General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Mongoose on December 26, 2015, 11:41:57 AM
Title: Landing a 262
Post by: Mongoose on December 26, 2015, 11:41:57 AM
To go along with Earl's thread about landing.
The few times I have played around with a 262, I found it nearly impossible to get slow enough to land properly. I had to shut down the engines to get down to the speed I wanted. Is this normal for a 262? or is there a better way to land?
I'm not talking about landing in general, but specifics of landing the 262.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: pembquist on December 26, 2015, 11:56:24 AM
It would be nice if along with the performance data there were a few more speeds published, say stall speed, gear, flap, approach, best climb. As it is if you want to know that information you have to spend time as virtual test pilot which while interesting for some seems more like the aircraft manufacturer's job to others.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: FLS on December 26, 2015, 12:17:14 PM
The key to landing is controlling your rate of descent with throttle while flying at your desired speed. This is harder in the 262 because of the slower thrust response. When you hear the stall horn you have enough drag from lift to slow down and you adjust power to set your descent rate.
Practice by flying level at landing speed with gear and flaps out and changing your rate of climb/descent with the throttle.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Puma44 on December 26, 2015, 12:30:26 PM
The few times I have played around with a 262, I found it nearly impossible to get slow enough to land properly. I had to shut down the engines to get down to the speed I wanted. Is this normal for a 262? or is there a better way to land?
I'm not talking about landing in general, but specifics of landing the 262.
With the 262's clean design and lack of props (i.e., drag devices), it will take a longer distance from the runway to slow and configure for landing. If you happen to be setting up at the same general distance as done with a propeller driven plane, that may be contributing to your frustration. It certainly doesn't require shutting down an engine(s) to land.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: save on December 26, 2015, 12:32:40 PM
1rst flaps come down at about 340mph. The trick is to do a long approach, and land after flaps are fully deployed, set it down at 200 mph, use rudder to slow it down faster in flight.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Zimme83 on December 26, 2015, 01:17:27 PM
For both the 262 and 234 i recommend that the landing starts on the downwind, enter downwind leg at about 1000ft agl and do the landing check list before turning final (full flaps, gear down) so that you use the engines to maintaining the speed at around 150 during approach. It is a lot easier to control the final if the engines are used instead of trying to bleed speed off. It also helps in the event of a go around.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: BaldEagl on December 26, 2015, 03:56:46 PM
Cross control. Works in every plane.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: colmbo on December 26, 2015, 05:45:50 PM
Do what fighter pilots do, use a tight 360 overhead pattern pulling hard at the break to bleed speed. Once you get the first notch of flaps out it will slow fairly quickly.
150 on final is a lot of padding, 110 works fine and you won't float near as far in the flare.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: captain1ma on December 26, 2015, 05:55:14 PM
cut throttle back way before you need to, she don't want to slow down. I find cross controlling works well with slowing the plane down. use lots of rudder and just wobble back and forth til you can start dropping flaps. that should be around 250. also at 250 you can drop your gear, use that to slow down. keep working the rudder and keep dropping flaps. you should hit the end of the runway about 120-150. by then you should have full flaps out. that should help, then just stand on the brakes.
if you're coming in too hot, I tend to fly by the base, with flaps down. pull hard and circle around, and then try to come in again. be careful with speed, if you get to slow, you cant spool up fast enough to save yourself, trust me.
if you'd like to see how its done, feel free to contact me and ill show you in the ava or training arena.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: DaveBB on December 26, 2015, 09:26:07 PM
Years and years ago, I used to fly with the DWHBG. On one mission, we found ourselves in Me262s without a base to land at, except a carrier. Talk about a fun landing experience. Full flaps, gear down, and speed about 140mph. That is the right combination for getting aboard the CV. However, in that configuration, you will be nose high. So you have to scoot all the way forward, and to the right and use the carriers tower as a reference point to land. As soon as you get over the deck, shut off the engines, and waggle your rudder to slow down while apply brakes. In this particular scenario, I got behind the power curve. My speed dropped to 120mph, and even though I jammed the throttles forward, the long engine spool up time caused me to have a ramp strike. Plane broke in half and exploded. I think 3 of the 6 Me262s made it on board.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: earl1937 on December 27, 2015, 02:53:40 AM
Do what fighter pilots do, use a tight 360 overhead pattern pulling hard at the break to bleed speed. Once you get the first notch of flaps out it will slow fairly quickly.
150 on final is a lot of padding, 110 works fine and you won't float near as far in the flare.
:airplane: I concur with Colombo and I will describe how I do it! I use 1500 feet above ground level as my "break" altitude, for a number of reasons. As I approach the field, I like to be back to around 70% power, maintaining around 350MPH. Just as I get to the "mid" point of the runway, I close the throttles completely and bank left in a 90 degree bank! This is where it gets tricky, only pull back on the elevators until you "black" out to the point that you are looking down a "tunnel" and no more, you don't want to black completely out as you may crash before waking up. As the speed begins to "bleed" off, due to closed throttles and holding your altitude to 1500 feet, apply first two positions of flaps and leveling out on the opposite heading of the runway. At this point, you will be down to 250 or less and can deploy the landing gear! Now you have to judge when to turn "base" leg, or a 90 degree point to the runway and you should begin a descent as now you will be approaching the point at which you need to turn inbound to the runway or on final approach! All this time, you will notice that your speed has been decreasing and as you turn to final approach leg, you will be down to somewhere around 175 or 180. Just remember this is a "jet" aircraft and the control surfaces are not as large as most prop driven aircraft, so that will require you to make larger control stick movements to get the result that you want. As you are now on "final" approach, you may have to re-apply some throttle, because now you want to extend your flaps fully, but keeping your "rate" of decent to around 500 feet per minute. As you get closer and closer to the end of runway, you want to be down to 110MPH as you cross the end of the runway, about 50 feet high. As you cross the end of the runway, close your throttles completely and as the aircraft "settles" down towards the runway, begin a slight increase in the amount of "back" pressure on the elevator and as you do this, you may lose sight of the runway, because of the long nose of the 262, so you must begin to use the side view, referencing the side of the runway. When you touch down, continue to hold back pressure on the elevator, as that will help slow the aircraft down and you can apply braking action while in this attitude. You will notice a couple of things about being in this "final" attitude! #1, if you should have to "abort" the landing, the aircraft will already be in the proper attitude and to "abort" the landing and go around again, just add full throttles, raise the gear and as you speed approaches 175 or so, begin to "milk" the flaps up to the 50% setting and adjust your attitude with the elevator to establish your climb attitude back to 1500 feet. #2, just remember, these were very early jet engines and they have a "lot" of "lag" before they spool up to provide thrust! Just remember, as the pilot, you have to stay "ahead" of the aircraft by planning and using your head for something besides a hat rack! That is why I recommend going to 11,500 feet above ground level and practice doing what I have just described! One or two times doing this and you won't have anymore problems landing a 262! Good flying guys!
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Kazaa on December 27, 2015, 05:45:08 AM
Max rudder and crab on approach.
/thread.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: MiloMorai on December 27, 2015, 07:33:00 AM
If you are at 110 mph you are in a stall condition Earl.
From the Me262 Pilot Notes: The airplane stalls at 180 to 202 km/hr (112 to 125 mph).
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: colmbo on December 27, 2015, 10:23:31 AM
If you are at 110 mph you are in a stall condition Earl.
The stall horn will be bleating but you are still very much in control. Even at 15000 pounds (just under full fuel) you can get down to 110 before the buffet starts. Offline for fun I've flown final in buffet but not something I'd do with perks at risk. <G> She is a bit touchy that slow and it takes a good shot of power to cushion the landing.
120-125 is a comfortable approach speed for all weights, the stall horn should be sounding -- maybe in and out of horn as you play the edge. Use power to adjust glideslope as FLS posted, pitch to control airspeed.
My patterns are flown a little different than ETs. I fly initial (the leg going same direction as your landing) on the deck, speed across the approach end 450-500 IAS, power at idle. Auto level as I fly down the runway then at the departure end a hard break to tunnel vision keeping the nose just above the horizon so I climb a bit to the downwind, I get the flaps out ASAP, as soon as I start the break I start hitting the flap button. You'll roll out on downwind at around 300IAS, keep putting flap and gear out ASAP. Continue downwind until speed 200 or less, gear down and full flaps then start your turn to final (no base leg, you should be tight to runway) and if needed put in some top rudder to slip through the turn to bleed speed/altitude as needed. Roll out on final at around 130IAS, continue to slow until stall horn sounds then add power to control glideslope. Fly that attitude until touchdown or flare and ease her on touching down at 86-90 IAS. There will be enough runway left after you stop to depart if you choose to do so.
AHF file showing overhead pattern, break and landing then takeoff of remaining runway. Aircraft weight just under 15000 pounds (http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/aceshigh/262hvybreak.ahf)
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: earl1937 on December 27, 2015, 11:06:05 AM
If you are at 110 mph you are in a stall condition Earl.
From the Me262 Pilot Notes: The airplane stalls at 180 to 202 km/hr (112 to 125 mph).
:airplane: That is what the book says, but as Colombo has pointed out and as I have experienced, it handles just fine at 110kts, especially since you are down around 20 to 25% fuel on board. You must remember, at 110kts, you are descending for landing and you might hear the stall warner from time to time, but if you are good enough to fly the 262, that shouldn't bother you! I usually try to stay about 120 to 125 on long final, bleeding off the excess speed as I approach the end of the runway! But, caution: if you are down to one engine, you need to stay around 150MPH IAS, until committed to landing, then it doesn't matter if one engine is shut down. The only time it does matter is if you have to abort a landing for some reason, then you better be 150 or more or it will "roll" over on its back and crash! the best time to know proper procedures and the worst time to practice them, is during a real emergency, so practice with the 262 in all realms of flight and learn what it will do!
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: FLS on December 27, 2015, 12:02:02 PM
If you are at 110 mph you are in a stall condition Earl.
From the Me262 Pilot Notes: The airplane stalls at 180 to 202 km/hr (112 to 125 mph).
The level stall speeds in the manual assume normal takeoff weight not landing weight. Posted stall speeds are for level flight. When you descend nose up with power it is a controlled stall condition if you define the stall as the inability to maintain level flight. It's the departure from controlled flight you need to worry about.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: WaffenVW on December 27, 2015, 07:12:45 PM
FLS, "inability to maintain level flight" and "departure from controlled flight" are at the same speed (or more correctly at the same angle of attack).
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: FLS on December 27, 2015, 07:31:14 PM
FLS, "inability to maintain level flight" and "departure from controlled flight" are at the same speed (or more correctly at the same angle of attack).
I think you can safely separate them in a controlled descent.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: earl1937 on December 27, 2015, 08:52:25 PM
I think you can safely separate them in a controlled descent.
:airplane: A lot of good comments and I would like to add this: Once I establish my 2.5 degree glide angle, I press shift plus X and if I need to, I can add a little power to slow the descent or if I have to go around for another approach, I just add full power, wiggle the "stick" slightly to come out of auto descent, raise the gear, milk the flaps up to 50% and start preparing my traffic pattern for landing again. I hadn't mentioned the "shift + X thing, as a lot of the people in here might not understand how to use that feature of the game! You can, and I have done it several times, once you get everything stabilized, continue right down to the runway and chop throttles and "wa, la, you have landed. While doing that is not like a "flight director" auto function which will make any corrections needed to maintain that 2.5 degree glideslope. but its kinda neat to do that and see it come out correctly. And before anyone brings it up, there is no correct way to establish the 2.5 degree glide angle, but eye ball engineering beats plain old guess work!
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Oldman731 on December 27, 2015, 09:09:07 PM
I don't think that's anyone's definition of a stall.
- oldman
The speed at which you can no longer maintain level flight is your stall speed. You disagree with that?
The precise definition of a stall is a debatable point. There is also the fact that wings will stall unevenly. For example if you have flaps down that portion of the wing will stall while your ailerons are not stalled. So are you then stalled or not stalled? Part of your wing exceeds the stall angle of attack and you're flying with full control while descending. What do you call that? If you drop a wing I call that a departure from controlled flight. If you control your descent I call it a good landing.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: WaffenVW on December 27, 2015, 11:08:02 PM
The speed at which you can no longer maintain level flight is your stall speed. You disagree with that?
No, but not in the way you think. Just because you're not able to maintain altitude does not mean you're in a stall. Planes descending normally with a nose high attitude are not in a stall. They're simply flying in a decent with a high angle of attack that is still below critical.
The precise definition of a stall is a debatable point.
No.
A stall occurs when the critical angle of attack of the airfoil is exceeded. The critical angle of attack is the angle of attack on the Lc/AoA curve at which the max Lc occurs. Increasing AoA beyond the critical leads to a separation of airflow over the wing and a decrease in lift. A stall.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: FLS on December 28, 2015, 12:00:09 AM
A stall occurs when the critical angle of attack of the airfoil is exceeded. The critical angle of attack is the angle of attack on the Lc/AoA curve at which the max Lc occurs. Increasing AoA beyond the critical leads to a separation of airflow over the wing and a decrease in lift. A stall.
That's a fine definition for a uniform wing section. What do you call it when the wing doesn't have the same AOA from root to tip?
Also most wings don't depart at Clmax, they lose lift as AOA increases but separation leading to departure occurs after that point which defines the stall.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: WaffenVW on December 28, 2015, 12:54:11 AM
The definition of stall is when the critical angle of attack is exceeded. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Once the wing starts to lose lift it is by definition stalled. How deep it is into a stall or how much of the airflow is separated is a different matter entirely, and irrelevant. Whether the direction of flight is level, climbing or descending is also irrelevant. Only the angle of attack matters.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: FLS on December 28, 2015, 01:07:07 AM
That's correct. So at 19 degrees AOA on your graph you are stalled and descending with a nose high attitude which is what I originally said and what Oldman objected to. :aok
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Zimme83 on December 28, 2015, 02:09:29 AM
Based on my experiences from stalling aircrafts i have to disagree with you FLS. It of course differ from one plane to another but unless we are talking modern fighter jets i have hard to believe that it is possible to fly a plane with stalled wings and still keep it under control. What you can do is flying in a near stall position and take advantage of the increased drag.
Only plane i know of that can do anything close to a post stall flight is the Cessna 150, with flaps up the elevators cannot increase AoA enough to make the plane stall so it ends up in a very near stall position in a slow descend.
Adding this vid, is shows that the stall happens very quick once critical AoA is reached and it result in pretty much total loss of lift.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: FLS on December 28, 2015, 02:32:04 AM
Total loss of lift in the graph is at 22 degrees. Stall is 18 degrees. Say you're flying at 18.1 degrees. Now you're stalled. Not a huge difference. You are past CLmax and still flying under control. You haven't dropped your nose or a wing. 19 degrees is just a matter of degree.
And we are talking WW2 fighters generally not that particular lift curve which simply illustrates my point.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Zimme83 on December 28, 2015, 02:48:13 AM
But it doesn't work the way you think it works, don't let the chart fool you. There isn't any gradual loss of lift post stall, you simply fall down plus you don't have any effect from the ailerons besides doing things even worse by put the plane into a spin. You cannot fly and control a plane with a stalled wing, especially not a WW2 fighter. (except for modern fighter jets of course.)
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Zimme83 on December 28, 2015, 03:19:42 AM
A video with a high AoA approach, were they use the increased drag to do a steeper approach and a shorter landing:
Note that wing is not stalled at any point during approach.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: earl1937 on December 28, 2015, 05:13:11 AM
The speed at which you can no longer maintain level flight is your stall speed. You disagree with that?
The precise definition of a stall is a debatable point. There is also the fact that wings will stall unevenly. For example if you have flaps down that portion of the wing will stall while your ailerons are not stalled. So are you then stalled or not stalled? Part of your wing exceeds the stall angle of attack and you're flying with full control while descending. What do you call that? If you drop a wing I call that a departure from controlled flight. If you control your descent I call it a good landing.
:airplane: There is no debate about a stall! A stall is defined as when the wing stops producing lift! This can occur in a number of different ways, but the AOA certainly plays the important part of defining when a wing is stalled! Another way to look at it is this: when the amount of wing area, as measured between the "separation" point and the leading edge of the wing, does not produce enough lift to support the aircraft in flight! You can stall the aircraft in just about every attitude you can think of! A "deep" stall is the most dangerous of all stalls, as you can't get enough airflow over the control surfaces to change the attitude of the aircraft, so that the wing can regain flying speed. That is why most "heavy" aircraft of today are not stalled completely, only "approach" to stalls are demonstrated or practiced!
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Oldman731 on December 28, 2015, 07:16:33 AM
Total loss of lift in the graph is at 22 degrees. Stall is 18 degrees. Say you're flying at 18.1 degrees. Now you're stalled. Not a huge difference. You are past CLmax and still flying under control. You haven't dropped your nose or a wing. 19 degrees is just a matter of degree.
And we are talking WW2 fighters generally not that particular lift curve which simply illustrates my point.
I'm afraid not. Once your AoA is beyond critical the onset of stall is usually abrupt. This is because the loss of lift (even if it is minor at first) leads to an uncommanded increase in AoA (aircraft starts dropping). The increase in AoA worsens the stall and thus increase the AoA rapidly until the aircraft becomes uncontrollable. We're talking a fraction of a second to a couple of seconds depending on aircraft type, G-loading, attitude and other factors.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: FLS on December 28, 2015, 11:37:06 AM
I think some of you are confusing the stall with the separation of airflow that occurs after the stall. This supports my statement that the stall definition is debatable. :D There are more than one accurate descriptions of a stall.
It's instructive to look at the lift curves for different wings and the obvious differences in post stall lift.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Mongoose on December 28, 2015, 02:27:01 PM
Wow, look what I started.
Thanks you all for the input. From a quick read of the first few posts, I quickly picked up that I was trying to land the jet the same way I would land my normal prop-driven plane, and not giving it nearly enough time to slow down. I rarely take a 262 for a spin, but I will remember this next time.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Zimme83 on December 28, 2015, 03:11:59 PM
I think some of you are confusing the stall with the separation of airflow that occurs after the stall. This supports my statement that the stall definition is debatable. :D There are more than one accurate descriptions of a stall.
It's instructive to look at the lift curves for different wings and the obvious differences in post stall lift.
In this case it is not debatable, as i said - You need a modern fighter jet to be able to fly and control a plane at an AoA beyond stall. A WW2 plane cannot do it even in theory.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: FLS on December 28, 2015, 03:42:19 PM
In this case it is not debatable, as i said - You need a modern fighter jet to be able to fly and control a plane at an AoA beyond stall. A WW2 plane cannot do it even in theory.
So your theory is that you can't fly at 18.1 degrees AOA on the lift curve in the graph?
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Zimme83 on December 28, 2015, 04:16:43 PM
I dont have a theory, it is very simple. once the critical AoA is exceeded the wing will stall and the only thing you can do then is is to decrease AoA and restore the airflow over the wing. The exact critical angle differs from plane to plane and it is not so relevant here. When the wing stall it happen so fast that it is irrelevant if you can go 0.1 degree past critical AoA or not. Look at the first video i posted, it clearly shows that once the critical AoA is reached the airflow separates from the wing and the wing will no longer produce any lift. There isnt any smooth "curve" like in the chart, its more like falling of a cliff.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: FLS on December 28, 2015, 05:36:03 PM
I dont have a theory, it is very simple. once the critical AoA is exceeded the wing will stall and the only thing you can do then is is to decrease AoA and restore the airflow over the wing. The exact critical angle differs from plane to plane and it is not so relevant here. When the wing stall it happen so fast that it is irrelevant if you can go 0.1 degree past critical AoA or not. Look at the first video i posted, it clearly shows that once the critical AoA is reached the airflow separates from the wing and the wing will no longer produce any lift. There isnt any smooth "curve" like in the chart, its more like falling of a cliff.
Perhaps your example doesn't represent the behavior of all wings.
The lift curve in the graph shows too much lift after the stall to indicate separation of flow.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: BaldEagl on December 28, 2015, 05:47:47 PM
If a stall is defined as the point at which the wing no longer produces lift how can there be "post stall lift"?
Because the stall AOA is defined as the point of CLmax on the lift curve not as the loss of lift from air flow separation. What pilots casually refer to as a stall may be the nose or wing dropping after the stall AOA is passed.
When the definition is "no longer able to maintain level flight" then it's more obvious that lift has simply decreased prior to the point of separation of airflow.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Busher on December 28, 2015, 06:42:16 PM
If a stall is defined as the point at which the wing no longer produces lift how can there be "post stall lift"?
Formal definition: A stall is a condition in aerodynamics and aviation wherein the angle of attack increases beyond a certain point such that the lift begins to decrease. The angle at which this occurs is called the critical angle of attack.
The stalled wing still produces lift.. just less lift than the weight of the aircraft.
Also, a given wing stalls at the same AoA regardless of airspeed.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Busher on December 28, 2015, 06:54:48 PM
That's a fine definition for a uniform wing section. What do you call it when the wing doesn't have the same AOA from root to tip?
Also most wings don't depart at Clmax, they lose lift as AOA increases but separation leading to departure occurs after that point which defines the stall.
FLS, with respect Sir, Angle of attack is an aerodynamic term that applies to an aircraft's flight condition. What you refer to in the reference "from root to tip" is actually "angle of incidence". AOI is adjusted to force sections of wings to stall at different times as angle of attack increases. I am sure you can visualize that if the tips of a swept wing jet were permitted to stall before the roots, the resulting change in center of pressure would cause a pitch up - making an already poor situation worse.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: FLS on December 28, 2015, 07:21:58 PM
Thanks Busher I'm aware of your points. The conversation started with landing with flaps and as you know the flaps change the incidence of the inner wing relative to the outer wing. I was making a point about being stalled while maintaining control since the outer wing's incidence gives it a lower AOA compared to the inner wing for a given attitude. This was in contrast to the uniform wing section typically used to illustrate attached flow.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: hitech on January 04, 2016, 04:41:15 PM
Thanks Busher I'm aware of your points. The conversation started with landing with flaps and as you know the flaps change the incidence of the inner wing relative to the outer wing. I was making a point about being stalled while maintaining control since the outer wing's incidence gives it a lower AOA compared to the inner wing for a given attitude. This was in contrast to the uniform wing section typically used to illustrate attached flow.
FLS: Your confusing your self my mixing terms. Per any flap configuration there is only 1 stall AOA. That angle is when the entire wing starts producing less lift with more AOA. You can absolutely maintain level flight with some parts of the wing stall, (normally it will be the wing roots) but the WING has not yet stalled because more AOA can still generate more lift.
AS to the 262 the key is slowing down before you try to begin you pattern and glide slope. Nose up first, flaps down, then descend also works instead of a break turn. But if you are trying to descend with out first having the flaps down, it is almost impossible to slow down.
Also this is a much more typical lift curve then show previously in this thread. Most airfoils do not drop off sharply. And many start to increase again with higher AOA.
See this document for very High AOA lift curve.
(http://www.dinosaurtheory.com/LiftCurve01.gif)
See this document for very high AOA lco's http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20090001311.pdf
HiTech
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: FLS on January 04, 2016, 05:31:52 PM
Thanks Hitech. I know that any aircraft, even an inverted gull wing F4U with flaps down, has a 0 lift AOA and a stall AOA regardless of what happens with parts of the wing. I was trying to explain that you can fly beyond the critical AOA and the stall point is not the departure point. I would have been better off pointing out the video did not identify the critical AOA and referred to the total loss of lift as the stall.
I still think "stall" is not specific enough in general usage to avoid confusion but I could have explained myself better.
Thanks for the graph.
This reminds me of a lift discussion with stoney. :D
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Zimme83 on January 05, 2016, 02:52:16 AM
But still, for conventional aircrafts flying with a stalled wing is in reality impossible due to loss of control (no airflow over ailerons) and the huge drag created at such high AoA. None of the planes in the game have the engine power to overcome the drag.
Flying with a stalled wing requires a very powerful jet and also a system like thrust vectoring or canards to maintain control.
I dontīt know why we discussing this in a thread about landing a 262, if you stall a 262 on final or try to fly the approach in a stall you will crash.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: FLS on January 05, 2016, 09:23:02 AM
We're trying to tell you that your concept of "stall" is incorrect. You are in a stall condition when the AOA increases beyond the critical AOA, this happens before the airflow is disrupted and you lose all lift. The stall is not a sudden event, you can fly stalled, you just can't maintain level flight.
If you need help reading the chart let me know.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: WaffenVW on January 05, 2016, 09:50:10 AM
This thread is just sad.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: EskimoJoe on January 05, 2016, 09:58:36 AM
I found it rather interesting.
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Someguy63 on January 05, 2016, 10:19:51 AM
lol
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: colmbo on January 05, 2016, 10:44:12 AM
.you can fly stalled, you just can't maintain level flight.
In game or real-life?
Buffet is the vibration felt from airflow turbulence caused by the separation of flow over the wing. Separation of the airflow is the stall.
I've attached a link to an AH vid of a flight in a 262 where for very nearly the entire flight I am in buffet--- climb, downwind and landing --- if I correctly understand the AH stall modeling being in buffet means at least part of the wing is stalled. Flight done with full fuel.
Get the vid here (http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/aceshigh/262buffet.ahf)
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: FLS on January 05, 2016, 11:13:57 AM
Correct. In game if any part of either wing is stalled you get stall buffet.
You're over 1g so that's an accelerated stall. Instead of losing altitude you're degrading the turn rate.
Btw you can turn the ack off if you put the drones in field guns.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: earl1937 on January 05, 2016, 02:25:49 PM
FLS, with respect Sir, Angle of attack is an aerodynamic term that applies to an aircraft's flight condition. What you refer to in the reference "from root to tip" is actually "angle of incidence". AOI is adjusted to force sections of wings to stall at different times as angle of attack increases. I am sure you can visualize that if the tips of a swept wing jet were permitted to stall before the roots, the resulting change in center of pressure would cause a pitch up - making an already poor situation worse.
:airplane: Hold on a sec sir! Angle of attack is the angle at which the airflow flows over the wing! Angle of incidence is the angle where the wing is attached to the fuselage, relative to the center line from tail to nose! Neither has anything to do with the other! Wing wash out or in is when the engineer's "twisted" the wing tip up or down, to make the whole wing stall together, so as to promote a more docile stall condition! Of course in later years, with the advent of "slats", a slower stall speed was reached in the interest of safety! Of course all of these statements are referring to a straight and level flight path! Now, lets take the same aircraft, doesn't matter which one, and put it into a 60 degree bank angle! Which wing will stall first and where does the stall begin and end on the wing? and when the stall occurs, which way does the aircraft react?
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: FLS on January 05, 2016, 03:04:28 PM
Earl, Busher was responding to me talking about how the incidence in the inner wing effectively changes when the flaps are deployed. As you know this lets the outer wing with the ailerons meet the air at a different angle than the inner wing so you have more control when flying past the critical AOA.
This is obvious in AH if you fly with the stall buffet with and without flaps.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Wolfala on January 05, 2016, 04:16:11 PM
Here you go.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: pembquist on January 05, 2016, 05:35:45 PM
The semantics of this thread are killing me.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Busher on January 05, 2016, 07:41:05 PM
:airplane: Hold on a sec sir! Angle of attack is the angle at which the airflow flows over the wing! Angle of incidence is the angle where the wing is attached to the fuselage, relative to the center line from tail to nose! Neither has anything to do with the other! Wing wash out or in is when the engineer's "twisted" the wing tip up or down, to make the whole wing stall together, so as to promote a more docile stall condition! Of course in later years, with the advent of "slats", a slower stall speed was reached in the interest of safety! Of course all of these statements are referring to a straight and level flight path! Now, lets take the same aircraft, doesn't matter which one, and put it into a 60 degree bank angle! Which wing will stall first and where does the stall begin and end on the wing? and when the stall occurs, which way does the aircraft react?
I think you might have simplified AOI - the actual aerodynamic definition is:
the angle between the chord of the wing and the longitudinal axis of the fuselage
As to your comment "to make the entire wing stall together", I must respectfully correct.
Aircraft with a swept wing suffer from a particular form of stalling behaviour at low speed. At high speed the airflow over the wing tends to progress directly along the chord, but as the speed is reduced a sideways component due to the angle of the leading edge has time to build up. Airflow at the root is affected only by the angle of the wing, but at a point further along the span, the airflow is affected both by the angle as well as any sideways component of the airflow from the air closer to the root. This results in a pattern of airflow that is progressively "sideways" as one moves toward the wingtip.
As it is only the airflow along the chord that contributes to lift, this means that the wing begins to develop less lift at the tip than the root. in extreme cases, this can lead to the wingtip entering stall long before the wing as a whole. In this case the average lift of the wing as a whole moves forward; the inboard sections are continuing to generate lift and are generally in front of the center of gravity (CoG), while the tips are no longer contributing and are behind the CoG. This produces a strong nose-up pitch in the aircraft, which can lead to more of the wing stalling, the lift moving further forward, and so forth. This chain reaction is considered very dangerous and was known as the pitch-up.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Oldman731 on January 05, 2016, 07:59:23 PM
None of your links refer to losing virtually all lift. They simply say there is a reduction in lift. This is not in dispute and is shown in the graphs posted in the thread. How much the lift is reduced after Clmax varies with the wing design. It's sharper in jets for example than in typical WW2 fighters.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: JOACH1M on January 06, 2016, 10:17:15 AM
I don't think this is true. By definition, if you exceed critical AofA, you're in a stall and you've lost virtually all lift.
- oldman
Very common misconception, when only slightly into the stall the wing is still generating almost as much lift as just before the stall. See the graph I posted.
HiTech
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: pembquist on January 06, 2016, 11:21:29 PM
EDIT--put away horse flail despite its eloquence
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Charge on January 07, 2016, 04:39:19 AM
"This produces a strong nose-up pitch in the aircraft, which can lead to more of the wing stalling, the lift moving further forward, and so forth. This chain reaction is considered very dangerous and was known as the pitch-up."
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Mongoose on January 09, 2016, 11:20:14 PM
So did I. And I learned a bunch of other things as well.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: EskimoJoe on January 10, 2016, 11:38:34 AM
I learned how to better manage landing in a 262. I wouldn't say it was difficult before, but it was something of a puzzle trying to scrub speed and manage an approach without some of this knowledge. Good stuff
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: earl1937 on January 11, 2016, 05:51:48 AM
:airplane: You and I both know that it's all about speed management! Most guys who know nothing about flying for real, have little chance of learning, unless they spend some time learning the fundamentals of flying!
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Zacherof on January 11, 2016, 07:24:34 AM
What I do know if you lose flaps it's really hard to slow down. And if you have 1 engine you have to be careful kicking rudder back and forth or you flat spin. I did learn how to land deadstick tho :)
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: Puma44 on January 15, 2016, 08:48:37 PM
:airplane: You and I both know that it's all about speed management! Most guys who know nothing about flying for real, have little chance of learning, unless they spend some time learning the fundamentals of flying!
Yep! Zactly my friend.
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: morfiend on January 16, 2016, 05:59:23 PM
:airplane: You and I both know that it's all about speed management! Most guys who know nothing about flying for real, have little chance of learning, unless they spend some time learning the fundamentals of flying!
That's why I'm here to help players learn those fundamentals!
The problem I see is that both new and old players seem hesitant to come to the TA and ask for help,that and this is a game and meant for fun and it's not always fun learning the basics but I try to make it fun and keep it simple!
Many players come and say they need help with shooting and aiming,only to find out that it's not their shooting but it's how they fly that's causing the issue.
As for landing the 262 or any plane,most players fly the plane in with their stick,instead they should use throttle to adjust rate of descent.This allows them to use a slight back pressure on the stick and they are less likely to prang the prop!
I'd like to add that you dont have to be a trainer to help players,just need to be willing to help and hopefully know what you're talking about.....unlike me..... :o
:salute
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: earl1937 on January 18, 2016, 04:53:57 PM
That's why I'm here to help players learn those fundamentals!
The problem I see is that both new and old players seem hesitant to come to the TA and ask for help,that and this is a game and meant for fun and it's not always fun learning the basics but I try to make it fun and keep it simple!
Many players come and say they need help with shooting and aiming,only to find out that it's not their shooting but it's how they fly that's causing the issue.
As for landing the 262 or any plane,most players fly the plane in with their stick,instead they should use throttle to adjust rate of descent.This allows them to use a slight back pressure on the stick and they are less likely to prang the prop!
I'd like to add that you dont have to be a trainer to help players,just need to be willing to help and hopefully know what you're talking about.....unlike me..... :o
:salute
:airplane: "Sorry", but the kerosene burner doesn't have a prop! But that is OK, we will get HT to add one!
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: morfiend on January 18, 2016, 06:07:02 PM
:airplane: "Sorry", but the kerosene burner doesn't have a prop! But that is OK, we will get HT to add one!
Earl,
HT owes me a favor so I'll ask him to add the prop next update!
Maybe you missed where I said"or any other plane."
:salute
Title: Re: Landing a 262
Post by: MiloMorai on January 19, 2016, 12:06:11 PM
Does anyone have the book Messerachmitt Me262 by Radinger and Schick?
In it is a diagram of the landing pattern flown with text in German.
The downwind leg is flown ~2km off the runway slowing from 350kph (landing gear lowered) to 300kph. I think it says flaps lowered 25 degrees before the turn (~3km from the runway) which is done at 280kph. Coming out of the turn the a/c is doing 230kph. About 1000m from the runway the a/c should be at 30-40m height above ground, still at 230kph. A 100m from the runway the a/c should be at 10m height.