Post by: FX1 on April 12, 2016, 02:09:31 PM
Post by: Wiley on April 12, 2016, 02:27:11 PM
Wiley.
Post by: puller on April 12, 2016, 02:32:19 PM
Fly something fast enough to catch them, the problem goes away.
Wiley.
This...
Post by: Greebo on April 12, 2016, 02:57:56 PM
I cant stand them.. Timid flying taken to a new level. I am getting really bored seeing good pilots go to waste because of the desire to only pick or run.
This is a completely unfair characterisation of 51 and 190 pilots.....they also vulch.
Post by: DubiousKB on April 12, 2016, 03:13:10 PM
Post by: Zoney on April 12, 2016, 03:30:09 PM
Post by: Bruv119 on April 12, 2016, 03:33:08 PM
Post by: fudgums on April 12, 2016, 04:03:41 PM
Talk about old times. :old:
Post by: JunkyII on April 12, 2016, 04:12:36 PM
I cant stand them.. Timid flying taken to a new level. I am getting really bored seeing good pilots go to waste because of the desire to only pick or run.You fly F4Us so I can't take your comments seriously about timid pilots because unfortunately those are the ones who come across the most timid to me. Not a jab at you personally, don't know how you fly, just my experience with most F4U pilots.
don't forget the LA7, 109K4 and Yak-3 pilots...Been waiting for the Yak 3 to get brought up in a discussion like this :devil
If you fly a Yak-3....I assume you think your good but don't notice the plane doing all the work for you :devil
Post by: JunkyII on April 12, 2016, 04:13:26 PM
That an old luftmorder squad emblem?There were more squeekers back then :aok
Talk about old times. :old:
Post by: pipz on April 12, 2016, 04:24:41 PM
This is a completely unfair characterisation of 51 and 190 pilots.....they also vulch.
Every now and again I throw a HO in there as well for good measure! :old:
Post by: Wiley on April 12, 2016, 04:25:53 PM
If you fly a Yak-3....I assume you think your good but don't notice the plane doing all the work for you :devil
Pfft. The plane does all the work for everybody, or are you out there flapping your arms and spitting at your opponents?
Wiley.
Post by: JunkyII on April 12, 2016, 05:20:32 PM
Pfft. The plane does all the work for everybody, or are you out there flapping your arms and spitting at your opponents?True! But I stand by my statement Yak 3 pilots aren't good...they are just in a good plane :devil
Wiley.
Post by: caldera on April 12, 2016, 05:26:49 PM
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 12, 2016, 08:53:42 PM
You fly F4Us so I can't take your comments seriously about timid pilots because unfortunately those are the ones who come across the most timid to me. Not a jab at you personally, don't know how you fly, just my experience with most F4U pilots.
I hope people think that when I come across them so they go lax in their turns and forget about how well it can really turn ;)
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 12, 2016, 08:55:41 PM
LEARN SOME DEFENSE MOVES DAMNIT.
The fight is sooo boring if you run away all the time.
Post by: bozon on April 13, 2016, 02:12:00 AM
I cant stand them.. Timid flying taken to a new level. I am getting really bored seeing good pilots go to waste because of the desire to only pick or run.You think they are bad? How about the brewster and zeke pilots? they keep turning all the time. How about they fly straight for a bit and pick up some speed that is higher than my stall speed so we can have a fight?
the 190s were never meant to turn. Kurt Tank designed them to take off from a rear field, attack the bomber stream, then land at a forward base directly ahead, get rotated on the far end of the runway 180 degrees by the ground crew, take off again to attack the bombers as they are flying back, and land at its field of origin.
Post by: Kovel on April 13, 2016, 02:39:29 AM
Post by: FX1 on April 13, 2016, 06:23:17 AM
Post by: GScholz on April 13, 2016, 06:35:05 AM
Kurt Tank designed them to take off from a rear field, attack the bomber stream, then land at a forward base directly ahead, get rotated on the far end of the runway 180 degrees by the ground crew, take off again to attack the bombers as they are flying back, and land at its field of origin.
Tank did no such thing. The bomber stream didn't exist in 1937 when he started designing the 190.
Post by: Crash Orange on April 13, 2016, 07:13:02 AM
the 190s were never meant to turn. Kurt Tank designed them to take off from a rear field, attack the bomber stream, then land at a forward base directly ahead, get rotated on the far end of the runway 180 degrees by the ground crew, take off again to attack the bombers as they are flying back, and land at its field of origin.
What did they do when the wind was blowing the wrong way?
Post by: Kovel on April 13, 2016, 09:14:39 AM
I have no issues with LA7 or Yaks. I always run across good pilots in either one. Long close in fights unlike the 51's need for a 5k separation after each pass. Just my observation of the current game play in both planes.
Fly a 190 for a month and fight against planes you usually fly (La7, yak3, Spit16, F4U4)and be greedy. Tell us what happens.
Post by: FX1 on April 13, 2016, 10:47:11 AM
Post by: shift8 on April 13, 2016, 11:11:50 AM
The biggest thing that irritates me about this is that whenever this is said it seems to be ignored that it is all relative. Exactly when is running acceptable? And Why on earth should I engage in a dogfight with a plane that has a much better rate or radius when I can choose to fly to my planes strengths? TBH: If you dont want people to run you may as well just remove every plane except the zero from the game, as nothing can out turn it and almost anything can run from it.
Can you imagine how silly it would be of me to complain from my P-51 or 190 that "all those brew pilots do is turn! How dare they use their performance against me!"
What you are basically asking for is that pilots of faster but less agile planes do one of two things:A-only fly planes that can turn or B-commit suicide by mixing it up on purpose when they are flying the wrong plane for it.
PS: just because someone picks and runs DOESN'T meant they dont know how to mix it up.
Post by: shift8 on April 13, 2016, 11:22:43 AM
What I would argue is that those of you have disdain for people fast planes MAY be missing some fundamentals when it comes to general air combat. In both AH and in real life, large furballs over 3x3 are more or less a crap shoot. Pilot skills rapidly becomes less and less of a factor the more planes you add into the mix. Those left standing at the end are more the result of luck then good BFM. If you dont believe me on this, just as the USAF, which still trains this today. Same thing happened in ww2.
Being high and fast can be controlled. Making smart choices about how you engage and when you engage CAN be controlled. A 15 plane mix up is just chaos. At that point even proper team work is almost completely gone. The only thing matters is just who accidentally ends up on whose six and manages to fire before some other chump in turn blasts him....and so on and so forth. For this reason, dogfights should be avoided by ALL AIRCRAFT. One you engage you are generally committed. If someone else shows up you are screwed if both enemy pilots know what they are doing. The dogfight is a last resort when you either have no other option or you have made a mistake that landed you there. In other words, if you are fur-balling on purpose: you are doing it wrong.
PS: if you furball for fun by all means do whatever makes you happy. This is a game after all, and even I admit dog fighting is fun. Im not arguing you cant play the game how you like.
Post by: FX1 on April 13, 2016, 11:40:32 AM
Post by: shift8 on April 13, 2016, 11:57:27 AM
The dueling server is more suited to the sort of Co-E fights people seem to desire. In the MA, people should be flying to exploit every ounce of advantage they can wriggle from whatever air frame they can choose.
Post by: BuckShot on April 13, 2016, 12:03:38 PM
I turn from runners and look for another fight. If they come back, I feighn an attack and then watch them run again.
Post by: Randy1 on April 13, 2016, 12:05:07 PM
One key to avoiding some of these kind of players is checking the status of town. Vulchers like the one above are rarely interested in base capture, just in their score. If the town is up most likely it is a points gathering, vulch.
Post by: shift8 on April 13, 2016, 12:09:24 PM
Hmmmm, run much?
I turn from runners and look for another fight. If they come back, I feighn an attack and then watch them run again.
So I guess in your view we should just eliminate all but the tightest turning planes? Or perhaps you think I should just kill myself by dog fighting your spit 16 with a 190?
Post by: shift8 on April 13, 2016, 12:12:10 PM
I watched a particular 190 player last night. It was quite funny. He set above the field at a safe altitude while his comrades took the risk to deack the field. Once deacked he vulched. Then, when their fighter cap started to collapse, he ran home to land his kills leaving his comrades to be chewed up.
One key to avoiding some of these kind of players is checking the status of town. Vulchers like the one above are rarely interested in base capture, just in their score. If the town is up most likely it is a points gathering, vulch.
I will not argue that vulching requires skill. That 190 pilot should have covered his friends if the situation allowed for it.
But complaining about vulching is silly in the MA. The MA is a virtuallized air war. Wrecking airbases is part of war. Why on earth would you allow enemy planes to take off when your trying to cap a base?
Post by: caldera on April 13, 2016, 03:25:51 PM
I will not argue that vulching requires skill. That 190 pilot should have covered his friends if the situation allowed for it.
But complaining about vulching is silly in the MA. The MA is a virtuallized air war. Wrecking airbases is part of war. Why on earth would you allow enemy planes to take off when your trying to cap a base?
Oh, I don't know, maybe to have some sort of a fight?
Post by: FX1 on April 13, 2016, 03:27:29 PM
So I guess in your view we should just eliminate all but the tightest turning planes? Or perhaps you think I should just kill myself by dog fighting your spit 16 with a 190?
Up a turning plane when the fight becomes appropriate.
Post by: shift8 on April 13, 2016, 03:50:49 PM
Oh, I don't know, maybe to have some sort of a fight?
And I would want to do this why? The objective is to win. If you want a more even fight, you should man ack or take off from another field. If you take off from a field that is already screwed, you need to accept that you are choosing to fight from a disadvantage instead of complaining for other players to behave stupidly for your benefit.... :rofl
Post by: shift8 on April 13, 2016, 03:58:03 PM
Up a turning plane when the fight becomes appropriate.
If I am still able to up, and extending can still be used to my advantage....then the fight is still viable from a energy fighter. If the fight is right over the field and the enemy has the clear advantage: then its time to cut our losses and up from somewhere else to retake the high ground. The only time I can think of where a turn oriented fighter would be appropriate is if the fight as already gone very very south. If that is the case, then it makes more sense to take off from somewhere else and try to retake the initiative. Reinforcing failure just leads to more failure. And a strong argument could still be made that taking off in a fast fighter would still be better since at least then I might be able to extend out and away instead of orbiting my field waiting to be vulched.
ALSO: What is and is not a E fighter is completely relative. If I up in a Spit 16 or spit 9 I am still a E fighter vs some fighters. This will be true unless were all in Brews or Zeros. Or all in the same plane. So even If I dont pick a 190 or a 51 or a Spit 14, or etc it really doesnt change anything. Your just moving the goalposts. If we all flew spit 9s and there were no 51's everyone flying something slower would just start whining about how the "Run-Spit" is such a troll plane.
Post by: The Fugitive on April 13, 2016, 04:05:24 PM
And I would want to do this why? The objective is to win. If you want a more even fight, you should man ack or take off from another field. If you take off from a field that is already screwed, you need to accept that you are choosing to fight from a disadvantage instead of complaining for other players to behave stupidly for your benefit.... :rofl
For many the objective is to fight. Check out this film called 51lulz. He doesn't use a bunch of alt, nor does he "extend" but while flying close to an enemy base he bags a bunch of kills. This is how you CAN fly a pony
http://speedy.sh/tQRa3/51lulz.ahf
Post by: caldera on April 13, 2016, 04:07:07 PM
And I would want to do this why? The objective is to win. If you want a more even fight, you should man ack or take off from another field. If you take off from a field that is already screwed, you need to accept that you are choosing to fight from a disadvantage instead of complaining for other players to behave stupidly for your benefit.... :rofl
I wasn't complaining about anything, but trying to point out the purpose of the game is not to win, but to fight.
Post by: shift8 on April 13, 2016, 04:14:33 PM
For many the objective is to fight. Check out this film called 51lulz. He doesn't use a bunch of alt, nor does he "extend" but while flying close to an enemy base he bags a bunch of kills. This is how you CAN fly a pony
http://speedy.sh/tQRa3/51lulz.ahf
He flew well. But that only works when you have bad opponents. Much like how you can win a 1v2 if you are better.
With enough relative skill, you can get away with anything. I've won sea level duels with Ki-84's in a P-51 in the DA that started CO-E etc. Had my opponent been as good as I was, that would have been impossible. PART of skill is knowing when to fight and how to fight in a given plane vs a given plane. It is outright foolish to hedge your bets that the person flying the other fighter will fly badly and allow you to make up the difference. That is a last resort.
Post by: shift8 on April 13, 2016, 04:17:03 PM
I wasn't complaining about anything, but trying to point out the purpose of the game is not to win, but to fight.
Yes but the purpose of any fight is to WIN. If I am flying a plane that does not turn as well as yours, I am a retard if I intentionally try to turn fight you as my first option.
Post by: The Fugitive on April 13, 2016, 04:18:03 PM
The point is you can be aggressive in ANY play. They are, after all, free when and if you should loose one. :aok
Post by: caldera on April 13, 2016, 04:22:35 PM
Yes but the purpose of any fight is to WIN. If I am flying a plane that does not turn as well as yours, I am a retard if I intentionally try to turn fight you as my first option.
Obviously you want to win, but there isn't much value to a one-sided fight. Winning in a fight where the outcome is occasionally in doubt is much more satisfying, as is the fight itself.
Post by: shift8 on April 13, 2016, 04:27:57 PM
LOL!!! at this time, there are very few "good" pilots.
The point is you can be aggressive in ANY play. They are, after all, free when and if you should loose one. :aok
lol what? So in what universe is someone allowed to fly a fast fighter in the manner in which they were IRL? I'm not on your schedule. People fly this game for different reasons. What I find fun in AH is to fly planes in a historical and smart manner. Im not here to give you a even or fair fight. Its up to you to get one for yourself.
So far as I'm concerned you can fly the game however you like. I'm not going to ridicule you outside of discussion of what is and is not effective tactics. So why is it that the turners cant accept that others dont play the game to let them win?
And while the plane is free, my time isnt. I want to fly certain planes because I like them for various reasons. I am going to fly those planes in the manner I think they do best. My goal is to kill you. Not to make your day.
Post by: shift8 on April 13, 2016, 04:33:01 PM
Obviously you want to win, but there isn't much value to a one-sided fight. Winning in a fight where the outcome is occasionally in doubt is much more satisfying, as is the fight itself.
Every single air battle is one sided from a aircraft perspective unless we are in the same plane.
I do not wish to intentionally engage a far superior turn fighter any more so that you desire to engage a fighter that has altitude on you. And in the exact same manner that I might prevail over such fighter(by being better) you also could prevail over a E fighter if you trick him into losing his advantage.
Post by: caldera on April 13, 2016, 04:45:57 PM
Every single air battle is one sided from a aircraft perspective unless we are in the same plane.
I do not wish to intentionally engage a far superior turn fighter any more so that you desire to engage a fighter that has altitude on you. And in the exact same manner that I might prevail over such fighter(by being better) you also could prevail over a E fighter if you trick him into losing his advantage.
We have different philosophies then. Sometimes I will run from a no-win scenario, but am game for any fight that I think there is even a small chance of success.
Post by: Zoney on April 13, 2016, 04:52:14 PM
TA152 uber alles !
Post by: shift8 on April 13, 2016, 04:55:34 PM
We have different philosophies then. Sometimes I will run from a no-win scenario, but am game for any fight that I think there is even a small chance of success.
Yes, clearly we do. The thing that bugs me here is the rather mean spirited derision from the other camp. I am more than content to let you fly however you like. My point in coming into this discussion was and is not to make anyone fly their plane differently. Its one thing to have tactical disagreements. It another thing entirely to insinuate that one groups is somehow being dishonorable or cowardly because they choose to fly the planes in a different manner most of the time. This is what I don't like.
We all have fun in different ways. For some, the thrill of a fight, regardless of the odds is what makes them happy. That is perfectly fine. For myself and people like me, I tend to lean towards having fun by flying planes is the most militarily realistic manner possible. That is also Fine.
I understand the frustration tactically. I am certain many a Japanese pilot was unhappy when a Corsair refused to turn with him. But there is a difference between a disagreement on what is the most fun way to play a game and the sort of disdain and rubbish that has been posited in this thread and others.
A person is not a Jerk because they don't want to play the game your way.
Post by: Zoney on April 13, 2016, 05:03:16 PM
:salute
Post by: shift8 on April 13, 2016, 05:25:24 PM
Post by: HL117 on April 13, 2016, 06:33:16 PM
I will not argue that vulching requires skill. That 190 pilot should have covered his friends if the situation allowed for it.Always good to back off a little, let them up a bit so fun can be had by all
But complaining about vulching is silly in the MA. The MA is a virtuallized air war. Wrecking airbases is part of war. Why on earth would you allow enemy planes to take off when your trying to cap a base?
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Post by: BuckShot on April 13, 2016, 07:05:23 PM
So I guess in your view we should just eliminate all but the tightest turning planes? Or perhaps you think I should just kill myself by dog fighting your spit 16 with a 190?
I didn't say that, and I don't fly the spit 16. I think running from fights is lame, that's all. Like I said, I let them run and then go find a fun fight for myself.
You can stay in the fight and stay fast.
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 13, 2016, 07:55:29 PM
Yes, clearly we do. The thing that bugs me here is the rather mean spirited derision from the other camp. I am more than content to let you fly however you like. My point in coming into this discussion was and is not to make anyone fly their plane differently. Its one thing to have tactical disagreements. It another thing entirely to insinuate that one groups is somehow being dishonorable or cowardly because they choose to fly the planes in a different manner most of the time. This is what I don't like.
We all have fun in different ways. For some, the thrill of a fight, regardless of the odds is what makes them happy. That is perfectly fine. For myself and people like me, I tend to lean towards having fun by flying planes is the most militarily realistic manner possible. That is also Fine.
I understand the frustration tactically. I am certain many a Japanese pilot was unhappy when a Corsair refused to turn with him. But there is a difference between a disagreement on what is the most fun way to play a game and the sort of disdain and rubbish that has been posited in this thread and others.
A person is not a Jerk because they don't want to play the game your way.
Let me bug in here for a sec. Based on many years of experience and performing the "staying alive in realistic mode", most people who run from fights don't develop skills to fly that plane at its top performance. You have to know defensive maneuvers. The speed of an aircraft has much more advantage than the plane who can turn great. The American planes were built on this principle. They also happen to be pretty maneuverable. It's too bad most P51 pilots don't try to turn with it more often because they are missing out on a lot more kills. Being able to extend away from any fight or furball is the biggest advantage any plane can have. That is why you don't see many people in Mid war planes because it's very difficult to escape the fight. Without learning defense tactics your only way to get kills is from the advantage. If you don't learn how to get kills from the defense position, you are missing half your game, and thus aren't even flying the plane to its full potential. Once you understand that, you will begin to see why they are much easier to be successful in over other planes. In fact, if you flew a P51, Temp, 190D, to its full advantage you would almost never die.
Post by: The Fugitive on April 13, 2016, 08:07:10 PM
lol what? So in what universe is someone allowed to fly a fast fighter in the manner in which they were IRL? I'm not on your schedule. People fly this game for different reasons. What I find fun in AH is to fly planes in a historical and smart manner. Im not here to give you a even or fair fight. Its up to you to get one for yourself.
So far as I'm concerned you can fly the game however you like. I'm not going to ridicule you outside of discussion of what is and is not effective tactics. So why is it that the turners cant accept that others dont play the game to let them win?
And while the plane is free, my time isnt. I want to fly certain planes because I like them for various reasons. I am going to fly those planes in the manner I think they do best. My goal is to kill you. Not to make your day.
.... so why are you wasting your time extending and or running from an even or uneven fight?
What is your in game name? Have we fought?
I agree with caldera that we disagree on how to play the game. I don't know if any one is really saying one way is better than any other way when it comes to the game. I do however have trouble understanding why someone would play a combat game, and run away from combat the second things start getting turned against them.
Sure the Japanese pilots weren't unhappy when the hogs wouldn't turn with them, but those pilots weren't paying $15 a month to play a game designed around combat.
PS, I don't really expect you to give me your in game name.
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 13, 2016, 08:45:33 PM
He flew well. But that only works when you have bad opponents. Much like how you can win a 1v2 if you are better.
With enough relative skill, you can get away with anything. I've won sea level duels with Ki-84's in a P-51 in the DA that started CO-E etc. Had my opponent been as good as I was, that would have been impossible. PART of skill is knowing when to fight and how to fight in a given plane vs a given plane. It is outright foolish to hedge your bets that the person flying the other fighter will fly badly and allow you to make up the difference. That is a last resort.
Last tour I went 31-0 in a Ki84, 19-0 in a 109G14, and 9-0 in the Dhog. All the top K/Ds. You know, staying alive is more than just being able to run away. Being able to extend away is a great advantage but you will never get a lot of kills. Your time in AH will be very boring. If you don't learn how to set up manuevers, take risks and rope planes, learn how well your plane turns against every other plane, than you will always die by getting jumped and you will never get more than 3 kills per sortie. If you don't think, man I bet this guy behind me is a total noob, I can totally juke him and shoot him down, than you really aren't going to get better at the game.
Post by: Oldman731 on April 13, 2016, 09:19:50 PM
I want to fly certain planes because I like them for various reasons. I am going to fly those planes in the manner I think they do best. My goal is to kill you. Not to make your day.
...this just sounds so familiar...somehow...
- oldman
Post by: TonyJoey on April 14, 2016, 12:54:24 AM
Sure the Japanese pilots weren't happy when the hogs wouldn't turn with them, but those pilots weren't paying $15 a month to play a game designed around combat.
Aerial combat isn't just limited to angles fighting, as much as many wish it were. I don't know about you, but turning for the sake of turning when clearly outmatched in that department isn't necessarily fun to me and I'm sure many others. Sure, you can probably pull it off a few times against less-experienced guys, but anyone of similar skill level should have little trouble making quick work of you. For example, the OP complained about P51's and 190D's running while utilizing the Spit XVI as his main ride so far this tour. Either of the former planes stand little chance in any sort of protracted turning fight with a Spit XVI. Not sure there is really a valid complaint here. I'll stop using my advantage when you stop using yours.
Post by: DubiousKB on April 14, 2016, 11:21:34 AM
..... I do however have trouble understanding why someone would play a combat game, and run away from combat the second things start getting turned against them...
.. To win. To re-set their advantage. To ensure they aren't killed. To Pad their score. To RTB. To Return the second things start looking advantageous.
lol Stop using your aircraft's strengths and weaknesses!
Post by: JunkyII on April 15, 2016, 12:36:53 AM
I watched a particular 190 player last night. It was quite funny. He set above the field at a safe altitude while his comrades took the risk to deack the field. Once deacked he vulched. Then, when their fighter cap started to collapse, he ran home to land his kills leaving his comrades to be chewed up.Just so everyone knows....he's talking about me in a 190F8.
One key to avoiding some of these kind of players is checking the status of town. Vulchers like the one above are rarely interested in base capture, just in their score. If the town is up most likely it is a points gathering, vulch.
I killed 22+ guns and got 3 air to air kills one of them was Randy1 trying to sneak his A20 up on my F8 as I deacked, would have let you go but you tried to kill me...oh I also killed dar and a troop barracks....
Oh and just last week I was low to his P38 and him and his buddy tried to 2v1 me....they both died terrible deaths, anyone want to see it??? Not impressive really, the flying looked like a 2 weeker trying to hump Jayro's leg.
Aerial combat isn't just limited to angles fighting, as much as many wish it were. I don't know about you, but turning for the sake of turning when clearly outmatched in that department isn't necessarily fun to me and I'm sure many others. Sure, you can probably pull it off a few times against less-experienced guys, but anyone of similar skill level should have little trouble making quick work of you. For example, the OP complained about P51's and 190D's running while utilizing the Spit XVI as his main ride so far this tour. Either of the former planes stand little chance in any sort of protracted turning fight with a Spit XVI. Not sure there is really a valid complaint here. I'll stop using my advantage when you stop using yours.Good Point but I'm still going to call you a Pony dweeb :aok
Post by: Zacherof on April 15, 2016, 02:39:00 PM
You have made a solid point. Their are some good pilots that i would love to have a 3 min white knuckle fight with. My goal is to have a good fight with every player in the game. I just dont see that with certain 51 and 190 pilots unless i force the fight with major alt advantage.but it's ok to run in a -4 :headscratch: ......
Post by: Arlo on April 15, 2016, 02:53:58 PM
Post by: pipz on April 15, 2016, 03:52:33 PM
:banana:
:aok
Post by: FX1 on April 15, 2016, 06:47:17 PM
Post by: save on April 16, 2016, 05:53:22 AM
After deed is done you have enough guns to down a number of fighters, if you keep advantage in speed/alt.
Many late war planes can do everyting better than the F8, except roll, and absorb damage (except Yak3 that accept 3x damage, with its total weight that is about equal as the armour itself of the F8)
Post by: pipz on April 16, 2016, 06:01:20 AM
Many late war planes can do everyting better than the F8, except roll, and absorb damage (except Yak3 that accept 3x damage, with its total weight that is about equal as the armour itself of the F8)
Are you saying the Yak3 needs to be able to absorb more damage? What is your convergence set at ? :old: :D
Post by: JunkyII on April 16, 2016, 11:16:15 AM
I found the F8 is the only attack that can safely kill 12 acks plus put a 500 kilo bomb on something juicy outside ack reach.Hahaha so true.
After deed is done you have enough guns to down a number of fighters, if you keep advantage in speed/alt.
Many late war planes can do everyting better than the F8, except roll, and absorb damage (except Yak3 that accept 3x damage, with its total weight that is about equal as the armour itself of the F8)
Post by: mthrockmor on April 16, 2016, 11:51:55 AM
Post by: Changeup on April 16, 2016, 01:53:30 PM
Its all about the pilot, not the plane.
When complaining about running, one must take into account the pilot, not the plane. I will pick on TJ for illustration purposes. I would never call him a runner no matter what plane he's in because he can fly any plane in the DA and win 95% of the fights slow or fast against 99% of the players of this game (if hes not rusty, etc etc etc). There is a giant group of pilots in this category, active or not active and to call them runners is laughable and dweebish.
The acid test for openly accusing someone of running should be as follows: (Please verify the validity of this test with good sticks, TJ, CMEX, JUNKY, KAPPA etc.) Here goes:
Before calling someone in any plane a runner, ask yourself this question:
"If I go to the DA with this person in the plane he's flying, will I get crushed?" If the answer is yes, please say nothing because chances are we will make fun of you for trying to make fun of someone that pwns you. If the answer is no, then follow up with the next test question:
"If I fly other planes in the DA against him will I get crushed?" (removing the statistical outlier for accuracy). If the answer is yes, please fold your hand. If the answer is no, please troll this person on 200 unmercifully for being a runner. If you don't know if you can beat him, you best have a thick skin and take your best shot.
Now you know why some people shade. So that they can get ridiculed on 200 and then go pound arse in the DA. Simple stuff :bolt:
Post by: BigR on April 16, 2016, 02:20:02 PM
The only guys that really bug me are the ones who make a few crappy passes at you, blow their E and then run to friends. As soon as the friends engage you, here he comes! We are all guilty of this every once in a while but there are people who have made it into an art form to rack up kills. There are a couple Mustang guys who do this. Its just so desperate.
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 16, 2016, 03:59:45 PM
All great points really. cept one thing:
Its all about the pilot, not the plane.
When complaining about running, one must take into account the pilot, not the plane. I will pick on TJ for illustration purposes. I would never call him a runner no matter what plane he's in because he can fly any plane in the DA and win 95% of the fights slow or fast against 99% of the players of this game (if hes not rusty, etc etc etc). There is a giant group of pilots in this category, active or not active and to call them runners is laughable and dweebish.
The acid test for openly accusing someone of running should be as follows: (Please verify the validity of this test with good sticks, TJ, CMEX, JUNKY, KAPPA etc.) Here goes:
Before calling someone in any plane a runner, ask yourself this question:
"If I go to the DA with this person in the plane he's flying, will I get crushed?" If the answer is yes, please say nothing because chances are we will make fun of you for trying to make fun of someone that pwns you. If the answer is no, then follow up with the next test question:
"If I fly other planes in the DA against him will I get crushed?" (removing the statistical outlier for accuracy). If the answer is yes, please fold your hand. If the answer is no, please troll this person on 200 unmercifully for being a runner. If you don't know if you can beat him, you best have a thick skin and take your best shot.
Now you know why some people shade. So that they can get ridiculed on 200 and then go pound arse in the DA. Simple stuff :bolt:
That's true changeup, but just because they are good in the DA doesn't make them good in the MA. The skills of the pilot really do matter, but when it comes down to it, some planes are just better. The older planes in the MA really are more challenging to be successful in. There is a big difference in skill level consistently landing kills in a older plane that cannot get away from the hoard as easily. There is a different type of skill set in the MA compared to the DA. I'm not taking anything away from TJ because I know he is a great pilot. All I'm saying is that it is much harder to stay alive and be successful in planes that cannot always utilize a speed advantage. The P51 the best WW2 fighter for a reason. In a simulation like this, you can get a much better picture of how good the plane really was. While there are some great 1v1 sticks, I don't think they are as great in the MA. It's a different ball game. So just because they can beat you in any plane in the DA, doesn't mean they will be as successful in the MA in a older plane.
Post by: Changeup on April 17, 2016, 04:17:48 PM
That's true changeup, but just because they are good in the DA doesn't make them good in the MA. The skills of the pilot really do matter, but when it comes down to it, some planes are just better. The older planes in the MA really are more challenging to be successful in. There is a big difference in skill level consistently landing kills in a older plane that cannot get away from the hoard as easily. There is a different type of skill set in the MA compared to the DA. I'm not taking anything away from TJ because I know he is a great pilot. All I'm saying is that it is much harder to stay alive and be successful in planes that cannot always utilize a speed advantage. The P51 the best WW2 fighter for a reason. In a simulation like this, you can get a much better picture of how good the plane really was. While there are some great 1v1 sticks, I don't think they are as great in the MA. It's a different ball game. So just because they can beat you in any plane in the DA, doesn't mean they will be as successful in the MA in a older plane.
Please name 4 pilots who were as good as I described in the DA and runners in the MA. You are making an entirely DIFFERENT argument. Re-read my post as it applies to the OP. Not as it applies to comparing and contrasting your own opinion of older planes vs newer planes personal challenge.
I'll wait...
BigR is an excellent example of my point. Call him out as a scorepig or runner in the MA and he'll give you all you want in the DA...in any plane
Post by: JunkyII on April 17, 2016, 04:37:55 PM
That's true changeup, but just because they are good in the DA doesn't make them good in the MA. The skills of the pilot really do matter, but when it comes down to it, some planes are just better. The older planes in the MA really are more challenging to be successful in. There is a big difference in skill level consistently landing kills in a older plane that cannot get away from the hoard as easily. There is a different type of skill set in the MA compared to the DA. I'm not taking anything away from TJ because I know he is a great pilot. All I'm saying is that it is much harder to stay alive and be successful in planes that cannot always utilize a speed advantage. The P51 the best WW2 fighter for a reason. In a simulation like this, you can get a much better picture of how good the plane really was. While there are some great 1v1 sticks, I don't think they are as great in the MA. It's a different ball game. So just because they can beat you in any plane in the DA, doesn't mean they will be as successful in the MA in a older plane.Shining example of not good in the MA but can handle themselves in the DA...Me...I have terrible aim so I don't kill a lot that I should and it ends up coming back as a horde in the end.
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 18, 2016, 12:49:54 PM
Please name 4 pilots who were as good as I described in the DA and runners in the MA. You are making an entirely DIFFERENT argument. Re-read my post as it applies to the OP. Not as it applies to comparing and contrasting your own opinion of older planes vs newer planes personal challenge.
I'll wait...
BigR is an excellent example of my point. Call him out as a scorepig or runner in the MA and he'll give you all you want in the DA...in any plane
I'll disregard stating any names expect for one who is banned named Skyyr. He was the perfect example I am talking about. Sure, he could beat most players in the DA in any plane, but if you asked him to be as successful in the MA with a C205, as he was in the LA7 or 190D, he wouldn't even come close because he didn't develop his defensive skills well enough. It's not an opinion that older planes are more challenging in the MA, it's a fact, and statistics prove it. Certain planes can be very dangerous like the 190A5 or F4U1, but the majority of time people don't use or can't utilize their strengths in the MA because of so many other late war planes that can catch you and gang you. If the skill levels were even, the late war planes would show out most of the time. All I am saying is that there is little correlation that just because they are good in any plane in the DA, this means they are good in any plane in the MA. I am thinking of players like Grizz, kappa, Krup, Joachim, who actually do fit that profile, but it takes a lot of experience to reach that level.
Post by: Changeup on April 18, 2016, 11:32:52 PM
Shining example of not good in the MA but can handle themselves in the DA...Me...I have terrible aim so I don't kill a lot that I should and it ends up coming back as a horde in the end.
You don't care nearly as much in the MA Junky. Ive flown with you. A lot. You try harder in the DA because its personal. If you managed your SA in the MA as well as you do in the DA you would fair differently and you know it.
Post by: Changeup on April 18, 2016, 11:39:20 PM
I'll disregard stating any names expect for one who is banned named Skyyr. He was the perfect example I am talking about. Sure, he could beat most players in the DA in any plane, but if you asked him to be as successful in the MA with a C205, as he was in the LA7 or 190D, he wouldn't even come close because he didn't develop his defensive skills well enough. It's not an opinion that older planes are more challenging in the MA, it's a fact, and statistics prove it. Certain planes can be very dangerous like the 190A5 or F4U1, but the majority of time people don't use or can't utilize their strengths in the MA because of so many other late war planes that can catch you and gang you. If the skill levels were even, the late war planes would show out most of the time. All I am saying is that there is little correlation that just because they are good in any plane in the DA, this means they are good in any plane in the MA. I am thinking of players like Grizz, kappa, Krup, Joachim, who actually do fit that profile, but it takes a lot of experience to reach that level.
You named one. PM me the other three and make sure they actually care about the MA. You need look no further than guys like Lazer and Dodger. They "care" in the MA but not really and that is evidenced by watching them spend as much time flying into hordes as they do flying with hordes.
All Im saying is runners and scorebags are pilot issues, not plane issues. If they were forced into Early War gear, they simply wouldn't up unless they had a horde to fly with. See? P40s are easy to pick up kills in when your top is being managed by 51's and LA7s and your lower half is being managed by all the bottom feeding zeke drivers.
Its the pilot not the plane and I can prove it........................... ............................. ...who picks the plane? The pilot or the game? You can't run unless you choose a plane that can run.
Post by: save on April 19, 2016, 09:33:07 AM
A good pilot in a uber/perked ride do not not need to fly it, but for some, war is more fun when you have all the advantages.
It's the challenge that drives other players.
Other creative incetives other than perk points might be a good idea vs. flying these "best" planes.
It could be score per ENY to judge rank, or gunnery air to air (instead of increasing your hit% hitting a semi-or-stationary object)
Post by: GScholz on April 19, 2016, 10:11:44 AM
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 19, 2016, 12:15:19 PM
On the December 2015 tour, I pretty much only flew the P40N for a whole tour. I went 105-37. I actually figured I'd do better than that, but staying alive was so much harder. I couldn't simply run from 4 people chasing me. I had to fight out most of my fights and hopefully make it out alive. It was actually very challenging. The plane was so slow. It takes a lot more time to get the alt you need to be successful. Even when you have alt and dive on an enemy, you have to really make sure no one hops on your 6, and you really have to make sure you keep your E. It was incredibly much more difficult.
Same pilot, same skill, same arenas- the only difference was how much harder it was to stay alive in the P40 and how much more time it took to get kills, climb out, and conserve E.
Sure everyone once in a while you can land some kills and get help from higher friendlies who can save you. But if you fly it for a whole tour and fly the Temp for the whole tour, you will really understand how much easier it is to be successful in the Temp. The 190D is practically the same way.
In the real war. I'd have wanted to fly the F4U4 if it was similar to how it performs in AH. In AH, its fun to fly sometimes, but if it was my plane if choice, it would be too easy. If you fly a F4U4 to its full advantage you should never die, while if you flew a p40 to its full advantage, it would still have a very very difficult time in the late war MA with planes that utilize better advantages.
Post by: JunkyII on April 19, 2016, 02:18:48 PM
You don't care nearly as much in the MA Junky. Ive flown with you. A lot. You try harder in the DA because its personal. If you managed your SA in the MA as well as you do in the DA you would fair differently and you know it.I wouldn't say it's personal because I go in there with friends all the time just to have fun....think I like being good at the fight though....kind of like the groomsmen who sucks at helping the wedding get going smoothly...but hits the dance floor and sets the roof on fire :aok
Post by: JunkyII on April 19, 2016, 02:20:41 PM
You don't care nearly as much in the MA Junky. Ive flown with you. A lot. You try harder in the DA because its personal. If you managed your SA in the MA as well as you do in the DA you would fair differently and you know it.Oh and your absolutely right, I don't put hardly any focus into the MA until I'm locked in a prolonged fight...at which point I know I'm fighting one of the people I go to the DA with or fight in KOTH. :aok
Post by: caldera on April 19, 2016, 03:31:11 PM
If I only flew temps in the MA. It wouldn't be fun for anyone. It would even be boring for me. You know how I know that?. Tour January 2015 I spent the whole your flying a temp. I went like 227-7. I had to run away on multiple occasions, I couldn't turn fight like I wanted to, it was boring game play to always have the advantage. People couldn't catch me. I didn't need any defensive skills. All I had to do was make sure other planes didn't pick me. It was ridiculously easy. I know from experience that flying the fastest planes in the game give you the ultimate advantage.
On the December 2015 tour, I pretty much only flew the P40N for a whole tour. I went 105-37. I actually figured I'd do better than that, but staying alive was so much harder. I couldn't simply run from 4 people chasing me. I had to fight out most of my fights and hopefully make it out alive. It was actually very challenging. The plane was so slow. It takes a lot more time to get the alt you need to be successful. Even when you have alt and dive on an enemy, you have to really make sure no one hops on your 6, and you really have to make sure you keep your E. It was incredibly much more difficult.
Same pilot, same skill, same arenas- the only difference was how much harder it was to stay alive in the P40 and how much more time it took to get kills, climb out, and conserve E.
Sure everyone once in a while you can land some kills and get help from higher friendlies who can save you. But if you fly it for a whole tour and fly the Temp for the whole tour, you will really understand how much easier it is to be successful in the Temp. The 190D is practically the same way.
In the real war. I'd have wanted to fly the F4U4 if it was similar to how it performs in AH. In AH, its fun to fly sometimes, but if it was my plane if choice, it would be too easy. If you fly a F4U4 to its full advantage you should never die, while if you flew a p40 to its full advantage, it would still have a very very difficult time in the late war MA with planes that utilize better advantages.
The only exclusively P-40 tour for me was Tour 171: 205/55 in the P-40E. Since the remodel, I think the E is now the hardest to survive in.
No WEP really puts it at a disadvantage. The C model has weak guns, but dances much better and out climbs the E.
The N feels stronger than the E from the good old days. With the four gun package, it can really move. Well, for a P-40 at least. :)
Post by: Oldman731 on April 19, 2016, 08:32:32 PM
The N feels stronger than the E from the good old days. With the four gun package, it can really move. Well, for a P-40 at least.
The N with 4-gun, low-ammo-loadout is pretty close to our old E. Still a hoot to fly.
- oldman
Post by: Triton28 on April 21, 2016, 01:38:08 PM
Post by: MajWoody on April 22, 2016, 01:00:18 AM
For many the objective is to fight. Check out this film called 51lulz. He doesn't use a bunch of alt, nor does he "extend" but while flying close to an enemy base he bags a bunch of kills. This is how you CAN fly a ponyDumb question Fugi...... How do you download that film? I can't figure it out. :o
http://speedy.sh/tQRa3/51lulz.ahf
Post by: The Fugitive on April 22, 2016, 08:44:59 AM
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 22, 2016, 01:57:40 PM
The only exclusively P-40 tour for me was Tour 171: 205/55 in the P-40E. Since the remodel, I think the E is now the hardest to survive in.
No WEP really puts it at a disadvantage. The C model has weak guns, but dances much better and out climbs the E.
The N feels stronger than the E from the good old days. With the four gun package, it can really move. Well, for a P-40 at least. :)
Nice. The N model felt the best for me. I didn't really find the fights that I wanted to and thus wasnt able to get the kills I wanted but it was definitely still a challenge. Getting 15K takes about 15 minutes lol. It's a great flying plane actually and handles very well, it just needs a little more powerful engine.
Post by: MajWoody on April 22, 2016, 04:04:32 PM
Click on the link, and then click on the "slow download" button, unless you want to upgrade to the fast download for a small fee ;)Thanks Fugi :)
You should have posted this film on that thread a few weeks back about 50's being ineffective in the pony. :confused: