I never trust such press releases.To me it sound much more likely that he was bombed by accident by his own forces. Maybe in one of those carpet bombing sorties. The government had the option to tell that he was killed in a friendly fire incident, or that he was carpet bombed like a random lowly civilian, or to give him a postmortem medal and score some public support with a classic story of bravery, biblical Samson style.
I never trust such press releases.To me it sound much more likely that he was bombed by accident by his own forces. Maybe in one of those carpet bombing sorties. The government had the option to tell that he was killed in a friendly fire incident, or that he was carpet bombed like a random lowly civilian, or to give him a postmortem medal and score some public support with a classic story of bravery, biblical Samson style.
Considering the fact that the Russians apparently not respects civilian lives and deliberately target civilian targets and residential areas (even with cluster bombs) I'm not going to use the word "hero".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyVH6gdLJ8g
Right, because a drone has never killed an innocent... Better get off that high horse, looks like he's tired....
Right, because a drone has never killed an innocent... Better get off that high horse, looks like he's tired....
japanese killed 100's of thousands. and yet plenty of heroic pilot threads are posted here.
semp
He sure is a hero to his folks back home, and that's all it takes for him to be a hero. That's the definition of a hero: That someone thinks you are one.
Doesn't matter if you think otherwise, or the rest of the world for that matter. And if you can't say something nice...
biblicalBiblical... .. anything is possible in Palmyra; cursed satanic place for gruesome first born babies sacrifice, haunted by dark forces, home of the Temple of Baal, disciple of Satan cast on earth, Nephilin inbreed with humans; read the strong warnings in Torah, books of Kings and Jeremiah.
Biblical... .. anything is possible in Palmyra; cursed satanic place for gruesome first born babies sacrifice, haunted by dark forces, home of the Temple of Baal, disciple of Satan cast on earth, Nephilin inbreed with humans; read the strong warnings in Torah, books of Kings and Jeremiah.And if you believe any of that crap I have a bridge to sell you in New York. I'll do 60% off even.
I would tell you more, but i'm playing Russian roulette with rule#14; search Google news Temple of Baal, and youTube watch what's going on;
They are rebuilding the Temple of Baal in Trafalgar Square / London and Time Square / New York , to be unveiled on April 19th ( first of 13 days blood sacrifice to the beast); watch the news over next 2 weeks;.... Amen :noid
(http://d38zt8ehae1tnt.cloudfront.net/images/news/700_44194644ad60613d8a323ab4ae2e2db9.jpg)
Was your response this succinct when the US Army first announced the courageous death f Pat Tillman? No matter. These men, and all like them, died in a foreign land fighting for their own countries ideals. The y are all heroes none may ever match, not just the ones in US colors, nor the ones with great stories.I do not know who Pat Tillman is. I am sure that the Russian soldier was brave and died serving his country. Regardless and without diminishing the soldier's sacrifice, the whole story sounds like a cockup was turned around into a propaganda event. Lets say that the military had the option to knock on the soldier's parents door and tell them they bombed the F ouf of their son by mistake and assure them that they will thoroughly investigate the incident , OR tell them he died in an epic display of heroism and as a model son of the nation. Which will they choose?
I do not know who Pat Tillman is. I am sure that the Russian soldier was brave and died serving his country. Regardless and without diminishing the soldier's sacrifice, the whole story sounds like a cockup was turned around into a propaganda event. Lets say that the military had the option to knock on the soldier's parents door and tell them they bombed the F ouf of their son by mistake and assure them that they will thoroughly investigate the incident , OR tell them he died in an epic display of heroism and as a model son of the nation. Which will they choose?
Either way, their son is dead. No reason to believe it didn't happen as reported. If it was altered to cover up friendly fire, at least his family's suffering won't be compounded by that knowledge.
Either way, their son is dead. No reason to believe it didn't happen as reported. If it was altered to cover up friendly fire, at least his family's suffering won't be compounded by that knowledge.
Isis were not being stopped until the Russians got involved :old::aok
Isis is now retreating :old:
So now everything that is reported should be taken at face value?
I applaud your efforts, but one cannot have a rational conversation with irrational people.
You're so right. Every single story I've ever read was taken at face value.
Exactly what information do you have which leads you to believe the story was fabricated?
Didn't take long to prove your point.
LOL!!!! No your rite. Its on the internet. Its about a "hero". There is absolutely no track record of false stories for anyone to question anything............
pipz you can question any story. but it wont change the facts.
I believe the point of questioning things is to find out the facts. Correct?
It sounds way cooler to question instead of seek facts.
Its not the same thing?
.. anything is possible in Palmyra;
Everyone is a hero to somebody. That doesn't excuse the excessive hero worship we give to soldiers.
japanese killed 100's of thousands. and yet plenty of heroic pilot threads are posted here.100's of thousand? More like several million bruv. Even more than the Nazis.
semp
Interesting assessment. Acknowledging their deeds doesn't constitute worship.
"Heroic courage isn't blind. It is intelligent and strong" - Yu - the 4th Virtue of Bushido
A person can do much worse than to look up to a person who exhibits evidence of selflessness, intelligence, and strength.
War is a necessity. As long as the human race cultivates multiple and conflicting cultures we will have war. Every major war ever fought has been a clash of cultures. At some point in the future, if we survive that long as a species, we will become a world spanning mono-culture where large scale conflicts are no longer necessary. Crackpots and terrorists will always exist, but not on the scale we see now.
Necessary or not, and I don't necessarily agree, it's still tragic. We should treat it and view it as such.
I'm not sure how the two are mutually exclusive. For that matter, most mature individuals respect the sacrifices of those who volunteer to do so in order that others do not have to endure those hardships. Perhaps there are some who misunderstand that respect for hero worship and thus we have threads like this one.
Necessary or not, and I don't necessarily agree, it's still tragic. We should treat it and view it as such.
I'm not sure how the two are mutually exclusive. For that matter, most mature individuals respect the sacrifices of those who volunteer to do so in order that others do not have to endure those hardships. Perhaps there are some who misunderstand that respect for hero worship and thus we have threads like this one.
Last year an estimated 55,000 people died because of the war in Syria. The bloodiest war in a long time. So far today 113,000 people have died from all causes. So far this year 17,000,000 people have died from all causes. Every single of those deaths is a tragedy to someone. You need some perspective.
Last year an estimated 55,000 people died because of the war in Syria. The bloodiest war in a long time. So far today 113,000 people have died from all causes. So far this year 17,000,000 people have died from all causes. Every single of those deaths is a tragedy to someone. You need some perspective.
Estimated deaths in the Syrian war is now close to 500.000 with around 90% killed by the regime...
But then you have to completely ignore the suffering of other people caused by these soldiers , in this case is Russia helping Assad bombing the crap out of his people because they were rude enough to demand democracy.
But I guess the suffering of the Syrian people is irrelevant..
Not so relevant to compare wars and car accidents as there are few states or organizations that kills people on the roads to achieve a political goal...
That said, if given the choice I'd choose war over cancer every time.
1) Who are "these soldiers"?
2) There is a ongoing power struggle between many factions in Syria. Only a small sub set of them are "rude enough to demand democracy"
Seriously? What kind of childish remark is this?
Then i would say that you have no idea of what you are talking about.
I have a very good idea of what I'm talking about. In both cases.
I believe the point of questioning things is to find out the facts. Correct?
I have still not met a single person with experience of war that would make that choice.
Well you have now... Or technically we haven't actually met so maybe not. I've watched people die in war. People I cared about. And I've watched people die of cancer. People I cared about. I wouldn't wish cancer on my worst enemy.
Well you have now... Or technically we haven't actually met so maybe not. I've watched people die in war. People I cared about. And I've watched people die of cancer. People I cared about. I wouldn't wish cancer on my worst enemy.
I'm trying to ascertain if he has an informed opinion.
Does being shelled every other day count?
In any case I'd rather watch a loved one get blasted by a barrel bomb than watch the person being tortured by her own body for six months while begging me to kill her. Years later and I still feel guilt and regret for not doing it. At least the suffering of my friends in Bosnia only lasted minutes.
I'm all for acknowledging their service, more to the point, rewarding it. Veteran care is one of the most odious things about the US.
However we also seem to have a romanticized/glorified view of war, and forget that in addition to the harm, both psychological and physical, it does to our own soldiers, but that their job is to kill other people.
Consider that Russian fellow who is alleged to have called an air strike on himself. The overwhelming response I've seen has been in the vein of "oh that's bad ass." "That dude is so American, even if he's Russian", *waves rock-hard freedom boner around*.
He's no less dead for his heroism, his wife is no less heartbroken. His daughter still will grow up without a daddy because we haven't been able to move past killing each other as an acceptable solution to disagreements.
Or Chris Kyle. Yes the man was an accomplished sniper. He 100% killed kids. Was it justifiable? Absolutely. But a kid died because of the circumstances he grew up in, and Kyle happened to get him in the scope. Which is a horrible tragedy.
Point being we, as a culture, take far too little time to really try and understand what exactly war is.
What's that mean?
Your last sentence is a tell. War is one of the most studied, explored, dissected, investigated, and written-about topics in the history of literature. SOME people romanticize war...some. Not all. You generalized ALL in your statement and that is simply incorrect. There are millions of Chris Kyles with equally brutal realities. You need look no further than Carlos Hathcock and the bicycle full of AK's. Yes, another dead boy. He also HUNTED "Apache"...the code name for the most brutal sniper/interrogator the VC had...and it was a woman. You seem to be floating in a sea of poop and looking out of the boat and proclaiming your hatred for that one poop. That one poop makes you mad.
All of these things are the nature of mankind. Its unfortunate. Its reckless. Its unapologetic. Its criminal. Its sad. Its not ever going to stop. I don't say this because I like war, I say it because percentages are on my side that wars, struggles and conflicts will continue as long as the human element is top of the food chain. And, because it has never ceased in the history of mankind.
You're cherrypicking current events to support a position that is penalizing the players by hating the game. Given your logic on soldier recognition, cops should be marginalized because crime sucks? Firemen shouldn't be recognized because fires destroy lives and property? This list is endless...those fellas are heros dude. If for no other reason than they understood and volunteered to be called upon to catch bullets with their bodies in defense of their friends, allies and bystanders.
What's that mean?Means your jimmies are rustled.
Your last sentence is a tell. War is one of the most studied, explored, dissected, investigated, and written-about topics in the history of literature. SOME people romanticize war...some. Not all. You generalized ALL in your statement and that is simply incorrect. There are millions of Chris Kyles with equally brutal realities. You need look no further than Carlos Hathcock and the bicycle full of AK's. Yes, another dead boy. He also HUNTED "Apache"...the code name for the most brutal sniper/interrogator the VC had...and it was a woman. You seem to be floating in a sea of poop and looking out of the boat and proclaiming your hatred for that one poop. That one poop makes you mad.
All of these things are the nature of mankind. Its unfortunate. Its reckless. Its unapologetic. Its criminal. Its sad. Its not ever going to stop. I don't say this because I like war, I say it because percentages are on my side that wars, struggles and conflicts will continue as long as the human element is top of the food chain. And, because it has never ceased in the history of mankind.
You're cherrypicking current events to support a position that is penalizing the players by hating the game. Given your logic on soldier recognition, cops should be marginalized because crime sucks? Firemen shouldn't be recognized because fires destroy lives and property? This list is endless...those fellas are heros dude. If for no other reason than they understood and volunteered to be called upon to catch bullets with their bodies in defense of their friends, allies and bystanders.
You're getting a bit loose with the analogies there. Firefighters jobs isn't to burn down other people's houses. Police don't combat crime being criminals (for the most part). If you go the doctor route, doctors don't fight cancer by giving you more cancer in the hopes that it'll drive off the first cancer.
That's just politically correct bullcrap spread by leftist apologists. ISIS/Daesh was established in 1999 in Jordan under the name of Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad, and has grown ever since. Daesh isn't one single organization, but an alliance of jihadist groups. In Mali for example the French are fighting Al-Mourabitoun, Ansar al-Sharia, Ansar Dine, AQIM, Boko Haram, Macina Liberation Front, and MOJWA.
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/Danger_Political_Thread_zpsf1x99dmp.png)
Saying that the invasion of Iraq created ISIS is just ignorant. Many inmates from Camp Bucca may have joined ISIS later on, but that is an entirely different matter. ISIS was founded in 1999 by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi under the name of Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad. Literally "The Organisation of Monotheism and Jihad".
That's just politically correct bullcrap spread by leftist apologists. ISIS/Daesh was established in 1999 in Jordan under the name of Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad, and has grown ever since. Daesh isn't one single organization, but an alliance of jihadist groups. In Mali for example the French are fighting Al-Mourabitoun, Ansar al-Sharia, Ansar Dine, AQIM, Boko Haram, Macina Liberation Front, and MOJWA.
didnt the cia funded a few of the terrorists organizations at the begining?
semp
If you don't have a job all the above is hot air :old:
Points of view are over rated for the masses
Only the good bad guys, or is it bad good guys?
ISIS was the result of a fusion of the Iraqi Al Quaida and the remains of the Baath party, the command structure of the Ex-Saddam regime allowed The extremism to become efficient on a previously unseen scale. Nothing of this would have happen Iraq hadnt been invaded. Saddam would not have allowed a group like AQ to gain any sort of power. The invasion created an environment that made it possible for a group like ISIS to be created and gain power, like it or not. It was not the intention but it was the unexpected side effect.
Except that you are wrong. Do some research on the subject.
Except that you are wrong. Do some research on the subject.
My research was summarized in my post. Let me know if you need anything else
Well.. Research usually means that there are some kind of sources that the conclusions are based on. There are a lot of evidence that support my claim (for ex the link I posted earlier) but you maybe think that the scores of Ex-saddam folks among the higher ranks of ISIS is a pure coincident?
http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/mideast-crisis-iraq-islamicstate/
http://uk.businessinsider.com/r-saddams-former-army-is-secret-of-baghdadis-success-2015-6?r=US&IR=T
https://theintercept.com/2015/06/03/isis-forces-exbaathist-saddam-loyalists/
If not for the Invasion of Iraq there had been no ISIS, we are simply facing the consequences of our bad decisions.
putting the blame on the withdrawal is pretty much saying that the better option was a permanent bloody occupation of Iraq, which most rational minds know was unsustainable.
If not for the invasion Saddam and Baath party would most likely still have been in power and their commanders would not have join ISIS... The Invasion started the chain of events that eventually have led to the present situation. Does that mean that everything is US fault? No - There are still a lot of other factors in this.
My point was still only to use it as an example of how wars can have unintended consequences but obviously people were too butthurt by it...
But there would still have been no uprising in 2004 without the invasion.
The invasion created a security vacuum in Iraq that were used by Al-Zarqawi to start a wave of terror in order to divide Shias and Sunnis. This was largely suppressed by 'the surge' were most of the leadership were killed or captured, However the captured AQ leadership were allowed to merge inside the prison camps and was then put back on the streets. So even though you are right that the change of US policy was an important factor it still not the point. Point is that the Invasion led to a number of problem that were both unforeseen and unintended by the US.
There are several examples of how a regime like Saddam's can suppress internal conflicts and were it boils over once the regime falls. It did happen in Yugoslavia and it was what happened in Iraq. The invasion opened the Pandora's box. The Surge almost closed the box again but then came the withdrawal..
Again: I only said that the invasion was the event that started the chain of event, if the right decisions had been made afterwards, and especially after 2009 the situation would most likely have been fundamentally different.
But it seems like we do agree on the vital parts so I think this is the time to end the debate. :salute
I believe he's talking about the large present influence of Daesh, which did not exist prior to the war. And putting the blame on the withdrawal is pretty much saying that the better option was a permanent bloody occupation of Iraq, which most rational minds know was unsustainable. I can't believe I got dragged into another political argument. Oy. :(
No need to speculate. There is no reason to believe that a continued US presence amounting to an occupation or "transitional assistance group" in Iraq would have resulted in anything different than a US occupation of Japan or Germany for 40+years.
There's every reason to believe such. Germany and Japan didn't have radical insurgents like Iraq. The correlation you're better off using is Vietnam. Many predicted the problems the world is now experiencing due to such an invasion prior to its undertaking. Now, I'm leaving Palmyra before the bombs drop. ;)
Sure, there is a very remote relationship if you ignore the observable fact that the Bathist/Sunni uprising in Iraq of 2004-2009 was quelled by the Awakening and was a non factor until the reconciliation process championed by the US was abandoned by a change in US policy. If there was a continued uprising without the multi year reversal you could make a more rational correlation but that is not there.
No one is butthurt by your statements. They are simply shallow and myopic and others are pointing out facts that illustrate that.
P.S. Thank you Skuzzy for not nuking the thread. I appreciate a good debate and reasoned discourse.
How come this political thread is not closed?
How come this reasoned discussion about global events is not closed?
Perhaps there has been a turn at HTC and we will see more reasoned discussions that breath life into this community. It would be great to have that back.
You have an exaggerated sense of 'life' and 'death' on a bull board. :blank:
Calm down, Francis.
:rofl
I have more money than you :old:
habanero urethra traffic
Sounds like a rather painful hobby.