Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Mongoose on February 15, 2016, 08:45:32 AM
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What would you consider the basic combat maneuvers that a new pilot should know before getting involved in a dog fight?
My basic list:
Split-S
Immelman
Barrel Roll
Chandelle
Things like the rolling scissors would be more complex. I'm looking for basic stuff. What am I missing from my list?
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Nose down rudder kicks to avoid planes zooming on your 6. It makes it really difficult to shoot at when you go under their nose. Although timing is a factor, best to do it when they are 600-400 out. Use it to get a position for a sharp nose down turn.
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The best maneuver I ever saw was when one guy crashed his P-38 and did a 180 on its wheels and then shot down the guy he was fighting.
It was like the "Triple Lindy" of AH. :rofl
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What would you consider the basic combat maneuvers that a new pilot should know before getting involved in a dog fight?
My basic list:
Split-S
Immelman
Barrel Roll
Chandelle
Things like the rolling scissors would be more complex. I'm looking for basic stuff. What am I missing from my list?
High and low yo yo
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What am I missing from my list?
The aileron roll and the loop. Together they form the barrel roll but you learn them separately.
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Does the GHI negative push maneuver counts? Or is that complex to do? Lmao :rofl :rofl
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The eject button? :)
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The aileron roll and the loop. Together they form the barrel roll but you learn them separately.
Those two are so basic, I forgot to put them on the list. Thanks.
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Don't forget about the snap roll. It's a life saver!
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Do a search of "Basic Fighter Maneuvers". There are numerous sources. Here is one from the available list that has some great info on the basics and the more advanced: https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/ebrief/documents/02_Training_Air_Wing_Two/01_IUT/01_ACM/SUPPLEMENTS/SUPPLEMENTAL%20DOCUMENTS/NEW%20ACM%20FTI.doc
Be aware that some maneuvers presented on forums are not BFM but, various aerobatic maneuvers that involve advanced skills. Using aerobatic maneuvers as BFM may confuse the newbie and cause a lot of frustration, not to mention getting smacked time after time due to a lack knowledge of the fundamentals and wondering "why didn't that work?".
Another basic that is rarely discussed/taught, is use of lift vector. If your "instructor" isn't presenting that and explaining the use of it, they don't know the fundamentals themselves and it's prudent to move on to someone who does.
Seek out those who know the basics and get instruction from them. :salute
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Another basic that is rarely discussed/taught, is use of lift vector. If your "instructor" isn't presenting that and explaining the use of it, they don't know the fundamentals themselves and it's prudent to move on to someone who does.
Puma makes an important point here about Lift Vector. I would add the following 3 items to the list of basics related to maneuvering that should be understood "before getting involved in a dogfight" (to quote the OP):
1) Pursuit Curves (Lead, Lag and Pure)
2) E (Energy) Management
3) Turn Circles and Circle Flow (turn rate vs. turn radius)
Knowing BFM alone is like learning how each chess piece moves. But you aren't going to win many chess games simply by knowing how the pieces move. The important thing is knowing how those pieces can be used in combination, when to make certain moves and why they are right at the given moment. The same is true with ACM. So, "before getting involved in a dogfight", I would suggest knowing something about these subjects as well.
<S>
Kingpin
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What I am looking for here is a list of what the brand new pilot should know in order to not fly into the ground, and be something more than a moving target. Kingpin, I appreciate your post, but I am looking more for something I can give a new player and say, "practice these until you have them down, and then let's go have some fun." While I agree energy management and pursuit curves and the like are important, maybe even vital, a brand new player isn't likely to sit still long enough, or understand the need, until after he has flown a bit.
I do thank all of you for all of your suggestions.
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What I am looking for here is a list of what the brand new pilot should know in order to not fly into the ground, and be something more than a moving target. Kingpin, I appreciate your post, but I am looking more for something I can give a new player and say, "practice these until you have them down, and then let's go have some fun." While I agree energy management and pursuit curves and the like are important, maybe even vital, a brand new player isn't likely to sit still long enough, or understand the need, until after he has flown a bit.
I do thank all of you for all of your suggestions.
OK, I get where you are coming from. But something as simple as Pursuit Curves is so easily taught/learned, even before they can execute/practice something like a high yo-yo. So I feel it bears mentioning in your list of basic concepts.
What I often do with somebody new who "wants to learn how to dogfight" before getting too deep into BFM/ACM is simply fly a in a lazy turn and have them point their nose AHEAD of me, so they can see what lead pursuit does for closure rate and then do the same for pure and lag pursuit. I then do it again reversing my turn direction.
The reason I feel this is so useful is that a surprising number of new players expect to be able to get to where they want (or rapidly gain closure) simply by pointing their nose at the enemy icon. So, this very quick and simple lesson can be very enlightening in that regard. Most importantly, it gets them thinking about the most critical concept of combat maneuvering: how you maneuver is entirely relative to how the enemy is (or is capable of) maneuvering.
Thanks for asking for feedback and taking the time to put something together for new players!
<S>
Kingpin
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There are what I call "term words" that define basic maneuvering. Most real pilots understand terminology in a more simple and sructured flight complex. People like me who have little knowledge of actual flight understanding use techniques that are soley contributed from playing AH. I gained the philosophy of ACM and the practice of it "virtually" over many years of flying competively here. I enjoy adding input to these types of conversations because sometimes the terminology or "basic" aspect to it seems difficult to percieve.
Defense maneuvers are a new guys biggest weakness. That's why I mentioned that nose down rudder tactic. It's simple, it's effective, it conserves E, it makes them miss, it sets you up for a nose down turn/or split S or an advanced roll. I flew for 6 months in H2H before I flew in the MA. I learned the "basics" of shooting people down. Little did I know I was still a complete noob. I didn't learn that simple nose down rudder kick manuever in 6 months of playing the game. I didn't know what an Immelman was. I didn't know what a barrel roll defense was. These moves drastically changed the way I fought. I didn't know there was a "structure" to air combat until I fought the best in the game 1v1 over and over again in the DA. The point is, learning the structure to air combat and "the angles" will help you immensely during any part of your sortie.
Judging peoples E is another HUGE factor. How fast are they going? What plane are they flying? How fast are you going? Define your planes capabilities Vs there's. Can you get them to black out in a nose down spiral dive in order to lose them and gain separation. Can you spiral rope climb them? Can your plane turn inside them? Understanding the planes and their characteristics mixed with E state is soo important.
Fighting people 1v1 in the DA, especially agaisnt good sticks, will increase your awareness big time. Getting use to the stall and speed ratio of your plane is a major step in getting better. It changed my entire mentality of dog fighting. I use 1v1 tactics during every sortie. It's best to get comfortable with your plane. Use the DA to take the best out of your plane. Make that baby dance. Learn how to control your plane.
My last thing is getting good merges on enemies. Not just 1v1 nose to nose merges, but merges in order to get on a planes 6 the quickest in a furball. Can you merge into someone quickly and pull a snap shot? How close can you get to that plane as they pass you for you to be right on their 6?
Defense defense defense..counterpunching is one of the best ways to get kills.
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The basics will always be important skills, whether it be in real life or virtual life flying. Trying to start out with more advance maneuvers, will more than likely confuse the "noob", not to mention developing bad habits, and an increasing level of frustration.
For example, the "nose down rudder kick" is a great move. It's a technique comprised of BFM, use of lift vector, and energy management. It may and probably will work well against an opponent who hasn't developed the basic skills. An opponent who has the basic skills developed will simply counter it with an application of BFM, lift vector adjustment, and energy management to reposition and setup for a shot.
Earlier, there was mention of learning and using a snap roll. It's a really cool aerobatic maneuver and requires skill and practice to pull off correctly. But, it's a huge energy killer and can easily be countered with proper use of BFM. If using a snap roll works in a particular situation, you're up against an opponent without basic skills. If it doesn't work, your opponent has skills and you're in trouble.
Crawl, walk, run. Get 'em out of order and fall down. :salute
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^^^ This!
Great writeup Puma!
:salute
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^^^ This!
Great writeup Puma!
:salute
Thanks Bud! :D :salute
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I find that most real life pilots are limited in AH performance because they do not learn game tactics like nose down rolls or snap roll stall maneuvers. In real life that could be fatal, while in AH you dont actually die so you can practice it over and over again. Most real life pilots fly timidly and are normally the highest planes in the sky. Even real life pilots have to get use to the stall capabilities and E capabilities of the planes, yet most are limited to gamey factors that make some of the best players in the game different from real life pilots. Learning BFMs are essential but that simply will have little effect on actually surviving in the MA.
Further on the majority of new players constantly die because they don't know how to shake a con of their 6. You can either teach them to fly high and timid and do circles all day or you can show them defensive maneuvers that will help them escape a con approaching on their 6. Regardless, if a good stick hops your 6, no amount of ACM is going to beat them. In the FSO, you have C205 v P51D. Well the C205 cannot climb as high as a P51 so if an engagement happenes 9-10 times the P51 will start from a higher alt. How do you defend agaisnt that? When a player actually understands how to make enemies overshoot as well as understanding E potential and styles that don't include fighting in the highest and fastest planes is when they really start learning how to fight in this game much better.
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I find that most real life pilots are limited in AH performance because they do not learn game tactics like nose down rolls or snap roll stall maneuvers. In real life that could be fatal, while in AH you dont actually die so you can practice it over and over again. Most real life pilots fly timidly and are normally the highest planes in the sky. Even real life pilots have to get use to the stall capabilities and E capabilities of the planes, yet most are limited to gamey factors that make some of the best players in the game different from real life pilots. Learning BFMs are essential but that simply will have little effect on actually surviving in the MA.
Further on the majority of new players constantly die because they don't know how to shake a con of their 6. You can either teach them to fly high and timid and do circles all day or you can show them defensive maneuvers that will help them escape a con approaching on their 6. Regardless, if a good stick hops your 6, no amount of ACM is going to beat them. In the FSO, you have C205 v P51D. Well the C205 cannot climb as high as a P51 so if an engagement happenes 9-10 times the P51 will start from a higher alt. How do you defend agaisnt that? When a player actually understands how to make enemies overshoot as well as understanding E potential and styles that don't include fighting in the highest and fastest planes is when they really start learning how to fight in this game much better.
I don't think most real life pilots have that problem in here but I do know some that use it as an excuse for their poor flying in game.
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"Regardless, if a good stick hops your 6, no amount of ACM is going to beat them." "Learning BFMs are essential but that simply will have little effect on actually surviving in the MA."
Well, in the real world of flying fighters that statement would immediately raise a BS flag. It plain and simply demonstrates the author doesn't have a clue what he is talking about, and he certainly doesn't have any business teaching someone else how to do it, especially a newbee.
The statements above merely indicate the author has clearly not run into a player who knows the basics and how to employ them. The referenced "nose down rolls" and "snap roll" maneuvers are techniques (not to mention energy killers), not BFM. In actuality, they are last ditch "Hail Mary" techniques used by one who has nothing else in their tool kit and has just been lucky, so far.
"Real world pilots" groups a lot of people with various skill levels, ratings, civilian, and military in one group. Not only is it sorely uninformed and uneducated, it's insulting and demonstrates the author's ignorance.
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"Regardless, if a good stick hops your 6, no amount of ACM is going to beat them." "Learning BFMs are essential but that simply will have little effect on actually surviving in the MA."
Well, in the real world of flying fighters that statement would immediately raise a BS flag. It plain and simply demonstrates the author doesn't have a clue what he is talking about, and he certainly doesn't have any business teaching someone else how to do it, especially a newbee.
The statements above merely indicate the author has clearly not run into a player who knows the basics and how to employ them. The referenced "nose down rolls" and "snap roll" maneuvers are techniques (not to mention energy killers), not BFM. In actuality, they are last ditch "Hail Mary" techniques used by one who has nothing else in their tool kit and has just been lucky, so far.
"Real world pilots" groups a lot of people with various skill levels, ratings, civilian, and military in one group. Not only is it sorely uninformed and uneducated, it's insulting and demonstrates the author's ignorance.
That's an ignorant statement in itself because "real world pilots" no matter how much training they have are still going to find "video games" challenging because the situations are completely different for all different types of pilots. Your fighter controls aren't even the same which can be a huge challenge to get use to. The MA is completely different because you are fighting planes of all different times and regions against each other. There is no structure to flying in the MA like in real life, no mission planning or intense training not to die. You are allowed to make mistakes in AH and get away with it. Most of players in general are still learning the game. They arent advanved fighter pilots like in real life. There isn't one player in AH that has never died. Things that can be performed in the game are drastically different than in real life. You don't feel the blackouts. You don't feel gravity. Real life flying is completely different than what you can pull off in the MA. That being said, learning BFMs and ACM are important and I'm not taking anything away from that. There are just other "maneuvers" that are quite easy to pull off which might help you survive a little longer.
I have fought the best in this game.
I have won very challenging tournaments in AH agaisnt great sticks.
I am not the greatest fighter in the game in 1v1, but I am close. Hell, I even beat Skyyr (real pilot) in a 1v1 best of 5.
I have trained over 13 people on how to become better at this game and they all have become better.
I have recorded some of the best AH stats in its history for fighters.
I have one of the best K/Ds in scenarios, FSOs, and Combat Challenge, including the most kills, every time I fly in one. I had the best K/D in the last CC with top 3 kills. I got a cool Tshirt for having the top 3 kills/sortie in last year's CC.
Last month I was #1 in fighters and #1 in attack rank.
This month I am currently #2 in fighters.
My best K/D is 128/0 and ended up going 220-7 that month.
I don't have to fly at 25K in the easiest fastest planes to post good stats.
You can mock me all you want and not even fly in this game, but I have the stats and situational awareness in AH for over 10 years of playing this game to know what I am talking about. :aok
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If you've been at this for ten years, it doesn't show. If you choose not to learn the basics, that's OK, it's your $14.95 a month. But, presenting yourself as an expert to those new to the game when you can't, or won't, explain the basics is a disservice to them.
No smack talk from here, just the facts speaking from experience. Just remember, it's OK for you to admit to yourself and to others that "I don't know". :salute
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If you've been at this for ten years, it doesn't show. If you choose not to learn the basics, that's OK, it's your $14.95 a month. But, presenting yourself as an expert to those new to the game when you can't, or won't, explain the basics is a disservice to them.
No smack talk from here, just the facts speaking from experience. Just remember, it's OK for you to admit to yourself and to others that "I don't know". :salute
Think what you want but I actually try to explain things a little more simply than what the definitions reflect. I read those when I first started the game but the language was very technical and hard to follow. Telling someone to go read a manual on BFM is not going to help that person any more than me explaining in simpler detial the concept of a few maneuvers I find highly valuable in the game. You also don't consider irrational maneuvers that can only be achieved in the game in which I have pretty much gained an expert opinion on. These are certain maneuver not outlined in your manual. I prove this with my actual performance in the game which is pretty reputable. The fact that I have never seen you play the game leads me to question your abilities in Aceshigh and whether that holds merrit to actually training people in the game.
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The fact that I have never seen you play the game leads me to question your abilities in Aceshigh and whether that holds merrit to actually training people in the game.
Puma flew F-106s and F-4s in real life. He flys bigger planes now. You've made your point that AH is a game which does not fully duplicate real life, and that gamey features may allow a lay person to be good in the game because he knows how to game the game. You're welcome to fly that way, and to preen yourself because you know all these game features. That doesn't mean that others might not want to learn how real world tactics can be used in AH.
- oldman
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Personally I think both sides can definitely help a person become better at Aces High...Puma is right about starting at the basics for the new guys...but I'm sure Violator could teach them to a new flyer too.
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Problem is, your explanations skip the simple basics. That's all I'm trying to point out. Again, your $14.95 is yours, play the game the way you want, and most importantly, have fun with it.
If you want to present yourself as said expert, then learn it all, and know the basics. Let's also be clear, I didn't write "the manual" so, it's not mine. Guys far more experienced and smarter than any of us developed and wrote the manual on tactics.
Twelve "I"s and one "My" in your resume suggest a need for self promotion. From experience, that suggests some sort of insecurity.
"You also don't consider irrational maneuvers......" interesting description. Your words, not mine. And don't even suggest what I consider. The original request in this thread was for basic maneuvers. My attempt has been to provide that. You on the other hand, have muddied the waters.
"The fact that I have never seen you play the game leads me to question your abilities in Aceshigh and whether that holds merrit to actually training people in the game."
The same can be applied to you. I have never seen you play the game. So, your fuzzy logic suggests the same of your abilities. I routinely fly 3-4 days a week, several hours per day, even managed to get a nice 2.5 hours in today. Unlike your self promotion, I'll stand by my actions and reputation in game and let those who know me make the decision. Track down Jappa52 and ask him a few questions. :salute
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Puma flew F-106s and F-4s in real life. He flys bigger planes now. You've made your point that AH is a game which does not fully duplicate real life, and that gamey features may allow a lay person to be good in the game because he knows how to game the game. You're welcome to fly that way, and to preen yourself because you know all these game features. That doesn't mean that others might not want to learn how real world tactics can be used in AH.
- oldman
LOL. Oldman, I have learned this game from the inside out. The fact of the matter is that there are certain things you can pull off in this game that you simply cannot do in real life. That's why I stated that many real life pilots do not think of trying such a maneuver, which limits their success. Your body just couldn't take the stress in real life. I have actually learned this game to be very good at it, real flying has no precedent on my game play but I'm still a top fighter. When people challenge me I post proof that I know what I am talking about. It's all fair Oldman. I've simply learned the game better than most. People want to get better at the game and I provide advice to help them get better at it. If you don't think that is good advice, I'll post proof of why it is. If you don't think it is good advice, I don't really care because I am better at the game than you so my tactics obviously work better. Maybe you should practice some of them?
Problem is, your explanations skip the simple basics. That's all I'm trying to point out. Again, your $14.95 is yours, play the game the way you want, and most importantly, have fun with it.
If you want to present yourself as said expert, then learn it all, and know the basics. Let's also be clear, I didn't write "the manual" so, it's not mine. Guys far more experienced and smarter than any of us developed and wrote the manual on tactics.
Twelve "I"s and one "My" in your resume suggest a need for self promotion. From experience, that suggests some sort of insecurity.
"You also don't consider irrational maneuvers......" interesting description. Your words, not mine. And don't even suggest what I consider. The original request in this thread was for basic maneuvers. My attempt has been to provide that. You on the other hand, have muddied the waters.
"The fact that I have never seen you play the game leads me to question your abilities in Aceshigh and whether that holds merrit to actually training people in the game."
The same can be applied to you. I have never seen you play the game. So, your fuzzy logic suggests the same of your abilities. I routinely fly 3-4 days a week, several hours per day, even managed to get a nice 2.5 hours in today. Unlike your self promotion, I'll stand by my actions and reputation in game and let those who know me make the decision. Track down Jappa52 and ask him a few questions. :salute
Ohh, that's hilarious you want to call out "insecurities" in an argument about simple maneuvers in AH where you have the benefit of the doubt being a real pilot and all. I however, was forced to post my experience in AH seeing as you challenged my actual performance and mocked my advice. I've described very "basic" or "simple" maneuvers that are actually very effective in making people better pilots. Some of these maneuvers are simply irrational to perform in real life as they would be very risky. They are however very effective in the game. As soon as you realize you cannot beat my experience in the actual game, you resort illogical fallacies. The fact of the matter is that I am better at the game than you so you should actually appreciate my advice because it might actually help you get better.
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Gents, what you see here is a guy who is a legend in his own mind. A classic example of one who is so highly ego driven and knows it all that he is unable to learn from others. :salute
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Gents, what you see here is a guy who is a legend in his own mind. A classic example of one who is so highly ego driven and knows it all that he is unable to learn from others. :salute
Well said! :salute
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Gents, what you see here is a guy who is a legend in his own mind. A classic example of one who is so highly ego driven and knows it all that he is unable to learn from others. :salute
Likewise buddy.
what is you see here is evidence that I know what I am talking about IN THE ACTUAL GAME based on performance, where as you use dispute manuevers based on a handbook with no evidence that you actually know how to utilize them in the game. Anyone can say hey "go look up some BFM" but if you don't know how it works in different planes in the game than you are still going to be SOL. All you can post your "well said" comments but when it comes to actually fighting in the MA you all die against me, so again, maybe y'all are the ones who should do a bit more training. You gotta love how people hate actually good pilots in this game becuase your advice contradicts theirs, even though they post better performance measurement in the game.
It's fine. I will continue to enjoy shooting you all down. If any one actually wants to put their skills where their mouths are you'll know where to find me, but I highly doubt any of you would actually want to test your skills agaisnt a person who has spent more time getting better at the game than you.
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:rofl. Swing, and a miss.
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What would you consider the basic combat maneuvers that a new pilot should know before getting involved in a dog fight?
My basic list:
Split-S
Immelman
Barrel Roll
Chandelle
Things like the rolling scissors would be more complex. I'm looking for basic stuff. What am I missing from my list?
Just to get back to your original request, here's a pretty good reference of some basic skills to have in your tool kit.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers
It is by no means the all inclusive "how to". There are volumes of reference material available. It all depends on if you want to fly real world like, altered reality cartoon like, or a combination of the two. Obviously it's your $14.95 a month and your choice how you want to play with it. As you can see from this thread discussion, there are some who enjoy the real world aspect that is available and those that are otherwise motivated. It's a matter of how in depth you want to get and then seek out those who match your desired level of game play for help in learning how to do it. Regardless, have fun! It's just a game. :salute
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Basic Maneuvers (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/88-first-timers/learning-to-fly/1049-basic-manuvers) :aok
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Basic Maneuvers (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/88-first-timers/learning-to-fly/1049-basic-manuvers) :aok
Also a good reference. :aok
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Also a good reference. :aok
We added the energy egg to turning. :D
Energy Egg (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/89-tactics/advanced-flight-concepts/1076-turning)
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We added the energy egg to turning. :D
Energy Egg (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/89-tactics/advanced-flight-concepts/1076-turning)
Excellent! Another great demonstration of the basics that is often missing in discussion. :D