Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: nrshida on August 25, 2017, 01:54:52 PM
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With the anticipated influx of Steam players, I had an idea to teach BFM and ACM without needing a 1 on 1 session with a trainer or anyone else:
In many racing games a ghost car is available to show the previous or fastest lap. I was thinking it would be useful to have an area in the Training Arena or in an offline mode where one aircraft is flying a set BFM pattern, with it's icon displaying the manoeuvre it is performing. For instance CHA for Chandelle, IMM for Immelmann etc. The ghost plane would fly it's manoeuvre and then gently fly back to a start position or otherwise link several pieces of complimentary endless BFM together: IMM, SPS, IMM, SPS. HYO, LYO, HYO, LYO... etc.
A new player could try to copy the 'ideal' manoeuvre, trying to follow or match position with the ghost plane practicing plane control and muscle memory.
Secondly, two ghost planes could demonstrate relative ACM, like high yo-yo following a flat turn, BRD, flat scissors, rolling scissors, Hartmann Manoeuvre etc. The new player could then follow either ghost plane and gain orientation or understanding.
I further thought the film viewer could have an additional 'output a set piece' feature which could be submitted for later use by anyone. These could be gathered in especially interesting fights or choreographed set pieces of ACM. Perhaps the trainers could approve those. The film viewer could record the two spline curves and relevant positional vectors and velocities, and just transplant those flightpaths to the relevant training space. Thus the BFM / ACM ghost plane area could be an organically growing feature. Also skilled / experienced players could 'fly their own tutorials' so-to-speak. A huge variety of different plane matchups could be presented.
I think this could compliment the new video tutorials and would be an advanced and innovative approach to overcoming the steep initial learning curve.
Worth a constructive discussion perhaps?
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Awesome idea! A button to start the ghost in front of you so you could follow it easily would be excellent.
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The big difference is aircraft don't follow a race track. I think it's better to just explain and demonstrate lead and lag pursuit.
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A race track is a good start for someone who's never BFM'd before. :aok
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There are many ways to go wrong. It's best to have a trainer watch you and tell you what you need to do and why it works.
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it would be useful to have an area in the Training Arena or in an offline mode where one aircraft is flying a set BFM pattern, with it's icon displaying the manoeuvre it is performing.
Seems to me that Chuck Yeager's Combat Flight Simulator had this feature.
You, of course, were much too young to remember that, but it worked very well.
+1
- oldman
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I remember "Yeager vision" in that game.
The offline drones are useful if you know what to practice.
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Definitely deserves a good discussion but you won't get that from a certain someone in here....get laid out 1v1 but he knows everything lol
Airspawns could put you behind the ghost plane and let you follow behind it.....dont they already have these in the offline missions?
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This would be much different. You can't get the current AI to fly specific maneuvers as far as I know.
Or wait, you meant the air spawns that some missions can start you with? That's a great option too. That would start you at the right airspeed to follow the ghost plane right away.
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The big difference is aircraft don't follow a race track.
The race track is analogous to the flightpath of the 'ideal' manoeuvre. There are many lines even within the confines of a race track.
I think it's better to just explain and demonstrate lead and lag pursuit.
I'm suggesting this as a starting point. Pursuit curves might be an intermediate topic for noobs, after BFM. Could also show these with such a system I think.
It's best to have a trainer watch you and tell you what you need to do and why it works.
1 on 1 training would be ideal. What if Steam brings a LARGE dollop of players, many new to flight sims? Then the appointment with an individual trainer approach would be overloaded. Also if this feature is known it might attrack new players to a genre they might have been wary of before.
Seems to me that Chuck Yeager's Combat Flight Simulator had this feature.
Oh I didn't know that. Aces High is my first flight sim. Apologies to the original innovator :salute
Airspawns could put you behind the ghost plane and let you follow behind it.....
Good idea.
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See Rule #4
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IMO you won't learn a maneuver by following a drone through it. Sure, you can manipulate the control to stay with the drone and you will fly the same maneuver but you won't have a good understanding of what it takes to fly the maneuver. Will you really know how to fly it without following the drone?
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How could you not have a good understanding of what it takes to fly the maneuver after you've just flown the maneuver?
I agree that following a drone is one thing and doing it on your own is another, but following the drone is still a good start.
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Will you really know how to fly it without following the drone?
Has to help develop muscle memory and the visual cues. There are precedents in other sports. Also when you do get a session with a trainer or squadmate, the conversations are going to make a lot more sense. Then the refinement can come with time.
It's only a creative suggestion. Just looking forward and trying to help.
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Higher level ACM can only be 1. Taught by people who can perform very high level CAM and 2. Only be enhanced from practice vs others with high level or better.
The OP is not asking for a high level, this is like follow a drone through a split S or immelman so that when someone talks to them about it they don't have to explain those things because they already have the basic understanding.
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The race track is analogous to the flightpath of the 'ideal' manoeuvre. There are many lines even within the confines of a race track.
I'm suggesting this as a starting point. Pursuit curves might be an intermediate topic for noobs, after BFM. Could also show these with such a system I think.
1 on 1 training would be ideal. What if Steam brings a LARGE dollop of players, many new to flight sims? Then the appointment with an individual trainer approach would be overloaded. Also if this feature is known it might attrack new players to a genre they might have been wary of before. ...
If you do any racing you know following the right line doesn't keep you on the track. Following a ghost car or a guide line doesn't tell you why one line is the best line for that moment. It doesn't tell you how to brake, balance the car into the corner, or accelerate out of it.
If we get more training requests than we can handle we can schedule clinics on flight and ACM basics.
Any new player can follow their AI wingman in free missions and get the experience you want from a ghost plane.
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How much different is this than getting films of Junky doing ACM against others of equal skill to junky and either riding in his cockpit or in external view from behind? I think 5 minutes with FLS or Morph is a better long term solution. You really cannot learn gunnery offline because the drones are flying at speeds that require a 65mph reticle to calculate lead. In the MA combat is at 100mph reticle speeds.
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The offline drones fly in a circle. Circles are basic to ACM. The drones allow you to see the effect of lead and lag pursuit which are basic tools of ACM.
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How much different is this than getting films of Junky doing ACM against others of equal skill to junky and either riding in his cockpit or in external view from behind?
Because you have to do it.
Following a ghost car or a guide line doesn't tell you why one line is the best line for that moment. It doesn't tell you how to brake, balance the car into the corner, or accelerate out of it.
In order to reach refinement and subtlety, you must first be exposed to the basics.
If you do any racing you know following the right line doesn't keep you on the track.
Are you talking about cutting? I think you are splitting hairs frankly.
If we get more training requests than we can handle we can schedule clinics on flight and ACM basics.
Clearly you're very opposed to the idea. What percentage of current players have had appointments with trainers?
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I'm only opposed to HTC wasting time on it. If you want to do it go for it. :aok
I'm not splitting hairs about racing, you don't seem to know much about it but I'm just here to help with your flying.
I think the best comparison between racing and flying is the region in the traction limit and the region in the lift limit where you get more drag without increased performance. Learning to approach that edge without going too far requires practice based on the knowledge of the basic physics. Practicing prior to the knowledge is likely to induce poor habits.
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I'm only opposed to HTC wasting time on it. If you want to do it go for it. :aok
I didn't guesstimate it would be an enormous investment of time. Basically drones along flightpaths and some new icon functionality. Observably much of what is necessary is already in place. Work must be balanced against the return obviously. I'm sure HTC would do that before deciding to commence any work.
I'm not splitting hairs about racing, you don't seem to know much about it but I'm just here to help with your flying.
Excellent, excellent. A feint ad hominem to mask a trivial objection fallacy followed by an unsubstantiated assertion of superiority. All in a single sentence. I would expect no less when good old FLS is emotionally invested in anything AH related. :rofl
I don't need this feature. Ideation is one of my strong points. I can throw ideas up only motivated to help the game and hopefully some constructive discussion can ensue. If an idea is illustrated or convincingly shown to be fundamentally bad or an absolute stinker then that's also fine. That's how the creative process works and the ideas come for free.
I thought this was a Wishlist (/ suggestion box) discussion forum. Not a board approval for features which do or do not meet with the agendas of individuals.
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Try to stay on point next time.
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:huh
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I think there is great potential here for getting new players a bit more confident in the feeding pit of the MA
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How much different is this than getting films of Junky doing ACM against others of equal skill to junky and either riding in his cockpit or in external view from behind? I think 5 minutes with FLS or Morph is a better long term solution. You really cannot learn gunnery offline because the drones are flying at speeds that require a 65mph reticle to calculate lead. In the MA combat is at 100mph reticle speeds.
You always talk about how much of the population doesn't actually come to the BBS...maybe thats the reason more people don't request training, maybe they don't want to have a training session...I don't know what the new guys reason is for not going to the TA.
Issue with following a film is you aren't doing it yourself...same with a cockpit ride along, F3 mode is nowhere close to being helpful at all for manuevering.
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I think there is great potential here for getting new players a bit more confident in the feeding pit of the MA
If it's fun and helps retain players then it's good. As a teaching tool it's not better than what we have already.
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How could you not have a good understanding of what it takes to fly the maneuver after you've just flown the maneuver?
I agree that following a drone is one thing and doing it on your own is another, but following the drone is still a good start.
Following a drone will make you one heck of a formation pilot.
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Try to stay on point next time.
Try to be less obtuse next time.
Practicing prior to the knowledge is likely to induce poor habits.
I do not think this is correct. Didactically speaking progress can still be made and faults recognised and corrected later. Consider top-level athletes who reconstruct their technique to great effect. Look for instance at the advancement of Valentino Rossi's cornering technique through the decades. Since you're also a bit of a racing expert :)
As a teaching tool it's not better than what we have already.
Assuming the numbers requesting training do not exponentially grow. Your clinic idea suggested earlier is also no longer 1 on 1 training.
This idea is pitched at the eventuality of an unprecedented dollop of new players from Steam. Having things like this might open the appeal of the game to those who haven't tried flight simulators before. It's merely intended to help with that initial bump on the learning curve of BFM / ACM. Then the more important material can get more focus & energy.
Anyway, I have made the suggestion and perhaps some interesting points have been raised. I have other creative projects to work on. Some of those even pay :rofl
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... Your clinic idea suggested earlier is also no longer 1 on 1 training.
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That depends on how many show up.
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If it's fun and helps retain players then it's good. As a teaching tool it's not better than what we have already.
Nobody is saying it is but I also don't see 1000 people here asking for a 1 on 1 training session....
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I don't see any good arguments.
You see 1000 people asking for ghost planes?
You see Hitech complaining he has too much time on his hands lately?
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I don't see any good arguments.
You see 1000 people asking for ghost planes?
You see Hitech complaining he has too much time on his hands lately?
Hitech already has most of what he needs for this already done guy....He can set air spawns, he has ghost planes, he has an arena he can put them in...I know there's a lot more he'd have to do but this is one of those things that doesn't seem like a stretch where you immediately dismiss it....especially if the reason is to help new players....THAT IN ITSELF IS PLENTY OF A GOOD ARGUMENT you stubborn trainer...only one who constantly says no to anything especially when it comes to training new players.
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See Rule #4
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Hitech already has most of what he needs for this already done guy....He can set air spawns, he has ghost planes, he has an arena he can put them in...I know there's a lot more he'd have to do but this is one of those things that doesn't seem like a stretch where you immediately dismiss it....especially if the reason is to help new players....THAT IN ITSELF IS PLENTY OF A GOOD ARGUMENT you stubborn trainer...only one who constantly says no to anything especially when it comes to training new players.
Nrshida asked for a discussion based on an idle thought. He didn't ask for agreement. A discussion is not a consensus. It's an exchange of views. We exchanged views until he started getting personal as usual. Learn to live with different viewpoints. Come up with a good idea and I'll support it.
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Enough about FLS, any more thoughts on the suggestion?
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Nrshida asked for a discussion based on an idle thought. He didn't ask for agreement. A discussion is not a consensus. It's an exchange of views. We exchanged views until he started getting personal as usual. Learn to live with different viewpoints.
No no no. Stating your subjective perspective of proceedings does not make it reality. From my subjective perspective (for balance) it was abundantly clear you objected to the idea from the outset, for no good reason I could see. Probably threatened an area you think is your domain I should imagine. It did not even cross my mind to consider this and nor should it. My motivation is to support HTC with their new Steam venture.
You had plenty of opportunity to contend the suggestion rationally and logically but instead you started with your usual informal fallacies, misdirection and feint personal insults or devaluations as you usually do when you don't like a suggestion but cannot make a rational argument against it.
I can happily live with different viewpoints. And I certainly can take criticism of ideation. You didn't do that. Your best line would have been to neutralise the importance I placed in new players taking time with BFM and elemental ACM by themselves - my weakest element of the idea since I taught myself BFM / ACM and you are (allegedly) the expert in training and more importantly - Didactic method.
You might believe you make a convincing surface appearance of rationality and objectivity but your proclivity for unsupported personal preference & stealth trolling is becoming more and more obvious to everyone each time you do this.
Come up with a good idea and I'll support it.
This implies 1. We have to get your approval for any idea before it goes and further (false) and 2. That you are qualified to recognise and abstractly analyse a good idea (which I have to question since your imagination seems either catastrophically atrophied or absent in the first place).
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I always believed that Aces High should have a training academy set up like there was in Air Warrior where a player could enroll in the Air Warrior Training Academy and take, IIRC, a 6 week course on how to play the game and beginning, intermediate and advanced ACM and combat tactics as well as various courses on subjects like plane comparisons, etc. It was great, I myself learned a lot from it and made me a far better player afterwards.
ack-ack
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Shida, for what it's worth I'll donate my time showing the advanced maneuvers I've learned over the years in some 1v1s. I'll record the flight if someonen wants to put it into a video an edit.
Used to have a library of films when I came back 5 months ago and was on a rampage in match play lol. Lost them from not backing up :(
But I'm willing to help these new guys out with films, videos etc
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4