Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Rodent57 on May 30, 2017, 04:10:19 PM
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Just downloaded patch 3102, notes say "Pitch ladder now goes away when in a cloud."
Now, I'm not a fan of having a pitch ladder in a WWII fighter to begin with (so I turned mine off), but I can't think of a time when you might need one more than when in a cloud....which leads to my question:
why no pitch ladder in a clouds?
Cheers!
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Maybe, cos if your in a cloud, you cant see, so your forced to look at your dials !?
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Maybe, cos if your in a cloud, you cant see, so your forced to look at your dials !?
He's got a point. It does seem illogical for the pitch ladder to vanish in a cloud.
Had to laugh when I first went into a cloud bank in 3.1. Without thinking at first, for the first time in my AH career I used my artificial horizon.
Wiley.
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The pitch ladder is to help with the added difficulty of knowing your attitude when in the vertical or high angles vs real life.
There are detriments to flying in a cloud, removing the pitch ladder then represents the real life fly by the gauges.
HiTech
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Enter cloud. Press "X". Don't need no stinking pitch ladder or dials.
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Enter cloud. Press "X". Don't need no stinking pitch ladder or dials.
:rofl :aok
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He's got a point. It does seem illogical for the pitch ladder to vanish in a cloud.
Had to laugh when I first went into a cloud bank in 3.1. Without thinking at first, for the first time in my AH career I used my artificial horizon.
Wiley.
It seems even more illogical to have one at all in a WWII fighter other than maybe offline or the TA. Not sure what the reasoning is except perhaps to help with the learning curve.
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It seems even more illogical to have one at all in a WWII fighter other than maybe offline or the TA. Not sure what the reasoning is except perhaps to help with the learning curve.
I get where you're coming from V but I'm sure you know that real life you get a lot more cues via peripheral vision than we do in the game. With the exception of fight in or near clouds in R/L I never had an issue staying oriented --- in game I sometimes have to look around to figure out where the heck the horizon is. :)
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I get where you're coming from V but I'm sure you know that real life you get a lot more cues via peripheral vision than we do in the game. With the exception of fight in or near clouds in R/L I never had an issue staying oriented --- in game I sometimes have to look around to figure out where the heck the horizon is. :)
Surely there are enough cues in game? How about looking left or right and when the horizon is 90 degrees to your wing you are pretty much vertical. IMO the only time being 'exactly' vertical is in a rope situation and I know I am looing at my horizon / wing / enemy views.
I really thought the pitch ladder was introduced for testing rather than general gameplay. I do not use it and believe it would not make a difference to my game style or skill level so do not care if it is there or not. However, as V said, why do we have it in a WW2 based sim?
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I get where you're coming from V but I'm sure you know that real life you get a lot more cues via peripheral vision than we do in the game. With the exception of fight in or near clouds in R/L I never had an issue staying oriented --- in game I sometimes have to look around to figure out where the heck the horizon is. :)
I just naturally seem to know my orientation without a pitch ladder.
I agree the visual cues are less than perfect compared to real life but this affects me more when trying to figure out where a bandit is in relation to me. Some of the view angles look wrong to me no matter how long I play the game. It's tough to get 3D out of a 2D platform obviously.
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Surely there are enough cues in game? How about looking left or right and when the horizon is 90 degrees to your wing you are pretty much vertical. IMO the only time being 'exactly' vertical is in a rope situation and I know I am looing at my horizon / wing / enemy views.
I really thought the pitch ladder was introduced for testing rather than general gameplay. I do not use it and believe it would not make a difference to my game style or skill level so do not care if it is there or not. However, as V said, why do we have it in a WW2 based sim?
I'm with you here. When I am roping I look at my wing to check the vertical.
Never had a need for a pitch ladder in here.
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Now, I'm not a fan of having a pitch ladder in a WWII fighter to begin with
Amen to that, Sir. My first reaction to seeing this was "Ugh.. Really?!", and immediately shut it off. :huh
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Thought I had morfed into a cross bred WWII fighter and an F-16 at first. Using Track IR, I've never had trouble with my spatial orientation. Might be useful to brand new players in the TA though. :salute
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If I could just get a TD box to go with the Pitch ladder....that would be great.
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Reality vs. game has two sides of the same coin. While if you had the same peripheral vision in real life as in game this wouldn't be sufficient to get the medical required to fly a plane. On the other hand, being able to turn the head like what the coolie hat can do would qualify to present it at during a talent show on national TV.
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Peripheral vision is adjustable with the field of view setting.
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I understand all these points. I too thought it was a bit off(maybe a smidge lol) in a WW2 sim...BUT If it helps someone out and they stick with the game because of it? I am fine with that. They may just get to a point where they too will fly with it turned off. I don't see a problem with it as not sure what sort of advantage it would give someone over someone not using it. Just my $.02 Sure beats having 3rd person views available in all planes :uhoh
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Peripheral vision is adjustable with the field of view setting.
I don't have one of those with my eyeballs, I think we should get rid being able to adjust field of view also. Infact we should also get rid of zoom (Planes didn't have them), the hat switch (Planes didn't have them to move your head), the key board (planes didn't have them) ,the text buffer (Planes didn't have them). The auto pilot (planes didn't have them) .......... and everyone should have their head tied 3 inches from the screen to match the real FOV. And everyone only gets to die once in the game and never play again.
HiTech
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Wapow!!!
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Infact we should also get rid of zoom (Planes didn't have them), the hat switch (Planes didn't have them to move your head)
Now wait a minute. I flew one of those nice Air Combat USA Italian fighters, and it DID have a hat switch, and I could move my head (sometimes). So please don't take it out of this game.
- oldman (the pitch ladder may be a different topic, I know the Italian plane didn't have one of those)
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A real WWII airplane does not have a pitch ladder. But a real WWII airplane does have a bunch of sensory input that my computer chair does not. The pitch ladder and the zoom function help make up for that lack of sensory input. You lose some of that sensory input when you are in a cloud, so the pitch ladder disappears to simulate that loss. It's that simple.
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I don't have one of those with my eyeballs, I think we should get rid being able to adjust field of view also. Infact we should also get rid of zoom (Planes didn't have them), the hat switch (Planes didn't have them to move your head), the key board (planes didn't have them) ,the text buffer (Planes didn't have them). The auto pilot (planes didn't have them) .......... and everyone should have their head tied 3 inches from the screen to match the real FOV. And everyone only gets to die once in the game and never play again.
HiTech
That wasn't the question, sir.
The player suggested that the peripheral view setting in this game was so poor nobody could pass an FAA medical exam in real life. I simply pointed out that he was incorrect.
AH3 provides a field of view setting that is more than adequate to simulate the real world. (In fact, it is better than my own peripheral vision which is at least average.)
Reality vs. game has two sides of the same coin. While if you had the same peripheral vision in real life as in game this wouldn't be sufficient to get the medical required to fly a plane. On the other hand, being able to turn the head like what the coolie hat can do would qualify to present it at during a talent show on national TV.
Peripheral vision is adjustable with the field of view setting.
I backed you up here... :headscratch:
As for the rest, that's your call. If you can find a better way to simulate head movement without a hat switch and zoom (other than TrackIR) go for it. Obviously you make compromises for playability and nobody is beeping about that.
Also, there were autopilots in WWII. Crude and rudimentary but good enough. Again, dump them or change them if you wish based on plane type or any other criteria you choose. This is another game feature that doesn't really cross any lines as it simulates other means of achieving the same goal.
(A pitch ladder has nothing to do with any of these things and is a completely different topic. It is not really in the same discussion as head movement or peripheral vision IMO.)
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A real WWII airplane does not have a pitch ladder. But a real WWII airplane does have a bunch of sensory input that my computer chair does not. The pitch ladder and the zoom function help make up for that lack of sensory input. You lose some of that sensory input when you are in a cloud, so the pitch ladder disappears to simulate that loss. It's that simple.
There is nothing that a pitch ladder provides you don't already have in the game. A pitch ladder is a substitute for lack of SA.
Again, I don't care for it--thankfully it is an option not a requiremeant--but if Hitech wants it in the game so be it. If it helps noobs with their learning curve all the better. Developing good SA is probably tough for a kid who has never flown a plane, real or otherwise.
But we go back to Cav's point. If you're in the clouds press X. Pitch ladder? Who needs it when you have auto level and an AH?
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I don't have one of those with my eyeballs, I think we should get rid being able to adjust field of view also. Infact we should also get rid of zoom (Planes didn't have them), the hat switch (Planes didn't have them to move your head), the key board (planes didn't have them) ,the text buffer (Planes didn't have them). The auto pilot (planes didn't have them) .......... and everyone should have their head tied 3 inches from the screen to match the real FOV. And everyone only gets to die once in the game and never play again.
Maybe you can chime in with that comment when some of the community argues to have icons removed.
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Wapow!!!
For backing him up no less. :headscratch:
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In summary...Hitech said quit your bellyaching...he aint' changing chit.
Discuss all you want....its his ball and he is otw home.
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I guess so. :salute
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There is nothing that a pitch ladder provides you don't already have in the game. A pitch ladder is a substitute for lack of SA.
Again, I don't care for it--thankfully it is an option not a requiremeant--but if Hitech wants it in the game so be it. If it helps noobs with their learning curve all the better. Developing good SA is probably tough for a kid who has never flown a plane, real or otherwise.
But we go back to Cav's point. If you're in the clouds press X. Pitch ladder? Who needs it when you have auto level and an AH?
Because there are times when you might want to do something other than fly level?
I get where they're coming from with the info that's not available from this side of the screen and what he's accomplishing with it. That makes sense. I still choose to have it off because it messes with my Walter Mitty feelings. Digital speedometer is A-OK by me though! ;)
Wiley.
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It seems even more illogical to have one at all in a WWII fighter other than maybe offline or the TA. Not sure what the reasoning is except perhaps to help with the learning curve.
There is nothing that a pitch ladder provides you don't already have in the game. A pitch ladder is a substitute for lack of SA.
Again, I don't care for it--thankfully it is an option not a requiremeant--but if Hitech wants it in the game so be it. If it helps noobs with their learning curve all the better. Developing good SA is probably tough for a kid who has never flown a plane, real or otherwise.
But we go back to Cav's point. If you're in the clouds press X. Pitch ladder? Who needs it when you have auto level and an AH?
That wasn't the question, sir.
The player suggested that the peripheral view setting in this game was so poor nobody could pass an FAA medical exam in real life. I simply pointed out that he was incorrect.
AH3 provides a field of view setting that is more than adequate to simulate the real world. (In fact, it is better than my own peripheral vision which is at least average.)
I backed you up here... :headscratch:
I would not exactly call any of this backing me up.
Also I am curious how much flying vertical/aerobatic time in real planes you have?
HiTech
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Because there are times when you might want to do something other than fly level?
I get where they're coming from with the info that's not available from this side of the screen and what he's accomplishing with it. That makes sense. I still choose to have it off because it messes with my Walter Mitty feelings. Digital speedometer is A-OK by me though! ;)
Wiley.
I don't need a pitch ladder to know my orientation. Ever. The game provides all of that already.
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I would not exactly call any of this backing me up.
HiTech
Read the last entry.
That was direct support.
I would quote it all but I am not on a computer to do it. In any event..
The rest was my opinion that a pitch ladder isn't needed but that if you chose to include it to help new players that made sense. And that as long as it can be turned off it isn't a concern.
It's your game. Do what you think is best. But as for me the pitch ladder is superfluous as the game already provides sufficient visual cues for spatial orientation.
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I don't need a pitch ladder to know my orientation. Ever. The game provides all of that already.
While looking out the front windscreen of the plane? How?
Wiley.
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While looking out the front windscreen of the plane? How?
Wiley.
Reference to the horizon, something every
primary student is taught when learning to fly.
It's Basic Airmanship 101.
(Something I spent 1300+ hours teaching, FWIW.)
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Reference to the horizon, something every
primary student is taught when learning to fly.
It's Basic Airmanship 101.
(Something I spent 1300+ hours teaching, FWIW.)
Ok. So... looking out the front of the plane with standard FOV with your nose 75-80 degrees or higher, where's the horizon?
The point is, your body and peripheral vision is telling you a lot more about what's going on without you having to take your eyes off the front windscreen than we have available ingame.
Wiley.
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I would not exactly call any of this backing me up.
Also I am curious how much flying vertical/aerobatic time in real planes you have?
HiTech
You appended your quote.
You want L-39, T-34, T-28, Strikemaster, Citabria/Decathlon, or Aerobat?
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Ok. So... looking out the front of the plane with standard FOV with your nose 75-80 degrees or higher, where's the horizon?
The point is, your body and peripheral vision is telling you a lot more about what's going on without you having to take your eyes off the front windscreen than we have available ingame.
Wiley.
Depends on my pitch rate. Or I can glance sideways to see. No pitch ladder needed.
In game it's quite easy. You can turn your head like a bobblehead and you have no G-induced impacts.
Pitch ladder is superfluous. If you need it use it. It's your choice. I have no beef with you doing so.
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Depends on my pitch rate. I can glance sideways to see. No pitch ladder needed.
In game it's quite easy. You can turn your head like a bobblehead and you have no G-induced impacts.
Pitch ladder is superfluous.
Not what I said. Without moving your head ingame, how do you tell where the horizon is? You get the feel of when you're vertical in your body. The glance to the side is mostly verification.
Wiley.
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Not what I said. Without moving your head ingame, how do you tell where the horizon is? You get the feel of when you're vertical in your body. The glance to the side is mostly verification.
Wiley.
And as I said it depends on my pitch rate. I have a picture in my head that I keep when maneuvering. Unless I depart the airplane I know where I am. The game is quite good at this.
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And as I said it depends on my pitch rate.
Your pitch rate widens your field of view to see the horizon? That sounds like a glitch.
Wiley.
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Your pitch rate widens your field of view to see the horizon? That sounds like a glitch.
Wiley.
That's not what said.
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That's not what said.
Then how do you know where the horizon is looking out the front of the plane with your nose at 80 degrees ingame?
Wiley.
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Then how do you know where the horizon is looking out the front of the plane with your nose at 80 degrees ingame?
Wiley.
The continual picture I keep in my head. It's super easy in the game. No Gs. Noise. Bumps. Heat.
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The continual picture I keep in my head. It's super easy in the game. No Gs. Noise. Bumps. Heat.
Personally I look out the side, but that's not my point. IRL you don't have to do it. Like HT said, the ladder gives you the info a bit easier. That's all. I disagree with it being in a WWII game, but that's not my call.
Wiley.
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Personally I look out the side, but that's not my point. IRL you don't have to do it. Like HT said, the ladder gives you the info a bit easier. That's all. I disagree with it being in a WWII game, but that's not my call.
Wiley.
Agree with you for the most part. I don't think side glances are required here or in real life but they obviously help.
It's in the game and that's that. The Steam crowd will find it helpful until they get experience. If it keeps them playing then I am fine with it. :salute
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Agree with you for the most part. I don't think side glances are required here or in real life but they obviously help.
It's in the game and that's that. The Steam crowd will find it helpful until they get experience. If it keeps them playing then I am fine with it. :salute
The first time I flew instruments in cloud (real life) I was right seat and I couldn't tell which way was up or down or if I was even sideways. Air dynamics and gravity has a funny way of fooling the inner ear to which way is up - where the horizon is, and the ability to get lost in the clouds. Spatial disorientation can be the worst feeling ever for a novice pilot.
For me, by the time I was flying real life in the clouds, I already had a couple thousand hours of sim flying - and dozens flying looking down, not out. Back to the first time right seat, using my instruments only to navigate when flying IFR in the grey space came naturally. No panic and I found it easier to keep track flying from beacon to beacon, focus on readings - altimeter, VOR, speed, heading, and quickly checking for drift and icing. Didn't have the fancy GPS nav units we have today when I was practising to become a pilot. And looking outside in turbulent IFR flying did nothing to help me figure which way is up.
I think it's important to teach the same to any new pilot in the game. Flying in clouds is the next step in the evolution of learning how to fly. Don't like flying without your pitch ladder? Don't fly in clouds if you're not ready to use just your instruments.
I'm happy with the current implementation.
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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I am smart enough to understand that the millisecond saved by having the HUD pitch ladder displayed is an important advantage.
It is also the reason I own several power tools and reading glasses.
I could get by without them but the time saved is to my advantage.
I fly other software that doesn't have a pitch ladder. The graphics in the others are a couple generations ahead of AH, approaching photo realistic and there are still instances where the pitch ladder would have been of great benefit.
The pitch ladder is a substitute for much of the missing physical cues available in the real world, just like so many other things. It is certainly possible to get along with out it but it is a nice extra for beginners and a real advantage for a veteran smart enough to turn it on.
I agree it's a help to a noob. Having played this game (and WBs) for a decade it is just clutter to me. I'm getting my cues other ways. If it works for you then great. Perhaps I'm missing out by keeping it off, I don't know.
Everyone is different. Use what works for you.
Now if I could ever use TrackIR without feeling like I'm getting airsick I'd be onto something. The head movement doesn't match my own and it's REALLY disconcerting.
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Agree with you for the most part. I don't think side glances are required here or in real life but they obviously help.
If this is the case they why do they put reference frames on the wings of high performance aerobatic aircraft?
Personally the pitch ladder is a nonfactor for me,I turned it off right away,but that doesnt mean it doesnt have value.Mouse fliers likely could benefit from it as well as new players with little or no experience. It may even be a useful tool for training,although I have never attempted to do this myself!
Not sure what all the fuss is about,likely just the voices in the crowd that need to be heard,but since it's a users preference it really should be a nonfactor,I dont hear players screaming to remove the stall limiter so why should the pitch ladder be any different?
When I first heard pitch ladder I thought it was some sort of redneck drinking game...... Hold my beer and watch this!!!
:salute
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If this is the case they why to the put reference frames on the wings of high performance aerobatic aircraft?
Because they are competing for precision.
I said it isn't NECESSARY, but it helps.
I don't recall my friend Julie Clark's T-34 having anything on it like that, btw.
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A military trainer is hardly a high performance aerobatic aircraft!
BTW,I know the reason they have them,I merely stated this to point out that pilots often look left or right for reference. You stated that you didnt need to or found it of little value.
Now I fully expect you to nitpik my post and point out some obtuse thing to try to strengthen your position. Which really is no position as you dont care about the ladder as you dont use it.
Not really sure why this is even being discussed,other than Rodent wanting to know why it disappears in the clouds.
If AH was totally realistic,it would be much fun,no one would be around after the first sortie or 2!!!
:salute
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A military trainer is hardly a high performance aerobatic aircraft!
Tell that to Julie Clark and her T-34.
Or anyone who flies a T-6, T-28, T-33, T-37, T-45, etc. They're all high performance and aerobatic by design and classification.
I wonder if Bob Hoover needed stuff on the wings of his Shrike Commander... :noid Talk about restricted visibility. Whew.
BTW,I know the reason they have them,I merely stated this to point out that pilots often look left or right for reference. You stated that you didnt need to or found it of little value.
I said it was useful to look around but not required. I know my orientation without looking around because of the picture in my head. I look around constantly in flight but I know where my nose is pointed without looking sideways (or elsewhere). I also have an AH (Artificial Horizon) mentioned earlier in a pinch, but again, hardly ever used in this game, which is 99% VMC/VFR.
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I'll bet you a beer that when Julie pulls the nose above the horizon her eyes go to the left wingtip. :)
At least that is how I was taught. Once the horizon goes below the nose you lose a reference point, eyes on the left wingtip gives you pitch, yaw and roll info until the nose moves enough that you can again see the horizon over the nose.
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I'll bet you a beer that when Julie pulls the nose above the horizon her eyes go to the left wingtip. :)
At least that is how I was taught. Once the horizon goes below the nose you lose a reference point, eyes on the left wingtip gives you pitch, yaw and roll info until the nose moves enough that you can again see the horizon over the nose.
I've flown with her (we've been friends since I was 14 years old). She does a lot of stuff. She references the ground a LOT. NOTE: I don't pretend to know how she does what she does nor do I speak for her in any way.
Generally speaking, I agree with you. The wingtip is certainly useful in an airplane where you can actually see it. That said, I've done loops and unusual attitude recoveries (with a safety pilot) looking straight ahead. It is an important skill to learn.
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Tell that to Julie Clark and her T-34.
Or anyone who flies a T-6, T-28, T-33, T-37, T-45, etc. They're all high performance and aerobatic by design and classification.
<snip>
Wait a minute. Are we talking about the same T-34 trainer used by the military? The same two-seat, low wing, turbo prop plane? I have ridden in a few.
Every description of that plane I have read states it is a military trainer. I did not know if someone uses it for stunts it changes the classification of the plane. Is that normal? Design wise, where does it say it was designed to be a high performance, aerobatic plane?
Typically, I have noted the description of the plane as follows: The T-34 is an unpressurized two-seat, tandem cockpit low-wing turboprop trainer whose mission is to train military pilots.
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Design wise, where does it say it was designed to be a high performance, aerobatic plane?
The FAA would describe it as "high performance" because it has over 200HP. In the world of aerobatics it is on the low end of performance.
Julie Clark's T-34 is the piston engine variant....the turbine powered airplanes were later.
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The FAA would describe it as "high performance" because it has over 200HP. In the world of aerobatics it is on the low end of performance.
Julie Clark's T-34 is the piston engine variant....the turbine powered airplanes were later.
Correct.
To Skuzzy's question... One of its primary missions in the military was introduction to aerobatics for both pilots and (Navy) NFOs. +6G/-3G operating envelope (Beech designed it for +10G according to some sources).
Julie's is a T-34A with an uprated 300+ HP engine. As a civilian instructor with the USN she learned (and later taught) aerobatics--among other things--in T-34s.
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You can turn it into a shooting HUD but, you are on the hook to train yourself with it because it is not an active lead comp gunsight. And it works very well once you learn to use it. I'm surprised no one figured this out after all this time. But, most players have no clue how the historical gunsights I put in every plane work. The 100mph principle and angle off pursuit vector is actively described by the relationship of the HUD ladder to a reticle setup the way the one in the screen capture is. The green lead computing cross teaches you how to use them. But, unlike the real K14 A-C would be adjusted for, you have to practice with different MG or cannons to learn that relationship to the HUD and reticle. And just like the real K14 or lead computing gunsights, there is a G limit you can pull in a turn beyond which you cannot hit a thing.
(https://s20.postimg.org/6efc3o80d/PLad01.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.org/ssx0jwarx/PLad03.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.org/yftdhddal/PLad02.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.org/65hrdqv7x/PLad04.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.org/li1i7rudp/PLad06.jpg)