Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: zinhwk on February 18, 2017, 10:46:23 PM
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New to AH but not new to WWII sims so perhaps this is rehashing old material. I am/was a 109 nut but I just can't get myself to enjoy the AH version with the silly trim indicators in my face. Aside from 109s not having in flight trim except for the H stab, I would rather have the "proper" ammo counters there and maybe move the trim indicators to a lower panel like on the ordinance panel between the legs on Jabo fitted 109s.
There are instruments and "feel" on controller input to figure out trim, and then the easy mode combat trim to zero things in a hurry so I'm not getting the necessity of the trim indicator location.
Just a thought.
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There are some concessions made because it IS a game. WWII planes didn't have an ammo counter. They have them in the game to make it easier for players to KNOW when they are running out and are not surprised by a tracer color change.
The same goes for trim. Auto trim wasn't something WWII planes had. It is added in the game to make it easier for many player to fly. In stead of "working" to keep a plane in the air, the game handles the little things to let player enjoy the game.
Welcome to Aces High. It is the best at being a cross between SIM, and GAME.
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There are some concessions made because it IS a game. WWII planes didn't have an ammo counter. They have them in the game to make it easier for players to KNOW when they are running out and are not surprised by a tracer color change.
Uhhh, yes they did. 10 seconds of reading reveals this.
(http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/bf109cockpit/Ammo_Bf109G_HK_01.jpg)
Not everything was designed like the Americans. I get the concessions, but different choices can be made without damaging playability and simming.
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Uhhh, yes they did. 10 seconds of reading reveals this.
(http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/bf109cockpit/Ammo_Bf109G_HK_01.jpg)
Not everything was designed like the Americans. I get the concessions, but different choices can be made without damaging playability and simming.
Only some aircraft, mainly German, had this feature. For game purposes there are ammo counters. That said, after a short time with playing favorites you'll pretty much ignore the counter as you'll have a feel for the ammo left.
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Hence the title " LW Ammo Counters"
Anyway, just bringing it up as the same argument can be said for trimming. You trim by "feel" thus having the indicators in your face as a primary instrument on the 109/190/110/410 rather than the actual ammo counters is a head scratcher for me. Years of getting used to one sight picture and then have that crammed in mess is jarring. Maybe one day I'll just ignore it.
I can tell people often talk to a brick wall here so that's all I gots to say bout dat.
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Again, this is a GAME, not a sim. ALL ammo counters look the same in ALL planes to make it easy for a player to find and understand what they are looking at.
The same goes for the trim indicators, for the same reasons. This is a game not a sim.
They also do NOT have cowl flaps and heaters and the multitude of other things that a sim would have. This game is designed as a game.
As for talking to a wall, in this case, yes, because the designer of the game designed it this way on purpose. He isn't going to make changes just because some one wants more of a sim feel, he built a game, not a sim. However when it comes to how the planes and GV react in the world he created he tries to keep it as true to the real equipment as he can and WILL listen to suggestions as long as you have evidence proving your claims.
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I was going to leave it be, but now you are conflating requests for ultra sim functions and what I'm asking which is a simple change in display of existing information. You first said it was the best sim/game, now you shout it's just a game? Which is it?
I contend the Luftwaffe ammo counter is intuitive, just as easy to use, it can be labeled to make it obvious as well. Keep the trim indicators. Put them where the digital counter is. I think this would improve the model detail/sim characteristics for those interested (FSO crowd perhaps) without changing the way the game plays.
I'll present an example of the idea in General for more eyes in the interest of fact finding. If people don't like it or care so be it.
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I was going to leave it be, but now you are conflating requests for ultra sim functions and what I'm asking which is a simple change in display of existing information. You first said it was the best sim/game, now you shout it's just a game? Which is it?
I contend the Luftwaffe ammo counter is intuitive, just as easy to use, it can be labeled to make it obvious as well. Keep the trim indicators. Put them where the digital counter is. I think this would improve the model detail/sim characteristics for those interested (FSO crowd perhaps) without changing the way the game plays.
I'll present an example of the idea in General for more eyes in the interest of fact finding. If people don't like it or care so be it.
There is only one person that you need to convince and he has had it set like it is for over 10 years. Good luck.
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There is only one person that you need to convince and he has had it set like it is for over 10 years. Good luck.
With respect, not quite right. I don't believe HTC has been presented with this specific request. The suggestion is simply to change the placement of 109 cockpit instruments. It could be done. In fact, given the general historical accuracy of the AH instrument panels, it probably should be done. There's no effect on other aeroplanes.
- oldman
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It's been discussed a NUMBER of times, actually. Consensus is that it's totally unneeded and would be much more inaccurate than our number-readout-system we have now.
In reality, in WW2, it was useful because German pilots would have a rough idea of how much ammo they had left. In Aces High, where you can fly multiple combats in a single sortie, engage and disengage a dozen times, rearm on a hotpad, and keep going, you really need a better understanding of where you stand so you can decide when to turn back and when to keep going.
In WW2 you'd have combat then RTB. Your first combat was usually the last of the day (most times). The majority of pilots in all nations would fire their guns until they ran out then run away. The US pilots were notorious for that, too.
As for using the LW ammo counters for trim? I think it's a clever use of the historical cockpit layout to convey information. I can see how some might not appreciate it, however I don't think it's really worth it to shoe-horn them in somewhere else so that the analog and inaccurate ammo counters on just a few planes can be implemented.
P.S. Trim is not just "to make it easy" -- it's because of the differences with a real stick in a real plane with real forces on it vs a spring-centered joystick at a computer. Reality vs implementation. It's there to help mimic reality with the hardware we have. In the real case, you could just shift your "center" with a little more pressure and fly normally. In this game, your "center" is fixed because of the sensors/pots on your stick and the spring-to-center yields wildly out-of-trim situations that should be easier to overcome than we really can. That's how trim works in this game -- it's not "trim" trim it's just allowing you to shift your stick's "center." That's how we can have aileron trim in planes that didn't have adjustable aileron trim. It's not modelling the trim, but modelling you just holding the stick a fraction of an inch "to the left" instead. You'll see that the control surfaces actually deflect too.
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It's been discussed a NUMBER of times, actually. Consensus is that it's totally unneeded and would be much more inaccurate than our number-readout-system we have now.
In reality, in WW2, it was useful because German pilots would have a rough idea of how much ammo they had left. In Aces High, where you can fly multiple combats in a single sortie, engage and disengage a dozen times, rearm on a hotpad, and keep going, you really need a better understanding of where you stand so you can decide when to turn back and when to keep going.
In WW2 you'd have combat then RTB. Your first combat was usually the last of the day (most times). The majority of pilots in all nations would fire their guns until they ran out then run away. The US pilots were notorious for that, too.
As for using the LW ammo counters for trim? I think it's a clever use of the historical cockpit layout to convey information. I can see how some might not appreciate it, however I don't think it's really worth it to shoe-horn them in somewhere else so that the analog and inaccurate ammo counters on just a few planes can be implemented.
P.S. Trim is not just "to make it easy" -- it's because of the differences with a real stick in a real plane with real forces on it vs a spring-centered joystick at a computer. Reality vs implementation. It's there to help mimic reality with the hardware we have. In the real case, you could just shift your "center" with a little more pressure and fly normally. In this game, your "center" is fixed because of the sensors/pots on your stick and the spring-to-center yields wildly out-of-trim situations that should be easier to overcome than we really can. That's how trim works in this game -- it's not "trim" trim it's just allowing you to shift your stick's "center." That's how we can have aileron trim in planes that didn't have adjustable aileron trim. It's not modelling the trim, but modelling you just holding the stick a fraction of an inch "to the left" instead. You'll see that the control surfaces actually deflect too.
You don't have a clue how or what trim does in a real airplane or when and why a pilot would use it, apparently.
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It's been discussed a NUMBER of times, actually. Consensus is that it's totally unneeded and would be much more inaccurate than our number-readout-system we have now.
In reality, in WW2, it was useful because German pilots would have a rough idea of how much ammo they had left. In Aces High, where you can fly multiple combats in a single sortie, engage and disengage a dozen times, rearm on a hotpad, and keep going, you really need a better understanding of where you stand so you can decide when to turn back and when to keep going.
In WW2 you'd have combat then RTB. Your first combat was usually the last of the day (most times). The majority of pilots in all nations would fire their guns until they ran out then run away. The US pilots were notorious for that, too.
As for using the LW ammo counters for trim? I think it's a clever use of the historical cockpit layout to convey information. I can see how some might not appreciate it, however I don't think it's really worth it to shoe-horn them in somewhere else so that the analog and inaccurate ammo counters on just a few planes can be implemented.
P.S. Trim is not just "to make it easy" -- it's because of the differences with a real stick in a real plane with real forces on it vs a spring-centered joystick at a computer. Reality vs implementation. It's there to help mimic reality with the hardware we have. In the real case, you could just shift your "center" with a little more pressure and fly normally. In this game, your "center" is fixed because of the sensors/pots on your stick and the spring-to-center yields wildly out-of-trim situations that should be easier to overcome than we really can. That's how trim works in this game -- it's not "trim" trim it's just allowing you to shift your stick's "center." That's how we can have aileron trim in planes that didn't have adjustable aileron trim. It's not modelling the trim, but modelling you just holding the stick a fraction of an inch "to the left" instead. You'll see that the control surfaces actually deflect too.
Okay. Ammo counter discussion.
1. Number of sorties is irrelevant to the function of the ammo counter, but just so you know it was common for the Germans to fly multiple sorties in a single day. Read any number of Luftwaffe journals. It comes down to location and mission and most of the war they were fighting over there own airfields. I'm noticing a trend in the counter argument to having everything compared to the Americans, why? Read more folks.
2. The function of the ammo counter is not wildly inaccurate. In the photo above, for game arguments sake, you have left to right MG 17(left), MG151, MG 17(right). It is pretty clearly displaying you have ~250rds each MG 17, and ~180rds of the cannon. Now real life, sure, hampered by electro-mechanical systems of the time, it would could be off a little, but you would be splitting hairs over 10-15 rds, in either case, you are RTB. In the game, yes I realize its a game, fed by on-the-gnats-ass digital numbers, it would display just as accurate real time information on your ammo count. Don't have white bars, go home. You would have a counter for each gun in your aircraft.
3. As far as cramming the beloved trim indicators elsewhere.. Why not? It is blended into the P-51, P-38 and many others nicely without disturbing the historical layout.
It really boils down to cosmetics/marketing. I stayed away from Aces High for a long time when it was AH2 over this issue really. I looked at the cockpit pictures and thought "ew, doesn't seem like these guys bother with research". How many others thought the same with every competitor game/sim getting this detail right? I like what AH3 offers to make it competitive again. I like that it is actively being looked at and issues responded to, something not being done in my previous corner of the internet, but it can still be improved in little areas to appeal to more people.
BTW I do realize this is a bottom of the totem pole item for Hitech. Hence future wishlist.
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Your missing a couple of things on how slider and counter do not give the same information.
1. Tells you how many rounds you have when you take off, vs simply % full.
2. Bombs/rockets are also an ammo again how many did you load when you took off?
Hitech
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Hence the title " LW Ammo Counters"
Anyway, just bringing it up as the same argument can be said for trimming. You trim by "feel" thus having the indicators in your face as a primary instrument on the 109/190/110/410 rather than the actual ammo counters is a head scratcher for me. Years of getting used to one sight picture and then have that crammed in mess is jarring. Maybe one day I'll just ignore it.
I can tell people often talk to a brick wall here so that's all I gots to say bout dat.
A good suggestion I suppose. I don't fly 109s much so I can't say I am personally invested.
Give it some time. You'll get the feel for it and adapt. Welcome aboard.
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Your missing a couple of things on how slider and counter do not give the same information.
1. Tells you how many rounds you have when you take off, vs simply % full.
2. Bombs/rockets are also an ammo again how many did you load when you took off?
Hitech
1. Maybe if the sz500/100 were measured in percent, but it is not. While the information is displayed is a slider, the tick marks are a count. Here is a clearer picture of a 190 panel with the "full" mark noted in quantity. The slide is at the number loaded.
(http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/fw190cockpit/images/Ammo_FW190A8_DM_01.jpg)
2. I guess I make the clear distinction between ammunition (loaded in a gun), and ordnance (attached to the plane). The smart bellybutton answer to your question is yes, the hangar tells me how much is loaded. But for ordnance that's an area where concessions make sense to use the digi counter.
Here is what I am imagining to blend historical correctness and game necessity. A 500 count or 200 count would cover most guns. You could even remove the bottom slide adjustment button and use a label for each counter for clarity. Depending on how the counters are sized you could have the ordnance window next to the counters. Same logic applied to the 190 in a layout like the example picture above.
(https://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/17/68/67/72/109ckp11.jpg)
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Is it possible the OP is talking about the silly HUD.
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Is it possible the OP is talking about the silly HUD.
:headscratch:
No I'm pretty sure im talking about the ammo counters for the primary guns.
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i just count the bullets fired and use subtraction, then I know how much ammo I have left. :banana:
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Here is what I am imagining to blend historical correctness and game necessity. A 500 count or 200 count would cover most guns. You could even remove the bottom slide adjustment button and use a label for each counter for clarity. Depending on how the counters are sized you could have the ordnance window next to the counters. Same logic applied to the 190 in a layout like the example picture above.
I knew what you were looking for.
I was referencing this part of your statement.
it would display just as accurate real time information on your ammo count.
I was just explaining that it is not quite so simple as your vision is when you include all the elements the counters actually are used for.
I also just thought of.
3. which weapon is currently selected.
4. Which weapon is on the primary trigger & which is secondary.
HiTech
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I knew what you were looking for.
I was referencing this part of your statement.
I was just explaining that it is not quite so simple as your vision is when you include all the elements the counters actually are used for.
I also just thought of.
3. which weapon is currently selected. The ord window will still show current selection
4. Which weapon is on the primary trigger & which is secondary. The same weapons that they are now. Even though the counters are in left->right in order of gun placement as you sit (intuitive), labels would make this clear
HiTech
It seems there is the assumption people who play this game have never played anything else. There will be some for sure, but a help page and simple squirting off rounds and watching the counters people pick this up pretty quick.
Here's an example where the secondary window is moved next to the counters.
(https://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/17/68/67/72/109ckp14.jpg)
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See rule #4
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I want a 109 with 500 rounds per gun like his!
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I want a 109 with 500 rounds per gun like his!
If I understand correctly, if that gauge was maxed out, then it would have 500 rounds.
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So Hitech if he wants you to make this like IL2 and DCS, why hasn't he noticed the problem with the MG151\20 Motor-Lafette? Or the none standard Knuppelgriff A and B knopfes. Just like why you chose to leave out 30 minutes of pre fight engine management in favor of seat of your pants combat in an environment that supports 600 players.
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It's simply a counter. 500 is just from the two RL examples SZ500 and SZ100 (the number is the max quantity). I just did a blanket example of 500 for a simplicity sake and it covers most maximum ammo loads for He 109/190. You could do 300, 200, 1000, whatever it doesn't matter.
You guys are getting hung up on this percentage thing. At 500 as in the example, the counters
would never be full but you can see the marks at 300rds for the MG 131, 200 or 150 for MG151. Again the slider just marks the count, it may be "full" or not depending on the maximum quantity setting and what is loaded.
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So Hitech if he wants you to make this like IL2 and DCS, why hasn't he noticed the problem with the MG151\20 Motor-Lafette? Or the none standard Knuppelgriff A and B knopfes. Just like why you chose to leave out 30 minutes of pre fight engine management in favor of seat of your pants combat in an environment that supports 600 players.
Because I didn't say make this DCS bustr. You can put the pitch fork away.
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It's simply a counter. 500 is just from the two RL examples SZ500 and SZ100 (the number is the max quantity). I just did a blanket example of 500 for a simplicity sake and it covers most maximum ammo loads for He 109/190. You could do 300, 200, 1000, whatever it doesn't matter.
You guys are getting hung up on this percentage thing. At 500 as in the example, the counters
would never be full but you can see the marks at 300rds for the MG 131, 200 or 150 for MG151. Again the slider just marks the count, it may be "full" or not depending on the maximum quantity setting and what is loaded.
can you do one for the pony for 6 guns. I want a counter for each gun. heck the p47's would need 8 indicators for guns. and dont get me started with the mossie.
semp
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So Hitech if he wants you to make this like IL2 and DCS, why hasn't he noticed the problem with the MG151\20 Motor-Lafette? Or the none standard Knuppelgriff A and B knopfes. Just like why you chose to leave out 30 minutes of pre fight engine management in favor of seat of your pants combat in an environment that supports 600 players.
Take it easy, man. Geezus, this attitude drives people away. Park your high horse at the barn. :salute
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can you do one for the pony for 6 guns. I want a counter for each gun. heck the p47's would need 8 indicators for guns. and dont get me started with the mossie.
semp
Which one of the Seven Dwarfs are you supposed to be? Sardonic?
Give the guy a break. You know what he is saying. Try not to run him away after his first week. :cheers:
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I'm not going anywhere soon. I'm used to the never changers :furious.
I appreciate you responding hitech. I get that its a lot of work for cosmetics and hopefully I've been clear enough in explaining the thought. If it is not worth the effort and time some day that's fine. I like more in your world to stay than a damn ammo counter :salute.
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If you are a realism Luft plane fan, and only one would want the 109 and FW SZKK ammo counters with Sz100 insert modules. Then you need to ask for the FW visual aid flap angle indicator. The pilot was able to look out on the wing at a tiny hole and see an arc slider with marks that moved as the flaps went up and down. And then there are the emergency release attachments for the WG21 tubes not modeled in this game. That would be more use full for game play and get more players upping with WG21 knowing they can ditch them in an emergency.
There is a universe of german realism that could be modeled only into the german planes. But, then that doesn't cover the whole community who you are not asking for similar preferential treatment for the whole game. When we were testing during the 2 years of the alpha\beta, Waffle performed updates to the german cockpits along with all cockpits for the instrument packages and gunsights. Hitech could have directed Waffle to give more love to the Luft cockpits since I'm assuming most WW2 air simm fans know about the SZKK counters.
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Welp, bustr. I wasn't around during the beta or I might have. There's a world outside AH. It's pretty cool.
Of course I would prefer everything detailed with whatever it had (read visual detail, not uber sim functions). I find asking for specifics is easier to discuss change than asking for the moon.
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I'm not going anywhere soon. I'm used to the never changers :furious.
I appreciate you responding hitech. I get that its a lot of work for cosmetics and hopefully I've been clear enough in explaining the thought. If it is not worth the effort and time some day that's fine. I like more in your world to stay than a damn ammo counter :salute.
Sadly, we have way more than seven (mental?) dwarfs 'round these parts. :salute
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Of all the Luftwaffe related inaccuracies, shortcomings, and plane-set holes, this is so far down the list of wants/needs as to be almost not worth mentioning.
Here's a short list of things FAR more important to add or fix
Bf 110F
Fw 190A-2 or A-3
Bf 109G-14 A/S
Bf 109E-7
Ju 188
Hs 129
He 177
Ju 88G
Add bomb racks for the 109F and K
Correct weight or armor protection for the 190A-8
Ability to jettison Wgr. 21 tubes
Ability to separate cannon triggers in the Fw190
Replace tail wheel on the 109G-6 with the fixed type
And that's just what I could come up with off the top of my head.