Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Slade on February 12, 2016, 09:26:38 AM

Title: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Slade on February 12, 2016, 09:26:38 AM
Maybe this (http://www.michael-elliott.com/wikis/ww2planes/index.php?n=Site.GameFacts) might help you fly better understanding how things actually work.


Slade  :salute
(flying as X15)
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 12, 2016, 12:23:53 PM
The Rolling Plane Set quote is from me.  lol

Thanks for posting the list Slade, hopefully this will clear up some misconceptions that some players have.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Slade on February 12, 2016, 12:25:16 PM
Yep Ack-Ack that is why I took the time to do this.  Clear up misconceptions.  :aok


I just added section on ACK.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: hitech on February 12, 2016, 12:27:52 PM
You have far to much time on your hands Slade.

HiTech
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Squire on February 12, 2016, 12:30:28 PM
Quote
"Per your standard there would never be an Aces High or any other simulation based game or product. Because you are trying say if not modeled 100% accurate then why model it at all. I doubt there is any thing in AH or any other simulation that is 100% accurate. But to answer you question close is better then not at all."

Indeed.  :aok
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Slade on February 12, 2016, 12:33:20 PM
Quote
You have far to much time on your hands Slade.

Maybe today! :rofl

I am a stats\facts nut though having worked for NASA etc.. 

It is clearer in compiling this how much effort you put into the game.  It feels like about 5 times more than I thought before compiling this modest page and I am a programmer!  :salute
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: hitech on February 12, 2016, 12:40:08 PM
Maybe today! :rofl

I am a stats\facts nut though having worked for NASA etc.. 

It is easy to see in compiling this how much effort you put into the game.  It feels like about 5 times more than I thought before compiling this modest page and I am a programmer!  :salute
Thanks,

Some simple facts.

I wrote my first game in 1974 (simple hi low guess number on teletype computer)
I wrote my first animation in 1977 (modified start track game to show photon torpedoes animated across the terminal)

Been writing flight sims since 1993.

HiTech

Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Scca on February 12, 2016, 12:49:46 PM
Thanks,

Some simple facts.

I wrote my first game in 1974 (simple hi low guess number on teletype computer)
I wrote my first animation in 1977 (modified start track game to show photon torpedoes animated across the terminal)

Been writing flight sims since 1993.

HiTech
So, what you're saying is you're old....
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Slade on February 12, 2016, 12:51:18 PM
I have a hunch you know the C programming language better than anyone I have met.

I use Python, SQL\PL-SQL, xBase (Clipper to xHarbour), PHP, VB and the standard web stuff (HTML5\CSS\XML\JavaScript).  I try to stay away from Java but...

Still sounds like you have fun with it though it can be very hard and tedious work.  :salute

Me too!
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: hitech on February 12, 2016, 01:15:13 PM
I have a hunch you know the C programming language better than anyone I have met.

Cut my teeth In C just post collage in 83 writing a robotic control system on a unix based computer.  Coming from Pascal and Algol C confused the crap out of me.

HiTech
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Slade on February 12, 2016, 01:29:54 PM
Quote
Coming from Pascal and Algol C confused the crap out of me.

Pointers! Ugg!  :bhead


I understand them now but took me a while.


EDIT: Your initial investment in UNIX (now LINUX) I bet has come back to you many fold.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: hitech on February 12, 2016, 01:35:20 PM
Pointers! Ugg!  :bhead


I understand them now but took me a while.

And the worst of the worst was writing a bi-modal interrupt driver for rs232 ports in does.
Dang thing had to talk across 16 & 32 bit systems to process data no mater what mode the processor was in.

And then writing low level joy stick stuff who had to time the draining of a capacitor, but couldn't disable interrupts for the timing because the the serial reader would miss characters at higher baud rates and the boards would only buffer 1 character.


HiTech
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Slade on February 12, 2016, 01:43:50 PM
Quote
bi-modal interrupt driver for rs232 ports

I wrote a few of those too.  Interface between Main Frames (Wang, MicroData etc.) and PC's (Novell).  Had the SAME problem.  Got around it by dedicating a non-flow control pin to dump the mismatch bytes to a buffer.  In my case I could go to 32k.  That was HUGE in the early 90s!

The alternative was having to use 9 track tapes (holding up to 40 mb compressed).  Loaded so many tapes I will never forget the loading key sequence for a Cypher tape driver. EVER! 45335153  :rofl

EDIT: I think it is because we put in a custom UART chip on the serial card that we could go 32k. :-)
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: 715 on February 12, 2016, 01:50:10 PM
I tried to learn C once using Kernighan and Ritchie.  Coming from VB, C appeared to me to be designed as an instrument of torture bent on destroying my computer in a fireball of crashes.  That book went back into the bookcase about 30 years ago and hasn't been touched until just now, when I used it to see how to spell Kernighan.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Skuzzy on February 12, 2016, 01:54:54 PM
I tried to learn C once using Kernighan and Ritchie.  Coming from VB, C appeared to me to be designed as an instrument of torture bent on destroying my computer in a fireball of crashes.  That book went back into the bookcase about 30 years ago and hasn't been touched until just now, when I used it to see how to spell Kernighan.

And that was the book I learned C from, circa 1978 or 79.  It was a breath of fresh air.  Although I still loved assembly programming the Z80 (Zilog) and 68K (Motorola) family of processors.

It was the Intel CPU which pushed me to C.  I hated Intel assembly.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: redcatcherb412 on February 12, 2016, 01:57:04 PM
Cut my teeth In C just post collage in 83 writing a robotic control system on a unix based computer.  Coming from Pascal and Algol C confused the crap out of me.

HiTech

Makes one wonder after starting coding on an IBM system-3 in RPG and COBOL in the 70's and ending on the IBM RISC Unix based systems in C just how AH2 would look coded in RPGII   :D
I think my old IMSAI 8080 in assembler might have drawn an aircraft in pretty 5x7 matrix dots
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Scca on February 12, 2016, 02:05:54 PM
Und die schlimmsten der schlimmsten schrieb einen Bi-Modal unterbrechen-Treiber für rs232-Anschlüsse in tut.
Ding Dang musste über 16 & 32-Bit-Systeme, Daten zu verarbeiten egal welchem Modus sprechen der Prozessor war.

Und dann schreiben niedrigen Niveau Freude Stock-Sachen, die Zeit, die Trockenlegung eines Kondensators mußte, aber Interrupts für das Timing konnte nicht deaktiviert werden, weil die serielle Leser würde fehlen Zeichen bei höheren Baudraten und die Bretter würde nur Puffer 1 Zeichen.


HiTech
Ya, I got that...  You guys got it too?  Yup, no problem at all...  :confused:
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: redcatcherb412 on February 12, 2016, 02:10:11 PM
Although I still loved assembly programming the Z80 (Zilog) and 68K (Motorola) family of processors

As an old Ham operator, with the limited ham club budgets we got around costs by building our own control boards for mountaintop repeaters and 2 meter phone patches and burning the program on an EEPROM for the MOS6502 processor for commodore vic 20's.  Radio Shack had alll the hardware needed to build it.  I found one of my old vic-20's cleaning out the garage a few months ago and placed it reverently on a shelf.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: hitech on February 12, 2016, 02:11:04 PM
I tried to learn C once using Kernighan and Ritchie.  Coming from VB, C appeared to me to be designed as an instrument of torture bent on destroying my computer in a fireball of crashes.  That book went back into the bookcase about 30 years ago and hasn't been touched until just now, when I used it to see how to spell Kernighan.

the 4 must have books.

K&R C (Is where I learned C from) still the best references on preprocessor define formations. Such as what ## does.

This type of define is extremely use full
#define pkMSG_ENTRY(A) {A ## _FMT,NULL,A ## _ID,sizeof(A ## _MSG) ,#A }

Stevens TCP/IP Illustrated Vol 1 & 2
Stevens Inter process communications

HiTech
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Wiley on February 12, 2016, 02:33:28 PM
Ya, I got that...  You guys got it too?  Yup, no problem at all...  :confused:

 :rofl  Like anything, it's simple once it's learned.  Well, perhaps the stuff they're talking about is a bit less simple. ;)

Wiley.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: save on February 12, 2016, 04:02:47 PM
Wrote LISP and Forth ( because I hated assembler) programs for microcomputers, and  PL-1 and APL fort IBM Mainframes during the dark years in the early 80's.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: HawkerMKII on February 12, 2016, 04:23:02 PM
most time I would say "IN" to a thread...but I am "OUT" on this one, have 1000% no clue what you all are talking about :bolt:
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Canspec on February 12, 2016, 05:45:57 PM
My computer programming training circa 1970:

Fortran
1. Writing a program to make the computer add 2+2
2. Entering the data onto punch cards via punch card machine
3. Sending the punch cards off to the one computer in town that could process the cards
4. The cards returning a week and a half later with the resulting printout. If in error...repeat steps 1-4

5. Visiting the computer (which took up a good sized room) and being amazed that it could print out a snoopy calendar.

.....times sure have changed.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: SPKmes on February 12, 2016, 06:09:00 PM
What a bunch of geeks... But don't stop what you are doing...i like this game!!!
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: SlapShot on February 12, 2016, 06:15:25 PM
And that was the book I learned C from, circa 1978 or 79.  It was a breath of fresh air.  Although I still loved assembly programming the Z80 (Zilog) and 68K (Motorola) family of processors.

It was the Intel CPU which pushed me to C.  I hated Intel assembly.

While working at Timex in '80, a Co-Worker and myself were given the task to write a demo program for the Timex Sinclair 1000. It was Z8080 Assembler that we wrote the demo program in. The demo program was called "Grimm's Fairy Trails" which was a PacMan knockoff and it was a pretty good knockoff at that. Coming from BAL assembler into Z8080 was a shock due to the lack of registers that you had to work with. It was fun tho.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 12, 2016, 06:23:45 PM
(http://www.sportsargumentwiki.com/images/4/48/Nerds.gif)
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Vulcan on February 12, 2016, 06:44:16 PM
Been writing flight sims since 1993.

HiTech

Confirmed Kill beta?
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Vulcan on February 12, 2016, 06:46:51 PM
And that was the book I learned C from, circa 1978 or 79.  It was a breath of fresh air.  Although I still loved assembly programming the Z80 (Zilog) and 68K (Motorola) family of processors.

It was the Intel CPU which pushed me to C.  I hated Intel assembly.

I did Z80, basic, then went to prolog. Prolog was fun because you never quite knew what your program would end up doing.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: ROC on February 12, 2016, 10:30:25 PM
Just read this entire thread.  Best I can contribute is this.

I like pie.

Yep, that's all I got.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: guncrasher on February 12, 2016, 11:37:43 PM
was the thread about game facts vs. perception or game nerds vs. perception.


semp
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: DmonSlyr on February 12, 2016, 11:41:00 PM
was the thread about game facts vs. perception or game nerds vs. perception.


semp


Damnit Semp! Finally you say something funny!!
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: pipz on February 13, 2016, 07:11:47 AM
I think the nerds won. They are making all the games and money!   :old:  :)  :rock
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: hitech on February 13, 2016, 10:47:03 AM
Confirmed Kill beta?

It turned in Confirmed Kill, but I was just writing to learn what makes planes fly  and how to do graphics.
Were All simple wire frame stuff. This was all pre direct X. The interest stemmed from me playing AW.

HiTech

Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Bizman on February 13, 2016, 12:19:34 PM
I think the nerds won. They are making all the games and money!   :old:  :)  :rock

In that case I should've changed from the Accounting line to the Coder line in the Commercial School...  :mad:

It was fun to try to crack the password of the game "Eater" made by one of the Coders. Eater was a PacMan clone where the Bogeymen were replaced by letters. E for Enemy, S for eScape IIRC. Written if Fortran, Cobol or even Basic.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Tumor on February 13, 2016, 01:55:51 PM
Just read this entire thread.  Best I can contribute is this.

I like pie.

Yep, that's all I got.

Blueberry... man that's the BEST, followed by Cherry!   :x
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Tumor on February 14, 2016, 01:56:13 AM
Been thinkin about this.  I had to come back and give honorable mention to Pecan Pie.... oh ya. :x
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: DarkHawk on February 14, 2016, 12:50:32 PM
While you all were writing in assembler, fortan or cobol. I was fixing the ibm main line computers writing hand loops and programs in the machine's language,  for debug of hardware failures that the diagnostic would not fine. this was the Ibm 1400 series (ascii) and the 360/370 line.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: 715 on February 14, 2016, 01:51:10 PM
Well.. if we're telling stories about our ancient programming experience: my first program was for data acquisition and control of a crossed molecular beam experiment on a Digital PDP 8e in machine language.  Theoretically, I could type the code into a teletype and punch a paper tape, but the stupid tape kept tearing and I got tired of fixing it with scotch tape and having to manually punch out the holes.  So I just keyed the whole 4K program into the computer using the front panel switches.  And if the computer went haywire.. well I got to key all 4000 commands back in again.  Fun times.  (But it was fun counting individual molecules).
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Drane on February 14, 2016, 02:54:30 PM
OMG....the memories of the labyrinths entered and escaped. All those books are in boxes somewhere in the storage unit. Rode on the shoulders of giants and some rode on mine. Old now and....still can't talk about it. Kudos to all who endured the ride.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: hitech on February 14, 2016, 06:50:14 PM
Well.. if we're telling stories about our ancient programming experience: my first program was for data acquisition and control of a crossed molecular beam experiment on a Digital PDP 8e in machine language.  Theoretically, I could type the code into a teletype and punch a paper tape, but the stupid tape kept tearing and I got tired of fixing it with scotch tape and having to manually punch out the holes.  So I just keyed the whole 4K program into the computer using the front panel switches.  And if the computer went haywire.. well I got to key all 4000 commands back in again.  Fun times.  (But it was fun counting individual molecules).

(http://www.musicainformatica.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/minicomputer-pdp8.jpg)

Was my first also.

Loading the boot code with the octal switches was always great fun.
I'm fairly sure I still have one tape roll with my old stuff.

HiTech
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Brooke on February 14, 2016, 07:14:47 PM
We used an old PDP in our Radiation Detection and Measurement lab at the University of Michigan.  It was old even back then.  I'm not sure what number it was, but it had magnetic core memory and toggle switches to load in the boot code.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Brooke on February 14, 2016, 07:27:15 PM
One language that had a big impact on my code style is Pascal.  Over the ages, I have used C/C++, Java, BASIC, Pascal, Python, Pearl, assembly, Lisp, and Fortran.  Of them all, my favorite is Java.

C was the most frustrating, not because of the language itself exactly, but because I wrote a lot of C code on DOS machines, and DOS didn't have protected memory.  That means you could have a pointer go astray, and your program wouldn't crash where the error was, but somewhere completely different, like in a printf statement or somewhere else in memory.  It made it a pain in the arse to debug.

The worst was when I was writing some neural-network code in C on a DOS machine.  I made a holy vow never to program for DOS again and switched to OS/2.  That was in the days when Windows was still a horrible mess on top of DOS, and Unix was expensive and complicated on Intel machines.

I loved OS/2.  But then Microsoft successfully strangled it in the war between OS/2 and Windows NT (which initially was a quite a piece of crap compared to OS/2).  I ended up switching to Windows 95 after enough service packs made it usable.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Brooke on February 14, 2016, 07:30:46 PM
my first program was for data acquisition and control of a crossed molecular beam experiment

I didn't know you had a science background.  What did you work in?
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: JunkyII on February 14, 2016, 09:12:21 PM
What's going on here? :confused:
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Brooke on February 14, 2016, 09:21:05 PM
What's going on here? :confused:

It's a secret.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: guncrasher on February 14, 2016, 09:34:48 PM
What's going on here? :confused:

a bunch of guys posting stuff they found on google pretending it's theirs.


semp
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Brooke on February 14, 2016, 09:43:07 PM
a bunch of guys posting stuff they found on google pretending it's theirs.


semp

I own this:

(http://spaceaim.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Saturn.png)
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: guncrasher on February 14, 2016, 11:12:15 PM
brooke I thought every body owned Uranus.


semp
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Brooke on February 14, 2016, 11:30:44 PM
brooke I thought every body owned Uranus.


semp

 :rofl  :aok

Touche, Mr. Snappy.  Touche.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: JimmyC on February 15, 2016, 12:08:58 AM
What a bunch of geeks... But don't stop what you are doing...i like this game!!!
Truth from your future...
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: zack1234 on February 15, 2016, 12:29:34 AM
I have 3 parity bits for sale :old:

Still in their original packets :old:
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Canspec on February 15, 2016, 01:47:35 AM
Do they have their original strings attached?..... :old:
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: 715 on February 15, 2016, 02:49:32 PM
I didn't know you had a science background.  What did you work in?

Yes, my PhD work was in crossed molecular beam reaction dynamics (Chemical Physics).  Basically we crossed two beams of different molecules at 90 degrees and then measured the reaction products mass, speed, and angle.  That is what the PDP 8e was for: measuring speed, and therefore product energy, via time of flight.  After that my wife (also a PhD chemist) and I got jobs in the same lab studying the combustion chemistry of solid rocket propellants as well as supporting basic research in ramjets and scramjets with laser combustion diagnostics.  So we were both rocket scientists, so to speak.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Brooke on February 15, 2016, 04:36:12 PM
Cool, 715!  :aok
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: icepac on February 15, 2016, 10:17:01 PM
Man......that pascal does streak through a machine.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Slade on February 17, 2016, 05:10:37 AM
The main fact this topic exposed is just how many geeks play this game.  :)

Some of you guys have some pretty cool experiences.  Thanks for posting.  :aok

In creating this  (http://www.michael-elliott.com/wikis/ww2planes/index.php?n=Site.GameFacts)it really did help me understand the game better.  I hope it helps others too.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: FLOOB on February 17, 2016, 05:52:43 AM
Hitech played WOW?
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Bizman on February 17, 2016, 09:51:26 AM
Hitech played WOW?
Must've been Wizard Of Wor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard_of_Wor), available at least as a remake on sites like http://www.old-games.com/download/3120/wizard-of-wor (http://www.old-games.com/download/3120/wizard-of-wor)
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Hajo on February 17, 2016, 12:41:36 PM
I programed my remote.  Now I need a program to find it. 
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Hungry on February 17, 2016, 12:44:46 PM
Hitech played WOW?

The one he played I think they used to call Geeks in Tights

Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: hcrana on February 17, 2016, 01:11:45 PM
My first attempt was that Star Trek emulator thingy, too.  The boss has a few years on me, though.  I learned C on the job (those were the days... wizard hats all around!) and spent a couple of years building a cost-estimating system for a conveyor manufacturer.  The hardest part was having to resort to assembly language to make this newfangled gadget called a "mouse" work properly.

My favorite anecdote is the time my IBM PC crashed, and they came and REPLACED it, because of course it must have been broken.  I sure do miss knowing exactly how everything worked, and I still have a little frisson of WTF every time the answer is to just reboot the damned thing.  Might as well just wave a dead chicken over it.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: hcrana on February 17, 2016, 01:13:27 PM
Maybe this (http://www.michael-elliott.com/wikis/ww2planes/index.php?n=Site.GameFacts) might help you fly better understanding how things actually work.


Slade  :salute
(flying as X15)

Hail, fellow clansman.  I have a cuzzint with the same name.  All those double consonants make us rite sum smart.
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Arlo on February 17, 2016, 05:58:56 PM
It turned in Confirmed Kill, but I was just writing to learn what makes planes fly  and how to do graphics.
Were All simple wire frame stuff. This was all pre direct X. The interest stemmed from me playing AW.

HiTech

I wrote this post replying to your post, which is about as accomplished as I am in computer speak. I might be a pseudo graphic artist someday.  ;)
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: FLOOB on February 17, 2016, 07:15:50 PM
The one he played I think they used to call Geeks in Tights
The one what?
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Snork on February 17, 2016, 09:31:07 PM
Just read this entire thread.  Best I can contribute is this.

I like pie.

Yep, that's all I got.

Well then this is not the place for you! These geniuses all think pie are square! Hey! News flash! Cobbler are square, pie are round!
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: save on February 18, 2016, 03:55:34 AM
My first game on computers was DEC-WAR on a PDP-10
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: Hungry on February 18, 2016, 02:20:21 PM
Hitech played WOW?

Back in the Day World of Warcraft was known by some as Men or Geeks in Tights, with its wizards potions and such
Title: Re: Game: Facts vs. Perception
Post by: maxy on February 19, 2016, 12:25:36 PM
i changed the oil in my 1970 VW bug back in 1980  :neener: