Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Vraciu on December 31, 2016, 10:30:04 AM
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On the ramp in a Mustang (in game) there is a metered delay between full rudder control input and full rudder deflection. Unless the P-51 has some sort of non-linear ratioed rudder pulley, which I doubt, then this is definitely wrong. It's also squirrelly.
The rudder should move in proportion to pedal input and at the same rate.
This may be a setting problem on my end, so apologies in advance, but I haven't found any way to fix it. :salute
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Have you tried checking your advanced controls for that axis?
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Have you tried checking your advanced controls for that axis?
I have. Taking scaling to 100 percent across the board.
My ailerons have the same setting and they work like they should.
In another thread it was suggested that controls are modeled with a lag to simulate air loads. But on the ramp that wouldn't be applicable.
:headscratch:
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In the settings folder find your rudderpeddles.jsm file. Open it with notepad. Find the following line and crop 5000-10000 off each end of the calibration line.
Uncropped line:
Rudder
0,32767,65535,0.050000,0.100000,0.250000
These numbers represent your full left, centered and full right deflection when the calibration app tells you to perform those tasks. By shortening the ends you speed up how fast your rudder deflects relative to your hardware input.
0,32767,65535
My cropped siatek rudder peddle line:
Rudder
17000,32767,49767,0.082000,0.110000,0.250000
What this does is shortens the full deflection needed from your controller input to achieve the deflection you watch while you push your peddles. You will suddenly need much less input to snap out a full deflection because the numbers in the file now tell the game your full deflection is about 3\4 of what it used to be. This translates into a higher rate of deflection in real time. In the end you will have to apply scaling, dead band, and delay to slow it down or you will over control without trying. It will be necessary to have a very slowed down center transition so you have fine control of the first 1\4 deflection off center on each side.
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Will give it a try. Thanks for the input. :salute
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OH!!
Once you do that, don't calibrate your rudder peddles or what you put in the file will be wiped out. Calibration is a way to let the game know what the maximum throw your potentiometers can register. Once you crop the ends of the calibration line, you never need to calibrate that device again. At which point any problems are the device or your PC having issues. Since I discovered this I have not calibrated my controllers since 2009.
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Got it. :aok :salute
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I have. Taking scaling to 100 percent across the board.
My ailerons have the same setting and they work like they should.
In another thread it was suggested that controls are modeled with a lag to simulate air loads. But on the ramp that wouldn't be applicable.
:headscratch:
If you could time the P-51 rudder full deflection on the ramp with and without propwash that would be useful. Timing full deflection at various speeds would be nice too. :aok
To check the effect of settings just look at your raw and scaled output. You'll see that they both go to full at the same time regardless of scaling as long as damping is set to none. Damping will delay the control input in addition to the delay already applied to the rudder by the flight model.
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There is no lag in control movement due to air loads. There is resistance to movement, and at higher speeds, without hydraulic assist, there is air load limited movement range, i.e. you can't fully deflect elevator, etc...
Rudder utilizes the strongest muscles in your body to move...it will still be limited at speed...but there should not be a delay in movement to simulate air loads, as the real aircraft doesn't have a delay in movement WITH air loads.
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If you look at the AH P-51 rudder you'll see it starts to move when the pedals start to move. There is no delay unless you set damping. The rudder won't keep up with a fast pedal movement but it isn't delayed from a lag in control input.
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If you look at the AH P-51 rudder you'll see it starts to move when the pedals start to move. There is no delay unless you set damping.
That is not the point.
There is a delay/reduction in rate/response.
The rudder won't keep up with a fast pedal movement but it isn't delayed from a lag in control input.
If I go full deflection with the controls the rudder should match that deflection. Fast pedal movement should be matched by the surface. It is a direct link via cables.
Sitting on the ramp I move my rudder (control) to full deflection. It takes the rudder surface half a second to reach full deflection. This is simply inaccurate. I have never seen an airplane with conventional flight controls do this--EVER. If one exists I have not flown it yet.
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vraciu you ever think that the delay is just a graphic representation issue and not an actual delay in the fm?
semp
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Sitting on the ramp I move my rudder (control) to full deflection. It takes the rudder surface half a second to reach full deflection. This is simply inaccurate. I have never seen an airplane with conventional flight controls do this--EVER. If one exists I have not flown it yet.
I concur. That lag in rudder response is a pain in the butt. Even on the B-24 you could bang the rudders back and forth as quickly as you could stomp the pedals, not so in game.
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vraciu you ever think that the delay is just a graphic representation issue and not an actual delay in the fm?
semp
I think it is a delay in the flight model as well. I notice it the most during takeoff and landing where you can get a little "behind" the airplane trying to keep it arrow straight on the roll. The rudder response is not realistic.
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I think it is a delay in the flight model as well. I notice it the most during takeoff and landing where you can get a little "behind" the airplane trying to keep it arrow straight on the roll. The rudder response is not realistic.
This
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I concur. That lag in rudder response is a pain in the butt. Even on the B-24 you could bang the rudders back and forth as quickly as you could stomp the pedals, not so in game.
I expect the B-24 rudder pedals are harder to push than PC game controllers.
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I expect the B-24 rudder pedals are harder to push than PC game controllers.
You're rationalizing.
Read what the man said. He has experience in the actual aircraft. If you can do it in a B-24 you can do it in a P-51 sitting on the ramp.
Also, as Dobs pointed out, you're using the strongest muscles available. The control surface (rudder) should deflect at the same rate as the rudder controls are moved.
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You want to see your rudder whip around in a flash sitting on the runway, take off 20,000 from each end of the rudder calibration numbers. It's a great way to never get off the ground due to constant ground loops. And if you use auto takeoff, your flight experience will get really exciting first time you touch a peddle.
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You want to see your rudder whip around in a flash sitting on the runway, take off 20,000 from each end of the rudder calibration numbers. It's a great way to never get off the ground due to constant ground loops. And if you use auto takeoff, your flight experience will get really exciting first time you touch a peddle.
Players should not have to open a .cfg or .ini file and fudge numbers to make things like this possible.
This has been wished for before, but it should be a feature we already have.
We can adjust inner dead-band, but not the outer. Hell, even the Saitek software allows for this.
The math is already there, so please don't tell me how much more work HiTech and his staff would have to do. ;)
Coogan
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All of the files you can edit with notepad in the game will auto regenerate to a first time state if you delete them. You can back them up which is a good practice anyway.
So you don't want to know the file to edit to set terrain editor bases uncapturable when the Ctrl mouse click won't tag them which it does from time to time? Or the ones you can delete to get fresh ones generated before running your final build? You don't want to know that the default gunsights have a size control file with a .mil extension which will let you make your gunsight smaller or larger? I made all of those for AH3.
If you are curious and like to fiddle with programs, the game has many files you can fiddle with and it won't hurt the game. It's just an external way to apply changes to the game that you click buttons on the clipboard for. I have found no way to screw up the game in 15 years by doing this unless I deleted by accident .exe, .dll, or .res files. Then you just run a full install and copy over your backed up settings folder.
All the calibration line in the rudder.jsm file does is log your maximum potentiometer end throws and center point that your device mechanically returns itself to. If you edit the file and tell it your potentiometer has a much shorter throw, then the game will reflect that by deflecting your rudder to its maximum positions left and right with less input from your rudder peddles. And since you have told it your potentiometer throw is shorter, the rudder in game will hit it's ends faster. This is good and bad depending on the individual player's abilities but, you still have to fly the plane inside of the same physics environment everyone else is and learn your ACM and SA.
You can do this for your joystick so the throw distance is much smaller requiring less effort from your wrist. That with additional tension bands I MODDed my CH Fighterstick potentiometer yoke with, makes it hard auto center and feel like a real stick due to the tension band feed back. Way back in the 90's I worked for a sound card company that had a partnership with Thrust Mater. I was paid by my company to play AW so I could be the phone support for game problems realted to AW. Thrust Master shipped me replacement parts as I wore out their products in the game. I thought games were also about the MODDing to get a "self perceived" performance edge and that deep down good feeling rebuilding your own short block engine used to give guys way back when.
So from your gist, I should even stop developing gunsights for the game because it might cause problems for Hitech? Did you know the 100mph principle for 100Mil gunsight rings works in the game just like the WW2 gunnery manuals describe because of how good Hitech's physics modeling is? I used to include all of those manuals in my AH2 Historic Gunsight package.
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I expect the B-24 rudder pedals are harder to push than PC game controllers.
On the ground they move quite easily but yes, somewhat more resistance than my CH pedals.
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I only notice this "lag" in the rudder, not ailerons or elevator.
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I only notice this "lag" in the rudder, not ailerons or elevator.
Bingo. It makes no sense.
Does bustr's fix also solve the rate issue? If the time from center to full throw is still half a second we've only created a variation of the problem.
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Are you guys sure that it's the game and not a hardware issue such as your pedals? The reason I ask is that I haven't noticed any sort of lag input with the rudders on the P-38 with my VKB pedals but with my CH pedals, rudder input always felt mushy. My pedals now are so sensitive that I had to scale them because the slightest touch on the pedals would make the rudders move.
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Are you guys sure that it's the game and not a hardware issue such as your pedals? The reason I ask is that I haven't noticed any sort of lag input with the rudders on the P-38 with my VKB pedals but with my CH pedals, rudder input always felt mushy. My pedals now are so sensitive that I had to scale them because the slightest touch on the pedals would make the rudders move.
Try it on the P-51 and see. Dobs said the P-38 has the same issue, btw.
The point is not making them move. The point is the time delay between full rudder input and full rudder deflection. There is a noticeable lag. That is simply inaccurate.
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As soon as I move my peddles, I get deflection motion at the rate I scaled the rudder to slow down an almost instant slap to full deflection by removing 17000 from each end of the potentiometer scale line. That is sitting on the runway and watching it deflect as I push the peddles. As for in flight, who knows unless you are trying to start the opening salvo with Hitech to convince him he has something with the P51 wrong and this is post v1.00 in a long campaign.
Just copy off your rudderpeddlebrandname.jsm file as a backup. Then edit the active one in notepad and change the first number to 10000 and delete 10000 off the last number which will change it to 55535. Then up your P51 offline and watch your rudder peddle deflections. Depending on the brand of rudder peddle, the line will either say "rudder", or "z axis", or "slider", or "z rotation".
Other wise if it is that finger toggle in Siatek throttle quadrants, or a twisty stick rudder, I think it says "z rotation" for the twisty and "axis-yaw" for the finger toggles. Or do a calibration where you only partially deflect it in both directions and compare the lines to the backup file. And you always have the backup file to put everything back where it was.
I get the feeling you don't want to do something this simple and hope others will and report back instead. Just back up the jsm file and you cannot hurt anything.
And it's not a fix for your issue, I resorted to it after noticing with my CH Fighterstick in AH2 I was not getting a full right aileron deflection with the P51D even when I repeatedly calibrated. I just happened to notice that by accident offline one day. So I cropped the ends of the calibration lines and suddenly got a full deflection with less wrist input and faster deflections to full stop. So I applied it too all of the axis calibrations. I've never had to replace springs, potentiometers, or calibrate since. I didn't bother to test other planes for the lack of full deflection since, after I cropped the ends of the line, all planes had great and fast deflection on all axis. I may have a bad pot in my flight stick and this accounted for the bad pot for all I know.
And I had to learn a lot about scaling so my spi16 would stop snapping over into the ground when I got low and slow in furballs. Full deflection in half the joystick arm throw is very powerful and a great way to end up in the dirt if you don't understand scaling. You need to slow down the intial 1\3 of the rudder movement for fine control on taxi, takeoff and those micro deflections to help lineup targets. And so your GV doesn't fling itself from side to side just touching the rudder. Yeah sounds like a lot of work to fix a perception.....
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Anyone have film of what they say the problem is?
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Anyone have film of what they say the problem is?
I don't think it can be filmed unless someone can GO-PRO their stick and have that as a popup while recording the game in FRAPS.
Maybe film the rudder in external view (or to the rear) with the control slider page for Rudder also showing?
I will give Bustr's idea a shot in a bit and see if that does anything. Sounds like there is hope.
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might be a silly question...but do you have any dampening scaled? could be a reason for the delay
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might be a silly question...but do you have any dampening scaled? could be a reason for the delay
Already answered above. No, I do not.
Nor do the others having the problem.
FLS has stated this is a coded "feature".
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I only notice this "lag" in the rudder, not ailerons or elevator.
At high speeds you'll see slow and limited movement in the ailerons and elevator depending on aircraft model.
If you look at the RV8 or Fieseler Storch in game you'll see a very responsive rudder.
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At high speeds you'll see slow and limited movement in the ailerons and elevator depending on aircraft model.
If you look at the RV8 or Fieseler Storch in game you'll see a very responsive rudder.
ARGH!!! :bhead :bhead :bhead This is happening on the ramp.
As Dobs correctly noted, airloads will only impact amount not rate. If you can push the pedal the surface will move proportionally. It is a direct-link control system. The only limit other than structural failure is the strength of the guy pushing the pedal.
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ARGH!!! :bhead :bhead :bhead This is happening on the ramp.
Yes I've been pointing that out for years now.
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Yes I've been pointing that out for years now.
What does the Storch or RV have to do with this? Are you pointing out that it's not a fleet-wide issue?
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What does the Storch or RV have to do with this? Are you pointing out that it's not a fleet-wide issue?
I was answering Colmbo and pointing out that every aircraft has it's own modeling.
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I was answering Colmbo and pointing out that every aircraft has it's own modeling.
Gotcha.
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Is it possible this is unique to your hardware? Long time ago I got into one of these and it turned out my Saitek x52 was telling me to replace it.
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Is it possible this is unique to your hardware? Long time ago I got into one of these and it turned out my Saitek x52 was telling me to replace it.
I doubt it. We all have different hardware.
It's coded into the game.
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I doubt it. We all have different hardware.
It's coded into the game.
It could be hardware, not all hardware have the same response time.
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It could be hardware, not all hardware have the same response time.
Again, I doubt it.
It responds instantaneously. It just moves slowly. This is a slowed control surface. The advanced control menu shows what the joystick is sending--which is immediate. The rudder is the only control that lags in rate.
The hardware is not the issue.
The ailerons and elevator work the way the rudder SHOULD but doesn't. The inputs are there. The code is slowing the rudder surface movement rate.
Deflection begins as full input is applied, it just takes half a second to GET there. Aileron and elevator move at the same rate as control input.
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Again, I doubt it.
It responds instantaneously. It just moves slowly. This is a slowed control surface. The advanced control menu shows what the joystick is sending--which is immediate. The rudder is the only control that lags in rate.
The hardware is not the issue.
The ailerons and elevator work the way the rudder SHOULD but doesn't. The inputs are there. The code is slowing the rudder surface rate.
I tried this during fso while on the ground. the movement was instantaneous.
semp
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I tried this during fso while on the ground. the movement was instantaneous.
semp
Pardon my skepticism given your penchant for contradicting everything I say just because...
Movement *begins* instantaneously. It does not reach full deflection instantly. Others have experienced the same issue.
I will have to try bustr's fix and see how that goes.
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If it was coded in the game then everyone would be experiencing you have described. I am not experiencing it at all, there is no lag whatsoever in any rudder input I do.
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If it was coded in the game then everyone would be experiencing you have described. I am not experiencing it at all, there is no lag whatsoever in any rudder input I do.
I am not the only one so there IS some sort of issue.
FLS has stated it is coded that way for this airplane. Not all planes behave the same way.
So you are saying YOU can bang your rudder back and forth like a pinball flipper on your end in the P-51D?
Not near my rig to try bustr's solution.
In any event, Hitech's silence tells me all I need to know (and I don't say that confrontationally in any way). It's either intended to be like this or it is a problem with the computers of Dobs, Colmbo, myself, etc. etc. and it's up to the three of us to figure out which.
Still don't believe the latter. Control inputs are being received by the game immediately. It's seeing what I am doing with the rudder then metering the speed of rudder travel from neutral to full deflection or vice versa.
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I'm telling you that I can slam my rudders back and forth and there is no lag in the input responses at all in any plane I fly in the game.
Are you using pedals with that use potentiometers or a MARS type sensor?
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I'm telling you that I can slam my rudders back and forth and there is no lag in the input responses at all in any plane I fly in the game.
Are you using pedals with that use potentiometers or a MARS type sensor?
Just so we're on the same page here. If you look at your rudder and push a pedal to full deflection the rudder goes to full deflection at the same time as the pedal? In my case, and Vraciu's, the rudder doesn't keep up but the amount of lag varies with aircraft. There is no lag in the rudder starting to move, it just can't move as fast as the game controller can.
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Just so we're on the same page here. If you look at your rudder and push a pedal to full deflection the rudder goes to full deflection at the same time as the pedal? In my case, and Vraciu's, the rudder doesn't keep up but the amount of lag varies with aircraft. There is no lag in the rudder starting to move, it just can't move as fast as the game controller can.
Yes. I'll make a recording of it the next time I get online.
What kind of pedals are you using? CH?
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I don't see how it can be the controller. In the advanced controller setup there's no lag between pedal movement and raw input. I map the pedals to the elevator and there's no lag. I map the joystick to the rudder and the rudder trails the stick if I move it quickly.
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I'm telling you that I can slam my rudders back and forth and there is no lag in the input responses at all in any plane I fly in the game.
Are you using pedals with that use potentiometers or a MARS type sensor?
No, sir.
I will film it (if I can) just to be sure we are speaking the same language.
I'm using a twisty stick. The settings screen for raw/scaled is not identical to the rudder response.
I will be back to my machine in a couple days. I can also try another one and see if it behaves the same way.
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Yes. I'll make a recording of it the next time I get online.
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I suspect you just move your pedals at a reasonable speed and the rudder can keep up. :D
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I suspect you just move your pedals at a reasonable speed and the rudder can keep up. :D
Define reasonable?
I can move the pedals on any airplane with conventional controls as fast as humanly possible and they keep up. Certainly that's the case in the many dozens I've flown and I see no reason why the Mustang would be different.
In here neutral to full throw is lagged in rudder ONLY. Elevator and aileron keep up just fine. I am hardly excessive in speed though I've tried it just to see. Aileron and elevator keep up.
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Define reasonable?
I can move the pedals on any airplane as fast as humanly possible and they keep up.
In here neutral to full throw is lagged in rudder ONLY. Elevator and rudder keep up just fine.
damn you have flown all the airplanes? that must be some kind of record.
semp
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Define reasonable?
I can move the pedals on any airplane with conventional controls as fast as humanly possible and they keep up. Certainly that's the case in the many dozens I've flown any way and I see no reason why the Mustang would be different.
In here neutral to full throw is lagged in rudder ONLY. Elevator and aileron keep up just fine. I am hardly excessive in speed though I've tried it just to see. Aileron and elevator keep up.
Get the quote right, Semp.
damn you have flown all the airplanes? that must be some kind of record.
semp
How many different planes have YOU flown?
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What u didn't know Aachoo has flown faster...bailed out higher... Hit the water harder and come up dryer than anyone whos crapped behind a pair of flight boots...
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What u didn't know Aachoo has flown faster...bailed out higher... Hit the water harder and come up dryer than anyone whos crapped behind a pair of flight boots...
:rofl
I always liked the toast to The Great Santini.
"To the greatest fighter pilot to ever crap between two shoes. I give you Bull Meechum!"
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Define reasonable?
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...as much as is appropriate or fair; moderate.
Note it was a comment for Ack-Ack that could explain his different experience.
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...as much as is appropriate or fair; moderate.
Note it was a comment for Ack-Ack that could explain his different experience.
I asked him if he could slam them around. He claims he can.
You have noted a difference between the 51 and the RV.
Which is it? :headscratch:
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Get the quote right, Semp.
How many different planes have YOU flown?
well according to you you have flown every single airplane and they all respond right away except in here. that was your quote.
semp
edit: and you changed your quote after I posted it. so make up your mind.
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I asked him if he could slam them around. He claims he can.
You have noted a difference between the 51 and the RV.
Which is it? :headscratch:
You have a better theory for his different experience?
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You have a better theory for his different experience?
I think there's a coded lag. At least four of us are seeing it. So what you said above must be it.
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I think there's a coded lag. At least four of us are seeing it. So what you said above must be it.
I only fly the p51 I tried it many times yesterday in the air. it was instantaneous. but I am curious about your idea of why would hitech coded that way just for you while in the ground?
semp
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I only fly the p51 I tried it many times yesterday in the air. it was instantaneous. but I am curious about your idea of why would hitech coded that way just for you while in the ground?
semp
Have you bothered to even read the thread? (Rhetorical question. The answer is clearly NO.)
Welcome to my ignore list. You really contribute nothing other than snark.
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Have you bothered to even read the thread? (Rhetorical question. The answer is clearly NO.)
Welcome to my ignore list. You really contribute nothing other than snark.
if it happens to you in the ground while you arent moving then why does it matter to you. not like you are gonna spend hours looking at it. in the air it doesnt happen. so you want something fixed that has very low priority.
semp
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if it happens to you in the ground while you arent moving then why does it matter to you. not like you are gonna spend hours looking at it. in the air it doesnt happen. so you want something fixed that has very low priority.
semp
It happens ALL THE TIME, the ground test eliminates air loads as a factor. This was already explained.
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I only fly the p51 I tried it many times yesterday in the air. it was instantaneous. but I am curious about your idea of why would hitech coded that way just for you while in the ground?
semp
The control surfaces are all affected by speed to various degrees. The question is if the low speed affect is too great. The rate at which the rudder can go to full deflection seems likely to affect low speed maneuvering so that's why the deflection rate on the runway is an issue.
Hitech has flown a P-51 and I haven't so I'm inclined to go with his choice. I'm assuming the other guy had his feet off the pedals. :D
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It happens ALL THE TIME, the ground test eliminates air loads as a factor. This was already explained.
I tried it about 20 times while in the air yesterday. the rudder movement was instantaneous. I nearly broke my stick trying to go full left or right as fast as I could. I crashed my plane once as I lost control while low on the ground.
semp
semp
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Semp it's not that the rudder lags before it starts moving, it's that the rudder finishes moving after the controller stops moving when you move the controller quickly.
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Semp it's not that the rudder lags before it starts moving, it's that the rudder finishes moving after the controller stops moving when you move the controller quickly.
that's what I am talking about. I go full rudder in my pony and when my hand stops the rudder stops. I am gonna go fly it again in a couple of minutes. this is why I dont understand what he's talking about I have been flying the pony for 2 or 3 years at least. I would have noticed it if it happened to me while in the air.
sep
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that's what I am talking about. I go full rudder in my pony and when my hand stops the rudder stops. I am gonna go fly it again in a couple of minutes. this is why I dont understand what he's talking about I have been flying the pony for 2 or 3 years at least. I would have noticed it if it happened to me while in the air.
sep
That's basically what Ack-Ack posted. Hence the conundrum because I know what I'm seeing and it's not what you're reporting.
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I checked the rudders at low speed the move as I move the controls.
semp
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I checked the rudders at low speed the move as I move the controls.
semp
That's how it is for everybody.