General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: molybdenum on July 01, 2017, 09:11:41 PM
Title: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: molybdenum on July 01, 2017, 09:11:41 PM
And I think bish dominance IS a problem, even though I'm usually bish: it's disheartening to many of the people on the other side when their team has little chance of winning. Sure, you win lots of maps; but is it a big picture win when in doing so you might lose players? There are a number of reasons the bish currently rule the AH universe, but numbers is the primary one. There are simply more bish on most of the time, especially in the early mornings US, and the necessary evil of ENY only partially addresses the issue. A horde and a little teamwork will usually overwhelm defenders; and if they don't, it's easy enough for the horde to regroup and attack someplace else (complaining about the crap planes and GVs they have to use as they do so) and try again. In my opinion the concept of chess piece loyalty compounds the problem. Among many (most?) players there is an aversion to flying against people you recently flew with, like it is a betrayal or something to do so. I frankly don't understand it but it's pervasive and nothing I say here or on country is likely to change it. But it matters. You have a pervasive imbalance in player numbers skewed towards the bish and neither ENY nor increased perk point earnage for a lower numbered side seems to make much difference. What MIGHT make a difference, however (bish squad leaders, I'm talking to YOU) is to take your squad to the nits or rooks next tour. Believe me, they have the same ratio of good guys to a-holes the bish do. Some of the people you found irritating as adversaries you'll find to be great to fly with as allies. The benefits are twofold. 1st, you break out of a potentially stale rut and find a fresh aspect to the game that might surprise and please you. And 2nd, you help make the game more dynamic; more balanced; more dramatic. Give it a shot! I'll be working on my own squaddies concerning this. Why don't you?
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Dace on July 01, 2017, 10:22:44 PM
So much truth here.
I've often thought, if just one of the big bish squads would switch, the numbers imbalance would be solved. It is , however, plain to see and if they haven't done it by now, they're likley not going to. I think they enjoy the numbers advantage they have all the time (probably the reason they joined a horde squad in the first place) and ENY is not enough of a deterrent to get them to change.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: atlau on July 01, 2017, 11:22:16 PM
This might be unpopular but how about each tour or every time the map is reset players are randomnly assigned to countries. Randomnly assign squads too to allow them to stay intact.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: The Fugitive on July 01, 2017, 11:33:06 PM
The Pigs and the 56th switched to the rooks when the knights were the team with the advantage. That evened up the side for a bit. I really dont see the Bish doing the same to even things up.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: ghi on July 01, 2017, 11:43:35 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Zener on July 02, 2017, 02:27:41 AM
Why try to force people to play a certain way?
If someone is so upset that they can't win a map, maybe they should do the side-switching instead of making everyone else go through some kind of swapperoo thing.
Imbalance is part of this game. Tell me the last time you flew into the area of an enemy held field - by yourself - and only one of their planes engaged you. Probably never; you usually get horded before you can say the word itself. It's that team's job to defend their base and there is nothing "balanced" about it. Eliminate all red icons - isn't that what one is supposed to do? So there will always be imbalance.
The planes and vehicles are not all equal either, yet some expect to be able to shoot down every bomber as though they were all the same and no matter the capabilities of their own ride; or for their plane to be invulnerable, faster, and out-turn everything else. But they don't, each has its own capabilities and that's why there are choices.
What of the people who have flown for every country and decided which one best suits their style of play? Should we ignore that or say it's invalid in some way? I don't think so.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Scca on July 02, 2017, 06:30:55 AM
Oddly, for a long time, Bish always had low numbers. The last several Bish rotations the AK's did, 262's were always cheap. Last month, it was high ENY during prime time.
Well, July first came, and we are now nit.
>
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Max on July 02, 2017, 07:15:00 AM
Oddly, for a long time, Bish always had low numbers. The last several Bish rotations the AK's did, 262's were always cheap. Last month, it was high ENY during prime time.
Well, July first came, and we are now nit. >
Until 6 months ago I was a Bish going back to 2003. Low numbers? Shirley you jest. :devil Now and again; perhaps but as a rule? No way.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: NatCigg on July 02, 2017, 08:28:39 AM
I flew knights for, i dont know, 7 years or so. was lots of good people. there was a lot of love for the team but also a good amount of hate for the bish and their "not quite ww2" type of gameplay. With time the knights also left the "ww2" type of gameplay yet kept the hate for bish. I was at a loss that "strike teams" could be so racist as to ignore the war (not to mention "ww2") just to hate on bish. I attribute it to lemmings and a terrible leader (hehe, kinda like Hitler and ww2). With time The Knights ability to play the game my way was lost, I was not alone. It was common knowledge the bish generaly play the game as a team more than others. As the game became worse and worse on knights there was no choice in my book other than to fight the hate and insanity the knights became, I went bish. The game has been much funner flying for bish and I believe the numbers show, others think similarly.
<S> Bish! Death to Knights!
:D
:salute
:airplane:
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: jimbo71 on July 02, 2017, 09:36:57 AM
Don't try logic & common sense on a bish. It only angers them. They're like trail horses, only know how to follow the arse in front of them... :old:
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: waystin2 on July 02, 2017, 09:52:15 AM
I will kill anything that is not a Pig. Especially bishop. :aok
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: pembquist on July 02, 2017, 02:28:18 PM
Let's change the names to Oceana, Eurasia, Eastasia. That way we'll all know who is TRULY evil.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: caldera on July 02, 2017, 02:34:37 PM
I flew knights for, i dont know, 7 years or so. was lots of good people. there was a lot of love for the team but also a good amount of hate for the bish and their "not quite ww2" type of gameplay. With time the knights also left the "ww2" type of gameplay yet kept the hate for bish. I was at a loss that "strike teams" could be so racist as to ignore the war (not to mention "ww2") just to hate on bish. I attribute it to lemmings and a terrible leader (hehe, kinda like Hitler and ww2). With time The Knights ability to play the game my way was lost, I was not alone. It was common knowledge the bish generaly play the game as a team more than others. As the game became worse and worse on knights there was no choice in my book other than to fight the hate and insanity the knights became, I went bish. The game has been much funner flying for bish and I believe the numbers show, others think similarly.
<S> Bish! Death to Knights!
:D
:salute
:airplane:
:rock :aok
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Ramesis on July 02, 2017, 02:51:38 PM
This might be unpopular but how about each tour or every time the map is reset players are randomnly assigned to countries. Randomnly assign squads too to allow them to stay intact.
-1
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Electroman on July 02, 2017, 03:16:48 PM
I flew knights for, i dont know, 7 years or so. was lots of good people. there was a lot of love for the team but also a good amount of hate for the bish and their "not quite ww2" type of gameplay. With time the knights also left the "ww2" type of gameplay yet kept the hate for bish. I was at a loss that "strike teams" could be so racist as to ignore the war (not to mention "ww2") just to hate on bish. I attribute it to lemmings and a terrible leader (hehe, kinda like Hitler and ww2). With time The Knights ability to play the game my way was lost, I was not alone. It was common knowledge the bish generaly play the game as a team more than others. As the game became worse and worse on knights there was no choice in my book other than to fight the hate and insanity the knights became, I went bish. The game has been much funner flying for bish and I believe the numbers show, others think similarly.
<S> Bish! Death to Knights!
:D
:salute
:airplane:
It's been good having you on Bish Nat! You are correct in your assessment of Bish and the "war" mentality. We also tend to evaluate more and see who needs hitting on. If we see Rooks are making a move closer to winning in percentage of base numbers they own...we'll focus on them to slow things up. Or sometimes if we see them having a lot of our bases but need a whack of NIT fields we'll go hit Nits to encourage them to start working them and slow the attack on us.
You see - some of us look at the bigger picture...not just who we hate most (although I do admit some nights a specific country pisses me off and I will target them relentlessly for that evening) :D
<S> to all but especially to my Bishlandians :D
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: SPKmes on July 02, 2017, 04:41:58 PM
This all may be true...however...the bish lately have really made me shake my head....instead of try win the war by fighting the third side they have just bullied and decimated the one side...why....because... well the only reason I can fathom is they don't actually want to play the game...seriously....take over 40% of a side and continue to take that same sides bases when the third side you have no bases of....it was/is just disgusting in my mind....That to me said it is about chest thumping....(after they pin one on that is)
I have no issue with players from all sides (well there are a couple ) as I often change and do my thing to the best of my ability...but the mentality of the last little while has really p'd me off... we want more players not less...sure I could have changed to the otherside and helped them...but before I change I look at the way the map sits...and honestly.... the stats I saw would have suggested that bish were going to roll the third side...but no...had I changed sides...they may have and then I would have been stuck on a side with no action again..... On the other side of things though...I have seen bish with huge numbers but getting nailed by both sides....this then destroys the myth of big numbers as they are actually halved which in some (many) cases means they actually have lower numbers.... but are fighting with what some decree as lesser planes...my personal opinion is bollocks hahaha... (high eny planes are just as dangerous...more so in some cases)
I think it would be refreshing for the big squads to rotate...this however can't and shouldn't be forced but it would be nice....
As always this is my opinion and should be viewed as that.... I see most views as pertinent..but sometimes make me think mmmmmmm
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Shuffler on July 02, 2017, 08:16:21 PM
I do not care if some folks are not capable of changing sides. Winning maps means nothing too me. Winning at fun is #1, winning at fights is #2, winning at keeping wife ack down is #3.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: 1stpar3 on July 02, 2017, 11:14:11 PM
Tongs, i get your point. I do have to say though that this happens alot on all sides periodically. The Bish(my homies) do, it seems, suffer from the hit one camp regardless thing a lot more often. Usually in payback. We get double teamed just as much as every otherside, especially on Fridays when the other countries have numbers,just before FSO. I dont believe it should be taken personal, although I know some that do :devil When the Bish are on their game and playing together, we can roll maps at will. Even with eny at 28, did it several times just Wed-Fri last week. My squad use to change countries ever month, like the AK's and some others. Numbers just got low in squad and we stuck with the Bish. Still hope to resume the change overs, soon. Alot of the not swapping issues are the simple fact, THAT several certain individuals will cause complete headaches for anyone that is willing to swap sides. It IS NOT the best way to encourage fair gameplay, in my opinion. I hate having to squelch most folk, even though it does work ok. Its when you rotate back that becomes an issue. Its hard to play as a team if a lot of your team mates are squelched because you swapped sides :uhoh It kind of defeats the purpose :headscratch:
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Zener on July 03, 2017, 03:12:32 AM
That's a very valid point too, 1stpar3. I've seen that kind of stuff go on and I've also seen some of the long-time players put a stop to the bashing over side switching, explaining that X squad or X player simply rotates around the countries on a regular basis. Makes you wonder what makes 'em take side switching as so automatically bad, as though it was a form of treason?
On the other hand, just recently saw a fellow countryman blow a gasket because players weren't doing this, doing that, basically following his war strategy. After much blathering on country channel about it, and threats to change sides :rofl he eventually did. I wonder how well he'll be received back should he decide to change back?
Sometimes you just want to have folks like that take a pill. It's a game fergoshsakes. Ya gets killed, up another whatever and just start again. It is disheartening to get rolled, but every side gets it now and then, so what? Personally I think skills get honed much better when it really counts, like saving a base at the last possible second where your firing MUST be dead on as opposed to six planes in on a single set of bombers turning them slowly into Swiss cheese flambe.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Chilli on July 03, 2017, 04:43:19 AM
I returned after a small absence, and within a very short time what the OP has noted was obvious. This may seem argumentative or maybe too simplified, but "Win the War" is DONE, OVER WITH, and KAPUT.
There is NO mechanism that will prevent free thinking customers from joining a side with advantage.
One possible solution, revamp Melee not to include change in territory ownership. Troops could change a town allegiance but not the airfield / ground vehicle base. Success of routinely timed staged missions, could be used to benefit country status instead of territory. In order to affect the change over of a map, at least 2 cycles of player heavy time zones should be allowed and something quantitative like the # of field strats / buildings damaged / # equipment used / damaged and perks awarded proportionally to all participating chess piece warriors.
Tons of ways to keep the players engaged by tying object / vehicle / plane destruction to rank, hierarchy, equipment or perks, however the mechanism works best.
This plays to the die hard players, as evident in the increase in numbers of lesser advantage sides ramping up to special event attendance,. If players must, then let them go to "capture the sheep".
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: stabbyy on July 03, 2017, 06:20:07 AM
everyone switch to bish then they have to switch... perfect solution
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Zygote404 on July 03, 2017, 06:39:50 AM
It's been good having you on Bish Nat! You are correct in your assessment of Bish and the "war" mentality. We also tend to evaluate more and see who needs hitting on. If we see Rooks are making a move closer to winning in percentage of base numbers they own...we'll focus on them to slow things up. Or sometimes if we see them having a lot of our bases but need a whack of NIT fields we'll go hit Nits to encourage them to start working them and slow the attack on us.
You see - some of us look at the bigger picture...not just who we hate most (although I do admit some nights a specific country pisses me off and I will target them relentlessly for that evening) :D
<S> to all but especially to my Bishlandians :D
Its more likely Bish have more strat players because they have the numbers advantage. Strategy players are very likely the first to change to a numbers advantaged country because its strategically better to have numbers.
Very likely if Rooks or Knights started to have numerical superiority over a period of time you'd start to see most strategy players moving to those. People, especially strategically minded people, hate losing repeatedly.
Me I'm kindof dumb, I fly early war planes and choose the weakest side because
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: BowHTR on July 03, 2017, 06:58:51 AM
Clearly you haven't met most of the Bish. They will whine and complain of ENY, and swapping is not an option for most of them.
Remove Bish :old: :ahand
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: The Fugitive on July 03, 2017, 08:58:58 AM
To me this is a combat game. You want my bases, fight for them. You want to stop me from grabbing your bases fight me, dont resupply :rolleyes: Then there is the win the war guys. You want to win the war then fight that way.
This past weekend, on the small isle map Knights and Bish had the rooks down to something like 40% of their fields left and were STILL avoiding each other. Id like to see a something kick in once a team hits 25% of an opposing teams bases the hardening of hangers and building starts going up. While it isnt a "stop" action it would make it harder and may get the attacking force to split and start pushing the issue on the other front. Fighting two hordes isn't fun for anyone. Using this weekend as an example it would have eased the attacks on Rooks maybe leaving a defending force to hold those fronts while the main group/horde moved to the other side of the map to push for the win.
While the Rooks could have continued to push to get bases back, even to the point of building their own horde on one front it still would have created more battles and that after all is what we are looking for right?
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: molybdenum on July 03, 2017, 09:37:55 AM
Its more likely Bish have more strat players because they have the numbers advantage. Strategy players are very likely the first to change to a numbers advantaged country because its strategically better to have numbers.
Very likely if Rooks or Knights started to have numerical superiority over a period of time you'd start to see most strategy players moving to those. People, especially strategically minded people, hate losing repeatedly.
I'm a strategy player but I'd tolerate losing 90% of the time as long as the team I was flying for was at least trying to win. All three sides get into a furball or grind-the-already-beaten-adversary-into-the-dust mentality at times, and when the bish do it's less frustrating for me to fly for the rooks, even though they'll very likely lose. And all three sides have their share of strategy players, but I think the bish in general are more map-win oriented. This attitude + numbers = bish wins most of the time.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Dace on July 03, 2017, 10:12:56 AM
Its more likely Bish have more strat players because they have the numbers advantage. Strategy players are very likely the first to change to a numbers advantaged country because its strategically better to have numbers.
Very likely if Rooks or Knights started to have numerical superiority over a period of time you'd start to see most strategy players moving to those. People, especially strategically minded people, hate losing repeatedly.
Me I'm kindof dumb, I fly early war planes and choose the weakest side because
This is the issue. Too many people took the easy road ( and switched to Bish ) when the going got tough. And all it did was compound the problem. Back in the days before the numbers decline there were a couple big squads per country. Big squads make it easier to gather a base taking horde or defend against one. As the numbers started to decline, the big squads of rook and knights faded away while the bish still had a few. Thus making it easier for the Bish to gather a horde and roll a map. As this goes on, all the "strategy" players of the rooks and knights think "man, this stinks getting horded all the time. I'll just switch to Bish and join the horde. Then I can be a winner too." I know at least 3 former knights personally that went this route. They couldn't stand getting horded all the time so they just said screw it and joined the horde.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Chilli on July 03, 2017, 10:30:33 AM
I'm a strategy player but I'd tolerate losing 90% of the time as long as the team I was flying for was at least trying to win. All three sides get into a furball or grind-the-already-beaten-adversary-into-the-dust mentality at times, and when the bish do it's less frustrating for me to fly for the rooks, even though they'll very likely lose. And all three sides have their share of strategy players, but I think the bish in general are more map-win oriented. This attitude + numbers = bish wins most of the time.
This is why "Win the War" is becoming moot. The strategy involved is likened to chess (balance assets and opportunities), yet the game being played is checkers (pile on with numbers and swing wildly), just with chess pieces.
Another prime example of counterproductive game play, hording of Tank Town bases. Any map, like that played on the last two days or so, which has a feature designed to offer optimal opportunity for quick and balanced ground wars, becomes the target of country griefers. In the case of the current bases they do not include maprooms and are easily taken when lightly defended during sparsely populated time zones. Due to that effort of a TINY portion of the community, none of the community get to enjoy its promising attributes.
If you don't know what sparsely populated time zones are or don't care please don't give me the why not defend/ re-take excuse. Besides, I did just that, took Lancasters and shut the base down, was lucky 4 or 5 other guys were cleaning up and one was wise enough to ditch and bring troops. The Tank Town spawns were retaken and a couple ran supplies to that base.
The result: Within 45 minutes it was lost and taking close to 1/3 of the entire country population to do - over, wasn't about to happen.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: wil3ur on July 03, 2017, 10:36:12 AM
I switch sides fairly regularly, especially if there's a big numbers imbalance, however I do tend to avoid the Bish, even with low numbers. There are a couple of squads on that side that believe that they are the premier squad in AH, and by proxy, should rule their country. Everyone else must bend to their whim and fly their missions or they get very very whiney on channel about people not helping. It got to the point where the few furballers such as myself over there were having fights intentionally ruined by these squads (flying in and flattening air bases) with no intention of actually taking the base just so they can say that the fights over, now join my mission. It left a bad taste in my mouth, and I've really avoided that country for the most part since. I understand it's not all Bish that do this, but they've got some very loud very whiney children who like to take their ball and leave if people don't play their way.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: nugetx on July 03, 2017, 10:36:52 AM
Quote
he strategy involved is likened to chess (balance assets and opportunities), yet the game being played is checkers (pile on with numbers and swing wildly), just with chess pieces.
But both of them have 2 sides not 3....... :neener:
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Chilli on July 03, 2017, 10:42:17 AM
I'm a strategy player but I'd tolerate losing 90% of the time as long as the team I was flying for was at least trying to win. All three sides get into a furball or grind-the-already-beaten-adversary-into-the-dust mentality at times, and when the bish do it's less frustrating for me to fly for the rooks, even though they'll very likely lose. And all three sides have their share of strategy players, but I think the bish in general are more map-win oriented. This attitude + numbers = bish wins most of the time.
I like to look for the largest enemy darbar and go there. It is usually where the fight is. Sometimes the fight is just one base over from where a huge bar is.
Still the absolute best is when a CV is just off shore. All quick, low and digging over the water.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: 1stpar3 on July 03, 2017, 04:10:22 PM
Maybe I should have said Chinese Checkers (haven't played that since I was very young man). Then I would have only been half wrong :police:
There is a GREAT MEMORY! I loved Chinese Checkers! Even if it was just me and Sis! Play 2 or 3 sides and really beat her to a pulp :devil Its only half my personality to do so...SHE did whine so well,seemed a shame not to encourage her talent :uhoh Good to see you back CHILLI, sorry I killed you first thing...really am :O Didnt expect the La-5 to be you :rock
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: RufusLeaking on July 04, 2017, 08:49:03 AM
How is Bish dominance defined? Winning maps? It is a good day when large dar bars are within a short hop. Base taking is reason for action. Having a victory condition drives the strategy, which drives the tactics. If the Bish win, so be it. :salute
On chess piece loyalty, I confess that I have been a Rook for years. It is not sacred. I have got to know some good guys in the virtual sense. Roughly knowing which folks are reliable is much less frustrating. Over time, there are people on the other sides that I often cuss when they shoot me down. Childish of me, but it gets me motivated to try to hunt them down. I should probably salute more often, especially those that are better at this game than me. :salute
None of this is a problem. The biggest problem is that I don't have enough time to play. :bhead
In the end, people should be able to play as they wish. Forced side switching is a bad idea. :old:
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: bustr on July 04, 2017, 01:11:51 PM
Sucks big time when one side uses a hoard as a war wining tool to do exactly that, Win a war. It doubly sucks when it happens with the low arena numbers we are at because it's more intense and blatantly obvious what is beating you, Numbers. In the old days of 400-600 the hoards avoided each other and they were about the same size. Back then there was enough side activity that you could roll with the hoard or take part in smaller actions. Many lone wolf types took advantage of the hoards to land huge kill strings.
I doubt today as many people play this game for pure air combat. Seems many play for the activities they can get into with all of the toys, while one might venture the more energetic flip the map types are moving over to the bish. My squad was knights for the last 10 years and in the last 6 months moved to the rooks in the hopes of balancing ENY. Both sides seem devoid of energetic flip the map types. The knights have more numbers than the rooks, but the bish have almost equal numbers to both the knights and rooks at times.
In this game numbers kick qualitie's kester and flips maps. Leroy Jenkins has been avenged.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 04, 2017, 01:46:07 PM
Sucks big time when one side uses a hoard as a war wining tool to do exactly that, Win a war. It doubly sucks when it happens with the low arena numbers we are at because it's more intense and blatantly obvious what is beating you, Numbers. In the old days of 400-600 the hoards avoided each other and they were about the same size. Back then there was enough side activity that you could roll with the hoard or take part in smaller actions. Many lone wolf types took advantage of the hoards to land huge kill strings.
I doubt today as many people play this game for pure air combat. Seems many play for the activities they can get into with all of the toys, while one might venture the more energetic flip the map types are moving over to the bish. My squad was knights for the last 10 years and in the last 6 months moved to the rooks in the hopes of balancing ENY. Both sides seem devoid of energetic flip the map types. The knights have more numbers than the rooks, but the bish have almost equal numbers to both the knights and rooks at times.
In this game numbers kick qualitie's kester and flips maps. Leroy Jenkins has been avenged.
The best way to stop so many hoarding is for smaller maps, which has a smaller area to play in. Then you could have the same amount of bases you normally have, but just closer together so that they all fit. With closer back bases on a smaller map, players have the ability to defend from a back base a lot easier. This can have a big impact on limiting the hoard. Right now, you got bases that take 15 minutes to fly to, this creates high cons, secondly, it creates a team of hoarders to attack a base so they can take it down before the town pops. Thirdly, it creates long boring flights which mean high alt fights, which means normally the attack squad is going to already be 15K. This means the attack squad will have the #s and alt to pick off the lower defenders, then the cap comes. With shorter bases distances. Your team would have a much better opportunity at base defending in planes, rather than just roll Wirbles, 88s, or resupply.
If you look at Louches #s, you will see that the majority of players do spend on average 42% of their time in fighters, and like he said, some players, including myself, only get in these vehicles or bombers when there are no fights at all.
People have left because A. It takes too long to fly to a base for 1-2 (maybe enemies according the to dar). Players don't like aimlessly flying around for 20 minutes looking for a guy to shoot. This has been brutal for the off hours because this type of game play is slow, players have logged because it's slow and that makes it even slower. The hoards get created because when you have to fly 20 minutes to a base, it takes a good amount of people or no opposition to actually capture the field. This creates hoards. So, what I think would work better is, no manual resupply, just let teams capture bases if they get it down. This would change the fronts a little more quickly, and allow for more fights in the back part of the maps as well. With closer bases the defenders would be able to get to their base more quickly and stop the hoard. This would bring more fighting and less ganging/hoarding overall.
Btw, bustr, I think right now you are on the right track for the current maps you are working on. But I just think the fronts and bases should be 17 miles apart and just stick in more bases if you need to. It's fine if one team takes base after after base in the off hours, the shorter base distances will create better fights and probably stop so much hoarding. During the off hours especially, the players need to be pushed into a much smaller arena. The game play would be so much more enjoyable.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: The Fugitive on July 04, 2017, 02:00:41 PM
The best way to stop so many hoarding is for smaller maps, which has a smaller area to play in. Then you could have the same amount of bases you normally have, but just closer together so that they all fit. With closer back bases on a smaller map, players have the ability to defend from a back base a lot easier. This can have a big impact on limiting the hoard. Right now, you got bases that take 15 minutes to fly to, this creates high cons, secondly, it creates a team of hoarders to attack a base so they can take it down before the town pops. Thirdly, it creates long boring flights which mean high alt fights, which means normally the attack squad is going to already be 15K. This means the attack squad will have the #s and alt to pick off the lower defenders, then the cap comes. With shorter bases distances. Your team would have a much better opportunity at base defending in planes, rather than just roll Wirbles, 88s, or resupply.
If you look at Louches #s, you will see that the majority of players do spend on average 42% of their time in fighters, and like he said, some players, including myself, only get in these vehicles or bombers when there are no fights at all.
People have left because A. It takes too long to fly to a base for 1-2 (maybe enemies according the to dar). Players don't like aimlessly flying around for 20 minutes looking for a guy to shoot. This has been brutal for the off hours because this type of game play is slow, players have logged because it's slow and that makes it even slower. The hoards get created because when you have to fly 20 minutes to a base, it takes a good amount of people or no opposition to actually capture the field. This creates hoards. So, what I think would work better is, no manual resupply, just let teams capture bases if they get it down. This would change the fronts a little more quickly, and allow for more fights in the back part of the maps as well. With closer bases the defenders would be able to get to their base more quickly and stop the hoard. This would bring more fighting and less ganging/hoarding overall.
Btw, bustr, I think right now you are on the right track for the current maps you are working on. But I just think the fronts and bases should be 17 miles apart and just stick in more bases if you need to. It's fine if one team takes base after after base in the off hours, the shorter base distances will create better fights and probably stop so much hoarding. During the off hours especially, the players need to be pushed into a much smaller arena. The game play would be so much more enjoyable.
Saturday we had NDilse up, one of the original SMALL maps we have. Rooks were being horded from both sides and down to 40% of their bases left. Kinda blows your "idea" out of the water.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 04, 2017, 02:01:08 PM
The best way to stop so many hoarding is for smaller maps, which has a smaller area to play in. Then you could have the same amount of bases you normally have, but just closer together so that they all fit. With closer back bases on a smaller map, players have the ability to defend from a back base a lot easier. This can have a big impact on limiting the hoard. Right now, you got bases that take 15 minutes to fly to, this creates high cons, secondly, it creates a team of hoarders to attack a base so they can take it down before the town pops. Thirdly, it creates long boring flights which mean high alt fights, which means normally the attack squad is going to already be 15K. This means the attack squad will have the #s and alt to pick off the lower defenders, then the cap comes. With shorter bases distances. Your team would have a much better opportunity at base defending in planes, rather than just roll Wirbles, 88s, or resupply.
If you look at Louches #s, you will see that the majority of players do spend on average 42% of their time in fighters, and like he said, some players, including myself, only get in these vehicles or bombers when there are no fights at all.
People have left because A. It takes too long to fly to a base for 1-2 (maybe enemies according the to dar). Players don't like aimlessly flying around for 20 minutes looking for a guy to shoot. This has been brutal for the off hours because this type of game play is slow, players have logged because it's slow and that makes it even slower. The hoards get created because when you have to fly 20 minutes to a base, it takes a good amount of people or no opposition to actually capture the field. This creates hoards. So, what I think would work better is, no manual resupply, just let teams capture bases if they get it down. This would change the fronts a little more quickly, and allow for more fights in the back part of the maps as well. With closer bases the defenders would be able to get to their base more quickly and stop the hoard. This would bring more fighting and less ganging/hoarding overall.
Btw, bustr, I think right now you are on the right track for the current maps you are working on. But I just think the fronts and bases should be 17 miles apart and just stick in more bases if you need to. It's fine if one team takes base after after base in the off hours, the shorter base distances will create better fights and probably stop so much hoarding. During the off hours especially, the players need to be pushed into a much smaller arena. The game play would be so much more enjoyable.
Smaller maps will not stop hording or control it in any way. Anyone that remembers VoD on the small Euro map in AW will attest that small maps do not stop hording bases. If it did, AW would have never needed zone limits on bases.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 04, 2017, 02:10:29 PM
Saturday we had NDilse up, one of the original SMALL maps we have. Rooks were being horded from both sides and down to 40% of their bases left. Kinda blows your "idea" out of the water.
Ehh, most of the bases are still 25 miles apart but it has still produced the best fights in a while considering. My opinion is that there needs to be smaller maps for the current #s, along with shorter base distances. You could use a very small map, with 40 mile apart bases, and it would still be boring.
Smaller maps will not stop hording or control it in any way. Anyone that remembers VoD on the small Euro map in AW will attest that small maps do not stop hording bases. If it did, AW would have never needed zone limits on bases.
Smaller maps will work, but they need shorter base distances, that is the real key. We need maps that funnel the action better. The majority of players that have left for actual game play do so because it has gotten too slow. Shorter base distances would great increase the action, especially during the off hours. I think Festers map worked great, even though it was a bigger map, simply because the bases funneled action and the bases weren't light years apart. Far away bases make the hoard much worse and makes the game play more stale. This is something I've felt since I first started the game and I still think it's an issue for most people playing the game.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 04, 2017, 02:27:38 PM
In all fairness, team coordination is the most realistic way to win battles and stop hoards, or create hoards. But those are things that cannot always be done. The VH should be the first thing that goes down, but team coordination can be a very challenging effort as players are free to do what they want.
I'm just pointing out things that I think are real reasons why hoarding and ganging has become so prevelant, and why #s have dropped because of specific game play issues that cause either A, boredom or B, frustration.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Biggamer on July 04, 2017, 03:15:56 PM
Bish win wars because they help when you ask for it. ive flown for all sides and when you ask for help to hit strats or take a base on rooks or knights you are wasting your time because you aint gonna get any.
most knights fly fighters most rooks drive tanks. the problem is bombers win wars and thats what most bish fly. you wanna win wars up 10 sets of lancs and put 10 in M3s on the ground you get 2k out from map room spread troops out everywhere and watch the fighters crash and run out bullets trying to stop them. and you will roll bases all day day long not much they can do about it except like it. and you dont even really need them many but it look pretty and its very powerful.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: 1ijac on July 04, 2017, 04:23:47 PM
Smaller maps will not stop hording or control it in any way. Anyone that remembers VoD on the small Euro map in AW will attest that small maps do not stop hording bases. If it did, AW would have never needed zone limits on bases.
Ahhh, the VOD, B85, a vulcher's and furballer's paradise. The Czs would complain, because the Azs and the Bzs would slug it out there and they didn't have anyone to fight. Thanks for stimulating some good memories Ack-ack.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Lusche on July 04, 2017, 04:41:27 PM
Plat Principal: Soup de louches & fromage :banana:
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: bustr on July 04, 2017, 05:52:05 PM
Here soon we will get to see if DmonSlyr is correct about setting as many airfields as possible as close together as possible. This terrain is the smallest Hitech will allow in the Melee arena, 10x10. The majority of airfields are the minimum Hitech will allow with an exception for three of them. The minimum is 3\4 of a sector or 19miles. The three in the center island are a copy of the three small airfields on the center of NDilses. They are 13 miles from each other.
I'm betting this terrain will get rolled by the bish mini hoard in one day who do not care about ACM or furballing. The bases are close together to get at the bad guys quicker, if they want to furball instead of flip the map as fast as possible which placing airfields closer together helps the hoard to do faster. But hey, the bases will be closer together, hoorahhh.....
You can see I have a number of islands left to create mountains on before I get to lay down bases and test upping a plane from everything possible and spawning a GV from every single base to every single spawn. I suspect few of you wonders what is really involved in creating even a small terrain.
Arguing over who's assumptions are correct doesn't get this built. The white 1x1 mile place holders for small airfields are 13 miles apart. And just like on NDisles the map room will be on the grass near the tower. That's Waffle's 2x2 tank town object from NDisles, Hitech says he likes the idea of using indestructible bridges as GV choke points to create combat. Nice canals to lay bridges over and to furball over. I still have days of testing when I finally lay down airfields on this island if my design assumption here works when I finally get a GV on the ground. This screen shot is my 5th complete rebuild from the ground up of the 10 mile center diameter of the island.
If you think this is a finished bit of work and you want to share how I "should" make it better. There is another day or two of cosmetic finishing work on the cliff faces which was the only way to get the water way cracks from the base of them to look right. Originaly those cliff faces didn't exist and were runoff canyons into the center. Since those faces are 1900ft, the cracks with water in the bottom looked like crap and I couldn't get the bridges to span them correctly. So this last rebuild I just reduced the center 10mile circle to 25ft and went from there. Who knows what will really work in the Melee arena, I do know if someone isn't going through this crapola, nothing ever gets moved forward in this game.
The Pigs and the 56th switched to the rooks when the knights were the team with the advantage. That evened up the side for a bit. I really dont see the Bish doing the same to even things up.
Possibly due to the fact that the bish are still double-teamed by the rooks and gnats who love to take bish bases, but only furball each other. We FIGHT! The only reason there are rooks and gnats is because bish FIGHT -- BOTH fronts.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 04, 2017, 07:34:37 PM
Here soon we will get to see if DmonSlyr is correct about setting as many airfields as possible as close together as possible. This terrain is the smallest Hitech will allow in the Melee arena, 10x10. The majority of airfields are the minimum Hitech will allow with an exception for three of them. The minimum is 3\4 of a sector or 19miles. The three in the center island are a copy of the three small airfields on the center of NDilses. They are 13 miles from each other.
I'm betting this terrain will get rolled by the bish mini hoard in one day who do not care about ACM or furballing. The bases are close together to get at the bad guys quicker, if they want to furball instead of flip the map as fast as possible which placing airfields closer together helps the hoard to do faster. But hey, the bases will be closer together, hoorahhh.....
You can see I have a number of islands left to create mountains on before I get to lay down bases and test upping a plane from everything possible and spawning a GV from every single base to every single spawn. I suspect few of you wonders what is really involved in creating even a small terrain.
Arguing over who's assumptions are correct doesn't get this built. The white 1x1 mile place holders for small airfields are 13 miles apart. And just like on NDisles the map room will be on the grass near the tower. That's Waffle's 2x2 tank town object from NDisles, Hitech says he likes the idea of using indestructible bridges as GV choke points to create combat. Nice canals to lay bridges over and to furball over. I still have days of testing when I finally lay down airfields on this island if my design assumption here works when I finally get a GV on the ground. This screen shot is my 5th complete rebuild from the ground up of the 10 mile center diameter of the island.
If you think this is a finished bit of work and you want to share how I "should" make it better. There is another day or two of cosmetic finishing work on the cliff faces which was the only way to get the water way cracks from the base of them to look right. Originaly those cliff faces didn't exist and were runoff canyons into the center. Since those faces are 1900ft, the cracks with water in the bottom looked like crap and I couldn't get the bridges to span them correctly. So this last rebuild I just reduced the center 10mile circle to 25ft and went from there. Who knows what will really work in the Melee arena, I do know if someone isn't going through this crapola, nothing ever gets moved forward in this game.
I do like the layout here. I think it will be a good one.
Y'all don't be mistaken that I want the maps to be like really tiny. I think Midnao, or Montis, and Ndsils, are about the size I'm thinking. I do think the 19 mile bases will generate a lot more furballish action, which really will bring a lot of fighter excitement back to the players.
I'm glad you are willing to at least attempt to make the distance shorter. It's a step, I think in the right direction.
No, it's not the key. The bases were close together and it did not stop the hording in any fashion.
Honestly, in certain times hoarding happens and it's just apart of the game. There probably is no real solution to preventing massive hoarding. And didn't airworrior only have 2 sides? I actually do like the 3 sided teams better. I just happen to think that if you and boys can't roll from a capped hoarded base, a short flight distance from a back field can allow y'all to roll and get their more quickly to break the cap before they take it. I think in many cases, the back field is so far away that players don't want to spend the time flying to their base to defend it, or it gets captured in the time it takes to get there. I just think logically it would make more sense to tackle the hoarding problem.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: atlau on July 04, 2017, 09:04:04 PM
Aw had 3 sides
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Zener on July 04, 2017, 09:17:32 PM
There is no size map you are going to make that is magically going to make furballs happen and make more people want to fly into dogfights all night. Now I primarily fly bombers, it's what I prefer, but I like to hop in a fighter now and then because frankly I'm not very good at it and I learn something new every time I get killed - which is often. I don't mind the fight even if I get waxed.
Quote
I'm betting this terrain will get rolled by the bish mini hoard in one day who do not care about ACM or furballing.
I'm sure today's Rook-rolling must have upset you greatly. :rolleyes: Many of us DO care about ACM, or at least trying to learn it and practice it, but it's actions, not maps, that discourage them.
What discourages me from wanting to do it over and over is not the better pilots I fly against but it's that wherever there are some good fights to be found, inevitably the astronaut corsair or 190 or Yak will come in and hover long enough until you're committed into an offensive or defensive maneuver and simply pick you off. Many complain about 88s being used at a field, but frankly how is that any different? I'll fly back but after 3 or 4 times being picked - that's enough for me, I'll go bomb strats or get in a gv.
Point is, if you want fights, don't do the things that make people say to hell with it, why up into 3 ponies orbiting at 15K? Or a wagon wheel of 190s so high they need space suits?
You want to encourage dogfights - stop the constant picking from 4-8K above the fight and I believe you'd see more of them whether the map was an acre or a postage stamp.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: NatCigg on July 04, 2017, 09:32:15 PM
True story. Funny thing is, it was written long ago. If a fighter jock wanted more fights he could stop shooting. Or maybe blow his e and invite the enemy to play. Maybe, if it's just a "furball" a jock could watch the fight vs. clear it. It may supprise you but this is how i roll, often resulting in a 4 vs 1 at a enemy base :rock much fun, especially when i win. :joystick: p.s. I die alots.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: molybdenum on July 04, 2017, 09:49:10 PM
Bish win wars because they help when you ask for it. ive flown for all sides and when you ask for help to hit strats or take a base on rooks or knights you are wasting your time because you aint gonna get any.
That hasn't been my experience since I've been flying for the rooks the past week. They (at one point down to ~50% of their original bases) won ndsiles today in large part because of cooperative game play and doing what needed to be done when the need became evident. When numbers are equal--as they were most of today--focus, determination, and playing smart wins the day.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: popeye on July 05, 2017, 08:08:20 AM
Who knows what will really work in the Melee arena, I do know if someone isn't going through this crapola, nothing ever gets moved forward in this game. (https://s20.postimg.org/vpwelp5hp/oceania133.jpg)
Thanks for all the effort, Bustr. It's looking very promising. :salute
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: popeye on July 05, 2017, 08:13:34 AM
Point is, if you want fights, don't do the things that make people say to hell with it
Yes.
Like capturing the fields on "furball island" of NDisles. :O
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: JunkyII on July 05, 2017, 09:33:29 AM
Not a single loyal bish player is good 1v1...which is why they often group up and attack where there are no defenders...that's not dominance, that's just avoiding a real fight.....cool they take some bases but they don't experience the best of parts of Aces High.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: waystin2 on July 05, 2017, 09:52:04 AM
Possibly due to the fact that the bish are still double-teamed by the rooks and gnats who love to take bish bases, but only furball each other. We FIGHT! The only reason there are rooks and gnats is because bish FIGHT -- BOTH fronts.
Incorrect. We are greedy and did not want to share all those grouped up scaredy-cat Bishop with the high numbered Knight side. So we swapped to the lower numbered Rooks. Nothing really changed though, the Bishop still scatter, run and die when the Pigs show up. :aok
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: TWCAxew on July 05, 2017, 10:06:32 AM
rofl junky...
when is the next koth? I will see if I can wake up at 4 am for you to show ya how i woop your but :cheers:
DutchVII
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Shuffler on July 05, 2017, 11:05:01 AM
Possibly due to the fact that the bish are still double-teamed by the rooks and gnats who love to take bish bases, but only furball each other. We FIGHT! The only reason there are rooks and gnats is because bish FIGHT -- BOTH fronts.
Funny how each side complains the other two board them.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Wiley on July 05, 2017, 11:08:27 AM
Funny how each side complains the other two board them.
All sides get 2xteamed; maybe the bish a little more than the others, but not by much. It's simply more obvious when you are being 2xteamed than it is when you are one of the teamers (word?). Hence the sense of being on the side that always gets picked on.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: bustr on July 05, 2017, 12:19:32 PM
We may be in a lemonade making moment. The bish acting as a hoard means some numbers in the game and activity to fight against. Getting your feelings hurt repeatedly by the bish hoard I doubt will chase people out of the game. It will PO people into wanting revenge before they decide they don't want any part of the bish POing them and leave. You really do want players on the knights and rooks to get tribal about wanting revenge against the bish hordlings.
This game has ever been about wanting to dish it back with extra nasty on the side. It's human nature and the heart of competitive games. It's why Hitech's hangers are full of revenge. The knights and rooks need a dose of wake up and get even, otherwise we don't have a game. Just kids doing hoard beat downs on old guys who won't defend their self respect. Yeah I know 200 will get toxic and guys will go for the virtual jugular. If you don't have that in this kind of a game, you don't have a reason to get out of the tower. The real fun is doing it as a group, and you can measure the fun level by how colorful range channel gets. It's the same in all three countries. Since POTW came over to the rooks, range has been kind of like listening to old guys sitting on the porch with a few exceptions like POTW and the 56th.
The fact that the bish are consistently getting a hoard together must mean they are having fun on range talking smack about the useless old guys on the knights and rooks. And as far as I've observed, the rooks are living up to the smack talk. Not sure if the knights are as porch bound as the rooks are. Someone's going to crack and get all tribal on the bish here eventually.... :O
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Randy1 on July 05, 2017, 12:40:23 PM
All the countries horde at one time or other. Hording is fun as you keep taking bases.
Now it is not so much fun being horded. The worst of course is being horded by the two other countries at the same time.
In my thoughts, game play would sure suck if the sides were evenly balanced all of the time.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Chilli on July 05, 2017, 12:49:16 PM
Good comments for the most part in this thread. But to refresh the OP's request for suggestion to enforce the ENY single country overpopulation, I remain convinced that it will NOT happen as long as "land grab" territory capture is the main driving force.
I go even further and say until capture of enemy territory is removed completely, you will have two opposing sides in a three way battle:
Side one, wishes to take territory and show dominance by completing strategic task and overwhelming force. Side two, wishes to show dominance by "boasting" of superior skills and landing accomplishments in lights.
The consternation is that both sides (defined above) exist in all 3 sides (chess pieces).
My suggestion to remove the "land grab" equalizes the chess pieces by extinguishing the easiest piece of the puzzle to obtain through numbers. Risky? Yes, but I would bet well worth it. Again, I point to FSO and special event attendance. If the goal were to simply damage the opponent's property (strategic resources, hangars, vehicles and equipment) without land grab, smaller groups would be more beneficial and YES, combat would increase.
Please dispute.......... :noid
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: NatCigg on July 05, 2017, 01:03:22 PM
We may be in a lemonade making moment. The bish acting as a hoard means some numbers in the game and activity to fight against. Getting your feelings hurt repeatedly by the bish hoard I doubt will chase people out of the game. It will PO people into wanting revenge before they decide they don't want any part of the bish POing them and leave. You really do want players on the knights and rooks to get tribal about wanting revenge against the bish hordlings.
This game has ever been about wanting to dish it back with extra nasty on the side. It's human nature and the heart of competitive games. It's why Hitech's hangers are full of revenge. The knights and rooks need a dose of wake up and get even, otherwise we don't have a game. Just kids doing hoard beat downs on old guys who won't defend their self respect. Yeah I know 200 will get toxic and guys will go for the virtual jugular. If you don't have that in this kind of a game, you don't have a reason to get out of the tower. The real fun is doing it as a group, and you can measure the fun level by how colorful range channel gets. It's the same in all three countries. Since POTW came over to the rooks, range has been kind of like listening to old guys sitting on the porch with a few exceptions like POTW and the 56th.
The fact that the bish are consistently getting a hoard together must mean they are having fun on range talking smack about the useless old guys on the knights and rooks. And as far as I've observed, the rooks are living up to the smack talk. Not sure if the knights are as porch bound as the rooks are. Someone's going to crack and get all tribal on the bish here eventually.... :O
From what ive seen of bish in the last year is multiple people/groups playing strategically across the map. when someone needs help they ask and generally get it. A bish "horde" could be a squad wolfpack or could be a somewhat organized team brought together by a arm chair general. scheduled pickup missions are rare, it is front line fighting (pick up horde; this is how a knight horde probably works since "strike teams" have petered out.) and armchair generals guiding the team as described in sentence one. when numbers are up, some squad leaders will post missions but struggle to get numbers considering the ongoing battle. Other squad wolfpacks work rather silently, kinda like the pigs, save that playing the war remains the overriding target.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Zoney on July 05, 2017, 01:04:49 PM
Good comments for the most part in this thread. But to refresh the OP's request for suggestion to enforce the ENY single country overpopulation, I remain convinced that it will NOT happen as long as "land grab" territory capture is the main driving force.
I go even further and say until capture of enemy territory is removed completely, you will have two opposing sides in a three way battle:
Side one, wishes to take territory and show dominance by completing strategic task and overwhelming force. Side two, wishes to show dominance by "boasting" of superior skills and landing accomplishments in lights.
The consternation is that both sides (defined above) exist in all 3 sides (chess pieces).
My suggestion to remove the "land grab" equalizes the chess pieces by extinguishing the easiest piece of the puzzle to obtain through numbers. Risky? Yes, but I would bet well worth it. Again, I point to FSO and special event attendance. If the goal were to simply damage the opponent's property (strategic resources, hangars, vehicles and equipment) without land grab, smaller groups would be more beneficial and YES, combat would increase.
Please dispute.......... :noid
how long does the damage last? when does it reset? where is the win? A "one life" try to be as "real" as we can concept works for fso. there is a lot that goes into making "real" a possibility. If missions were incorporated into the game, where people sat around for twenty minutes waiting to start "we" could have some fun. I dont see that game passing the test of time. Also, without a "war" or ability to "win" your looking at a glorified D.A., I dont see it passing the test of time.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: 1stpar3 on July 05, 2017, 03:04:17 PM
how long does the damage last? when does it reset? where is the win? A "one life" try to be as "real" as we can concept works for fso. there is a lot that goes into making "real" a possibility. If missions were incorporated into the game, where people sat around for twenty minutes waiting to start "we" could have some fun. I dont see that game passing the test of time. Also, without a "war" or ability to "win" your looking at a glorified D.A., I dont see it passing the test of time.
Great point Nat! I think the "WIN" is a key part of the game! Like the last scenario, it was some of the best fun I have had in a long time but it was lacking in one way. Was hard to tell who won! That wasnt the driving force of a scenario and worked fine, it is a bit different. Winning, no matter how YOU define it for yourself IS the main driver of any game, imo. Whether its killing everyone and landing your kills...saving a base from capture or even retaliating in an 88 after being picked on the runway. Its the differences of game winning and how it is defined by each player, that makes our "Virtual World" keep spinning :aok Like yesterday, yes, I was getting slaughtered left and right...DANG you 2cmex and your N1k and Rud3 and others. BUT then got into a really fun and glorious fight with Jimmyc, Spixteen on Spixteen, down and dirty! Hard pulls and max rudder to keep from smacking the water. Dodging picks from Bricker and Rud3, Humbldt and others. Dug in like a tick I was, wasnt going to let Jimmyc loose(Cause he reversed and killed me last time I broke from the fight) untill either I crashed or or he did! I finally got his wing and then lost mine to Rud3 :mad: But MAN, hands sweating and heart beating, followed by a message from Jimmyc! Wow, man, That was great! I couldnt shake you SALUTE :rock That was BIG FUN. Sometimes you just have to let the fun FIND YOU! Salute all you guys that made it happen, even YOU RUD3 :neener:
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Chilli on July 05, 2017, 03:56:54 PM
Sorry, NatCigg, but none of what you referred to was implied, so let me clarify.
Object repair time could be the same as always been. If instead of % territory, total amount of damage (however calculated) would be independent of how many times it was repaired.
Flipping a map could have unlimited number of possibilities of how theycould determine map win. However it is done, win should promote some exposure of players to combat and not hide them like frequently is the case in the resupply by nearly invisible ground vehicles, to undo the cooperative progress of 5 or greater number of opposing forces.*
*The mere reason that I am here wasting 30 minutes of my time reading a bulletin board is, it is preferrable to wasting another 30 minutes waiting outside of town with troops, watching it be taken down and resupplied no less than 3 times.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: JimmyC on July 05, 2017, 04:13:41 PM
Great point Nat! I think the "WIN" is a key part of the game! Like the last scenario, it was some of the best fun I have had in a long time but it was lacking in one way. Was hard to tell who won! That wasnt the driving force of a scenario and worked fine, it is a bit different. Winning, no matter how YOU define it for yourself IS the main driver of any game, imo. Whether its killing everyone and landing your kills...saving a base from capture or even retaliating in an 88 after being picked on the runway. Its the differences of game winning and how it is defined by each player, that makes our "Virtual World" keep spinning :aok Like yesterday, yes, I was getting slaughtered left and right...DANG you 2cmex and your N1k and Rud3 and others. BUT then got into a really fun and glorious fight with Jimmyc, Spixteen on Spixteen, down and dirty! Hard pulls and max rudder to keep from smacking the water. Dodging picks from Bricker and Rud3, Humbldt and others. Dug in like a tick I was, wasnt going to let Jimmyc loose(Cause he reversed and killed me last time I broke from the fight) untill either I crashed or or he did! I finally got his wing and then lost mine to Rud3 :mad: But MAN, hands sweating and heart beating, followed by a message from Jimmyc! Wow, man, That was great! I couldnt shake you SALUTE :rock That was BIG FUN. Sometimes you just have to let the fun FIND YOU! Salute all you guys that made it happen, even YOU RUD3 :neener:
<S>man I'm here for the fun!
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Chilli on July 05, 2017, 04:15:30 PM
Forgive my ignorance but the only WW2 Flight sim that I ever have played has been Aces High. What other flight sims have 3 sided turf war as driving force. (This is an honest question), and have they been successful with such an approach other than Aces High?
I win, every time my buds and I chat on vox or over 200. I win every time I enter into simulated combat and morale is high on all sides to keep up the battle. I win, by finding something new and exciting during this past time of ours, no matter how many times I die. I win, by not being bored out of my freak'n mind, trying to find a fun engagement to share with other ONLINE players.
If it means that someone has to lose in order for me to win in those respects. I would gladly send my condolences to all the milkrun map takers.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: pipz on July 05, 2017, 04:17:30 PM
Let me add..... Bla bla bla bla and bla bla bla bla... and lets not forget bla bla bla bla. :old:
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Chilli on July 05, 2017, 04:23:22 PM
Forgive my ignorance but the only WW2 Flight sim that I ever have played has been Aces High. What other flight sims have 3 sided turf war as driving force. (This is an honest question), and have they been successful with such an approach other than Aces High?
I win, every time my buds and I chat on vox or over 200. I win every time I enter into simulated combat and morale is high on all sides to keep up the battle. I win, by finding something new and exciting during this past time of ours, no matter how many times I die. I win, by not being bored out of my freak'n mind, trying to find a fun engagement to share with other ONLINE players.
If it means that someone has to lose in order for me to win in those respects. I would gladly send my condolences to all the milkrun map takers.
Agreed 100%
Winning has absolutely nothing to do with the map for me.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: bustr on July 05, 2017, 05:26:28 PM
I fly for the 4th country in the Melee arena, it's called Piggyland. Other than that, Pigglyland makes fun with where ever they are at.
I think any player who achieves something remarkable like the most M3 base captures a month or the most kills on Dr7's tank or the most kills on bombers or the most sinking of CV or the most radar towers destroyed a month or the most feilds de-acked or the most bomber kills or the most fighter kills or the most towns white flagged for capture with a tank or the most towns saved with an M3 resupply...are having fun. It takes all of those things to win the war and flip the map ultimately. So it's all fun......
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: 1stpar3 on July 05, 2017, 05:38:07 PM
Forgive my ignorance but the only WW2 Flight sim that I ever have played has been Aces High. What other flight sims have 3 sided turf war as driving force. (This is an honest question), and have they been successful with such an approach other than Aces High?
I win, every time my buds and I chat on vox or over 200. I win every time I enter into simulated combat and morale is high on all sides to keep up the battle. I win, by finding something new and exciting during this past time of ours, no matter how many times I die. I win, by not being bored out of my freak'n mind, trying to find a fun engagement to share with other ONLINE players.
If it means that someone has to lose in order for me to win in those respects. I would gladly send my condolences to all the milkrun map takers.
Its in no way IGNORANCE! Im in this with you,my friend. There are times when i question why something is the way it is,in this game! Even with the BISH, lately at least to me, it seemed that everyone forgot how we USED to play. Seemed it was mostly a whine fest about one thing or another. Here lately,last couple of days maybe a week...we have actually seen some missions pop with joiners even :x Even saw the resumption of the old BISH NOE Smash-nGrab :devil I know,those on receiving end dont share in my gladness, but to me it means "WE are back". Its not so much the capture of the base, that does help (it was a big failure this time) but man, we kick started a fight that lasted an hour! GHI was drunk :eek: Hoagi was in a Duece(drinking Jaeger) :uhoh and 2 others colided with trees :D Big laughs for all :x As stated before, I can understand I just havent had that problem lately, finding good fights and or fun? This game is still new for me and I dont have memories from "the Good Old Days". Maybe that is why? Just hasnt been my experience of late :rock Chilli, you were responsible for some of those FUN moments as well. :uhoh For the record...I thought you may have been the JUG :frown: not the La-5... just saying :cheers: Or the F-6 either :devil My BAD? :neener: Love ya, BROTHER :D
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: 1stpar3 on July 05, 2017, 05:46:01 PM
I fly for the 4th country in the Melee arena, it's called Piggyland. Other than that, Pigglyland makes fun with where ever they are at.
I think any player who achieves something remarkable like the most M3 base captures a month or the most kills on Dr7's tank or the most kills on bombers or the most sinking of CV or the most radar towers destroyed a month or the most feilds de-acked or the most bomber kills or the most fighter kills or the most towns white flagged for capture with a tank or the most towns saved with an M3 resupply...are having fun. It takes all of those things to win the war and flip the map ultimately. So it's all fun......
Piggly Wiggly? I used to shop there! Or Rib and Loin? No, thats a BBQ restaurant :x 4th country....When Pigs FLY :eek: Oh right...THEY DO :old:
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Zoney on July 05, 2017, 06:01:52 PM
I fly for the 4th country in the Melee arena, it's called Piggyland. Other than that, Pigglyland makes fun with where ever they are at.
I think any player who achieves something remarkable like the most M3 base captures a month or the most kills on Dr7's tank or the most kills on bombers or the most sinking of CV or the most radar towers destroyed a month or the most feilds de-acked or the most bomber kills or the most fighter kills or the most towns white flagged for capture with a tank or the most towns saved with an M3 resupply...are having fun. It takes all of those things to win the war and flip the map ultimately. So it's all fun......
You forgot THE most important stat of all........Fighter, Kills to Death....... :devil
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: CAV on July 05, 2017, 07:01:21 PM
Quote
Forgive my ignorance but the only WW2 Flight sim that I ever have played has been Aces High. What other flight sims have 3 sided turf war as driving force. (This is an honest question), and have they been successful with such an approach other than Aces High?
Not all was 3 sided..........
Airwarrior 1988-2001
Warbirds 1995-- till alive somewhat....
Fighter ace -- i forget the dates, but was online for like 13 yrs.
CAV
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: The Fugitive on July 05, 2017, 07:13:25 PM
Sorry, NatCigg, but none of what you referred to was implied, so let me clarify.
Object repair time could be the same as always been. If instead of % territory, total amount of damage (however calculated) would be independent of how many times it was repaired.
Flipping a map could have unlimited number of possibilities of how theycould determine map win. However it is done, win should promote some exposure of players to combat and not hide them like frequently is the case in the resupply by nearly invisible ground vehicles, to undo the cooperative progress of 5 or greater number of opposing forces.*
*The mere reason that I am here wasting 30 minutes of my time reading a bulletin board is, it is preferrable to wasting another 30 minutes waiting outside of town with troops, watching it be taken down and resupplied no less than 3 times.
You cant take away the Win the War aspect of the game. To many it is as important as Zoney bouncing buffs, or one of the many fighter guys who miss the fights.
There are a number of ways to cut back on the "hordes". My guess is that Hitech doesn't think they are enough of an issue to do anything about it. Local ENY, increase in target hardness as captured percentage goes up, removing the M3 supply, changing down times and so on and so on.
Right now with the low numbers evr issue with the game anyone has is amplified. Some times all there are are hordes, those who hate hordes complain. Other times too many guys are furballing and the land grabbers complain. Once the numbers come back up it will be easier to find those kinds of fights/action your looking for be it buffs, GV furballin or land grab, you'll be able to find it in some section of the map. Right now we just dont have enough numbers to support all those different types of action.
Im waiting to see how this Steam thing turns out. IF they hook up and IF it brings in a bunch of players and IF it turns around the game play, Great! I'll upgrade my computer and maybe get VR, but not until I see how it all shakes out.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Oldman731 on July 05, 2017, 09:06:35 PM
Fighter ace -- i forget the dates, but was online for like 13 yrs.
Don't know about Warbirds and FA, but AW was three-sided from at least 1994 through its demise on Pearl Harbor Day, 2001. My sense is that AW was three-sided from even before that.
- oldman
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: ghi on July 06, 2017, 12:45:36 AM
“REMEMBER YOUR GREATNESS
Before you were born, And were still too tiny for The human eye to see, You won the race for life From among 250 million competitors. And yet, How fast you have forgotten Your strength, When your very existence Is proof of your greatness. You were born a winner, A warrior, One who defied the odds By surviving the most gruesome Battle of them all. And now that you are a giant, Why do you even doubt victory Against smaller numbers, And wider margins? The only walls that exist, Are those you have placed in your mind. And whatever obstacles you conceive, Exist only because you have forgotten What you have already Achieved.
Before you were born, And were still too tiny for The human eye to see, You won the race for life From among 250 million competitors. And yet, How fast you have forgotten Your strength, When your very existence Is proof of your greatness. You were born a winner, A warrior, One who defied the odds By surviving the most gruesome Battle of them all. And now that you are a giant, Why do you even doubt victory Against smaller numbers, And wider margins? The only walls that exist, Are those you have placed in your mind. And whatever obstacles you conceive, Exist only because you have forgotten What you have already Achieved.
Can't recall too many knights complaining when the other two horde them. It's usually more of a, "OMG there's a fight!" feeling on channel.
Wiley.
I can. I fly for all three sides and hear the same stuff everywhere: "They're not fighting each other" , "They are ganging us and we have ENY", "HiTech hates our country" blah, blah, blah
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: JunkyII on July 06, 2017, 10:32:06 AM
I can. I fly for all three sides and hear the same stuff everywhere: "They're not fighting each other" , "They are ganging us and we have ENY", "HiTech hates our country" blah, blah, blah
I do notice it more often on Rooks then I did Knights but you are right, people on all 3 sides cry when both fronts become active....which blows my mind in a combat simulator.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 06, 2017, 12:13:51 PM
Don't know about Warbirds and FA, but AW was three-sided from at least 1994 through its demise on Pearl Harbor Day, 2001. My sense is that AW was three-sided from even before that.
- oldman
it was 3 sided when I played AW DOS. WB was 4 sided when I played that game in the late '90s.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Wiley on July 06, 2017, 12:42:29 PM
I can. I fly for all three sides and hear the same stuff everywhere: "They're not fighting each other" , "They are ganging us and we have ENY", "HiTech hates our country" blah, blah, blah
You're probably right. It's likely pretty similar on all sides, the same half dozen guys on each side making noise. I guess I've tuned out the guys on Knight over time so I barely notice them.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Zoney on July 06, 2017, 01:04:38 PM
Unless they always type in caps all the time of course because what he has to say is so important no one should miss it.
squelch is your friend :)
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: TequilaChaser on July 06, 2017, 01:28:56 PM
From what ive seen of bish in the last year is multiple people/groups playing strategically across the map. when someone needs help they ask and generally get it. A bish "horde" could be a squad wolfpack or could be a somewhat organized team brought together by a arm chair general. scheduled pickup missions are rare, it is front line fighting (pick up horde; this is how a knight horde probably works since "strike teams" have petered out.) and armchair generals guiding the team as described in sentence one. when numbers are up, some squad leaders will post missions but struggle to get numbers considering the ongoing battle. Other squad wolfpacks work rather silently, kinda like the pigs, save that playing the war remains the overriding target.
Agreed... so, why has the RJO, BJO and KJO been banned?
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: The Fugitive on July 06, 2017, 02:15:47 PM
who said it was banned? you just don't see that kind of organization these days.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: puller on July 06, 2017, 03:34:56 PM
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :cry I got killed by more than 2 people :ahand...WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :cry the bish are always winning and I don't know what to do :ahand...WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :cry HTC do something please I can't stand to lose at anything or be told to try harder or do anything different to change the outcome of my gameplay :ahand.... :ahand WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
That's what I have gathered from this thread...
We need an emoji that has a bucket gathering the tears of nits and crooks...
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: wil3ur on July 06, 2017, 05:46:40 PM
Some of the best fights start off as 2 3 or 4 vs 1. They get all sorts of aggressive, each trying to outshoot the other and get their kill. Next thing you know you've blown up a couple guys, have the others out of synch and they realize they're outclassed and nose down and run away until they can try and come back with superior numbers.
So then they avoid your planetype thinking they're going to get owned again, which is why you need to fly multiple models so no one can figure out where you're going to be, and you can keep clubbing the hordelings.
Flying high ENY planes also helps... Someone in a LA7 or P51 sees a P38G/J or a 109G and they think they'll be able to fly circles around you no matter what you do because they have the technological advantage. The cries of hacks and tears when you show them that ACM beats speed make me feel good inside. Plus if I don't get a lot of kills my woman threatens to leave me and says she only dates winners.
Send more seals.
:joystick:
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: CAV on July 06, 2017, 06:53:53 PM
Quote
The one thing Aces High has that the others didn't, is capturable fields....
The field capturing was extremely limited if at all, game depending....
All three had field capture... In AW "Full Realism" on the BigPac map for a long time you was able to push a side down to just 3 unconquerable fields.
It was OK, if it happen to the Cz
Cav
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Chilli on July 06, 2017, 07:17:59 PM
The main upside to a static map front, is a clear focus on action. Currently, we have about as many green channel alerts as we have bases. Since the main "winning" carrot has been to take / sneak away as many bases as possible, the three easiest methods are 1) overpower with numbers, 2) surprise with speed, stealth and precision or 3) milkrun while very few defenders are online. With defense of towns, removed from its dominant importance, players are free to organize, form and engage freely.
You cant take away the Win the War aspect of the game. To many it is as important as Zoney bouncing buffs, or one of the many fighter guys who miss the fights. {snip}
I did say to use another determinant for Victory besides turf. I agree "win the war" is important to many. Taking turf is not anywhere near as important. FSO and other Special Events have come up with countless scenarios to tally victory points. HiTech added the achievement system, which I took as one of the long list of promised items from the shelved "Combat Tour" system.
Fugi, it might be a hard sell at first, but you could also still give those hard liners the opportunity to capture towns (or maybe even small ground bases) without changing the map face with air bases and strategic targets. (This even has physical support as this is where these maprooms are located). I have no clue of how many lines of coad or hours of conversion time and quality checks, but it WOULD force players to ENGAGE rather than SNEAK. This should not be a bad idea for an online combat model, one would think.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Chilli on July 06, 2017, 07:22:56 PM
Cav,
Are you sure that was AW and not AH1? I do recall, in AH1 the map would not reset until one country was virtually eliminated. Maybe, that is why we still have that 2 v 1 sided approach in AH War Room.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: JimmyD3 on July 06, 2017, 07:50:02 PM
I have had the privilege of flying Bish, Rook and Knit (my current country), and have met some wonderful people, man the list would included some mainstays in all 3 countries. But the reality is we are all the same, we put our pants on one leg at a time, we ALL bleed red, and :rofl we all have opinions. Just don't let your opinions determine reality.
So I say :salute to some great people, Woody002, PTbop GP5 GHI Bret247, Slipknot, Rodent57, xxxxJCxxxx, Virgle, dr7, GT101, Smitty, Waystin, Bustr, Black70, Dcat, Dfcrash............ and on and on. We are here to have fun, when that stops, at least for me, I'm gone but I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future.
:salute to all
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Becinhu on July 07, 2017, 02:00:35 PM
All the chess pieces are the same. I have flown for each in my years here. There are some things you can count on however. If there is a base take attempt by the bishops you are pretty certain to find some combo of jokers jokers, BOP, or air raiders there. If it's rooks it will be a combo of 49ers, CJs, 56th. For knights, freedirds, or 68th. You can throw in POTW for whichever piece they are flying with currently.
If it's a furball? Bishops will have jokers jokers and air raiders 90% of the time. Rooks will have 56th. Knights will have 80th and hell hounds, and 475th. Also add POTW to whichever side they are on that month.
You can throw your all caps arm chair generals in those scenarios as well. They are normally wanting you to do the opposite of what you are currently engaged in. You also get the "there is no fight" crowd. It's real easy to start a fight though. Find a base on the front with no action. Up 1 set of lancs and 1 fighter. Deack and WF the town. Watch the hornets rise. You don't even need to try and take the base. This kind of fight and the good ole cv right off the coast makes great action too.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Ramesis on July 07, 2017, 03:33:36 PM
Not a single loyal bish player is good 1v1...which is why they often group up and attack where there are no defenders...that's not dominance, that's just avoiding a real fight.....cool they take some bases but they don't experience the best of parts of Aces High.
This must be true...
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: JunkyII on July 08, 2017, 01:09:32 PM
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :cry I got killed by more than 2 people :ahand...WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :cry the bish are always winning and I don't know what to do :ahand...WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :cry HTC do something please I can't stand to lose at anything or be told to try harder or do anything different to change the outcome of my gameplay :ahand.... :ahand WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
That's what I have gathered from this thread...
We need an emoji that has a bucket gathering the tears of nits and crooks...
12-0??? was that the score line for our night in the DA?....you can't talk crap, you for sure gang an HO but you cry about it on 200....same with the majority of your squad.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :cry I got killed by more than 2 people :ahand...WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :cry the bish are always winning and I don't know what to do :ahand...WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :cry HTC do something please I can't stand to lose at anything or be told to try harder or do anything different to change the outcome of my gameplay :ahand.... :ahand WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
That's what I have gathered from this thread...
We need an emoji that has a bucket gathering the tears of nits and crooks...
Heck, if there is a FIGHT, that doesn't disappear into a cloud of dust as soon as equal numbers reach to oppose, THEN I AM THERE!!!
The problem stems from the lack of motivation for any group of players to stay engaged in any such activity. Compound this with the detrimental effects of removing specific spawn points or air bases, and ...... "yawn" :bhead folks just stop running head long into the same wall.
My take on the situation is that until "Melee Arena" actually lives up to its title, not very much progress will be made in retaining more than a small group of the many dedicated Aces High fans, falling out of "like" with the game play.
MY SUGGESTION: Develop a "Titanic Tuesday" that suspends land grab, and offers other perks / rewards for a 24 hour period. Get feedback from what was learned, improve on and market the best ideas. Be fearless, in ignoring "tears for fears" crowd that will over react and make an INFORMED decision to go forth with the "Melee Arena" that promotes the most visible evidence of online versus online game play.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Vinkman on July 10, 2017, 11:10:21 AM
Numbers don't win maps, organization does. If a 6-8 man squad or group get's their act together they can roll bases one after another and win the map.
there is nothing stopping the knits or Rooks from getting organized except their own desire to do so. If they don't care enough about stopping bases from getting rolled to do anything about it, then it's not really a problem, hence no solution from a game coding standpoint is required.
I defend bases a lot...often with one other defender. I send out distress calls, and no one answers. They are off on their corner of the map doing what they think is fun. They have made the decision that the map from being won by someone else is OK with them.
If the Bish have more people who's goal is to win the map, and people who agree with that paradigm move to Bish to be with like minded people, and the Bish win every time, then everyone gets what they want.
so maybe there are Knits, or Rooks that want to win the map but never can because not enough countrymen care to help. Maybe they should be loyal to their type of gameplay, rather than their chess piece and switch sides. :aok
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Chilli on July 10, 2017, 12:15:38 PM
so maybe there are Knits, or Rooks that want to win the map but never can because not enough countrymen care to help. Maybe they should be loyal to their type of gameplay, rather than their chess piece and switch sides. :aok
Pretty much this is the problem. Compounded by the "sneak" attribute involved in "winning" (land grab). We don't have to ask what happens when all the win the war types go to one country, it is already evident.
Simply stated, that type of game play is pushing more players away than attracting any of them to the game. Yep, feels good when you have a good group working together, but at WHAT COST?
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Vinkman on July 10, 2017, 12:52:41 PM
Pretty much this is the problem. Compounded by the "sneak" attribute involved in "winning" (land grab). We don't have to ask what happens when all the win the war types go to one country, it is already evident.
Simply stated, that type of game play is pushing more players away than attracting any of them to the game. Yep, feels good when you have a good group working together, but at WHAT COST?
What type of game play? winning the map? You think rolling bases is pushing people from the game? How?
Do people quit because they lost a map?
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: wil3ur on July 10, 2017, 01:04:00 PM
My main issue with the win the map type, is they are also the scorehoors for the most part too. So in addition to wanting to sneak to avoid combat and possible failure, they bomb and bail, bail out of aircraft, and do everything possible to avoid combat.
Spending 15 minutes climbing to 34K to chase a set of buffs on the way to the strats that bail the second you get within 4K of them is lame, or a base porker running to get far enough away to avoid giving a proxy then bailing does more to make me log off than any sort of hording or land grabbing.
I've seen JJ NOE missions with 20+ people all bail when spotted over the water rather than possibly deal with someone defending against their smash and grab.
THAT does more to destroy the game than anything.
MY SUGGESTION -- If you don't want to fight in an online combat sim, you can roll all the bases you want without opposition offline.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Vinkman on July 10, 2017, 01:24:11 PM
My main issue with the win the map type, is they are also the scorehoors for the most part too. So in addition to wanting to sneak to avoid combat and possible failure, they bomb and bail, bail out of aircraft, and do everything possible to avoid combat.
Spending 15 minutes climbing to 34K to chase a set of buffs on the way to the strats that bail the second you get within 4K of them is lame, or a base porker running to get far enough away to avoid giving a proxy then bailing does more to make me log off than any sort of hording or land grabbing.
I've seen JJ NOE missions with 20+ people all bail when spotted over the water rather than possibly deal with someone defending against their smash and grab.
THAT does more to destroy the game than anything.
MY SUGGESTION -- If you don't want to fight in an online combat sim, you can roll all the bases you want without opposition offline.
I agree that's all somewhat annoying, but how does the OP's suggestion fix that? What can HTC do about that kind behavior that would handicap everyone else to the point of creating a much bigger problem?
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: CAV on July 10, 2017, 04:05:56 PM
Quote
Simply stated, that type of game play is pushing more players away than attracting any of them to the game.
How do we know that?
The way I see things is..... All the war fighters have left the sim for better game play and all we have left is furballers and GV spawn campers.
CAV
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Chilli on July 11, 2017, 03:39:28 AM
To answer, what does any of this have to do with anything, it is all speculation. Evidence comes in the form of participation during FSO and Special Events. I suggest the most appreciative of the bunch have found a more efficient use of their in game time.
What can HTC do? They have already added new options to game play that rolled out with AH3. Capture the flag, Steal the sheep, Match play, Mission Arenas, and a number of terrain additions like flak bases, battleships and small ground bases. The BOLD thing to do would be to dedicate one week day to alternative style play and use the time to expose player base to things like unlimited side switching, staged missions, and find ways to reward perks, rank or achievement based on cooperative style play.
I admit that my views are probably biased against the time consuming high altitude bomber intercept or the M3 resupply chain. To put that into perspective, the game was way more enjoyable for me when a base capture was almost guaranteed if the church was "down" and there were two teammates capping the field. Ever since that town was enlarged and base capture has become a checklist of to do items, I have found other ways to be entertained.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Xtrepid on July 11, 2017, 08:22:17 AM
Time and Numbers... Numbers being the main...
X :salute
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: pipz on July 11, 2017, 04:18:30 PM
When are the new Wildcats coming out?
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Shuffler on July 11, 2017, 06:02:42 PM
Funny how the fighters think there are too many capture the base types and the capture the base types think there are too many furballers.
Reading through this is amusing.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: 1stpar3 on July 12, 2017, 01:28:47 AM
Numbers don't win maps, organization does. If a 6-8 man squad or group get's their act together they can roll bases one after another and win the map.
there is nothing stopping the knits or Rooks from getting organized except their own desire to do so. If they don't care enough about stopping bases from getting rolled to do anything about it, then it's not really a problem, hence no solution from a game coding standpoint is required.
I defend bases a lot...often with one other defender. I send out distress calls, and no one answers. They are off on their corner of the map doing what they think is fun. They have made the decision that the map from being won by someone else is OK with them.
If the Bish have more people who's goal is to win the map, and people who agree with that paradigm move to Bish to be with like minded people, and the Bish win every time, then everyone gets what they want.
so maybe there are Knits, or Rooks that want to win the map but never can because not enough countrymen care to help. Maybe they should be loyal to their type of gameplay, rather than their chess piece and switch sides. :aok
I agree, nothing worse than no concerted effort to help country men. It happens on Bish as well. Whether because we are losing and folk gave up, thus playing Lone Wolf? It amazes me that it can be so hard to find just 6 players willing to join missions. Several of those players that dont regularly help out are on this forum griping about the Bish Horde or getting mowed over by said horde. A shrink would have a hay day trying to figure out why some folk do this. As far as hating "ACK runners" goes, Does not the initiators of the engagement dictate the fight? Pretty sure you could circle away from ack and taunt them to come to you! Like Goliath and David, only the rocks are 50 cals lol Lots of fights happen in the zone between 2 bases. I know that the fight is the goal BUT it is a combat game, and some just dont want to die. Thus they break off from fight and extend away. Might be wounded or had several guns destroyed, so why try to fight with that going on. Especially because you/they can always get a new plane. Now however, you know where the fight is.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Vinkman on July 12, 2017, 08:55:47 AM
Heck, if there is a FIGHT, that doesn't disappear into a cloud of dust as soon as equal numbers reach to oppose, THEN I AM THERE!!!
The problem stems from the lack of motivation for any group of players to stay engaged in any such activity. Compound this with the detrimental effects of removing specific spawn points or air bases, and ...... "yawn" :bhead folks just stop running head long into the same wall.
My take on the situation is that until "Melee Arena" actually lives up to its title, not very much progress will be made in retaining more than a small group of the many dedicated Aces High fans, falling out of "like" with the game play.
MY SUGGESTION: Develop a "Titanic Tuesday" that suspends land grab, and offers other perks / rewards for a 24 hour period. Get feedback from what was learned, improve on and market the best ideas. Be fearless, in ignoring "tears for fears" crowd that will over react and make an INFORMED decision to go forth with the "Melee Arena" that promotes the most visible evidence of online versus online game play.
use to get the whole team together one night and run the map if they could. With the numbers back then it was a fun night whether you were attacking or defending.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Zoney on July 12, 2017, 11:20:20 AM
This might be unpopular but how about each tour or every time the map is reset players are randomnly assigned to countries. Randomnly assign squads too to allow them to stay intact.
I think people that got forcibly placed would just log off or quit
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: lunatic1 on July 12, 2017, 11:21:18 AM
use to get the whole team together one night and run the map if they could. With the numbers back then it was a fun night whether you were attacking or defending.
oh hehe thankyou
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: bustr on July 12, 2017, 12:57:29 PM
This post is another recognition of how much numbers matter when the total arena population is below 200 most of the time. Test this against the hour and a half on any FSO Friday night before the participants leave the Melee arena for the special events arena. Those Friday nights average about 200 and there are enough players to counter dominance issues.
Always wondered if they can show up three Friday's a week to warm up for one to two hours, where are they the rest of the week.
Unless Hitech does something like make it only take 12% of a town down for a white flag to speed up captures. And\or add in a new field like object objective to capture or destroy towards win the war to engage peoples attention spans. Numbers 200 and over matter to alleviate these game problems.
Reducing the town capture percentage would make the airfield you are currently "enjoying a nice furball from", a moving target for how long it will be there if you don't defend it. But so too for your enemy if your green guys are taking advantage of the reduced percentage down to capture the town. It would inspire more small teams of base takers to make probes for base sneaks. Probably more pork and run across numbers of bases to mask the small groups intentions. Imagine something like how GV bases are constantly probed by one or two players to see if they can run in troops. A lower town down percentage would inspire alot of that.
Or, with some percentage of airfields on all terrains in rotation, remove the town and place a map room on the field. In itself that would make capturing a field a more involved activity or a quick sneak for a P38, T34 and an M3. But, it would be a change using the objects and processes in place to account for lower numbers.
Can anyone consider what would happen in the Melee arena if 1\3-1\2 of all small airfields were changed to the map room on the airfield?
Those would be the easiest and fastest targets to capture since you would only in theory have to de-ack, drop the vehicle hanger, and run in troops while your team vulched anything trying to up. Not many stalled base takes and all sides would be trying to take at least one most of the time.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Vinkman on July 12, 2017, 01:02:16 PM
And you captured a screen shot of the text when I snuck up on OBX last time. Outstanding!
I don't recall. what did I do? :salute
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: wil3ur on July 12, 2017, 01:12:03 PM
I think HiTech should get rid of the Score system and ranks. Players will know who the good sticks are still from painful reminders in the sky.
Getting rid of the need to avoid fighting, do milk runs, and take undefended bases would do a ton to start adding incentive back to actually playing the game.
That or lets go to a Co-Op model where everyone just plays against AI, or better yet, no AI and we get a country that only has Autoack so people can sit there and attack undefended bases without having to worry about someone coming in and ruining their score. There seems to be a huge group of people in the "Win the War" crowd that I think this would really play to.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: bustr on July 12, 2017, 01:46:33 PM
Does anyone play for score or rank anymore? When is the last time anyone on 200 or country thumped their chest over I'm number auwsum and looky at me? Achievements and those star thingies next to your name? Our community pretty much shames anyone as a dork who mentions them. I would hate to see what would happen if Hitech awarded all those thingies the forum members at War Thunder fill their signatures with.
We have low numbers which showcases how groups of people in their risk tolerance fall out across a predictable spectrum. When we had hundreds a night the 10-12% with a high risk tolerance were everywhere. And too the variances in risk tolerance of the other 88-90%, so someone wanted to fight to some degree all the time due to the illusion and predictability of "numbers". The vast majority of people who play combat games have low risk tolerance and don't want to fight head to head. They will happily sneak around and blow things up and shoot you in the back when you aren't looking. Then run away faster than you can blink and do anything they can to not get killed. That game is called win at all costs while staying alive at any cost. That is pretty normal for the majority of human beings.
Novelty will lure them into new situations along with the illusion of a quick win. Then you just take advantage of them the same way you did back in the hundreds a night hoard days when you harvested them and ran into an occasional risk taker. Being mad at them and calling them virtual sissies won't change how much tolerance they have for personal risk. Today at this time they are what we have to work with.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: wil3ur on July 12, 2017, 01:56:23 PM
If no one plays for score or rank anymore, then why are there still daily people who bomb and bail or bail from a plane rather than even entertain the thought of engaging in battle with another person just to make sure the other person does not get a kill, and they by proxy, do not rank up a death which is a bigger hit to your score than a bail?
Do the vast majority of players do this? I would say no... but the members of the groups who are most vocal about winning the war are by far the vast majority, and since they tend to group up, you end up seeing this style of play which I think is more detrimental to the game than anything.
It wasn't too long ago I was out in my 262 just playing around. I ran across about 6 sets of buffs with a few 110s running an NOE mission. The second I began to descend down to engage them, the entire group bailed over the ocean rather than even attempt to defend themselves. 1 plane versus 20+, and the 20+ all bailed.
We can sit here all day long and argue whether hordes or unbalanced sides are the problem, but I think the main issue has been and continues to be the people that are there tend to not want to play the game. They would rather grief another country, "WHY NO DEFENDERS AT A7?! WE JUST TOOK YOUR BASE HAHAHAHAHA!" or grief another player by wasting 20 minutes of their time they took to intercept you by bailing out before they can fire a shot.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Ramesis on July 12, 2017, 02:27:34 PM
Does anyone play for score or rank anymore? When is the last time anyone on 200 or country thumped their chest over I'm number auwsum and looky at me? Achievements and those star thingies next to your name? Our community pretty much shames anyone as a dork who mentions them. I would hate to see what would happen if Hitech awarded all those thingies the forum members at War Thunder fill their signatures with.
We have low numbers which showcases how groups of people in their risk tolerance fall out across a predictable spectrum. When we had hundreds a night the 10-12% with a high risk tolerance were everywhere. And too the variances in risk tolerance of the other 88-90%, so someone wanted to fight to some degree all the time due to the illusion and predictability of "numbers". The vast majority of people who play combat games have low risk tolerance and don't want to fight head to head. They will happily sneak around and blow things up and shoot you in the back when you aren't looking. Then run away faster than you can blink and do anything they can to not get killed. That game is called win at all costs while staying alive at any cost. That is pretty normal for the majority of human beings.
Novelty will lure them into new situations along with the illusion of a quick win. Then you just take advantage of them the same way you did back in the hundreds a night hoard days when you harvested them and ran into an occasional risk taker. Being mad at them and calling them virtual sissies won't change how much tolerance they have for personal risk. Today at this time they are what we have to work with.
I play only to win a map... score/perks mean nothing to me :cheers: Of course I'm not even close to what I was but even then I played to win the map :airplane:
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Zoney on July 12, 2017, 02:29:07 PM
In Chilli's screen shot shown, OBX says "oh no" and I say "uh oh" because I had just snuck up from under his Spitty in my 262 to blast him out of the sky. He's busy typing a lot so I get guys to engage him in conversation so I can do the sneaky sneaky thing :)
Just made me giggle, it was recent.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Zener on July 12, 2017, 02:41:36 PM
It wasn't too long ago I was out in my 262 just playing around. I ran across about 6 sets of buffs with a few 110s running an NOE mission. The second I began to descend down to engage them, the entire group bailed over the ocean rather than even attempt to defend themselves. 1 plane versus 20+, and the 20+ all bailed.
... or grief another player by wasting 20 minutes of their time they took to intercept you by bailing out before they can fire a shot.
I'm not defending their actions, however you also have to consider that some sneak missions are run with the idea in mind that the attackers either make it to target undetected -OR- they will consider the mission a bust. When they perceived you descending on them, they knew they were busted and had no way to know whether or not you were screaming on country channel for lots of uppers at the target airfield. When that happens, they aren't going to get in and do their jobs, and likely one or two goon hunters (maybe you in your deuce) were going to foil their plans. They took a risk, it didn't work out, thus, they abort.
They aren't there just for your kills.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: wil3ur on July 12, 2017, 02:52:57 PM
I need DrBone, System and Google to come back for some good ol' fashioned 262 Shark Hunting. :evil:
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: atlau on July 12, 2017, 03:01:22 PM
Can someone explain how bailing out helps your score??? Its counted as a death. If they cared about score they would fight back and try to land.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Copprhed on July 12, 2017, 03:23:34 PM
I haven't read this entire thread, but I have a question. When the numbers were huge, isn't it true that there were not nearly as many MMO, FPS, console games and phone games as there are now? Why is it surprising that a game such as this, while being great fun for a select group of people, doesn't do as well as it used to? This game has legs. It has a loyal following and it has an incredibly devoted owner and support team. I feel that, rather than constantly whining about people who won't play the way you want, or that HiTech won't change the game to benefit you and what you want to do, BE GRATEFUL!!! Thank you HiTech, Skuzzy and all of the volunteers who so graciously put up with our BS.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Wiley on July 12, 2017, 03:46:00 PM
If no one plays for score or rank anymore, then why are there still daily people who bomb and bail or bail from a plane rather than even entertain the thought of engaging in battle with another person just to make sure the other person does not get a kill, and they by proxy, do not rank up a death which is a bigger hit to your score than a bail?
I don't believe that is the main motivation. I just think they don't want to get shot down or don't want to bother with that "contact with an enemy trying to kill them" thing. They did what they wanted to do by dropping the bombs and want to get on to the next run as soon as possible.
Quote
Do the vast majority of players do this? I would say no... but the members of the groups who are most vocal about winning the war are by far the vast majority, and since they tend to group up, you end up seeing this style of play which I think is more detrimental to the game than anything.
It wasn't too long ago I was out in my 262 just playing around. I ran across about 6 sets of buffs with a few 110s running an NOE mission. The second I began to descend down to engage them, the entire group bailed over the ocean rather than even attempt to defend themselves. 1 plane versus 20+, and the 20+ all bailed.
We can sit here all day long and argue whether hordes or unbalanced sides are the problem, but I think the main issue has been and continues to be the people that are there tend to not want to play the game. They would rather grief another country, "WHY NO DEFENDERS AT A7?! WE JUST TOOK YOUR BASE HAHAHAHAHA!" or grief another player by wasting 20 minutes of their time they took to intercept you by bailing out before they can fire a shot.
Yup. Happens every once in a while. I've just come around to thinking "mission accomplished" if I make them drop their ords or bail before drop. They didn't hit what they were after, I did my job.
I don't understand the desire to play a multiplayer game and spend most of your time killing hapless buildings and avoiding the enemy, but it seems to be a popular gameplay lifestyle.
The bailing bomber at 20k+ is just something that's going to happen once in a while. In some cases more often depending on your play time. You can either accept it's going to happen from time to time or stop chasing high bombers. Myself, I don't like giving a guy a free shot at our strats just because he can climb. YMMV.
I haven't read this entire thread, but I have a question. When the numbers were huge, isn't it true that there were not nearly as many MMO, FPS, console games and phone games as there are now? Why is it surprising that a game such as this, while being great fun for a select group of people, doesn't do as well as it used to? This game has legs. It has a loyal following and it has an incredibly devoted owner and support team. I feel that, rather than constantly whining about people who won't play the way you want, or that HiTech won't change the game to benefit you and what you want to do, BE GRATEFUL!!! Thank you HiTech, Skuzzy and all of the volunteers who so graciously put up with our BS.
My personal feeling is in the heyday there weren't a ton of alternatives that had WWII planes in them. People tolerated the open world gameplay because it was the only game in town where you could dogfight with a bunch of people. Along came WT and IL2 and suddenly they had something that cut out all the extraneous things like trying to decide what to do, and climbing out. You didn't have to spend 5-10 minutes heading over from the next base to avoid getting vulched. Everybody takes off at the same time, and it's always got fair numbers, no getting horded. And I think that's where we lost a bunch of people is because that was more the gameplay they wanted.
Personally, the gameplay here is what I'm looking for. If I wanted a game like the other games, I'd be playing them instead. That's why I disagree with people coming in and saying, "Great game. They should do x y and z to make it like the other games and bring in more people."
Wiley.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Oldman731 on July 12, 2017, 03:48:35 PM
I'm not defending their actions, however you also have to consider that some sneak missions are run with the idea in mind that the attackers either make it to target undetected -OR- they will consider the mission a bust. When they perceived you descending on them, they knew they were busted and had no way to know whether or not you were screaming on country channel for lots of uppers at the target airfield. When that happens, they aren't going to get in and do their jobs, and likely one or two goon hunters (maybe you in your deuce) were going to foil their plans. They took a risk, it didn't work out, thus, they abort.
Which is pretty sad. It is actually possible to fight back.
- oldman
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: 1stpar3 on July 12, 2017, 03:58:12 PM
I haven't read this entire thread, but I have a question. When the numbers were huge, isn't it true that there were not nearly as many MMO, FPS, console games and phone games as there are now? Why is it surprising that a game such as this, while being great fun for a select group of people, doesn't do as well as it used to? This game has legs. It has a loyal following and it has an incredibly devoted owner and support team. I feel that, rather than constantly whining about people who won't play the way you want, or that HiTech won't change the game to benefit you and what you want to do, BE GRATEFUL!!! Thank you HiTech, Skuzzy and all of the volunteers who so graciously put up with our BS.
You sir, are correct! You are also STILL A snake in the grass. :x
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Shuffler on July 12, 2017, 05:03:38 PM
Does anyone play for score or rank anymore? When is the last time anyone on 200 or country thumped their chest over I'm number auwsum and looky at me? Achievements and those star thingies next to your name? Our community pretty much shames anyone as a dork who mentions them. I would hate to see what would happen if Hitech awarded all those thingies the forum members at War Thunder fill their signatures with.
We have low numbers which showcases how groups of people in their risk tolerance fall out across a predictable spectrum. When we had hundreds a night the 10-12% with a high risk tolerance were everywhere. And too the variances in risk tolerance of the other 88-90%, so someone wanted to fight to some degree all the time due to the illusion and predictability of "numbers". The vast majority of people who play combat games have low risk tolerance and don't want to fight head to head. They will happily sneak around and blow things up and shoot you in the back when you aren't looking. Then run away faster than you can blink and do anything they can to not get killed. That game is called win at all costs while staying alive at any cost. That is pretty normal for the majority of human beings.
Novelty will lure them into new situations along with the illusion of a quick win. Then you just take advantage of them the same way you did back in the hundreds a night hoard days when you harvested them and ran into an occasional risk taker. Being mad at them and calling them virtual sissies won't change how much tolerance they have for personal risk. Today at this time they are what we have to work with.
It has been long ago proven that score means nothing. Why anyone brings it up still is beyond me.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Lusche on July 12, 2017, 05:21:14 PM
It has been long ago proven that score means nothing.
Dunno... I hear men still name their firstborn sons after SHawk :old:
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 12, 2017, 07:46:48 PM
Score has nothing to do with the players leaving. In-fact, taking it off would probably lead to more people leaving. I actually think it's fun to compete for fighter score. You cannot game it like the others. Whether anyone thinks it takes skill or not is up to their own interpretation. Scores give some players something to achieve, and that's what keeps them in the game. Just like the base capture people. There seems to be this notion that taking away competitiveness will make the game better, I disagree. Forcing more people into action. Making closer bases that make action easier to find. Making maps that funnel action. Making other arenas for fast play (not scored). Switching the arena to a very small arena during off hours. Would bring much more excitement, much more even #s, and overall create a better atmosphere for all the players. Nothing besides maybe strat resupply and those stupid 88 guns needs to be changed. It's really all about the maps that make or break the game, at this point.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Vinkman on July 12, 2017, 08:15:48 PM
If no one plays for score or rank anymore, then why are there still daily people who bomb and bail or bail from a plane rather than even entertain the thought of engaging in battle with another person just to make sure the other person does not get a kill, and they by proxy, do not rank up a death which is a bigger hit to your score than a bail?
For score a bail and a death are the same thing. So no ones bails to improve their score. :salute
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Chilli on July 12, 2017, 08:55:27 PM
I haven't read this entire thread, but I have a question. When the numbers were huge, isn't it true that there were not nearly as many MMO, FPS, console games and phone games as there are now? Why is it surprising that a game such as this, while being great fun for a select group of people, doesn't do as well as it used to? This game has legs. It has a loyal following and it has an incredibly devoted owner and support team. I feel that, rather than constantly whining about people who won't play the way you want, or that HiTech won't change the game to benefit you and what you want to do, BE GRATEFUL!!! Thank you HiTech, Skuzzy and all of the volunteers who so graciously put up with our BS.
Yes, the competition for customers has increased. But contrary to the rest of your statement, HiTech has done quite well by listening to his existing customers. It is always his final decision to make additions and changes, but not every plan rolls out as designed.
"Back to the drawing board" is a standard of business development. Look on you laundry detergent shelves. Just about every box or container has the words new, improved or better written somewhere on the label.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: 1stpar3 on July 13, 2017, 03:48:01 AM
Guys, I am not trolling one bit here. For the life of me, I dont really understand why some are having trouble finding fights! I do realize that most of you have alot more time invested in this game and are a bit nostalgic for how it use to be. I dont encounter the "Bomb and Balers", in fact I only remember 1 since 2014,my join date. I just dont care for climbing to the moon and hoping I picked a great intercept angle(which means probably not :rolleyes:). I get just as much fun from killing M3s as I do fighters. I love to bomb GVs in my Spixteen and work hard perfecting it. I know why the spit to bomb GVs? Once light, I can still be competitive as it can build E fairly quick. I just cant understand folk not finding fights. I also understand the guys that can get 5 or more kills in a massive furball feel cheated when the enemy numbers in the fight are like 1 or 2. Sure, you could have taken 6 all by yourself, but isnt that an ego boast too. Its like my friend in Vegas, plays Dollar Vid Poker and gripes about losing so much money, thus shortening their casino time. Sure playin smaller amounts wont get the big money BUT the wins you do get are not smaller in percentage. Some times you need to scale down a bit to just enjoy the attempt at winning. So I have to ask, What do you consider a "Good Fight"? How would stopping the M3 resup brigade help you get better fights? As far as closer bases, How would that help? Especially if we get a bunch of new players? Sure some of you guys would be fine with not climbing real high to enter the fight BUT that would leave new folk in a lurch. There will always be those that feel the need to enter a fight from 20k. On the "pesky 88s" how many times do you get killed by manned guns at fields? I can count on 1 hand in my experience(with puffy). Guys fly right through base ack and come out relatively unscathed all the time. So why the hatred for the slowest turret movement aand difficulty finding the range before some one flying through kills it anyway? In my way of thinking, if you arent having fun where you are, maybe consider finding other teams to at least see if your fun factor will improve? Thats what I would do! If you really love this game and are frustrated bad enough to quit it, why not at least check other sides out before you go? Pretty sure no one would chastize you about trying to increase your fun factor and those that do can be squelched. I have flown all 3 sides and have found some really great guys. If one of those wanted to swap I am all for it! Miss flying with some of you guys, so come on over and try. Its not like its forever and six hours should be enough to make an informed decision. Shoot I was hooked on this game and willing to pay after about 3 hours. What do you have to lose? I just prefer you guys try everything instead of quitting . Our numbers are low enough now as it is. Dont want to lose more because they are just unwilling to evolve. I may never get an opportunity to play in maxed arenas but I know this, I like what we have now and would feel ripped off if folk refuse to go the extra mile trying to make it work. Dang, if you dont want old country men to know you were sleeping with the enemy, you could always open a new account incognito, same six hours deal. Use the trial! Shoot, even the 49ers were welcomed with open arms. Never thought I would live to see that day :x
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: NatCigg on July 13, 2017, 09:37:23 AM
Maxed out arena. Over rated! You know how to be a good fighter pilot right? Well, more fodder of noobs makes that boring role of boom and zoom a little more fun, ego boost off newbies you know.
Fun is playing with a team and good dogfights against another guy, one at a time please. Hehe, greater than one is fun too but that usually results in a heart pounding trip to the tower. Funz.
:airplane:
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Chilli on July 13, 2017, 10:29:55 AM
BW1stpar,
I guess it is in my DNA. I see something great and I want it to be the greatest ever :rock
I will admit, things that really annoy me, I don't even complain about, such as: (now these I qualify as whines = so usually keep to myself or on squad channel)
50 cal disaster = good percentage of ammo tossed due to packet loss??
lack of desire to aid countrymen in anything other than base defense
failing eyesight :cool: difficulty seeing targets
Now, if a couple of you Bishops would hold still while I am on your six, then I wouldn't mind the double in numbers. In fact, I would encourage it :aok
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Zener on July 13, 2017, 11:32:06 AM
Which is pretty sad. It is actually possible to fight back.
- oldman
Oh sure, it is possible, but they probably wouldn't be running a NOE mission if their goal was to go engage a 262 in a set of Lancs, a Goon, or some form of JABO carrying bombs and rockets. What I'm saying is, I've seen those kind of missions run and right from the get-go the notion is that the mission gets to target undetected OR the plan is to bail and try it somewhere else. I don't like the idea personally, just saying that whether I like it or not, whether anyone likes it or not, that's how some guys choose to play.
I've had the bail thing happen to me twice on the same flight. I climbed up to 28K in a FW to intercept some bombers enroute to strats... got within 1500 and as I turned to dive in, POOF, bailed. So I fly back to base still at alt and right about the dar ring I decide to spin the plane down to about 3K or so then rtb. I spin down right on top of (and slightly behind) a NOE mission that I couldn't see from up high, and every man-jack of them bailed. Musta been 12-15 planes in the flight, but they poofed. Way I see it, I just prevented a strat bombing and a potential base take but simply got no points for the effort. They, on the other hand, spent a lot of time climbing and flying NOE for nothing. I didn't consider that flight a waste of my time.
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: 1stpar3 on July 13, 2017, 03:30:06 PM
I guess it is in my DNA. I see something great and I want it to be the greatest ever :rock
I will admit, things that really annoy me, I don't even complain about, such as: (now these I qualify as whines = so usually keep to myself or on squad channel)
50 cal disaster = good percentage of ammo tossed due to packet loss??
lack of desire to aid countrymen in anything other than base defense
failing eyesight :cool: difficulty seeing targets
Now, if a couple of you Bishops would hold still while I am on your six, then I wouldn't mind the double in numbers. In fact, I would encourage it :aok
Just so ya know...I DID NOT go for the jug first!? :neener: Some one HOWEVER who is known to love his RAZORBACK just happened to be the La5 and or F6f NOT MY FAULT :neener: The kill of jug in wirb however, ok it didnt really enter my mind :rock I know where you are coming from, we have chatted about it a few times. I like you, love this game. We are coming from different ends of the spectrum i guess. You have memories of the Good Times and I want to keep what I have now- at least. Better is swell just dont back slide from here.If i was honest about it(and try to be always) I could understand some of the complaints IF coming from those sides of the spectrum. I am not shy about asking questions and am curious by nature, and as you know CHILLI straight forward kind of guy :x I question everything, and its very rare that it is personal directed. I just have too much free time to sit and think. Wish I knew how to fix it and you know ID try :cheers:
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: NatCigg on July 13, 2017, 05:03:57 PM
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: 1stpar3 on July 14, 2017, 12:29:43 AM
Tyfoo's tank on a drag strip?
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: JimmyC on July 14, 2017, 02:15:41 AM
Just a thought but one day we might consider these the good old days.. Not many folks on so often get to have one on one's.. Enough space to get the job done with out huge numbers furballing.. If steam brings in the big numbers I can see a repeat of the moans I used to hear about the good old days..when titanic Tuesday's ruled..the old timers where griping about how the flight etiquette had gone..hos gangbangs..clearing 12s Just a thought but these might be golden times.. I love the game at the moment...not to frantic..knows who's about..numbers are not too opressive..i like our community at present..we know each other friend and foe.. Don't get me wrong..i want an increase in the player base but the grass is not always greener...enjoy what we have. Anyway..just food for thought Stay positive Stay aces high :salute Jimmy
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: TWCAxew on July 14, 2017, 04:34:40 AM
@ JimmyC
+1
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: popeye on July 14, 2017, 07:46:55 AM
What JimmyC said. :aok
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: ACE on July 14, 2017, 07:52:35 AM
Score is useless IMO. Doesn't show true skill at all. The DA is where it counts :)
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Dace on July 14, 2017, 09:57:58 AM
Just a thought but one day we might consider these the good old days.. Not many folks on so often get to have one on one's.. Enough space to get the job done with out huge numbers furballing.. If steam brings in the big numbers I can see a repeat of the moans I used to hear about the good old days..when titanic Tuesday's ruled..the old timers where griping about how the flight etiquette had gone..hos gangbangs..clearing 12s Just a thought but these might be golden times.. I love the game at the moment...not to frantic..knows who's about..numbers are not too opressive..i like our community at present..we know each other friend and foe.. Don't get me wrong..i want an increase in the player base but the grass is not always greener...enjoy what we have. Anyway..just food for thought Stay positive Stay aces high :salute Jimmy
Good stuff Jimmy. :salute
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: JimmyD3 on July 14, 2017, 10:32:34 AM
Just a thought but one day we might consider these the good old days.. Not many folks on so often get to have one on one's.. Enough space to get the job done with out huge numbers furballing.. If steam brings in the big numbers I can see a repeat of the moans I used to hear about the good old days..when titanic Tuesday's ruled..the old timers where griping about how the flight etiquette had gone..hos gangbangs..clearing 12s Just a thought but these might be golden times.. I love the game at the moment...not to frantic..knows who's about..numbers are not too opressive..i like our community at present..we know each other friend and foe.. Don't get me wrong..i want an increase in the player base but the grass is not always greener...enjoy what we have. Anyway..just food for thought Stay positive Stay aces high :salute Jimmy
This! :aok
...and I must have lucked out but did enjoy a number of 1 v 1's this past week and even survived some of them :D
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: SPKmes on July 16, 2017, 09:19:51 PM
Just a thought but one day we might consider these the good old days.. Not many folks on so often get to have one on one's.. Enough space to get the job done with out huge numbers furballing.. If steam brings in the big numbers I can see a repeat of the moans I used to hear about the good old days..when titanic Tuesday's ruled..the old timers where griping about how the flight etiquette had gone..hos gangbangs..clearing 12s Just a thought but these might be golden times.. I love the game at the moment...not to frantic..knows who's about..numbers are not too opressive..i like our community at present..we know each other friend and foe.. Don't get me wrong..i want an increase in the player base but the grass is not always greener...enjoy what we have. Anyway..just food for thought Stay positive Stay aces high :salute Jimmy
Jimmy :furious ... Seriously dude.... why do you have to come in here all level headed and the like and make sense.....
Hahaha.... good on ya man.... :salute...see you back up when you get home :airplane: :joystick: :ahand :angel: :bolt: :D
Title: Re: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion
Post by: Shuffler on July 16, 2017, 10:23:22 PM