Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: FLS on August 05, 2017, 11:38:01 AM
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Here are some tips if you struggle with formation.
Formation flying.
Good formation keeps everyone in positions of mutual support and increases situational awareness
Thrust settings.
The lead aircraft needs to reduce thrust so everyone else has extra thrust to use for holding position. If everyone else has reduced thrust for fuel conservation the lead needs to reduce a little more.
Power and RPM settings reported by the lead aircraft are just guides, all aircraft should use whatever power they need to stay in position.
Any pitch change changes your speed. Stay level after you climb to altitude and in turns to the target. Required pitch changes should be smooth.
Forming up.
Pulling power to slow down makes it difficult for everyone to match speeds, it's best to use geometry to form up.
When forming up a large group on take off the lead aircraft can circle the field so stragglers can cut across the turn circle to join up.
If you want to maintain a heading instead of circling you can fly flat S turns to let stragglers join you by flying straight on the desired heading.
An aircraft that drops behind can trade a little altitude for acceleration then fly in front of the group so when the straggler regains altitude and slows down he won't be behind again.
Combat spread.
Close formation is fun and it's easier to maneuver together in close formation but for fighter aircraft combat spread is better for imminent contact with the enemy.
When you go to combat spread it's harder to match the lead aircraft so the lead aircraft needs to state their heading and speed and report any heading and speed changes.
Combat spread is a distance that lets you clear your wingman's 6. Don't get too far away and don't be too close. I like to use max gun range as a guide.
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Here are some tips if you struggle with formation.
Formation flying.
Good formation keeps everyone in positions of mutual support and increases situational awareness
Thrust settings.
The lead aircraft needs to reduce thrust so everyone else has extra thrust to use for holding position. If everyone else has reduced thrust for fuel conservation the lead needs to reduce a little more.
Power and RPM settings reported by the lead aircraft are just guides, all aircraft should use whatever power they need to stay in position.
Any pitch change changes your speed. Stay level after you climb to altitude and in turns to the target. Required pitch changes should be smooth.
Forming up.
Pulling power to slow down makes it difficult for everyone to match speeds, it's best to use geometry to form up.
When forming up a large group on take off the lead aircraft can circle the field so stragglers can cut across the turn circle to join up.
If you want to maintain a heading instead of circling you can fly flat S turns to let stragglers join you by flying straight to you.
An aircraft that drops behind can trade a little altitude for acceleration then fly in front of the group so when the straggler regains altitude and slows down he won't be behind again.
Combat spread.
Close formation is fun and it's easier to maneuver together in close formation but combat spread is better for imminent contact with the enemy.
When you go to combat spread it's harder to match the lead aircraft so the lead aircraft needs to state their heading and speed and report any heading and speed changes.
Combat spread is a distance that lets you clear your wingman's 6. Don't get too far away and don't be too close. I like to use max gun range as a guide.
Good info FLS.
A very common occurance for lead to takeoff with full power, hold it there, and climb straight out. The next call on the radio is lead telling everyone to join up because the formation is strung out. The ONLY solution is or those in trail to us WEP, if they are so equipped. The result is excess fuel consumption for everyone in trail, resulting in less flying time except, of course, for the flight lead. This common practice demonstrates a complete lack of wingman consideration.
From experience, an 800-1,000 spread is an effective spread distance which allows for good mutual check six coverage. It allows for effective engagement with a bogie that jumps the other plane in formation. Typically, any farther out of a spread will allow a bogie time to tap and kill the engaged fighter before the supporting fighter can get into lethal firing position.
For bombers, the tighter the formation spread the better. This allows for more concentrated fire support against attacking fighters. :salute
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Good points.
I should have specified combat spread is for fighters.
Also a straggler catching a group flying flat S turns flies the desired heading not at the group.
Edited post for both points. :salute
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Circling the field is certainly the best technique to get everyone formed up and settled into the enroute formation. Even with this technique, the flight lead must climb at reduced power to allow a more expeditious rejoin by the rest of the flight.
Good to hear someone finally putting this technique out there. It is seldom seen in practice. :salute
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Good stuff gents, thank you! :aok :salute
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A common rookie mistake:
Do not follow your leader by flying directly behind him, especially not his low 6 position - he cant see you. Always keep a little sideways latteral separation. The rule of thumb is that you must be able to see his cockpit canopy.
I really hate it when people fly up my low 6...
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A common rookie mistake:
Do not follow your leader by flying directly behind him, especially not his low 6 position - he cant see you. Always keep a little sideways latteral separation. The rule of thumb is that you must be able to see his cockpit canopy.
I really hate it when people fly up my low 6...
It will take more than being able to see your canopy for a wingman to provide effective six coverage for you. If he/she is in a trail position able to see your canopy, you won't be able to clear their six. The wingman in this case will be the sacrificial lamb when a bogie sneaks up from both of your deep sixes. A line abreast formation is optimum for effective formation mutual support. Hopefully, those flying at your low Six aren't at a power disadvantage.
Another frequent lack of wingmen consideration is in the descent back to base after a successful mission. If the flight lead pulls power all the way to the idle stop, the wingman has no power advantage when he/she also pulls to the idle stop. Without speed brakes in this situation, a wingman has no way of staying in position short of lowering landing gear or flaps. Neither of which is an acceptable situation. So, in the descent, the flight lead should pull power to a point somewhere short of the idle stop. This will allow wingman to pull off more power to prevent overrunning lead.
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puma,
seeing the leader's canopy is just an indication that he should be able to see you, not that you are in the optimal position.
I was thinking about MA missions or special events when you get ad hoc wingmen. Inexperienced players tend to just follow you around and it drives me crazy that they hide under my tail.
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puma,
seeing the leader's canopy is just an indication that he should be able to see you, not that you are in the optimal position.
I was thinking about MA missions or special events when you get ad hoc wingmen. Inexperienced players tend to just follow you around and it drives me crazy that they hide under my tail.
They aren't hiding, that's just where newbies end up before they learn formation flying. It can also indicate the lead is using too much power.
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I should have said "hidden" not "hide".
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I knew you weren't being literal, my point is the same. Untrained pilots generally end up on your low 6. Adjustments by the lead pilot are helppful whether it's verbal instruction or power adjustments or both.
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They aren't hiding, that's just where newbies end up before they learn formation flying. It can also indicate the lead is using too much power.
If you have a second-in-command, it's a good idea for him to take the tail end position, so that he can watch the entire formation.
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puma,
seeing the leader's canopy is just an indication that he should be able to see you, not that you are in the optimal position.
I was thinking about MA missions or special events when you get ad hoc wingmen. Inexperienced players tend to just follow you around and it drives me crazy that they hide under my tail.
Understand. It was a bit unclear what you were describing. So, default was the normal lead at full power stringing the "formation" out across the sector on the way to the target.
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They aren't hiding, that's just where newbies end up before they learn formation flying. It can also indicate the lead is using too much power.
It's unfortunate that newbies learn formation flying by trial and error vs training in the effective way to do it.
The vast majority of the time, it's lead with full power set. That scenario is seen every day with a string of aircraft heading to the target area.
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The vast majority of the time, it's lead with full power set. That scenario is seen every day with a string of aircraft heading to the target area.
hehe
A guy that taught me some about formation flying made me join without using power adjustments. Of course lead has to cooperate and we were in airplanes with similar performance...good learning experience.
Another thing I see in game is lead flying at airspeed extremes, especially very low climb speeds. Lead has to give wing some margin, if Lead is at the limit of aircraft envelope then wing is screwed.
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hehe
A guy that taught me some about formation flying made me join without using power adjustments. Of course lead has to cooperate and we were in airplanes with similar performance...good learning experience.
Another thing I see in game is lead flying at airspeed extremes, especially very low climb speeds. Lead has to give wing some margin, if Lead is at the limit of aircraft envelope then wing is screwed.
Good point. Another aspect that is seldom seen or discussed: energy management.
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Good point. Another aspect that is seldom seen or discussed: energy management.
You guys almost...... sound like you know what you're doing!
:devil
:salute
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Y'all have a lot more experience than me, but one thing I thought might be helpful to add to this thread, based on the wingman clinics I've done with quite a few squad wing-pairs, is maintaining a combat spread (500-800 yards apart, line abreast) after making a 90-degree tac (or "crossing") turn.
What often happens is a lead calls a turn and immediately makes a turn away from his wingman. The wingman then follows, but this results in them now being in trail, instead of maintaining combat spread.
The basics of a tac turn are simple and make it easy to maintain formation:
1) The lead calls the tac turn (left or right)
2) The outside element turns first (if turning left, the element on the right is "outside", if turning right the element on the left if "outside").
3) The inside element waits (stays on current heading) until the outside element is nose on and then begins the turn. In other words, as inside element you wait to turn until your wingman is pointing at you (at roughly at your 5 o'clock or 7 o'clock position depending on the direction of turn), and before they reach your 6 o'clock position.
4) The lead and wing elements will have swapped (crossed) to opposite sides of the formation but will have maintained the same combat spread.
See the pics below:
(http://i1028.photobucket.com/albums/y346/desp304/TacturnA10_zps9c287d82.png)
(http://617dambusters.com/myPictures/ACM/crossover_turn.jpg)
One key here is for the both elements to turn at roughly the same rate (bank-angle and G). Learning to make standard rate turns together is something to practice.
I think this is also good for the wingman to lose the habit of trying to follow the lead around through turns, and instead learn to trust that proper timing and execution of maneuvers will keep you in positions of mutual support.
Hope this post is helpful too.
<S>
Kingpin
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Great stuff to add, Kingpin! TAC turns are very rarely seen in game. To do them effectively requires a lot of practice, practice, practice....... They can also be done comm out. This adds a whole new dimension and requires even more practice.
There are also in place turns, cross turns, and partial turns that again require dedicated practice and can also be accomplished common out.
Your "crossover" turn to the right diagram should be labeled as a TAC right or 90 right. Labeling it as a crossover isn't accurate and may lead to confusion with an actual "cross turn" :salute
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plished common out.
Your "crossover" turn to the right diagram should be labeled as a TAC right or 90 right. Labeling it as a crossover isn't accurate and may lead to confusion with an actual "cross turn" :salute
Agreed. Unfortunately, that was a sourced image from the web and the only one I could find clearly demonstrating a TAC right.
Here is another source (Navy flight manual) which elaborates on and diagrams tac turns, in place turns and cross turns:
http://navyflightmanuals.tpub.com/P-1221/Tac-Turn-27.htm (http://navyflightmanuals.tpub.com/P-1221/Tac-Turn-27.htm)
I am a big believer in the effectiveness of maintaining a combat spread for everything from SA, to defensive support, to bracketing into a merge. Keeping formation with minimal effort was something I practiced extensively with my FSO wingman and is a huge advantage in squad ops, as it reduces time spent looking inside your cockpit or directly at your wingman. Instead it lets you fly more with your eyes outside the cockpit - a huge advantage over the guy staring at his wingman to stay in formation.
<S>
Kingpin
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The Navy Manual is a great resource for the basics.
Just for consideration, an 800 ft spread should be the minimum. Any closer risks both members of a two ship getting tagged by someone who is accurate out to 500 ft or beyond. A wider spread also allows the supporting fighter time and distance to maneuver out of plane to a firing solution on the bandit without being close enough for a switch up. Too close and the bandit can simple switch off to the supporting wingman if the geometry favors it. :salute
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VF-17 did some line abreast practice, while it sounds so easy, it was incredibly hard to get, and keep, everyone lined up. This was in the training arena with long icon ranges, FSO icon ranges would be WAY harder.
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You're correct Hyzer. It takes a lot of dedicated practice and teamwork to make it work correctly. It's essential to practice with the same wingman in order to learn each other's flying style and habits. Unfortunately, disciplined formation flying is rarely seen in game. Typically, most of the in game formations are of the "same way, same day" style. :salute
:airplane:
:airplane:
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Great stuff to add, Kingpin! TAC turns are very rarely seen in game. To do them effectively requires a lot of practice, practice, practice....... They can also be done comm out. This adds a whole new dimension and requires even more practice.
There are also in place turns, cross turns, and partial turns that again require dedicated practice and can also be accomplished common out.
Your "crossover" turn to the right diagram should be labeled as a TAC right or 90 right. Labeling it as a crossover isn't accurate and may lead to confusion with an actual "cross turn" :salute
Spell checker strikes again! "Common out" should read "comm out".
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VF-17 did some line abreast practice, while it sounds so easy, it was incredibly hard to get, and keep, everyone lined up. This was in the training arena with long icon ranges, FSO icon ranges would be WAY harder.
That's why the formation leader needs to state heading, altitude, and speed. You're too far away for visual references. In Aces High people aren't used to flying a given heading and speed but it's a basic skill for professional pilots.
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That's why the formation leader needs to state heading, altitude, and speed. You're too far away for visual references. In Aces High people aren't used to flying a given heading and speed but it's a basic skill for professional pilots.
Very true. But, with motivation to learn it can be done effectively, completely comm out.
Several years ago, Jappa52 asked to learn formation flying. We started from the very basic level and over the next few months were flying completely comm out tactical formation to and from the engagement area. We did fingertip formation takeoffs, tactical splits off the runway, tactical enroute, and into engagements with mutual support fights (a whole other subject of discussion). We would then RTB in tactical spread to an overhead pitch out to landing, or fly a fingertip formation approach and landing.
Jappa52 was completely new to formation flying. But, he was extremely motivated and willing to dedicate the time and learn. In time, we were a well oiled tactical team. Very rewarding and a lot of fun but, a lot of hard work and practice to get there. :salute
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I agree it's a useful skill in Aces High. I also recommend formation aerobatics for skill building.
The easiest and probably most fun way to be successful in Aces High is with a good wingman. :aok
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Absolutely! :D
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Several years ago, Jappa52 asked to learn formation flying.
I remember that.
- oldman (who is beginning to forget much else)
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The Navy Manual is a great resource for the basics.
Just for consideration, an 800 ft spread should be the minimum. Any closer risks both members of a two ship getting tagged by someone who is accurate out to 500 ft or beyond. A wider spread also allows the supporting fighter time and distance to maneuver out of plane to a firing solution on the bandit without being close enough for a switch up. Too close and the bandit can simple switch off to the supporting wingman if the geometry favors it. :salute
500 FEET? You talking about Icon ranges which are yrds(i believe or actual 12" ft)? I get killed by lots of guys inside 500 yrds lol Of coarse convergence settings are why most players cant hit much inside 500 FT or 45 yrds. They set up for the max range and spray all the way in. It gets confusing with the Foot and Yard terms. 1 persons ft is yards and vice versa Si i am assuming the distances are referred too in YARDS and ft was mistyped?
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500 FEET? You talking about Icon ranges which are yrds(i believe or actual 12" ft)? I get killed by lots of guys inside 500 yrds lol Of coarse convergence settings are why most players cant hit much inside 500 FT or 45 yrds. They set up for the max range and spray all the way in. It gets confusing with the Foot and Yard terms. 1 persons ft is yards and vice versa Si i am assuming the distances are referred too in YARDS and ft was mistyped?
I stand corrected. A misprint on my part. My point being that inside 800 yds, there's a very real chance of someone tagging you both on one pass.
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:aok That was my assumption! I am too old to rely on any assumption of mine...like trusting a fart. Old enough to know better BUT to old to care! Sort of :x
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:aok That was my assumption! I am too old to rely on any assumption of mine...like trusting a fart. Old enough to know better BUT to old to care! Sort of :x
s
Zactly! :rofl
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:aok That was my assumption! I am too old to rely on any assumption of mine...like trusting a fart. Old enough to know better BUT to old to care! Sort of :x
Good catch. I just read it as yards, even though it clearly says ft, since yards made sense in context.
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Pesky brain fart..... :O
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Pesky brain fart..... :O
Your so old you need a depends headband! :devil
:salute
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That's for sure! :x
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Your so old you need a depends headband! :devil
:salute
And THIS is why I love this GAME (and most of those who play it) :D Kindred Spirits aka smart arses extraordinaire :devil
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And THIS is why I love this GAME (and most of those who play it) :D Kindred Spirits aka smart arses extraordinaire :devil
I would never say such a thing,except Puma is an old friend and he knew I was joking! We're both so old we forget what we are arguing about...... :furious
:salute
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What?! Did you say something Morf? :)
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Get a room you two :rofl
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You so funnnnny golf boy! :D