aftermath". It talks about how easily the power grid can be destroyed and what will happen to the U.S. if it were to happen.
A scary fact learned from the book: The U.S. only has three main power grids. The Eastern half, the Western half & Texas (has its own). If one of these were to go down, 1/2 of the country is without power for 1-2 years, causing an estimated 90% human die-off in the first year. Scary stuff. I can't believe we haven't built back ups for these critical systems, but we haven't. :frown:
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Brooke on December 03, 2015, 07:12:33 PM
If one of these were to go down, 1/2 of the country is without power for 1-2 years, causing an estimated 90% human die-off in the first year. Scary stuff. I can't believe we haven't built back ups for these critical systems, but we haven't. :frown:
Amen to that.
Let's hope the US decides asap to spend a trivial amount of money to protect against such things.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: USRanger on December 03, 2015, 07:17:16 PM
It is absolutely frightening how easy it would be to destroy our power grid. I really believe it will happen. Just a matter of time. Russia, China, or some other world power won't do it to us because it will spell doom for their economy if we disappeared, but I think N. Korea or some other bad actor would have no problem doing it to us.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Ripsnort on December 03, 2015, 08:06:27 PM
Great book, read it many years ago.
I went from a couple weeks of food for emergency to 3 months of food for a family of 4 "eating well" (or 8 months on rations), ammo, water treatment tablets, water barrels on the rain gutters, a full surgical kit, (Married a nurse, close enough) 2 months of fuel for generator and meds that last 2 months. much more I'm missing... :bolt:
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: FLS on December 03, 2015, 08:26:52 PM
Good book. A big solar flare would be sufficient.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: morfiend on December 04, 2015, 12:27:31 PM
Just move to Canada and build an igloo!
The snow will shield you from fallout and any EMP,we use cans and string to communicate and our mode of transport is dogsled so all you need is some local roadkill and you will have all the fuel you need for the dogs.
In our vast frozen wilderness,the bad guys will never find you!
Besides they have to get past the RCPBP,and that's all but impossible. Have you ever seen a polar bear in a snow storm?
The Royal Canuk Polar Bear Patrol,stands on guard for thee!
:salute
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Serenity on December 04, 2015, 01:38:59 PM
I read this article yesterday in Dailymail, scary stuff;
The 'doomsday' weapon that could wipe out 90% of Americans: Eccentric tech millionaire and presidential candidate John McAfee says country is 'ill prepared' for electromagnetic attacks"
Forgive me, it's been a few years since my class on nuclear reactors, and I don't know if civilian reactors are built in the same way as our Navy reactors, but my understanding is that they're built in such a way that they require power to keep the rods in such a position as to produce heat and power. In other words, as a fail safe, if power is lost, the system automatically shuts down, preventing an issue...
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: WaffenVW on December 04, 2015, 03:34:15 PM
Some reactor designs require cooling even when shut down. Like the Fukushima plant (a General Electric design) where three cores melted down. Even the pools of spent fuel rods need constant cooling as they're still hot, even if they're not hot enough for practical use.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyIBlygNlcc
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: WaffenVW on December 04, 2015, 04:18:00 PM
One point I'd like to make is that if a rogue nuclear power or terrorist organization takes out America with an EMP attack, it won't become the doomsday scenario we've read/watched on TV where 90% of the population is dead after a year. America doesn't exist in a bubble. The attackers would have to hit all continents, South America, Europe, Asia, Africa and Australia to make that happen. If only North America is attacked the rest of the world (with a few notable exceptions) would help rebuild the infrastructure and keep most of the people alive. And to prevent something similar from happening to them NATO and Russia and China would hunt down whomever did it and take other 'measures' to prevent it from happening again. Perhaps by making a mushroom cloud of their own here and there.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: NatCigg on December 04, 2015, 05:14:58 PM
One point I'd like to make is that if a rogue nuclear power or terrorist organization takes out America with an EMP attack, it won't become the doomsday scenario we've read/watched on TV where 90% of the population is dead after a year. America doesn't exist in a bubble. The attackers would have to hit all continents, South America, Europe, Asia, Africa and Australia to make that happen. If only North America is attacked the rest of the world (with a few notable exceptions) would help rebuild the infrastructure and keep most of the people alive. And to prevent something similar from happening to them NATO and Russia and China would hunt down whomever did it and take other 'measures' to prevent it from happening again. Perhaps by making a mushroom cloud of their own here and there.
:lol its not far fetched to think russia would love to throw a few nukes out there.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: WaffenVW on December 04, 2015, 05:32:40 PM
Or China or France. The French are the only people I know of who have actually officially stated that they will use nuclear weapons in response to a devastating terrorist attack.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Brooke on December 04, 2015, 05:35:06 PM
I don't think it would be possible to rebuild the infrastructure quickly. The problem with the electrical grid is that it requires various large special-built transformers (perhaps among a bunch of other problematic items) that do not have spares in the world and that currently take months to a year to build.
If all vehicles were knocked out, large shipments by sea of trucks would help a lot, as that's what would be needed to get food and water around. I'm not sure if it would be possible to get food and water to all 320 million people within a couple of months.
It wouldn't cost the US much to guard against it by building some back ups to critical parts and putting in some protective technology at critical points (including at nuclear reactor sites), so it would be very well worthwhile. It would be small compared to the gigantic amounts of money the US government wastes.
This could happen to any continent as easily as North America. An attacker can take out a large chunk of any continent with each nuke. In the book, the US, Russia, Japan, and South Korea are all taken out.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: NatCigg on December 04, 2015, 05:40:58 PM
I don't think it would be possible to rebuild the infrastructure quickly. The problem with the electrical grid is that it requires various large special-built transformers (perhaps among a bunch of other problematic items) that do not have spares in the world and that currently take months to a year to build.
If all vehicles were knocked out, large shipments by sea of trucks would help a lot, as that's what would be needed to get food and water around. I'm not sure if it would be possible to get food and water to all 320 million people within a couple of months.
It wouldn't cost the US much to guard against it by building some back ups to critical parts and putting in some protective technology at critical points (including at nuclear reactor sites), so it would be very well worthwhile. It would be small compared to the gigantic amounts of money the US government wastes.
This could happen to any continent as easily as North America. An attacker can take out a large chunk of any continent with each nuke. In the book, the US, Russia, Japan, and South Korea are all taken out.
you guys who prep. having some dried seeds would be a good thing to have on hand. a tip from a former biology student. "if not able to get meat you must mix a grass and legume to get the protein for human growth. grass would be wheat and corn, legume would be beans and peas" that is your psa for the day :salute
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Bodhi on December 04, 2015, 05:43:41 PM
WaffenVW, I don't believe you've taken the time to actually consider the size and complexity of the US Infrastructure. If (I don't believe it will happen) a coordinated EMP attack on the US were to occur, the every aspect of modern life that we know of is shut down. Within a week, 95% of most people will be out of food. When that happens, lawlessness and the associated chaos of joe six-pack trying to secure food for his 2.2 kids will add to the chaos of those that thrive on it. Law Enforcement will be overwhelmed and the inevitable call-in of the US Military will not be able to control the situation.
Even if the rest of the countries decided to start helping immediately, it would be months before any meaningful supply could happen. Logistics dictate that response time. In that time, a major portion of the population will die. Either to starvation or the inevitable violence, many millions will die. As this death occurs, disease will become rampant. That will only hamper efforts.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Bodhi on December 04, 2015, 05:47:36 PM
I forgot to add this. Sit and think about a coordinated EMP attack. Everything non-shielded is dead. Think of how you would move logistics around the country....? Not going to be done easily by road. They are clogged with dead vehicles. What about by rail? Not going to happen, hundreds of dead trains. Going to bring in hundreds of thousands of trucks? Awesome, how do you clear the roads? What about the airports? They are going to be clogged with dead aircraft and logistics.
It's simply not possible to move stuff around after an event of this magnitude.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Bodhi on December 04, 2015, 05:48:49 PM
Nattcig, The vast majority of the population would not live long enough to worry about growing anything in this scenario.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: WaffenVW on December 04, 2015, 05:52:32 PM
Yeah, that's the reason I said "most people", not "all people". Many would perish in the chaos. Perhaps we'd get to actually witness that scene from Jericho where Chinese transport planes were dropping food and water purifying kits with little notes on them saying "don't hurt each other".
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Bodhi on December 04, 2015, 05:57:52 PM
WaffenVW, Perhaps I misinterpreted where you suggested that the vast majority of the population would not die. In the situation described in the book, or similar, it is unlikely that more that 80% of the population would survive. Survival rate would be higher in the heartlands, almost non-existent in the urban and desert environments. My bet is that disease would kill greater than 50% of those that die, probably closer to 60%. Chaos and lawlessness, 10%. Starvation, the remainder.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: WaffenVW on December 04, 2015, 06:50:03 PM
80% seems like as good a number as any for pure speculation. People would likely be on their own for a week, but a major disaster relief effort would begin almost immediately. Most of the major population concentrations are accessible from the sea, so ships would be the primary means of delivering aid. Airports would be cleared of disabled aircraft within a day. One fixed farmer's tractor could do the job and with enough hands they could push the jets out of the way if necessary. And lets not forget the U.S. Navy. Each one of those super carriers is a nuclear power plant capable of powering a city. It would be an enormous international undertaking to save America, but I'm not as pessimistic as some doomsayers.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: WaffenVW on December 04, 2015, 06:55:55 PM
Just reading about the international response to hurricane Katrina is enough to make me a cautious optimist.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: WaffenVW on December 04, 2015, 07:19:52 PM
But in the event the world descends into chaos and nuclear war, and the survivors are forced to fight over the scraps of civilization. This will be my ride.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Bodhi on December 04, 2015, 11:00:06 PM
WaffenVW, Again, I don't mean to be rude, but I think you are vastly misunderstanding the logistics of trying to bring food, let alone medicines, sanitary products, and water to close to 400 million. While many live close to the coast, that still does not mean a week response. I am not 100% sure, but loading a ship can take days. Crossing the Atlantic (East Coast Only) takes more days. How do they unload when they get there? There's no power, no ability to move ships already tied up. How then, do you unload the ship? Ship borne crane? Ok, how do you transport the supplies.
Debating the semantics of percentages is kind of moot, but the reality is that an attack in this scenario would kill the vast majority of Americans in the ensuing months.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: mthrockmor on December 04, 2015, 11:35:23 PM
WaffenVW, Again, I don't mean to be rude, but I think you are vastly misunderstanding the logistics of trying to bring food, let alone medicines, sanitary products, and water to close to 400 million. While many live close to the coast, that still does not mean a week response. I am not 100% sure, but loading a ship can take days. Crossing the Atlantic (East Coast Only) takes more days. How do they unload when they get there? There's no power, no ability to move ships already tied up. How then, do you unload the ship? Ship borne crane? Ok, how do you transport the supplies.
Debating the semantics of percentages is kind of moot, but the reality is that an attack in this scenario would kill the vast majority of Americans in the ensuing months.
Within 3 days massive riots breakout in large cities. Within 2 weeks suburban America sees social breakdown, chaos follows. Militias form, battles fought, die offs begin. It gets ugly. What benefit would the Russians or Chinese have in doing such a thing? Jihadists, such as ISIS/L, God forbid they should ever get any weapons!!
boo
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: WaffenVW on December 04, 2015, 11:46:03 PM
In a port city people can carry the food and supplies. It's not like they have anything better to do. And the U.N. World Food Program is supplying food to 80 million people in 75 countries, so it'd not like there aren't people and organizations out there with experience in this sort of thing. A full years worth of food (survival rations) for 400 million people equals roughly 100 million tons. Bulk carriers can carry up to about half a million tons, so we're talking about a few hundred, perhaps a thousand ship loads over a years time. Say three per day, should not pose much of a logistical problem for the world's shipping companies.
Now that's the case if the rest of the world has to provide for the whole population, but the U.S. have her own emergency stores of grain and other supplies. Again people will have to distribute it with whatever means of transportation is available. Ox and cart if need be, but I think a lot of older/simpler vehicles (like pre-1980s) can be fixed pretty quick and put into service.
The biggest issue is whether the nation can pull together and maintain a civilized society until these issues are worked out. The National Guard will have plenty of work cut out for them.
But in the event the world descends into chaos and nuclear war, and the survivors are forced to fight over the scraps of civilization. This will be my ride.
WaffenVW, If (I don't believe it will happen) a coordinated EMP attack on the US were to occur, the every aspect of modern life that we know of is shut down.
From what I see in news over past weeks, could happen anytime; they are pushing vs Russia; You got sick evil monsters running your country over past 10-15 years, sinking your own economy in debt, slaughtering and displacing millions of poor people across the middle east, with wars and proxy wars, flooding Europe; what for? You live in the richest land on Earth, got everything can grow food from Maine to Washington state; What's this bloody crusade about?
Why are American people accepting what your government is doing? :furious :bhead
A person needs water, food, and -- depending on the environment -- shelter. For the 1 million people displaced by Katrina, it was the lack of some or all of those that lead to displacement to a location that had all three. But if you lack any one of these, you are just as surely in a condition of displacement since, if you don't get to a place that has all three, you will die.
If all electricity and vehicles are disabled in the US, within a short time, most people will lack water and food, and cities would have dangerous sanitation problems. If it is the middle of winter, people would freeze to death in some regions.
So, I think it would be 300 times worse than Katrina (or more than that, if you consider deaths, since about 1800 people died from Katrina in the US, and I suspect a lot more than 540,000 would die if the whole US received a thorough EMP attack).
Even if it weren't, though, even if it were only like a few Katrinas, that is still very bad and very much worth taking inexpensive precautions (inexpensive compared to national-scale boondoggles that the US wastes its money on).
(Also, I'm not considering the effect on nuclear power plants, as brought up above. Maybe they would be OK, maybe not -- I don't know.)
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Bodhi on December 05, 2015, 06:47:21 PM
Ghi, I am sorry, but take your politics and stick them in your arse.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Bodhi on December 05, 2015, 06:59:32 PM
WaffenVW, Again, I don't think you grasp the concept of total shut down of infrastructure. It means that nothing, zilch, nadda, is working. Add to it the clogged roads, railroads, and waterways, and you can't move anything.
You suggested using an ox cart... Where do you get the cart? What about the "ox"? How about trying to keep that "ox" alive while the people around are starving? What about the people that want the stuff on the cart for themselves and to further their abitions?
You also suggested a 100 millions tons of emergency rations being needed to support the population for a year.... Interesting figure, where'd you get it? If it is the case, where does the food come from? Who makes it? What's the lead time to get it? How do you transport it?
Again, I'm not trying to be rude, but you seem to think that feeding the population will be easy. You should read the reports from the EMP Commission. They are very eye opening.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Brooke on December 05, 2015, 07:41:48 PM
By the way, I suspect that the threat is the same for Europe, that Europe also would today be as vulnerable to EMP.
So, while the EMP commission's report is about the US, I think it would be a useful read and consideration for Europeans as well.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: WaffenVW on December 06, 2015, 12:57:27 AM
I guess Europe and other high tech societies are just as vulnerable as the U.S.
I've done some reading on the EMP threat since I found this scenario intriguing. The threat to transportation, it seems, is overstated. Most cars would survive the typical strength of a nuclear EMP (22-30 kv/m). Water infrastructure has already mostly been hardened against EMPs and can be run on backup generators if the power grid is disrupted.
You can download the reports here: http://www.empcommission.org/
Quote
The potential EMP vulnerability of automobiles derives from the use of built-in elec- tronics that support multiple automotive functions. Electronic components were first introduced into automobiles in the late 1960s. As time passed and electronics technolo- gies evolved, electronic applications in automobiles proliferated. Modern automobiles have as many as 100 microprocessors that control virtually all functions. While electronic applications have proliferated within automobiles, so too have application standards and electromagnetic interference and electromagnetic compatibility (EMI/EMC) practices. Thus, while it might be expected that increased EMP vulnerability would accompany the proliferated electronics applications, this trend, at least in part, is mitigated by the increased application of EMI/EMC practices. We tested a sample of 37 cars in an EMP simulation laboratory, with automobile vin- tages ranging from 1986 through 2002. Automobiles of these vintages include extensive electronics and represent a significant fraction of automobiles on the road today. The testing was conducted by exposing running and nonrunning automobiles to sequentially increasing EMP field intensities. If anomalous response (either temporary or permanent) was observed, the testing of that particular automobile was stopped. If no anomalous response was observed, the testing was continued up to the field intensity limits of the simulation capability (approximately 50 kV/m). Automobiles were subjected to EMP environments under both engine turned off and engine turned on conditions. No effects were subsequently observed in those automobiles that were not turned on during EMP exposure. The most serious effect observed on run- ning automobiles was that the motors in three cars stopped at field strengths of approxi- mately 30 kV/m or above. In an actual EMP exposure, these vehicles would glide to a stop and require the driver to restart them. Electronics in the dashboard of one automobile were damaged and required repair. Other effects were relatively minor. Twenty-five automobiles exhibited malfunctions that could be considered only a nuisance (e.g., blinking dashboard lights) and did not require driver intervention to correct. Eight of the 37 cars tested did not exhibit any anomalous response. Based on these test results, we expect few automobile effects at EMP field levels below 25 kV/m. Approximately 10 percent or more of the automobiles exposed to higher field levels may experience serious EMP effects, including engine stall, that require driver intervention to correct. We further expect that at least two out of three automobiles on the road will manifest some nuisance response at these higher field levels. The serious mal- functions could trigger car crashes on U.S. highways; the nuisance malfunctions could exacerbate this condition. The ultimate result of automobile EMP exposure could be trig- gered crashes that damage many more vehicles than are damaged by the EMP, the conse- quent loss of life, and multiple injuries.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: WaffenVW on December 06, 2015, 01:11:12 AM
Don't get me wrong. It would still be the worst disaster ever, but at least we can play road warrior with AC and power steering!
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Brooke on December 06, 2015, 02:19:07 AM
The part about the vehicles was the only part that made me thankful.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: WaffenVW on December 06, 2015, 06:16:34 AM
Well, that also means that diesel generators will be fine. Thus nuke plants will have cooling, hospitals will have power, farmers will have tractors and combines, there will be food in the store, police cars and fire trucks work, the national guard will be motorized rather than marching on foot, trains and ships and cranes will be working... Internal combustion engines working is a major, major deal.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Rolex on December 06, 2015, 07:27:00 AM
Let's not forget the carnage as the Social Media Addicted go insane and start jumping off bridges when they can't check their Texts, Tweets, Facebook and Instagram droppings for a whole 5 minutes...
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: ghi on December 06, 2015, 09:11:41 AM
I guess Europe and other high tech societies are just as vulnerable as the U.S.
I've done some reading on the EMP threat since I found this scenario intriguing. The threat to transportation, it seems, is overstated. Most cars would survive the typical strength of a nuclear EMP (22-30 kv/m). Water infrastructure has already mostly been hardened against EMPs and can be run on backup generators if the power grid is disrupted.
You can download the reports here: http://www.empcommission.org/
I was sure Ford had worked on shielding the EECIV system in the late 70's and all systems since!
They have/had a emf/emc room to test the systems,you could hold a florescent bulb in your hand and it would light up like a Tesla experiment. I thought our resident Ford guy would have mentioned this.
Then there are all the old diesels that require no electricity to run but you'd have a heck of a time hand cranking it over,it could be done and would run as long as it had fuel and air.
All Canadians have been issued lead foil to line our Igloos as a precautionary measure,we'd hate to see our wifi go down!
:salute
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Serenity on December 06, 2015, 04:19:39 PM
Let's not forget the carnage as the Social Media Addicted go insane and start jumping off bridges when they can't check their Texts, Tweets, Facebook and Instagram droppings for a whole 5 minutes...
This is actually a very legitimate point. Everytime Facebook or Google have gone down at the source, I here local police coming on the news and radio BEGGING people to stop calling 911 because they're Facebook doesn't work.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Bodhi on December 06, 2015, 06:29:53 PM
WaffenVW, The tests done by the Commission are very vague and according to their own admission, they could not test to ultimate failure at high level E1 pulses owing to them needing to return the vehicles in an operational condition. Further, the tests were conducted on vehicle in excess of 12 years old at this point. Microprocessor technology is expanding at a rapid pace and most new vehicles these days are loaded with them.
As for your diesel generators all working, the Soviets tried that with them during tests in the 60's. According to the Soviets: "during Soviet high-altitude nuclear tests over Kazakhstan in 1962, rugged diesel generators having no solid state parts were burned out by E1 EMP. In an important international electromagnetics conference in 1994, after the breakup of the Soviet Union, General Vladimir Loborev delivered an important technical paper in which he stated, "The matter of this phenomenon is that the electrical puncture occurs at the weak point of a system. Next, the heat puncture is developed at that point, under the action of the power voltage; as a result, the electrical power source is put out of action very often." This illustrates that even vehicles without an electronic ignition or other electronic components are not completely immune from EMP.
Interesting site to read from on this: http://www.futurescience.com/emp/vehicles.html
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Brooke on December 06, 2015, 10:11:47 PM
Yep, the report is pretty clear that many vehicles would be knocked out.
My comment above was just that, at least in the lower ranges of the EMP, some vehicles would survive, and that's a big deal (compared to zero vehicles surviving).
Also, I'm not sure having generators will matter if your electrical wiring is burned out in your building.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Rolex on December 07, 2015, 03:10:24 AM
Or if you can't get diesel fuel to those temporary generators...
A solar event seems more likely to bite us somewhere on the planet, than a man-made EMP. I learned the lesson of having blankets, food and water after the earthquake of 2011 in Japan. Now that I have a decent stash, I'm protected by the gods of irony against ever needing to use it.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: WaffenVW on December 07, 2015, 04:52:08 AM
Unlike a nuclear EMP a solar flare/storm produce a very long pulse frequency which is only hazardous to very long wires like power lines, not electronics. The power grid is still fubar, but cars and most other electrical devices will be fine.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Brooke on December 07, 2015, 12:49:30 PM
Unlike a nuclear EMP a solar flare/storm produce a very long pulse frequency which is only hazardous to very long wires like power lines, not electronics. The power grid is still fubar, but cars and most other electrical devices will be fine.
Yep -- cars should be OK.
Things plugged into outlets without surge protection might be ruined. Not sure if surge protectors would be enough or not (as I haven't looked into the details).
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: WaffenVW on December 07, 2015, 02:10:43 PM
Doubtful, but the fuses should prevent any serious damage to your wiring.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: mbailey on December 07, 2015, 03:31:57 PM
Let's not forget the carnage as the Social Media Addicted go insane and start jumping off bridges when they can't check their Texts, Tweets, Facebook and Instagram droppings for a whole 5 minutes...
My 15yr old daughter came to mind when I read this. Thank god I know she can live without it....we just got back from hunting in the mountains for a week with zero cell or Internet service....she survived un-scathed
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Sabre on December 10, 2015, 03:22:45 PM
I'd like to read this book. As an electrical engineer, and always love a good Armageddon story, this idea has always intrigued me. Even though it has been noted that some significant number of autos and other vehicles will likely still function following an EMP attack (and more, in the case of a solar flare scenario), my own opinion is that somewhere between 70% to 90% of the US population would be dead within a year of such an event. There is no way the rest of the world (assuming they were not also affected) could respond within the one to two week window, with sufficient resources, necessary to prevent the millions of deaths that would occur with that time frame. Oh, and those back-up generators to keep the nuke reactors from melting down? They do not typically have the fuel to run those generators long enough to "safe" the facilities. They've got enough to run the pumps long enough to restore power from the grid, which would be down for as much as a year in this scenario.
The instant loss of most civilian communications, along with all the computers that run everything these days, would prevent the federal and even state government from mounting any serious response. Fuel would not be pumped, water would not flow, air and rail traffic would be paralyzed, followed by road traffic once the fuel in your car and stored locally at gas stations runs out (assuming the computer controlled electric gas pumps wouldn't also be down). Also, while most large financial institutions have EMP hardened databases, that won't help the average person. Most people don't have more than $100 cash on hand, and stores will likely go cash-only (until the 3-days of food has sold out). Instant inflation (supply and demand doesn't take a holiday for this) will insure that $100 won't last long. I could go on, but anyone who thinks about it will realize it's a worst-case disaster. Even if only the USA is hit directly, it would be felt world-wide. The USA is a major exporter of food, and the world financial markets still use mostly the US dollar as their reserve currency. Add to that that many countries' economies are greatly dependent on US trade, the resulting world wide financial catastrophe would insure the rest of the world would be too busy dealing with their own collapsed economies and resulting societal chaos to provide more than lip-service aid to the US.
It is criminal that our Federal Gov has not spend the roughly 2-3 billion dollars it would take to prepare for such an event (I hope that, should it occur, a hungry D.C. populace will turn to them as a ready source of protein...would serve them right). Purchasing back-up transformers, upgrading surge protection capabilities, and breaking up the grid into a larger number of interconnected, but quickly isolated, sub-grids could be started tomorrow. The inability of Congress to take action is nothing short of treasonous.
Since the government will be of little help to the average Joe, what can you do to prepare? At a minimum, I'd recommend the following first steps:
1) Have three weeks of non-perishable food, plus water, in your home. It won't see you through the full-duration of such a disaster, but you'll survive longer than most people. Plus, for less society ending disasters, it gives you options. For quite a bit less than the cost of a new car, you can actually procure a year's supply of freeze-dried food (25-year shelf life), but start by simply buying extra cans/boxes of stable, easily prepared food that you already buy. Once you've got a stockpile, rotate it as you use and buy more.
2) Prepare a 72-hour bug-out bag for each member of the family. Some disasters will be such that sheltering in place is preferred, but don't count on it.
3) Cash is king: have some cash ($1,000 is not too much) on hand, as well as barter items like silver, gold, and ammo (the three precious metals; gold, silver, and lead).
4) Very important: have a plan and make sure your family knows it.
Note on firearms: I know the fluffy, non-scary thing to say is that, "If you don't feel comfortable with having guns in the house, than don't." However, the four horsemen are not gonna politely knock on your door and say pretty please. A firearm is an equalizer, and in the event of a large scale disaster, the police are not going to be available to patrol the streets or respond to your 9-1-1 call (assuming your phone still works). Fun thread (in a warped way).
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: DaveBB on December 10, 2015, 04:55:56 PM
I'd head to the coast. A place where a freshwater river met the ocean. There's your water and food.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: ghi on December 15, 2015, 07:33:45 PM
I've just watched Glenn Beck and former CIA Director James Woolsey talking about the possibility of an EMP attack coming from .... Iran; (video below, interesting discussion) He could be is right, it's been written ... Persia/ the medes are going to be used by God to punish the world in last days; :old:
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: zack1234 on December 16, 2015, 02:24:36 AM
:rofl
How many of you have worked 12 hour night shifts and had nothing to show for it?
There is no EMP in the Gettoe :rofl
You all need to get out more.
Buy a motor bike.
No EMP when you have bills to pay.
EMP was invented by the Redcoats
If you all give me $5 I have a special selection of mouse milk that protects you from Commies and lizard men. :rofl
How much did this bloke make out of his book?
REALITY CHECK there is nothing you can do :rofl
Go live in a hole :rofl
Please note I will not post gibberish over the Christmas period because I will very drunk preparing for the North Korean invasion of Greenland.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: guncrasher on December 16, 2015, 02:55:47 AM
yes the enemy will send a few nooks to get rid of our power grid. and we in return will send a couple of thousand nooks to blow up their country.
so who wins the war?
semp
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: zack1234 on December 16, 2015, 03:23:29 AM
What war?
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: Ripsnort on December 17, 2015, 08:34:07 AM
What Sabre says is spot on. I would disagree with "Cash is king" though, it would be rendered useless. Sin items such as bullets, cigarettes, etc will be the currency initially, then gold, silver etc once stability comes back.
IN regards to my family, we're sitting on 2 months supply of food, water, even fuel for the generator and we'd harbor in place at our home since there are 10,000 acres of elk, deer, and fresh water supply 100 feet down at the bottom of our backyard. Therefore I keep 100 lbs of salt, sugar, wood chips and a large smoker should we need fresh meat. I understand that a lot of city folks would move out into the areas we live in to forage but we're quite well protected with a cliff behind us and 59 other neighbors in front of us. :)
Our "Family plan" is "Every meet at home". Wife and I have 3 day bug out bags in our car, kids are both adult boys and on their own to make it back but they are not far from home.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: ghi on December 17, 2015, 09:22:08 AM
I watched the video below on BBC yesterday, interesting when asked about ww3, Edgar Cayce mentioned the "straits above Australia". :noid
"Strifes will arise through the period. Watch for them near Davis Strait in the attempts there for the keeping of the life line to a land open. Watch for them in Libya and in Egypt, in Ankara and in Syria, through the straits about those areas above Australia, in the Indian Ocean and the Persian Gulf.” Edgar Cayce reading (3976-26) April 28, 1941
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35031313
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: FLS on December 17, 2015, 10:07:31 AM
Only a real psychic could predict strife in the world. :old:
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: zack1234 on December 17, 2015, 10:56:59 AM
I have a spoon and a stick from a dead tree if THEY do something.
Comedy gold to be honest.
And a bit sad really that grown ups don't actually grow up👀
Apparently WWIII is next Wednesday or Thursday .
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: morfiend on December 17, 2015, 01:27:20 PM
What Sabre says is spot on. I would disagree with "Cash is king" though, it would be rendered useless. Sin items such as bullets, cigarettes, etc will be the currency initially, then gold, silver etc once stability comes back.
Your point is well taken, Rip. I was really talking about the first few days of a crisis, before true panic sets in. During that brief window, before people realize that the cavalry is not going to come in and save the day, most people/businesses will still take cash. And in the event of a shorter-term, less apocalyptic disaster cash will generally continue to be accepted. Recall that during the Great Depression, the banks were closed for a short time; those without cash on hand were left more desperate than those exercise that authority again. So I still strongly recommend people keep some extra cash on hand.
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: zack1234 on December 17, 2015, 04:46:29 PM
What disaster is this then?
The Charlton Heston type or the Mel Gibson type?
Or ths Jack Nickleson type in "One fles over thd Cuckoos nest"?
Maybe Donald Trumpy pants wig will save us?
No wonder rich people think poor people are daft :rofl
Will Smith will save us :old:
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: ghi on December 17, 2015, 08:40:44 PM
I watched this bizarre unexplained video named 11B-X-1371 , it's believed to hide a terrorist threat coded , already has a page on Wikipedia; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11B-X-1371 ; read the interpretation on Wiki, :noid :bolt:
video only; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quyXS4a0JGQ
Title: Re: One second after
Post by: ghi on December 21, 2015, 07:49:41 AM
I read this thread on "Before it's news", starting from same book; this site if full of spam bs also, but has 4000+ subscribers every evening, some good stuff if you dig deeper; http://beforeitsnews.com/self-sufficiency/2015/12/emp-american-blackout-are-you-prepared-for-a-major-power-outage-2498398.html I found this documentary video posted interesting , driving a car under a simulated EMP device :(