Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Squire on February 14, 2016, 09:59:45 AM
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The practice has been and will continue to be that ALL strike aircraft attack their targets by T+60 minutes after roll. How many a/c may have attacked or will attack after you is of no matter. You have an hour. That's it.
Also, if it looks like your current course is going to make you late you should be adjusting it if at all possible.
Posted because its a very important rule and we need to end any confusion about it.
Thanks guys.
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Thank you for the clarification. You guys do good work! :aok
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Then change the rule in AH Events to specifically reflect what you stated here so there can be no further ambiguity.
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Thus endeth the discussion.
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I don't see where it states that ALL attack a/c must hit a target by T+60.
The rule on the AWEvents site does state that "all targets must be attacked within 60 mins of the start of frame" and that the objectives " must be attacked/defended by a CREDIBLE force",
of a minimum of 12 a/c.
If this is incorrect then it is not reflected on the AHEvents website.
Attacking with all your assets in 60 mins make the remaining hour boring as it it very rare for 2nd strikes in FSO as the rules are currently written. It also makes the event very predictable and leaves the attacking forces little room for creativity or deception with their plans.
The timeframe for the event is 2 hours. There should be 2 hours of possible action, not a huge battle in the first 60 Min's and nothing for the next 60.
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I don't see where it states that ALL attack a/c must hit a target by T+60.
The rule on the AWEvents site does state that "all targets must be attacked within 60 mins of the start of frame" and that the objectives " must be attacked/defended by a CREDIBLE force",
of a minimum of 12 a/c.
If this is incorrect then it is not reflected on the AHEvents website.
Attacking with all your assets in 60 mins make the remaining hour boring as it it very rare for 2nd strikes in FSO as the rules are currently written. It also makes the event very predictable and leaves the attacking forces little room for creativity or deception with their plans.
The timeframe for the event is 2 hours. There should be 2 hours of possible action, not a huge battle in the first 60 Min's and nothing for the next 60.
I agree with this. It takes a long time to climb out and fly to target heavy, And not very long at all to RTB most times. Because of the way it's set up, FSO can feel the same every event regardless of the plane-set or target. I think there needs to be some kind of change. Give an hour and a half to hit targets, And give each set of defenders two targets to hit, Or a choice of two targets and they have to hit on and defend one. Currently everyone knows what's going to be hit and what needs to be defended. If you're defending you climb out to your maximum altitude and wait 40 minutes for the bombers to get there. It's literally the same strategy every single FSO.
I'm not saying the 49thFG uses the same stratagy. We come up with some creative stuff, Considering the limited amount of time that we have. Your strategy planning is very limited considering your hour time limit, forced to attack one target while the defenders know what you're hitting, and if you know the climb and cruse speed of bombers it's not hard to figure out when and where they will likely hit.
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A long long time ago I was a frame CiC. It was before the T+60 rule. I devised a strike with Ju88s. I started in reverse finding exactly how long it would take to get from the target to the closest friendly base before T+120. It was a Pacific map, want to say it was Midway, so distances were long. I needed to hit a base on the east side of the map. So we went a bit South, turned East, did several laps around a sector a good bit South of the target until a certain time at which we came North and hit the target. The idea was to run the defenders out of fuel and minimize their impact on us. It worked. There were only a few left when we got there and only lost a few drones. Totally wrecked the target. Landed almost every bird in the mission with a couple of minutes to spare. I was feeling pretty good about myself as that went off just like I drew it up! Which rarely happens hehe.
Then the forum basically exploded with rants from the other side that did not appreciate my particular brand of strategery one bit! I'd basically ruined the other side's evening by forcing them to bore holes in the sky for about an hour and a half. Which was true. Thinking about it I thought if I were them I'd been pissed too.
The idea is to come up with a plan that promotes a battle, not avoid it. It's nice to have some means of injecting strategy into an attack plan. There's plenty that can be done in 60 minutes to accomplish that. That said something I just can't stand is a total lack of imagination/effort that draws a straight line from base A to base B. That's no fun either IMO. Of course ymmv.
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The practice has been and will continue to be that ALL strike aircraft attack their targets by T+60 minutes after roll. How many a/c may have attacked or will attack after you is of no matter. You have an hour. That's it.
Also, if it looks like your current course is going to make you late you should be adjusting it if at all possible.
Posted because its a very important rule and we need to end any confusion about it.
Thanks guys.
That's NEVER been the rule til just now.
Go back far enough and,
You used to have 2 hours to hit a target and you didn't even have to hit all of them (or defend all of them).
We had a number of changes, over time, to get to where we are today. Every week there were people missing out on seeing even a single red icon. For a long time it was simply taken as immersive and realistic.
As time passed changes were sought because it was rare, but possible, for you to go a couple of weeks without any action at all. The other side of it was that some people were getting swarmed - a case of far too much action!
As far as attacks go, it was first deemed enough to flash a base, then it was ok to fire some guns at a target, and finally you had to deliver some ord.
Attacking a base in the first 60 minutes came about because CICs used to get the dumb idea that they could run the other side out of fuel if they held off long enough. It never worked out that way. There was always enough fuel to defend. Too often people clocked off though because they thought the other side wasn't going to show at all. Reasonable basis for a grumble.
When the compulsory attack by 60 minutes concept was raised there was a lot of hubub. "What if you get shot down before you get there?" What if it actually isn't possible because of arena set-ups or failures? Why are we doing this again?
It was made clear that the purpose was to make sure that anybody "defending" was going to have seen some action of some kind by the end of the first hour. (It was never about measuring and penalising if an object wasn't broken by 59:59).
CiCs did game the new rule at first by sending over a single fighter with ord and having it drop and dive away. This was countered by the "reasonable force" amendment.
It was made very clear that the rule was about what the CIC had planned, not what eventuated. The CIC had to plan to strike all targets with a reasonable force and to plan to do so in the first hour. That was it (and has been it).
It was made crystal clear by the CMs that if something happened then they would be the sole arbiters and it was going to be judged completely upon intent. It was always acknowledged that many many things could stand in the way of a piece of ordnance striking a target before a particular moment. It has always been clear, and has always been administered, that it is about ensuring that defenders get a chance at action before the first hour is up and that there has been no deliberate attempt to prevent that.
It was never written that a bomb had to strike a target by the 60 minute mark and there's good reason for that.
If you think you are about to solve a problem by bringing down a hard line that moves beyond the original purpose and intent of the rule, then I fear you are about to place a heavy millstone around your own necks. It is not needed. Stick to what has been and should remain. CICs should plan to attack all targets assigned, with ordnance and a reasonable force, in the first hour. Let the CMs remain as the arbiters of whether the CIC has fulfilled the spirit and intent of the rule for the greater good.
Here's a suggestion: How about we have a few FSOs like those of a decade or more back when we had no ord on any plane at all.
Those were quite popular as I remember.
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CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that all initial attack aircraft reach their targets by T+60
That's a direct quote.
Its the stated rule and the common practice.
It is the rule.
It will remain the rule.
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CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that all initial attack aircraft reach their targets by T+60
That's a direct quote.
Its the stated rule and the common practice.
It is the rule.
It will remain the rule.
In the English language "initial" does no equal "all". Nor does it mean "every". It is my understanding that it means "beginning, first, or initial" which would imply there was more to come I.E. A secondary or follow on strike.
So an example would be 12 aircraft attack each of the assigned targets by T+60. There is no reason that another strike can not arrive anytime after and still satisfy the intent that all defenders see action in the 1st hour of the frame.
That is the rule.
You are just not seeing it correctly for some unknown reason.
It's unfortunate that the head CM for FSO cannot read and understand a simple sentence. Is it so hard to be reasonable about this.
What started this was that a strike group was a little late. Big deal, it's gonna happen every now and then. The fact is they made an attempt to arrive on time. If you need to impose some sort of penalty, that's ok. Please don't try to twist a sentence around to mean something that it does not.
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Btw 16 Bf110's attacked the base before the 60 min mark. That satisfies the rule that a "credible, initial attack occurs before T+60".
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CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that all initial attack aircraft reach their targets by T+60
That's a direct quote.
Its the stated rule and the common practice.
It is the rule.
It will remain the rule.
I'm pleased to hear that. Very pleased. It directly contradicts this post:
The practice has been and will continue to be that ALL strike aircraft attack their targets by T+60 minutes after roll. How many a/c may have attacked or will attack after you is of no matter. You have an hour. That's it.
Also, if it looks like your current course is going to make you late you should be adjusting it if at all possible.
Posted because its a very important rule and we need to end any confusion about it.
It throws the ball back to where it has always been - the CIC and the way they construct the orders. It does not say anything at all about "All strike aircraft". It also does not say a thing about bombs hitting targets by T+60 as a marker. It does not even hint at penalties being handed out because the designer decided to throw a 25mph wind in the face of the attackers. It also leaves the discretion for decisions about whether the orders have been constructed in that manner or otherwise to the CMs, as it should.
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all initial attack aircraft
The rule uses the word all for a reason. It means all. As in 100 percent. As in every single one of them.
Sorry I used the word strike rather than attack.
The rule still applies.
The rule applies if I called them strafers. The rule would apply if I called them bombers. ect.
The rule would apply if I hate green eggs and ham. ;)
:salute
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Sir, you cannot take 1 word out of a sentence and use it to support your point. The word must be used in the context it was intended. Thus if I were to say "all BLUE aircraft MUST" then this would not imply ALL aircraft....just blue ones. Aircraft of differing colors do not have the same requirement.
Please understand that the word INITIAL makes it very clear that all aircraft are not blue in this situation.
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These things tend to go in cycles.. I wonder how many veterans saw this renewed topic pop up and thought "Here we go, again."
I think the last time this got intense, we had just gone through a rules revision, and, whereas we noted that there was room for fog on the 'all ' aspect of ord delivered, we didn't make the addendum to the rules, as everybody was tired of changing the rules again. AT THE TIME ( several years ago ) all the players understood the intent of the existing rule and the quibbling stopped.
Perhaps it's time to readdress and hammer it down.
Any plane launching with ordnance must release said ordnance within T+60 of the frame start time. Should there be occasions with multiple lives, then exceptions can be made at that time.
:salute
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Gentlemen and Ladies. It was my understanding that all targets must be hit by a credible force by T+60. If I am mistaken then I stand corrected. However, I think that is how it should be played. If every bomb must be dropped, every strafer must strafe by T+60 I think that would change the dynamic significantly of the battle. There is so much more to the strategy of having 2nd and/or third strike groups hitting their targets. Maybe the first strike was low and now you have to climb back out to the possible 2nd strike hitting high. Maybe you have to refuel and rearm. Maybe you can't commit your entire defensive package to the first raid with the possibility of a 2nd.
My point is, there are many more possibilities to contend with if ALL bombs do not need to be dropped by T+60 and I believe that adds to the game and the fun.
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My two cents worth, (0.036cdn).
1. The credible force of a strike package (12 at present) must have hit their target by T+60. This does not mean that the target can not be hit again by the same and or another group after T+60.
2. Sending in fighter bombers with bombs to adhere to the T+60 rule DOES NOT count as bombs out on target. In the event that a strike package of 12 + fighter bombers is the only package to deliver bombs then they are considered bombers and restricted to bomber altitudes.
3. T+60 means T+60, Must have hit. means bombs from the entire initial strike package have hit within the target area.
4. Minimum numbers of planes that must be flown need to be lowered to numbers that the CIC can work with to provide a credible defence force.
Qbert
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Im done here. The rule has been explained.
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I am getting weary of the English language debate.
Initial refers to the T+0 strike planes.
All means 100 percent of them.
To drop by T+60 minutes.
If initial referred to all the T+0 strike planes then there would be no need to include the part about "credible force of 12 planes", but I can understand your interpretation of the wordage even if I don't agree with it. However and respectfully, your interpretation appears to be in the minority as well as the more limiting version. So why as CM's and a group of people who want to do their best to provide a fun and popular event on Friday nights would you want to mandate this unpopular decision? Does it not make sense to not put such strict limits on the FSO event? Would your interpretation not result in massive log off of the FSO players shortly after T+60 on many setups?
I.E. "alright defenders, it's t+70 and every attacker has either been shot down or is RTB and due to the size of the map there is no possibility of a second wave. Go ahead and land to save the points on the plane, no reason to keep flying in circles"
wouldn't you rather promote a situation were the defenders have to consider the high probability of secondary waves of attackers shortly after T+60? Wouldn't this give the attackers a more probable outcome of a longer time period of "fun" as reward for their staying on station.
To summarize: your interpretation of the rule will guarantee that certain setups basically end for a large portion of each side shortly after T+60 as well as make attack plans more predictable for the defenders, would this help or hurt the overall FSO experience?
Squire, please believe me that I say all this not to be rude, snarky or impetuous but only as a way to help state some of the reasons why people are pushing back so hard on your interpretation of the rule.
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What a sad response. Your weary!
It was my hope that we could come to a better solution. Even if that was a change in the way the rules are written to make things clearer in support of your position.
Instead you make another statement that can be misunderstood and misused.
I refer to " initial means T+0 " which implies that any ordnance carrying aircraft can be delayed by a few minutes and not be subject to the rule.
With this rule we should end the frame after T+60 and call it a night. No need to land, no 2nd strikes, no more FSO.
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does 10 or 15 minutes REALLY make that MUCH difference?? sheesh!! did the bomber in WW2 drop their bombs exactly on time, or did they run into little things like head wind, or fighters or ack or whatever. so one squad was a little off, does it really matter that much. did it change the score that much? seems to me, the target was pretty well trashed before those bombers showed up. they were just frosting on the cake.
maybe it was a diversion, maybe it was planned? who knows? but it happened, and no ones first born died because of it.
when I look at the map, it seems to me, the allies had a shorter distance to travel, in faster planes then the axis did. now its just my opinion and not fact, so don't get your panties in a bunch. im just saying.
I always thought we're in this for the fun. axis loses more then it wins, actually axis loses most of the time. I don't see anyone squawking about that. but jeez, one fighter/bomber group goes awry and holy hell breaks lose? lets just play the game and chalk it up to ooopsy, and do better next time.....
besides what are we going to do? take away the points because they're a little off, well ok so you beat the axis by 500 points instead of 300 points. if that's what turns your crankcase, then maybe you should consider lightening up a little, life's too short.
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I wonder how many veterans saw this renewed topic pop up and thought "Here we go, again."
Me for one. It's been fine. If you want to go through that storm again for an outcome where nobody gains (again) then go for it.
Time I found something else to do at this time of the week anyhow.
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I always thought we're in this for the fun. axis loses more then it wins, actually axis loses most of the time. I don't see anyone squawking about that. but jeez, one fighter/bomber group goes awry and holy hell breaks lose?
I've been thinking this since the whole chitstorm started...
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What a sad response. Your weary!
...well thanks for taking it upon yourself to elevate the debate.
Cheers.
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The practice has been and will continue to be that ALL strike aircraft attack their targets by T+60 minutes after roll. How many a/c may have attacked or will attack after you is of no matter. You have an hour. That's it.
Yeah, my mistake, I did not comprehend what I was reading and acted as if this was a discussion, my bad, carry on, I'm perfectly fine with it. Thanks.
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It seems our lead CM, in a burst of uncharacteristic energy, found it only necessary to address my elevation of this debate.
In the absence of any other guidance, I shall attempt to clarify this dilemma.
The rules state that all initial attack aircraft must hit their targets by T+60. (At least 12 aircraft per target which can be 4 sets of bombers) Attack aircraft that are tasked to be follow on strikes can arrive any time after T+60 but not later than end frame.
This rule will ensure that everyone sees action in the first 60 Min's of the frame but it will not preclude the opportunity for a second or third strike and also ensure that the full 120 mins frame has an chance for meaningful activity.
The CM team will strive to ensure that map distances, wind settings, and the overall design of the FSO is such that all of the above is taken into consideration and the players can maximize their enjoyment in this special event.
The CM team takes all of your concerns very seriously and will do everything possible to satisfy them in the best interest of all concerned.
Thankyou
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The rules state that all initial attack aircraft must hit their targets by T+60. (At least 12 aircraft per target which can be 4 sets of bombers)
Actually, it says 12 players, not 12 aircraft.
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I stand corrected. 12 players it is.
Thankyou ImADot.
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The rules state that all initial attack aircraft must hit their targets by T+60
Thanks for clearing that up for all of us. :salute
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:bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead
Give me my plane and my orders and I will do my best to accomplish the mission. I could care less if my plane is better or worse than the plane I am flying up against. I always make an honest effort to accomplish the mission, and have fun while I'm doing it. If you say that ALL ATTACKING AIRCRAFT MUST HIT THE TARGET BY T+60, then I will make sure to try and get this done by T+60. I reserve the right however to make a second pass in bombers if I am not lined up correctly on my target due to trying to defend my plane while trying to line up and calibrate. That is unless my chances of survival depend on me scooting out of the attack area due to heavy defense of the target. I would rather not drop ord on nothing but that may be the case. Sometimes we plan our attacks to be near T+60 mostly to run the defenders out of fuel and ammo and to drive them to a lower alt. with our escorts/ air cover. If you require that I drop all my bombs in one pass even though I know I'm only going to hit the ground and nothing else then I will, but I will say a "pox on you!", :neener: and do as I am commanded. I don't bend the rules or game the game. I enjoy the company of my squaddies, and I enjoy flying with people who fly in the MA who are wooks and knitties. HAVING FUN IS THE KEY HERE AND RISING UP TO ANY AND ALL CHALLENGES. Folks go to great lengths on this board to make a point and if you guys have to argue about it time and time again especially when something didn't work out or go your own way, then you have missed the point. Team work, friends and fun. If none of that works for you then you should ask yourself why are you even here? I know that red lives matter, but I'm still gonna shoot em! :x :salute
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And It's a great reason to stay home and drink beer and tequila...just sayin! :aok :cheers: :salute
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Well said my friend. :salute
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red lives matter?? since when??!! :rofl
:cheers: stay thirsty my friends!!