General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: DaveBB on September 06, 2016, 03:37:17 PM
Title: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: DaveBB on September 06, 2016, 03:37:17 PM
I've been listening to Dan Carlin's "Ghosts of the Ostfront". It covers the German invasion of the Soviet Union. I'm amazed at how brutal each side was not only to each other, but to civilians. The Germans, including (or perhaps especially) the Wehrmacht, simply annihilated civilians when they came upon villages. This was to make room for German colonists who were to move in to western Russia. The Soviets weren't much better. Remember the "Scorched earth policy"? When you burn down someones house in the dead of winter in Russia, it's pretty much a death sentence. In another documented case, the Soviets put German POWs on in a field, and made them lay down shoulder to shoulder. They then sprayed them with a water hose and froze them to death. They created an ice road out of their bodies in order to drive trucks over.
Anyhow, it's 4 hours long, and its free. Give it a listen. It'll definitely take any misplaced romanticism out of the Eastern Front.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: FLOOB on September 06, 2016, 05:37:58 PM
Yep, it's a myth that most of the atrocities commited by german forces were commited by the SS. In the documentary "Bugging Hitler's Soldiers" a luftwaffe solder talks about liquidating hospitals and raping girls in the east.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: Devil 505 on September 06, 2016, 07:08:42 PM
I just finished listening to part one, and it's fantastic.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: Ack-Ack on September 06, 2016, 07:44:00 PM
In his book, "A Stranger to Myself", Willy Peter Reese describes in detail some of the round ups he witnessed of Soviet citizens and so-called partisans. He describes mostly special SS teams going and in doing the "dirty work" while regular German army units surrounded the village/town and provided security and preventing any civilians from escaping. Gruesome stuff.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: Devil 505 on September 06, 2016, 08:00:19 PM
In his book, "A Stranger to Myself", Willy Peter Reese describes in detail some of the round ups he witnessed of Soviet citizens and so-called partisans. He describes mostly special SS teams going and in doing the "dirty work" while regular German army units surrounded the village/town and provided security and preventing any civilians from escaping. Gruesome stuff.
There's an anecdote in "A Higher Call" where an SS major attempted to recruit ground crew from Jg 3 for just that purpose. Jg 3 Kommodore, Gunther Lutzow, forbade his men from going with the SS, knowing what the SS would do.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: Curval on September 07, 2016, 01:35:37 PM
The Germans put prisoners they didn't execute into pens out in the open and left them to starve to death.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: mbailey on September 07, 2016, 02:16:24 PM
As a complete Hardcore History nut....don't just stop at Ghosts of the Ostfront.....All his Hardore History podcasts are amazing. Some you have to buy....but they are worth every penny....and they are dirt cheap...like $1.99 each. He does an amazing one on the Mongols called Wrath of the Khans (5 parts). One on WWI called Blueprint for Armageddon (6 parts) is crazy good.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: GScholz on September 07, 2016, 02:23:48 PM
The war between the two great European dictators on the Eastern Front was a conflict on a scale, both in numbers and brutality, the world had never seen before or since. The rest of WWII was but a sideshow. The Soviets and Germans lost more men in a single battle than the combined losses of all the western Allies of the whole war.
Everyone should watch this:
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: DaveBB on September 07, 2016, 04:40:37 PM
As a complete Hardcore History nut....don't just stop at Ghosts of the Ostfront.....All his Hardore History podcasts are amazing. Some you have to buy....but they are worth every penny....and they are dirt cheap...like $1.99 each. He does an amazing one on the Mongols called Wrath of the Khans (5 parts). One on WWI called Blueprint for Armageddon (6 parts) is crazy good.
Blueprint for Armageddon got me started. Then I listened to the one about the Spanish American War. But Ghosts of the Ostfront is by far the most haunting. It's sickening what the Germans did to the Soviets, and what the Soviets did in return to the Germans (and themselves). The scale of these atrocities is beyond comprehension.
I've seen 700,000 people once at a massive airshow/fireworks show in Louisville, KY. The Soviets lost that many people in a single operation.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: zack1234 on September 08, 2016, 11:41:34 AM
Don't mention the Spanish American war for goodness sake!
The Americans will fall over if they hear about that.
Mel Gibson knows very well the dirty redcoats are the only ones who are to blame.
Germans complaining about soviet behaviour is hilarious :old:
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: FLOOB on September 09, 2016, 12:01:05 AM
Zach, I'm not going to mention names but it's been brought to my attention by members of this board that they are tired of seeing you post in every thread without contributing anything. And that you post rambling nonsense, often derailing otherwise good threads and Serenity doesn't like it!
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: Easyscor on September 09, 2016, 01:02:48 AM
Well, he doesn't bother me, but then he's been on my ignore list since shortly after he joined the boards. One of only three or so on my list. Problem solved, at least for me. ;)
:cheers:
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: zack1234 on September 09, 2016, 01:07:04 AM
I have been triggered :old:
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: Easyscor on September 09, 2016, 01:40:00 AM
Why did I come in here to begin with? Oh, yeah. The presenter mentions Beevor's book, and I can recommend his book 'Stalingrad' over the podcast. There's another on Leningrad (St Petersberg) but I can't remember if Beevor was the author. Those accounts are both inspiring and horrendous.
The eastern front is the most interesting if you can stomach it. The German invasion rarely took prisoners and when they were routed, they paid the debt in kind, over and over again. I can see my younger self, or many of my compatriots at a younger age participating in the same kinds of acts. WWII ended two years before I was born but I was in primary school during Korea. Back then, in the school yard and at scout camp, tails were told purportedly about fathers and uncles discussing US soldiers killing anyone within range of their guns in both wars. Sure, probably fiction, but my generation went to Vietnam with those stories and the accompanying mindset.
:o
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: FLOOB on September 09, 2016, 01:58:16 AM
That's it Easycor is going on my ignore list. He's No. 23.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: Jag34 on September 09, 2016, 10:20:21 AM
I have read many books on WWII in my 52 years. But they were all during WWII. I read this book last year "After the Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation". This book made me look at people at a whole new light, I can not even find the words to say. I was station in Germany in the 80's and could never really understand why the Germans would do anything to keep the Russians out. Now I fully understand why. People told stories of trying to flea to the west after the war had ended is just horrendous. It goes in to detail of what they saw.
I am in no way condoning what the Germany military did, but for the civilians to go through this is just horrendous. This is a must read book for all of the WWII history buffs.
My 2 cents worth.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: GScholz on September 09, 2016, 10:39:10 AM
Indeed. It's one of those books you cannot read around meal time. You'll just lose your appetite. The carnage against Germans in post-war Europe was unrelenting, with rapes, crucifixions, hangings, forced starvation, and forced marches being widespread, with sex and age not being an impediment, and taking place with great enthusiasm by Russian, British, and American troops of occupation.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: zack1234 on September 09, 2016, 01:51:36 PM
British and American troops were doing what?
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: Jag34 on September 09, 2016, 02:12:28 PM
If you read the book, The American and British troops only did what would be considered little if nothing compared with the Russian's and all of the countries that were occupied did.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: GScholz on September 09, 2016, 02:24:45 PM
With the British and Americans we're talking about incidents. Though these incidents were quite numerous. With the Russians we're talking standard procedure.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: Mister Fork on September 09, 2016, 02:39:40 PM
With the British and Americans we're talking about incidents. Though these incidents were quite numerous. With the Russians we're talking standard procedure.
- for the Russians, it was under order from Stalin...
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: DaveBB on September 09, 2016, 03:37:52 PM
The vast majority of German troops captured by Russians died in Siberian prison camps. Shoot, the Americans handed over a tremendous amount of prisoners who had purposely surrendered to the West.
Patton was crazy, but there was some validity to his idea of using Germans to destroy the Soviets.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: Ack-Ack on September 09, 2016, 05:07:25 PM
The vast majority of German troops captured by Russians died in Siberian prison camps. Shoot, the Americans handed over a tremendous amount of prisoners who had purposely surrendered to the West.
Stalin insisted that we turn over German prisoners of war that had fought on the Eastern Front, for political reasons the Western Allies caved in and gave Stalin what he wanted. He also insisted that we turn over all Soviet prisoners of war we liberated, even those that sought political asylum. A vast number of those Soviet prisoners of war were then arrested by the NKVD (again under Stalin's orders) and sent to gulags.
What the Germans did to Soviet citizens during the invasion and later occupation of western Russia and Ukraine was terrible, the Soviets were no better in treating some of their own people from the Soviet villages/towns they liberated.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: zack1234 on September 10, 2016, 02:25:22 AM
The further east you go in Europe the more the societies base their thought processes on turnips and milk churns.
They are all still angry today and it's everyone else's fault that they did not invent credit cards and buying stuff when you are broke :old:
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: Curval on September 10, 2016, 06:59:30 AM
Why did I come in here to begin with? Oh, yeah. The presenter mentions Beevor's book, and I can recommend his book 'Stalingrad' over the podcast. There's another on Leningrad (St Petersberg) but I can't remember if Beevor was the author. Those accounts are both inspiring and horrendous.
Both brilliant books and he WAS the author on the Leningrad book.
I can't recommend Stalingrad enough, it gives the whole battle some perspective in a unique way.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: NatCigg on September 10, 2016, 09:21:03 AM
I hear more German citizens died after the war than during. Revenge :uhoh :bolt:
Don't start wars is the lesson then :)
With open borders in the UK we have gained immensely from Eastern European culture and all it has to offer :)
Blokes with square heads and Eastern European chicks who look like fashion models/serial killers :)
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: Curval on September 11, 2016, 08:57:12 AM
This is an awesome series. I have finished the first two episodes. Want to save the rest for when I travel. I am going to be all over the other series too.
Thanks for sharing this.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: DaveBB on September 11, 2016, 09:04:22 AM
No problem. I'm glad I stumbled across it.
The nature of the Eastern Front was sickening. One part I remember particularly is a German soldier saying "The villagers welcomed us in. They provided us with warm rooms and meals for the night. It was discouraging when orders came down the next day to shoot them all. We shot 80, including women and children".
The next one I recommend is his series on World War 1. Each episode is about 3.5 hours long, 6 total. It is pretty horrific too.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: Oldman731 on September 12, 2016, 12:32:01 AM
The vast majority of German troops captured by Russians died in Siberian prison camps
Now I'm scratching my head, trying to remember what happened to the millions of Soviet soldiers the Nazis captured in 1941...
Oldman
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: zack1234 on September 12, 2016, 01:37:57 AM
Your missing the gist of the thread.
The West is bad and Hitler was right.
Ex soviet block countries equate being third world countries due to the Russian influence.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: FLOOB on September 12, 2016, 08:15:01 AM
When I was a child in school they served milk in individual cartons. Later I would learn that Hitler drank milk. I don't know if this practice goes on nowadays.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: zack1234 on September 12, 2016, 10:36:11 AM
He had one spud :old:
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: Delirium on September 12, 2016, 02:29:33 PM
Thank you very much for the link the Ostfront podcast. I have truly enjoyed it!
Does anyone else have any shows that are worth listening to? I listen to the ones available for free on Spotify and Amazon currently, so I wouldn't be much help.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: FLOOB on September 13, 2016, 08:42:30 AM
The ricky gervais show on youtube.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: Rich46yo on September 13, 2016, 01:49:18 PM
Believe me what people do to people even here in America would turn most peoples stomachs.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: GScholz on September 13, 2016, 02:16:25 PM
German POW in Russia: 2 388 443 Released: 2 031 743 Died in captivity: 356 700
Those are Soviet figures and highly disputed. Just one minute of searching brought up this
Quote
The West German government set up a Commission headed by Erich Maschke to investigate the fate of German POW in the war, in its report of 1974 they found that 3,060,000 [16] German military personnel were taken prisoner by the USSR and that 1,094,250 died in captivity ( 549,360 from 1941-April 1945; 542,911 from May 1945 to June 1950 and 1,979 from July 1950 to 1955) [17] According to German historian Rüdiger Overmans ca. 3,000,000 POW were taken by the USSR, he put the "maximum" number of German POW deaths in Soviet hands at 1.0 million.[5] Based on his research, Overmans believes that the deaths of 363,000 POWs in Soviet captivity can be confirmed be the files of Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt), in addition he maintains that it seems entirely plausible, while not provable, that 700,000 German military personnel listed as missing actually died in Soviet custody.[4]
I'm inclined to believe the West German Commission.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: -aper- on September 15, 2016, 08:16:10 PM
I'm inclined to believe the West German Commission.
This is a joke. Their numbers are rough estimation of what they "believe". In Russia it is called "sucked from a finger".
"in addition he maintains that it seems entirely plausible, while not provable, that 700,000 German military personnel listed as missing actually died in Soviet custody"
Quite scientific approach. Huh ? I believe that these 700,000 missing simply died on battlefields mostly in 1944-1945. So what.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: Ack-Ack on September 15, 2016, 08:41:56 PM
German POW in Russia: 2 388 443 Released: 2 031 743 Died in captivity: 356 700
Out of the 91,000 Germans taken prisoner at Stalingrad, approximately only 6,000 survived to be repatriated to Germany. The treatment of PoWs by both the Germans and Soviets was atrocious and barbaric.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: -aper- on September 15, 2016, 09:00:47 PM
But how many would have survived had the Soviets released the German POW's in a timely manner?
I don't know. Most germans captured in Stalingrad battle really died before the end of the war (due to quite obvious reasons). But this is a small part of a total number of POWs. Most were taken in 1944-1945 and survived. That is for sure.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: Devil 505 on September 15, 2016, 10:24:39 PM
There is no excuse for holding POW's for 10 years after the end of hostilities. This was the last atrocity in a war filled with far too many, committed by every participant. All are inexcusable acts and none were "deserved". Period.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: zack1234 on September 16, 2016, 01:47:17 AM
dont understand this logic?
If you find someone in your house stealing your things would you sit them down and have a nice talk?
Maybe this type of thinking is why everything has gone to kak?
They bombed the UK they BOMBED the UK and they got it right back
German prisoners were savages and only had themselves to blame for not being good enough to win the war.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were atrocities then or was it different because they bombed Pearl harbour?
Or those Japanese death marches with allied POWs ?
Which side are you on? :old:
Have I violated your safe spaces :old:
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: NatCigg on September 17, 2016, 10:01:45 AM
now now zack if philosophy was that easy we would have nothing to talk about.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: zack1234 on September 17, 2016, 12:06:51 PM
If liberal rich people were not virtue signalling each other and stealing my money it would not be that easy would it.
We will see next time the Germans start :old:
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: FLOOB on September 17, 2016, 12:23:19 PM
If liberal rich people were not virtue signalling each other and stealing my money it would not be that easy would it.
We will see next time the Germans start :old:
Yeah yeah.. where's my knife?
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: zack1234 on September 17, 2016, 03:38:03 PM
All we can have in the UK is blunt spoons the elites have armed body guards
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: NatCigg on September 18, 2016, 07:29:31 AM
as devil advocate, its not the best feeling when every nut job has a gun, emphasis on nut job. I hear a nut job yelling and my ears perk and head ducks. not that im afraid of getting shot but because i become aware that the situation is volatile and any nut job can have a gun.
Just saying.
:salute
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: FLOOB on September 18, 2016, 08:32:36 AM
German POW in Russia: 2 388 443 Released: 2 031 743 Died in captivity: 356 700
My sister in law's father was a LW 20mm AAA gunner in France. He was wounded on D-Day and sent home to heal. When the war ended, he was sent south from his home by the Americans. He was given to the Soviets and shipped to Siberia in 1945 along with 2300 others.
Because he was a journeyman carpenter he was valued and used to help build bridges on the Siberian highway and railroad. By the time he was repatriated in 1950 only 200 of the 2300 were left alive.
I know it's hearsay, but unless his camp was unusual those numbers sound off. The Russians don't even know how many of their own were lost.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: Nefarious on September 22, 2016, 07:59:03 PM
Coming up on the 75th Anniversary of Babi Yar.
Title: Re: Ghosts of the Ostfront
Post by: Oldman731 on September 22, 2016, 09:13:44 PM