Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: oakranger on February 07, 2016, 01:49:38 PM
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HT, It used to be that I could attacked any GV and de-tracked it, damaged the engine or take out the top turrent Mg gun. Not the case anymore. What did you do to my jug's .50 cals?
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This is a very good question. I've seen what a real ~single~ .50 automatic weapon can do... nuff said.
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the never ending question of has the .50 cal been nerfed. I dont have problems getting kills. I only fly the p51d. so whatever.
semp
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IRL .50 cal could do little to kill a tank in second half of ww2,you could damage individual parts, or individual tank crew members but to destroy it, you had to be very lucky.
Even the IL2 had a hard time doing it with its more powerful guns IRL , unless it attacked from ridiculous angle at later tank models.
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the never ending question of has the .50 cal been nerfed. I dont have problems getting kills. I only fly the p51d. so whatever.
semp
Never said anything about not getting kills but what we can no longer do to GVs.
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I get tracked all the time by 50 cal and m18,m8,m16,m3 etc all will die by 50cal if you make enough passes engine or turret will go on a panzer you could take out a hetzers engine easily with a jugs 50s
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I get tracked all the time by 50 cal and m18,m8,m16,m3 etc all will die by 50cal if you make enough passes engine or turret will go
I question your story on that.
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I question your story on that.
I had to add more but what I say happens to me all the time not sure about the t34s Panthers or tigers vs 50 cal
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Nothing,
Zero,
Nada,
The absence of something.
HiTech
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I had to add more but what I say happens to me all the time not sure about the t34s Panthers or tigers vs 50 cal
Are you sure it wasn't 20mm or bigger rounds or another tank. I used to attack GVs all the time in the p47 will the result of detracted them. Some time ago, few years back, something change that I can no longer do that.
Nothing,
Zero,
Nada,
The absence of something.
HiTech
Could you possibly check if the program got change that you might have missed it?
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Never said anything about not getting kills but what we can no longer do to GVs.
ok let me explain a different way. the real reason why gv's dont get tracked is because you dont see them from 6k like before. so you have less time to line up. I used to kill werbies in il2's at will, but when they stopped the f3 view on it plus decreased the distance to see gv's to basically zero (sarcasm). I stopped getting kills in il2 or actually harder to get kills. did they nerfed the il2? not really.
semp
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Could you possibly check if the program got change that you might have missed it?
wow is this like in terminator where the program became self aware?
semp
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Are you sure it wasn't 20mm or bigger rounds or another tank. I used to attack GVs all the time in the p47 will the result of detracted them. Some time ago, few years back, something change that I can no longer do that.
Could you possibly check if the program got change that you might have missed it?
No
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Are you sure it wasn't 20mm or bigger rounds or another tank. I used to attack GVs all the time in the p47 will the result of detracted them. Some time ago, few years back, something change that I can no longer do that.
Could you possibly check if the program got change that you might have missed it?
positive..just me and 2 ponys at their base they had no ord the just worked me over pass after pass, first tracked then turret then tower I was in a panzer
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ok let me explain a different way. the real reason why gv's dont get tracked is because you dont see them from 6k like before. so you have less time to line up. I used to kill werbies in il2's at will, but when they stopped the f3 view on it plus decreased the distance to see gv's to basically zero (sarcasm). I stopped getting kills in il2 or actually harder to get kills. did they nerfed the il2? not really.
semp
I have no problem seeing the GVs 15 to 20k. I have no problem line up on for attack to put in enough rounds to do the job.
positive..just me and 2 ponys at their base they had no ord the just worked me over pass after pass, first tracked then turret then tower I was in a panzer
Do you have film on this? If not film your GV runs and the result of .50 cals doing that.
Party pooper.
No
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50s have always been nerfed. Part is the lack of hitting power but the damage model is more to blame. HT thinks 20s are howitzers and 50s are paint pellets. Jug should have about the same snap shot ability as a Spit16. Not even close in game. Either 20s are overmodeled or .50s are undermodeled. Since I've fired the ma deuce and seen the results... I'll say the .50 is not just undermodeled, they're an insult to a legendary weapon which is still in use today.
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When it happened to me I went offline and made two of my drones Panzers and practice 3 straffing them with the pony and sure enough if enough .50s goes into it it dies
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This is a very good question. I've seen what a real ~single~ .50 automatic weapon can do... nuff said.
Tumor, get a life bro. :x :rofl
Just kidding man. :salute
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I for one wish the 50 calls were a bit more lethal. In real war damaging the plane meant they usually booked it home. In the MA it means they still have longer to live during the fight. Chasing someone around putting bullet after bullet in them while maintaining SA is difficult and is exhausting. For example, I was flying the C202 on a special events yesterday against F4Fs. They are incredibly strong, I get it, but when I'm shooting 2 12.7 and 2 303s from a distance of 350 just absolutely drilling them with at least 70-150 flashes, and they still prance around like nothing even hit them, I don't get it. I got 6 assist because they just wouldnt die. Plane after plane making their rounds of shots to take down a F4F and then I get an assist after wasting all my ammo. I am only chiming in because this irritates me too.
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Well I think the 50 Cal lethality should be dialed down for a few players I would pay extra for the 50 Cal bullies like, violator. Messiah, yucca, Dodger.AKAK.SFOX, and lazer just to name a few so there :neener: jk I bet I've been sent more to the tower by 50 cal than cannons..<S> to all my fph's
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50s have always been nerfed. Part is the lack of hitting power but the damage model is more to blame. HT thinks 20s are howitzers and 50s are paint pellets. Jug should have about the same snap shot ability as a Spit16. Not even close in game. Either 20s are overmodeled or .50s are undermodeled. Since I've fired the ma deuce and seen the results... I'll say the .50 is not just undermodeled, they're an insult to a legendary weapon which is still in use today.
Hitech hates 50s. No military buff in his right mind would allow a single 20mm to land into a AAA circle and blow it up ... while a 3 second P47 burst doesnt do anything except if you manage to hit the gun itself. Its all for the greater good of gameplay. DCS is no better btw, you'd go nuts seeing how many 50s you need to down a 109. :cheers:
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BTW Oaktree, you could kill panzers in AH before that's true. It was not due to the 50s, it was due to a 'gap' in the PZ panels. It was mentioned by Pyro, so thats quite a while ago.
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They are probably close to calculated value, the thing is the 20mm and .50cal hits at 500-800 yards out, I regulary kill at 800 yards with 20mms, and only the A20 and to some extent F4us seem to be doing the same thing at that distance at me.
The real life 50-300 yards shooting range, where 2 .50cal = 20mm is as it should be.
I think a new damage model would help the .50 caliber, so would a icon with no range (only +1k and -1k on it help, not only at closing in, but also aginst the HO's.
Get rid of the range alltogether for the wirbies, they have the advantage of ambush and kill you before the icon show up at your own field.
50s have always been nerfed. Part is the lack of hitting power but the damage model is more to blame. HT thinks 20s are howitzers and 50s are paint pellets. Jug should have about the same snap shot ability as a Spit16. Not even close in game. Either 20s are overmodeled or .50s are undermodeled. Since I've fired the ma deuce and seen the results... I'll say the .50 is not just undermodeled, they're an insult to a legendary weapon which is still in use today.
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Looking at gun cam footage i dont see any significant difference in hitting power of the .50s, most planes seems to need a few second burst to go down and they dont just fall out of the sky. But as said above, we usually fires from a greater distance than they did irl and we also dont have a realistic effect of PW:s, IRL any PW most likely force the pilot out of the fight or to bail. We on the other hand dont bother too much about damage planes and wounded pilots as long as it flies.
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When Saburo Sakai in his A6m was caught by those 10 F6f that shot him to pieces and he still managed to escape. Yes he was a gifted plilot but, rounds still tagged him much like happens in our MA. Then 10v1 and we come in here and complain that our 50cals from the 10 didn't smoke the 1.
If you are committed to this position. Like was done with the Dora to prove the radiator damage model was wrong. Go to the DA and make films of shooting all the fighters in question with P51 and P47. Shoot to test random damage out to 800. Shoot to test full on close snap shots. And shoot full on close 6 shots. One of the damage elements no one is complaining about, the FW wing 20mm and 30mm HE\Minengeschoß ammo will explode ripping the wing off throwing the FW into a snap spin. The are guncam films of this.
Also put up a custom arena and just like with the Dora, park the planes in question while another player drives up a jeep and pings all of the areas in question to test the damage model. Your films will show the results and maybe then Hitech will consider your request.
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I think my record is 44 rounds (.50) for killing a spit...
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I think my record is 44 rounds (.50) for killing a spit...
7 rounds, killed the pilot. was in an m3 with a p38 flying by.
semp
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7 rounds, killed the pilot. was in an m3 with a p38 flying by.
semp
Impressive, The 44 rounds were enough to cut the wing of the spit..
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50s have always been nerfed. Part is the lack of hitting power but the damage model is more to blame. HT thinks 20s are howitzers and 50s are paint pellets. Jug should have about the same snap shot ability as a Spit16. Not even close in game. Either 20s are overmodeled or .50s are undermodeled. Since I've fired the ma deuce and seen the results... I'll say the .50 is not just undermodeled, they're an insult to a legendary weapon which is still in use today.
but have u seen a 20mm...
have you fired a 20mm...
have you seen the results of a 20mm...
a .50cal is 12.7mm and very little room for explosive not to mention of the billions of round of .50 ever made and fired 90% is just lead/"standard" ball ammo.
20mm is in a different class all together called "cannon"
.50 cal is still used today because we made a million weapons, a trillions of bullets, works well enough and its american in origin.
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.50 certainly feels less than lethal. I took a couple of films the other day because I was frustrated at the lack of hitting power.
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Anyone can open the arena setting and look at the power settings for guns!
IIRC the 50 cal is set to 1 pound,1.1 for a GV mount.
You can go offline or setup a custom arena and adjust the damage settings for buildings,gun emplacements etc. this will allow you to test the weapon.
Think about it,if HTC increased the effectiveness of the 50 they would have to adjust all other weapons accordingly. 20mm would become a 1 hit wonder much like the 30 against fighters.
Really what players want is not a stronger 50 but a better damage model,or HTC could make it so you would auto eject if you got hit with say 20 or 30 50cals.... but everyone would complain about that too!
YMMV.
:salute
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The general gist of what I've read in passing was historically, the .50 was a buzzsaw in close, got worse as range increased. That seems to me to be pretty close to what we have in game. At convergence it snapshots just fine. Outside of that or only hitting with one bank, it takes a bit longer burst to remove parts.
When you consider it's not an explosive round and it's relying mostly on KE, I don't think its effectiveness is out of line.
Wiley.
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We are also in the game's era of no really easy kills anymore. Even the noobs today catch on fast how to survive this fish bowel stuffed with hungry sharks. Then add in the vagaries of the Internet, the .50 just seems emasculated from say 2007 with it's packed target rich environment.
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Nothing wrong with the .50.
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Nothing wrong with the 50 when a pursuer can saw off parts of your plane at 1000 yards.
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Nothing wrong with the 50 when a pursuer can saw off parts of your plane at 1000 yards.
I am talking about de-tracking GVs.
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Nothing,
Zero,
Nada,
The absence of something.
HiTech
Thought as much.
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Try going into the DA. Grab a C202 with 50s and 303s. Get your buddy to roll a f4f or Fm2. Shoot your buddy in the F4F from 250-300-400-600. Let me know how many bullets it takes you.
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Try going into the DA. Grab a C202 with 50s and 303s. Get your buddy to roll a f4f or Fm2. Shoot your buddy in the F4F from 250-300-400-600. Let me know how many bullets it takes you.
The cowl guns in the 202 are not the same .50s as those on the US planes. The Italian ballistics are significantly worse.
- oldman
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The cowl guns in the 202 are not the same .50s as those on the US planes. The Italian ballistics are significantly worse.
- oldman
So you are telling me that even though the bullets are close in general but not quite the same, that it should take over 400 rounds or more to take down an American plane with lets says 270 bullets actually making contact just to be fair?
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So you are telling me that even though the bullets are close in general but not quite the same, that it should take over 400 rounds or more to take down an American plane with lets says 270 bullets actually making contact just to be fair?
They are not close in general. The browning .50 and the soviet shvak 12.7 are head and shoulders above the other .50cals of wwII. Having said that I do think the explosive power of the ho-103 and breda 12.7mm HE is too weak in Aces High.
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They are not close in general. The browning .50 and the soviet shvak 12.7 are head and shoulders above the other .50cals of wwII. Having said that I do think the explosive power of the ho-103 and breda 12.7mm HE is too weak in Aces High.
I think the mouse-size explosive in the Breda shows up a bit when you get the range under 200 yards. No science behind this, just a sense I've gotten over the years.
- oldman
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Yeah but after watching an actual video of what 30cal vintage wwII explosive sniper ammo does my opinion changed. I was surprised how powerful it was, and this was just rifle ammo. They set a block of ballistic soap on a cinder block and shot it, the blast alone shattered the cinder block. And then you consider that the breda 12.7mm bullet has three times the mass of an 8mm.
Here's the video of the nerds testing it. Go to about 9 minutes into the video if you're short on time.
https://www.full30.com/video/82efb579fd3c93d177205966ef3d3c9d
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When the ammo exploded inside of a block of something that contained the explosion for a moment or something brittle like a cinder block, yes the round is very impressive. Inside of essentially a large empty aluminum can with a gas vent hole, not as much. Any round making it into the cockpit, .30 and up is the magic BB to one ping kill the pilot.
You will have to argue with Hitech over how much he has weighted the 12.7 HE round against the damage weight list when it comes to engines and fuel tanks. I think the damage list is numerical with the AN\M2 50 cal weighted at 1. Not a list of specific components and their weaknesses against specific ammo types. So a component will have a number that has to be exceeded by any combination of ammo or destructive influence and the component is destroyed.
That is why performing the test with a jeep's M2 in a custom arena while the plane is parked will help. Otherwise you are telling Hitech about your feelings and not hard data.
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Why is this thread still open? :headscratch: There's nothing wrong with the .50 cal.
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I did a few run test (P-51, P-47, Temps, and 190) attack a GV. each plane did five passes on the same side of the tank. Results: No de-tack.
Will conduct another test run.
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British data on combat ranges RAF report "2nd T.A.F./O.R.S. Report No. 43" reviewed 482 combats from RAF gun cameras from Spitfires and Tempests.
Of the 272 destroyed claims from these 482 combats, 86 % were from combat distances of 400 yards or less.
The table (1 - 2 % inaccuracy due to rounding in the original report):
600 yards and less: 96 %
400 yards and less: 86 %
300 yards and less: 74 %
200 yards and less: 52 %
My estimate from my own shooting is that 50% of my kills is from 400 yards or less, 50% is from longer range.
RL vs AH is very different,
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Anyone know how the 20mm Hispano compared to NATO 20mm? IIRC Hispano was a longer round, heavier too, but I couldn't find anything today on it. Where is Tony when you need him.
A couple YT videos of a guy shooting a motor block with both 50 API and 20mm solid rounds (the 20mm is 1700gr, and again, IIRC, the Hispano was 2000gr-ish and had high explosive for a warhead which was responsible for much of the damage inflicted on structures). In the vid the 20mm blew right through the block, the 50 didn't, but still did a lot of damage...no dog in this argument, it's just interesting to discuss IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pEylQ2G5-U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8FzzEyegJQ
Shooting at stuff on the ground at 50 yards is obviously not meant to represent scientific evidence of which round does what in terms of air combat, again, just interesting and IMO gives an overall idea of what both rounds are capable of vs the motors of aircraft - 50 to 200 yards these rounds won't lose more than 10 to 15% of their energy potential IMO, and less for the 20mm due to the HE not being affected by velocity - too bad the shooter in the vid didn't have HE 20mm rounds.
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Normally a bullet have to travel through other hard surfaces before entering an engine block, deforming it some, and also travel some distance.
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So yester day while in a 4 hog, due to my low ammo I only used a half a second burst on a 47M who was in a high speed/G turn. Whole burst landed on wing and wing sheered off due to the wing being right at my convergence( sometimes rare lol) you ever try to get your convergence on the treads oak tree?
Just a thought. I'll try it after work
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So yester day while in a 4 hog, due to my low ammo I only used a half a second burst on a 47M who was in a high speed/G turn. Whole burst landed on wing and wing sheered off due to the wing being right at my convergence( sometimes rare lol) you ever try to get your convergence on the treads oak tree?
Just a thought. I'll try it after work
My post question is on de-tracking GVs. I used to do that until one of the upgrades, I can not longer do.
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Maybe you're just getting old.
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
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Looking at gun cam footage i dont see any significant difference in hitting power of the .50s, most planes seems to need a few second burst to go down and they dont just fall out of the sky. But as said above, we usually fires from a greater distance than they did irl and we also dont have a realistic effect of PW:s, IRL any PW most likely force the pilot out of the fight or to bail. We on the other hand dont bother too much about damage planes and wounded pilots as long as it flies.
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Amen on the pilot wound. Having seen human body damage from a ma deuce on an m113 APC in the 60's up close and personal.
Very few humans would survive to fight on thru multiple greyouts after being hit by one. An 1800 grain m2 ball slug or
1785 grain tracer round does an impressive amount of damage from even a grazing flesh wound.
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Nothing,
Zero,
Nada,
The absence of something.
HiTech
friking awsome made my day after a long work week
is this yet another talk about poor product placement?
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1800gr .50 cal gullet? You sure about that? Typically the largest rifle 50 rounds are in the 750 to 800 gr range, and surplus/military aircraft 50 rounds are from low 600s to low 700s gr weight.
Still the overall point of pilot wounds from 50 cal strikes is true, yet pilots were wounded by splinters from both the round as well as parts of their aircraft which would have been easily survivable too.
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more granular damage model is probably high on HTC's to-do list.
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1800gr .50 cal gullet? You sure about that? Typically the largest rifle 50 rounds are in the 750 to 800 gr range, and surplus/military aircraft 50 rounds are from low 600s to low 700s gr weight.
Still the overall point of pilot wounds from 50 cal strikes is true, yet pilots were wounded by splinters from both the round as well as parts of their aircraft which would have been easily survivable too.
You are correct the M33 Ball is 706.7 grain. Now i'm trying to figure out the site I saw the table at 1800. I was probably looking at 20mm instead of .50/12.7mm. Cannot find it now.
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1800gr .50 cal gullet? You sure about that? Typically the largest rifle 50 rounds are in the 750 to 800 gr range, and surplus/military aircraft 50 rounds are from low 600s to low 700s gr weight.
Still the overall point of pilot wounds from 50 cal strikes is true, yet pilots were wounded by splinters from both the round as well as parts of their aircraft which would have been easily survivable too.
also 50 fired under 100 meters (prolly 50) will literally cut a human body in half due to the vortex the bullet creates. I can only imagine what 8 would do :bolt:
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dont know how or why, but a few weeks ago, i was spotting a Panzer with a 47N, i shot nearly straight down, into the top of the tank and killed it. as far as i know he was untouched. its the one and only time ive killed anything besides an m3, m8, m16, or m18 with a MG.
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A very hard shot IMo great job