Just saying if they get credit for killing you doesn't it stand to reason you should get credit for killing them?
+1
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: hitech on August 29, 2017, 03:07:56 PM
Acks are not scored in any way, killing them does give you score.
HiTech
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: wil3ur on August 29, 2017, 03:15:33 PM
How about just a killed message, "You have shot down (soandso)" with no # behind it so we can shame people camping in manned guns without having to resort to shutting down the game and jumping in film viewer?
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Zoney on August 29, 2017, 03:18:28 PM
How about just a killed message, "You have shot down (soandso)" with no # behind it so we can shame people camping in manned guns without having to resort to shutting down the game and jumping in film viewer?
No, how about we don't shame anyone who has found their fun and is paying their 14.95 to play just like you.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: wil3ur on August 29, 2017, 03:20:22 PM
My fun is shaming people on 200. :banana:
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Vraciu on August 29, 2017, 03:33:23 PM
Acks are not scored in any way, killing them does give you score.
HiTech
But it doesn't hurt the gunner. When they shoot us, however, they ruin streaks, crush K/D ratio, etc. All reward, no risk--for the gunner. I think that's the point the OP was getting at.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: hitech on August 29, 2017, 04:19:39 PM
But it doesn't hurt the gunner. When they shoot us, however, they ruin streaks, crush K/D ratio, etc. All reward, no risk--for the gunner. I think that's the point the OP was getting at.
Ahhhh poor baby , he had his kill streak shortened because he flew into a FIXED base defense to vulch and wants to blame someone else.
HiTech
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: ACE on August 29, 2017, 04:35:53 PM
Ahhhh poor baby , he had his kill streak shortened because he flew into a FIXED base defense to vulch and wants to blame someone else.
HiTech
Wow, you took the words out of several people's mouths.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: YUCCA on August 29, 2017, 04:54:54 PM
Not entirely sure who's HT's post was directed at. If it were me it's not about blaming someone. A squad mate posed the question the other day. It was a question posted in the right forum category and a simple one. Not trying to ruffle feathers.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Wiley on August 29, 2017, 05:00:22 PM
So... the proper thing to do then is not chase the guy that dives a sector and a half from 20k to run to his ack?
Wiley.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: hitech on August 29, 2017, 05:03:51 PM
So... the proper thing to do then is not chase the guy that dives a sector and a half from 20k to run to his ack?
Wiley.
Oh you definitely chase them. Deack the field if necessary. No runners. :devil
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: wil3ur on August 29, 2017, 06:03:38 PM
I've got no problem sacrificing myself to the AAA gods chasing a runner. There are times when combat is so hard to find, it's the best you're going to get. If the guy gets a proxy off of me because I actually want to do combat in a combat sim, so be it.
I just find it exceptionally hilarious when they take to 200 afterwards to gloat about how they lured me into their ack. Sorry, nope. I'm more than capable of orbiting a field and staying out of your guns -- I'll even disable the 88's just to make sure there are no surprises. Don't ever equate your lack of manhood to me just wanting to fly. :joystick: :airplane: :aok
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Vraciu on August 29, 2017, 06:20:30 PM
Not entirely sure who's HT's post was directed at. If it were me it's not about blaming someone. A squad mate posed the question the other day. It was a question posted in the right forum category and a simple one. Not trying to ruffle feathers.
Me either. Just politely expressing my thoughts... :salute :cheers:
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Vraciu on August 29, 2017, 07:18:28 PM
Because you constantly use inaccurate hyperbole to try boaster your whining arguments.
HiTech
Not picking a fight here but what's inaccurate or hyperbole about it? There is ZERO risk to be in manned ack. The fighter/bomber has 100% risk for very little upside. That's a fact.
Tonight was a perfect example. I'm in a fight around a base and pop an ack gun. I get potted by someone in one and PK'd to tower. Kill streak ended. K/D drops. K/S drops. Guy in manned gun....worst case scenario for him? He gets towered. Even if I kill him ten times he still hurts me more than I hurt him.
It's your game. You make the rules. But nothing I've said is even close to hyperbole (intentional exaggeration). Feel free to explain how I'm wrong if you wish. I'm sure others would appreciate it as well.
:salute
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: hitech on August 29, 2017, 10:00:31 PM
Not picking a fight here but what's inaccurate or hyperbole about it? There is ZERO risk to be in manned ack. The fighter/bomber has 100% risk for very little upside. That's a fact.
Tonight was a perfect example. I'm in a fight around a base and pop an ack gun. I get potted by someone in one and PK'd to tower. Kill streak ended. K/D drops. K/S drops. Guy in manned gun....worst case scenario for him? He gets towered. Even if I kill him ten times he still hurts me more than I hurt him.
It's your game. You make the rules. But nothing I've said is even close to hyperbole (intentional exaggeration). Feel free to explain how I'm wrong if you wish. I'm sure others would appreciate it as well.
:salute
Thanks for proving my point.
HiTech
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Vraciu on August 29, 2017, 10:00:38 PM
Someone who always used hyperbole and thought of it as persuasive language might think that hyperbole required more exaggeration. They would be wrong. Totally ;)
Hope this helps. :cheers:
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: haggerty on August 30, 2017, 02:25:04 AM
I dont think a kill should be granted for popping a manned gun, but a death should be granted to the defender. There is a reason manned guns are consistently at the top of the kill board every tour, high reward with no risk. I can't imagine anything will ever change on this matter with the response you got though.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Ack-Ack on August 30, 2017, 02:35:58 AM
I dont think a kill should be granted for popping a manned gun, but a death should be granted to the defender. There is a reason manned guns are consistently at the top of the kill board every tour, high reward with no risk. I can't imagine anything will ever change on this matter with the response you got though.
There is no reward for getting kills in a manned gun other than seeing your name in lights when you tower out. Kills in a manned gun aren't scored nor are you awarded any perks but a plane that kills a manned ack is scored for it.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: haggerty on August 30, 2017, 02:47:15 AM
No one cares about scores, most people want to either have fun or survive. The amount of points you get for attacking a manned gun are minuscule compared to the risk you are taking flying within 10k of a base. If people are given a death for dieing in a manned gun they will be more likely to up and fight and realize that dog fighting might be more fun than firing OP puff balls.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Volron on August 30, 2017, 03:16:41 AM
No one cares about scores, most people want to either have fun or survive. The amount of points you get for attacking a manned gun are minuscule compared to the risk you are taking flying within 10k of a base. If people are given a death for dieing in a manned gun they will be more likely to up and fight and realize that dog fighting might be more fun than firing OP puff balls.
So let me get this straight: You are saying that no one cares about scores, but then you think that they will more inclined to stop using manned guns if it were to count as a death when destroyed?
Am I the only one finding something a bit off with this comment??? :headscratch:
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: haggerty on August 30, 2017, 03:19:56 AM
So let me get this straight: You are saying that no one cares about scores, but then you think that they will more inclined to stop using manned guns if it were to count as a death when destroyed?
Am I the only one finding something a bit off with this comment??? :headscratch:
Yes, they dont care about their score, they care about their k/d
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Volron on August 30, 2017, 03:38:32 AM
Then how would you categorize the death as? Fighter? Bomber? Vehicle?
I believe there is already a manned gun category if you look at your score in game, it could be added there without any impact on your rankings for the other categories. I still hope for a support category for supplying and base captures, it could possibly be tied into that, including allowing dedicated manned gunners to collect a score there.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Randy1 on August 30, 2017, 06:15:23 AM
I would think those skilled in man guns would just tower when they see a plane dive like those that tower GVs before the bomb hits.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: haggerty on August 30, 2017, 06:27:12 AM
Someone who always used hyperbole and thought of it as persuasive language might think that hyperbole required more exaggeration. They would be wrong. Totally ;)
Hope this helps. :cheers:
:headscratch:
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: bustr on August 30, 2017, 01:05:48 PM
You guys should be more charitable to paying customers who want to use manned guns. I have an updated version of my gunnery practice terrain with BBs on it I haven't uploaded to the HOST yet for players to get and use offline. It has a large naval gunnery practice part. Most of the time you don't get hit by the 88 in a fighter and most players can't hit anything with a 37mm out side of 1000. Why, there has never been any real way to practice against fighters under realistic conditions. I've noticed fighter pilots in the game loose their cookies over ack, manned or auto, like they are being cheated by the game even if it happens only once a tour or once a year. Fly too close to ack, eventually the odds will get you shot.
It's setup to let you practice some of the following:
1. - 88mm out to 7k against drones, out to 4miles against static tanks. 2. - 17lb out to 4miles against static tanks. 3. - 37mm setup to practice against drones 800-4000yds. 4. - 88mm setup to practice against drones 800-4000yds. 5. - Wirble\osti\M16 against drones 800yds and out.
(https://s20.postimg.org/60bkmjlsd/sight06.jpg)
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: gflyer on August 30, 2017, 06:41:31 PM
There are 8.1K ship/field gun kills already this tour. Doesn't seem to be too challenging.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Nosara on August 30, 2017, 07:48:15 PM
The 88 is a fun challenge. Always a hoot when a fighter vapourizes. :aok
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: icepac on August 30, 2017, 08:44:38 PM
You guys should be more charitable to paying customers who want to use manned guns. I have an updated version of my gunnery practice terrain with BBs on it I haven't uploaded to the HOST yet for players to get and use offline. It has a large naval gunnery practice part. Most of the time you don't get hit by the 88 in a fighter and most players can't hit anything with a 37mm out side of 1000. Why, there has never been any real way to practice against fighters under realistic conditions. I've noticed fighter pilots in the game loose their cookies over ack, manned or auto, like they are being cheated by the game even if it happens only once a tour or once a year. Fly too close to ack, eventually the odds will get you shot.
It's setup to let you practice some of the following:
1. - 88mm out to 7k against drones, out to 4miles against static tanks. 2. - 17lb out to 4miles against static tanks. 3. - 37mm setup to practice against drones 800-4000yds. 4. - 88mm setup to practice against drones 800-4000yds. 5. - Wirble\osti\M16 against drones 800yds and out.
(https://s20.postimg.org/60bkmjlsd/sight06.jpg)
I dont think we arent being charitable by asking it to count as a death and possibly.. and possibly some reward for the attacker killing them while manned... above the "points" we currently get.
For me its not about me or them dieing.. it just obviously is the first choice of players for a base defense. I guess to me its about making gameplay more appealing to folks.. sort of like the m3 supply situation.
You get rewarded to hide in the cracks and avoid player to player contact. Therefore making the gameboard look dead.. and people logging out to find action elsewhere.
Im not trying to take these options away from people.. im trying to limit their effectiveness, and get some people back in tanks and planes fighting. You know.. the things you see on a map.. directing you where to go for action... action that creates subscribers.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Randy1 on August 31, 2017, 12:37:22 PM
What we need in a way is a safe zone to allow for maneuvering speed to be achieved. Ack is the most sensible way to do that.
"Still the worst words in the game, "The vulch light is lite."
So many want more air to air. Vulching is the worst way to boost air-air.
The OP is a super player. He optimizes air to air combat by seeking out hard fights best I can tell. Because I know he is sincere in his post I have an idea that might work.
Lets say if a manned gun gets hit the player gets a kill as the OP requested. To make this work, we need a bit more deadly manned guns and the down times for the gun is say five-ten minutes fixed. Maybe some duel and quad 37mm and quad 50s for close field protection. Make the 88s unmanned or maybe half of each. The idea is to reduce the size of the protection dome around a field but increase its voracity to planes.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: bustr on August 31, 2017, 01:14:45 PM
Average players NOT like Lazerr and YUCCA have a game session play cycle I've observed for a decade now. Call it mental fatigue and it's stages. Players start out in planes or tanks raring to go at it. To various degrees based on their current skill abilities and expectations cultivated from those. On the very best nights they get lucky to be in a group initiative that's moving and doing things helping them win by their standards. Other nights, they have a tolerance for getting thowered too many times and things go down hill from there. The average player is not self motivated and needs external input to help keep an up feeling about playing. Without it, mental fatigue sets in starting an enthusiasm downward spiral.
In the end they often spend their last bit of time during their session in a field gun or in a gun on a task group plinking at red guys. It requires very little effort and the reward from it is immense to their ego. I've sat in a gun and listened to them chat away about it while popping some well known name and congratulations go all around. I remember some colorful ch200 responses by the kinds of players who start these posts to get rid of or castrate manned ack. Manned ack is a tiny community getting it's $14.95 worth while getting even for a bad night in the arena. And then they log out but, they keep coming back.
If you start from yourself as the premise of what's good and right for AH game play, you will drive the average customer away. There are more of them than Lazerr and YUCCA personality types, and they need these things to have at least that for an occasional reward. You should listen to players crow when they pop you and YUCCA and a small list of your high end ACM brethren. It's like they just shot down some ace of aces or talented greifer in the game everyone just loves to get even with.
Most of the action in this game happens at bases, so all of the toys to shoot someone are combined at those locations. And everyone knows they are. This wish can't accomplish making people stop popping you with a manned gun without punishing them in some public manner. That is not what the majority is paying Hitech to happen to them for taking pot shots with manned guns. And removing them completely, or piling social justice restrictions on them, he will loose customers because he will be removing their last possible ability to get even with the game monsters who can kill them in seconds.
Most players do not strive to become game monsters in the games they play. I've observed the game monsters take umbrage at anything that gives the normals an equalizer to their monsterness no matter how infrequent they get nailed by it. You always give the normals something so they don't spend all their time as food for the monsters who don't care about the problems of being a normal. Or keeping the normals paying the server bills by throwing them an equalizer.
And like Waystin tells all the green guys whining about ack getting in the way of their fun. Kill all the ack and stop whining. Then he kills all the ack.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: hitech on August 31, 2017, 01:38:36 PM
Seem no one things about what happens when you kill the guns when no one there. Why would a gun manned by AI score differently then a gun manned by a player? Or an unmanned gun.
HiTech
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: gflyer on August 31, 2017, 01:41:41 PM
I think that the average player would get some satisfaction from earning a kill on someone that is a rockstar in manned guns. Probably just as rewarding and satisfying for the guy risking his plane in the ack, and his trip back to the fight will be longer than the guy that jumps to the next gun or wirb.
Not sure I understand the reason manned guns are treated different than other manned objects?
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Lazerr on August 31, 2017, 01:49:01 PM
Seem no one things about what happens when you kill the guns when no one there. Why would a gun manned by AI score differently then a gun manned by a player? Or an unmanned gun.
HiTech
Maybe have three different destoyed messages worth different points? And tie gunner stats into Ground stats.
You have desroted an AI gun You have destoyed a gun battery You have desroyed a gun battery (manned)
Just throwing ideas out. By biggest gripe is a bravely risk my cartoon life to capture a base... and the guys in guns dont risk anything.
At least the guys running supplies risk something.. while i still believe that should be nerfed to encourage defense that invovles some type of combat.. be it gv.. plane from base... or a base back.
Even more so when supply trucks make it back to the game.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Lazerr on August 31, 2017, 01:55:45 PM
I see your point buster.. we arent taking away the gunners ability to shoot us down.. but more so to have some accountability for when i pop them with a rocket from 10k. :D
Heck add more guns if you want.. they arent the issue. The way they function is what bothers folks the most I think.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: popeye on August 31, 2017, 02:26:21 PM
Not sure I understand the reason manned guns are treated different than other manned objects?
They are different in that they are in a fixed position shown on a map, they are out of action for 15 minutes when killed, and their respawn can be timed to the second.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: gflyer on August 31, 2017, 02:39:44 PM
Not sure why that makes how they are treated in the killed by/killed of aspect different?
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Vraciu on August 31, 2017, 03:10:43 PM
Just throwing ideas out. My biggest gripe is I bravely risk my cartoon life to capture a base... and the guys in guns dont risk anything.
In a nutshell.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: popeye on August 31, 2017, 03:13:04 PM
Not saying that they should be scored differently, just that they are different from other manned assets in the game.
My experience is that it is much easier to kill a manned ack than to kill with it. On the other hand, there is less "investment" in jumping into a manned ack than there is in flying or driving to attack it. So, I'd favor not awarding a kill to either the player manning the ack or the player attacking it.
But, I'm okay with the way it is. Doesn't really matter to me. :D
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Vraciu on August 31, 2017, 03:13:47 PM
Seem no one things about what happens when you kill the guns when no one there. Why would a gun manned by AI score differently then a gun manned by a player? Or an unmanned gun.
HiTech
Well, for one, manned AA is potentially far more lethal than auto depending on the player.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: hitech on August 31, 2017, 03:33:53 PM
Well, for one, manned AA is potentially far more lethal than auto.
+1
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: gflyer on August 31, 2017, 03:46:46 PM
As more direct answer to hitech, it is not about the score. If you take scoring out and just focus on the human aspect of it. Manned guns are currently a one sided affair, a low risk, low investment one at that.
Make it even, either by awarding kills to all or none.
Your game do what ya want, I'll still play. I see the value for having manned guns, my dad, Would love to have something he could watch tv and wait for the HITECH call to arms and jump instantly in the fight kill a few people and resume tv watching. His satellite internet is a nonstarter tho.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: hitech on August 31, 2017, 03:55:03 PM
Make it even, either by awarding kills to all or none.
As I said , no kills are scored in field guns.
Maybe your name in lights if you kill someone in a field gun?
HiTech
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: gflyer on August 31, 2017, 04:01:12 PM
When a guy shoots me down in his ack, his name as my last killer shows up? Are there not kills in the score listing for field guns? Or is that all just in my head? There is a whole list of names with kills awarded on the stats page in ship gunner..No kills awarded? Ahh you still think this is about score.
Fair: Human A can kill Human B. Human B can kill Human A.
Not so much: Human A can kill Human B. Human B cant kill Human A.
8.4K gun kills of Humans this tour and counting.. Not one killed in the effort.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: hitech on August 31, 2017, 04:13:13 PM
It is not score, only put in your list.
HiTech
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: gflyer on August 31, 2017, 04:16:07 PM
Updated my last post too slow.. That killing humans things is what makes this game what it is.. If I can get killed by one, I should be able to kill in return.. its a human thing.. The one that makes this game rock.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: haggerty on August 31, 2017, 04:24:25 PM
Score in this game is extremely broken, people care about not dieing. Someone who ups in a manned gun has zero chance of dieing but a very high chance of adding to their kill count. If people get a death for dieing in a manned gun I guarantee we'd see alot more people upping in actual vehicles and planes to defend their bases.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: caldera on August 31, 2017, 04:30:01 PM
The problem is that it is easier to kill an ack gun than a goon. Making guns count as kills would only encourage vulching even more. No way should an ack count the same as a plane or vehicle.
Eliminate the kills landed message for kills in field guns. Maybe that would encourage some that they have to work a bit for the glory.
Or just stop loitering in the ack, looking for seals to club.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: hitech on August 31, 2017, 04:31:01 PM
Someone who ups in a manned gun has zero chance of dieing but a very high chance of adding to their kill count. If people get a death for dieing in a manned gun I guarantee we'd see alot more people upping in actual vehicles and planes to defend their bases.
Field guns do not have a kill count. Guns do not have a death count. Guns do not have hit %. GUNS ARE NOT SCORED IN ANY WAY. If you only gun you will show zero sorties in all categories. And be ranked last in all categories.
HiTech
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: gflyer on August 31, 2017, 04:36:16 PM
Then my wish would be that when I get killed by a gun, manned or unmanned, it is the same message and I have no idea if it was AI or a person and that my last killer remains unchanged. I don't care if they keep the landed kill messages.
As for the flying in the ack thing.. Puhlease.. Taking bases is an important aspect of this game, suppressing bases included. I have zero problem with guns, manned or unmanned.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: haggerty on August 31, 2017, 04:40:54 PM
Field guns do not have a kill count. Guns do not have a death count. Guns do not have hit %. GUNS ARE NOT SCORED IN ANY WAY. If you only gun you will show zero sorties in all categories. And be ranked last in all categories.
HiTech
Just looking at one player, he has 97 kills in "Ship Gunner" and 0 deaths. So someone is counting them.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: gflyer on August 31, 2017, 04:51:08 PM
Had to go in the game, looks like all of those things are recorded for field gunners.. except the died in part.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Lusche on August 31, 2017, 04:53:04 PM
When a guy shoots me down in his ack, his name as my last killer shows up? Are there not kills in the score listing for field guns? Or is that all just in my head? There is a whole list of names with kills awarded on the stats page in ship gunner..No kills awarded? Ahh you still think this is about score.
Fair: Human A can kill Human B. Human B can kill Human A.
Not so much: Human A can kill Human B. Human B cant kill Human A.
8.4K gun kills of Humans this tour and counting.. Not one killed in the effort.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Vraciu on August 31, 2017, 05:08:47 PM
I can just about deack an entire base when it is auto ack only. Let some sniper like Popeye or Kingpin man a gun and I have a wing coming off or a PK pretty fast.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Vraciu on August 31, 2017, 05:10:56 PM
As more direct answer to hitech, it is not about the score. If you take scoring out and just focus on the human aspect of it. Manned guns are currently a one sided affair, a low risk, low investment one at that.
Score in this game is extremely broken, people care about not dieing. Someone who ups in a manned gun has zero chance of dieing but a very high chance of adding to their kill count. If people get a death for dieing in a manned gun I guarantee we'd see alot more people upping in actual vehicles and planes to defend their bases.
Or a high chance of harming someone's score without risk. The risk/reward should have some balance to it. That's what most everyone here is saying.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: hitech on August 31, 2017, 05:13:09 PM
What was I thinking, this is exactly why I normally do not comment in wish list topics.
I'm out.
And it's not changing.
HiTech
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Vraciu on August 31, 2017, 05:14:30 PM
What was I thinking, this is exactly why I normally do not comment in wish list topics.
I'm out.
And it's not changing.
HiTech
Your comments are (for the most part) enlightening, appreciated, and welcome. Sorry you are frustrated by some of us (me). :salute
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: gflyer on August 31, 2017, 05:19:40 PM
Thanks for taking the time Hitech... It appears this message is not an easy one to convey clearly. It was, on the other hand, very enlightening on this side of the BB.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: haggerty on August 31, 2017, 05:27:55 PM
Might have reached a little too far asking for kills. They arent the same as planes or vehicles. The person that gets shot in them should atleast die though. Not too sure why this forum exists, even the most common sense requests are shot down and attacked because people are afraid of any change.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: gflyer on August 31, 2017, 05:45:19 PM
I can assure you I will never get past zinc from here on out :).
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Lazerr on August 31, 2017, 06:04:21 PM
Might have reached a little too far asking for kills. They arent the same as planes or vehicles. The person that gets shot in them should atleast die though. Not too sure why this forum exists, even the most common sense requests are shot down and attacked because people are afraid of any change.
All you can do is ask. Expect a no, hope for a yes, that way you are never disappointed but sometimes happily surprised. :salute :cheers: :bolt:
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: LilMak on August 31, 2017, 07:00:52 PM
88s on the fields need to go away. Not for score. Not for kills. But because it's a grief weapon. All reward and zero risk. It's a long range weapon taking a potential player and removing them from anything resembling a fight.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: ACE on August 31, 2017, 07:12:12 PM
Not too sure why this forum exists, even the most common sense requests are shot down and attacked because people are afraid of any change.
Not so. Just page through the forum some, and you'll see many requests that people agree with. It's the hot-button requests that get this kind of attention...and this has been a hot-button request for years.
- oldman
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: FLS on September 01, 2017, 01:27:14 AM
No it's hyperbole. Like the 100% quoted above. As if simple statements have a percentage of accuracy. Hyperbole is ubiquitous. When it's a regular habit you may lose awareness of it. I realize it's just your style but Hitech seems to want you to be more precise in your language when critiquing the game. If you praise it he'll likely be less stringent. :D
88s on the fields need to go away. Not for score. Not for kills. But because it's a grief weapon. All reward and zero risk. It's a long range weapon taking a potential player and removing them from anything resembling a fight.
:rofl Grief weapon. That's a good one. There is no reward for being in a manned gun other than seeing your name in lights if you shoot down a few planes. The rewards belong to the player that takes out a manned gun as they get scored for the kill while the player in the manned gun does not. Now, knowing that, how can you say the player in the manned gun gets all the rewards when he basically gets zilch for killing a player in a plane or a GV?
Being hit by acks, whether it be an auto or manned gun is the risk one takes when attacking an enemy base. During the war, these type of attacks on bases were the most dangerous a pilot could face due to the anti-air defenses. Why should it be any different in game? Why should we make it easier for the attackers while tying an arm behind the defenders?
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: LilMak on September 01, 2017, 07:50:19 AM
Ack-Ack. If you want to fly all day in flack guns, be my guest. Decent fights are hard enough to come by without the threat of a magic BB taking me out of it. Flak bursts are not combat and the longer a player can sit in an 88, the less likely they are to actually fight. I can fly around all day offline without having to pay to die from black puffs. I'm tired of tools being added that encourage players to avoid combat.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: YUCCA on September 01, 2017, 08:35:58 AM
I created a monster lol. It's not really about scoring to me. I get my satisfaction out of killing people trying to kill me. I think a fair amount of people are the same way. If they can get "you shot down yucca" I would like to be able to do the same. I like the GOTCHA! moments I guess lol. Bustr made an excellent point. I think manned ack have their place, removing them from gameplay is not what I started this for. As far as the social justice aspect of it. Let me pose this question. If this is an issue why do we show the name of what player we killed or vice versa in every other aspect of the game? I would imagine no one would like that to change.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Vraciu on September 01, 2017, 08:58:01 AM
No it's hyperbole. Like the 100% quoted above. As if simple statements have a percentage of accuracy. Hyperbole is ubiquitous. When it's a regular habit you may lose awareness of it. I realize it's just your style but Hitech seems to want you to be more precise in your language when critiquing the game. If you praise it he'll likely be less stringent. :D
See the comment about hyperbole. Nobody here is afraid of change. It's a ludicrous argument. We've had monthly if not weekly changes for 17 years.
I've had a few wishes granted that improved the game. So have many other players.
Wishes to limit what other players can do are seldom implemented.
No, it's accurate. Calling my statement "100% accurate" is *redundant* (and admittedly sloppy) because it's either accurate or inaccurate, but hyperbole it is not. Manned gunners like Kingpin are a bigger threat than auto ack and they prove it regularly.
I've been a writer for three decades. I know what I'm saying and it's correct. Others have agreed with me and they're not being called out. (Generally speaking--directed at nobody in particular--when people can write at high level, including grammar, punctuation, and spelling, I'm much more likely to accept their critiques on the subject.) I think hyperbole doesn't mean what you think it means. Also, the blanket employment of hyperbole as a perjorative is not an appropriate usage of the word.
------ Hyperbole may also be used for instances of such exaggerations for emphasis or effect. Hyperboles are often used in casual speech as intensifiers, such as saying "the bag weighed a ton". Hyperbole makes the point that the speaker found the bag to be extremely heavy, although it was nothing like a literal ton. Understanding hyperboles and their use in context can further one's ability to understand the messages being sent from the speaker. The use of hyperboles generally relays feelings or emotions from the speaker, or from those who the speaker may talk about. Hyperbole can be used in a form of humour, excitement, distress, and many other emotions, all depending on the context in which the speaker uses it. ---------
The boss has weighed in. It's not changing so may as well lock the thread and move on.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Lazerr on September 01, 2017, 09:00:54 AM
No it's hyperbole. Like the 100% quoted above. As if simple statements have a percentage of accuracy. Hyperbole is ubiquitous. When it's a regular habit you may lose awareness of it. I realize it's just your style but Hitech seems to want you to be more precise in your language when critiquing the game. If you praise it he'll likely be less stringent. :D
See the comment about hyperbole. Nobody here is afraid of change. It's a ludicrous argument. We've had monthly if not weekly changes for 17 years.
I've had a few wishes granted that improved the game. So have many other players.
Wishes to limit what other players can do are seldom implemented.
What part of this wish.is taking anything away from anyone?
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: DmonSlyr on September 01, 2017, 09:40:50 AM
88 guns on fields the worst addition to the game play that has ever been implemented. Does not do anything to support game play, just leads to more players logging off after wasting a 25 minute sortie dying to a puff of a smoke. If I'm 3-5K away from a base fighting someone, That's not vulching!!
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: DmonSlyr on September 01, 2017, 10:06:22 AM
Guaranteed that more players have left the game due to boring game play like 88 inchers ruining their hard earned sorties than the amount of people who would leave if you took the 88 out of the game. Anyone want to take bets?
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Vraciu on September 01, 2017, 10:21:01 AM
Guaranteed that more players have left the game due to boring game play like 88 inchers ruining their hard earned sorties than the amount of people who would leave if you took the 88 out of the game. Anyone want to take bets?
No, because I'd lose the bet! :old:
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: FLS on September 01, 2017, 10:26:36 AM
No, it's accurate. Calling my statement "100% accurate" is *redundant* (and admittedly sloppy) because it's either accurate or inaccurate, but hyperbole it is not. ... ------ Hyperbole may also be used for instances of such exaggerations for emphasis or effect. ...
The difference between "accurate" and "100% accurate" is hyperbole per your quoted definition. I'm cool with you having a different opinion. :cheers:
The difference between "accurate" and "100% accurate" is hyperbole per your quoted definition. I'm cool with you having a different opinion. :cheers:
That comment was specific to Haggerty's comment on wishes in general.
It's not hyperbole. It's sloppy, redundant writing. Like saying "really unique" -- it's either unique or it's not. This is called pleonasm not hyperbole.
Hyperbole is saying, "You're the dumbest person on the planet!" -- the point isn't that the person is literally that.
I'm out before I get mod'ed.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: LilMak on September 01, 2017, 11:47:48 AM
For me 88s are not about getting shot down. I could care less how many times I die. It's about removing a player who would otherwise be contributing to the game and isn't. If a player is sitting in an 88 trying to snipe people from 10k out, they're not likely to hit anything. They're doing nothing except making noise. Not contributing to any engagement. They might as well not be there.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Ack-Ack on September 01, 2017, 11:50:02 AM
Ack-Ack. If you want to fly all day in flack guns, be my guest. Decent fights are hard enough to come by without the threat of a magic BB taking me out of it. Flak bursts are not combat and the longer a player can sit in an 88, the less likely they are to actually fight. I can fly around all day offline without having to pay to die from black puffs. I'm tired of tools being added that encourage players to avoid combat.
A person defending a base in a manned gun isn't avoiding combat, they are engaged in combat if they are firing at attacking enemy planes. Ask Vilkas if he was avoiding combat by being a flak gunner during the war.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Ack-Ack on September 01, 2017, 11:53:10 AM
Guaranteed that more players have left the game due to boring game play like 88 inchers ruining their hard earned sorties than the amount of people who would leave if you took the 88 out of the game. Anyone want to take bets?
I'll take that bet. How about the loser pays the winner a year of AH? If you agree, I expect to see the data that supports your verified (by HiTech) claims by the end of next week.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Ack-Ack on September 01, 2017, 11:55:17 AM
For me 88s are not about getting shot down. I could care less how many times I die. It's about removing a player who would otherwise be contributing to the game and isn't. If a player is sitting in an 88 trying to snipe people from 10k out, they're not likely to hit anything. They're doing nothing except making noise. Not contributing to any engagement. They might as well not be there.
The player is contributing to the game, they are defending their base. All this wish from the OP amounts to is what HiTech posted earlier. They want to make base attacks easier for them with little risk. Now that to me sounds like a player that is really wanting to avoid combat and not the player in the manned gun defending the base.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: waystin2 on September 01, 2017, 12:01:44 PM
I have killed hundreds of ack guns. Simple to do! No one sniping at you and the red guys have no where to hide. :aok
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Volron on September 01, 2017, 12:07:03 PM
Guaranteed that more players have left the game due to boring game play like 88 inchers ruining their hard earned sorties than the amount of people who would leave if you took the 88 out of the game. Anyone want to take bets?
I'll take that bet. How about the loser pays the winner a year of AH? If you agree, I expect to see the data that supports your verified (by HiTech) claims by the end of next week.
:D
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Lazerr on September 01, 2017, 12:08:52 PM
The player is contributing to the game, they are defending their base. All this wish from the OP amounts to is what HiTech posted earlier. They want to make base attacks easier for them with little risk. Now that to me sounds like a player that is really wanting to avoid combat and not the player in the manned gun defending the base.
Little risk as an attacker? How so? The guns can still fire, most of us are requesting a penalty for a downed occupied manned gun. Maybe we should take away kills on bomber drones too. M3s with supplies maybe should no longer count as a kill.. just points for score?
The guys asking for these guns to be removed are being a little extreme... but every sortie in anything modeled in this game should count as a death when killed in it. Its just flat out unfair if it isnt.
Vulching a base has nothing to do with this.. the scoring of a downed occupied manned gun is the discussion.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Lazerr on September 01, 2017, 12:10:16 PM
Little risk as an attacker? How so? The guns can still fire, most of us are requesting a penalty for a downed occupied manned gun. Maybe we should take away kills on bomber drones too. M3s with supplies maybe should no longer count as a kill.. just points for score?
The guys asking for these guns to be removed are being a little extreme... but every sortie in anything modeled in this game should count as a death when killed in it. Its just flat out unfair if it isnt. Especially if they are capable of scoring while in that object.
Vulching a base has nothing to do with this.. the scoring of a downed occupied manned gun is the discussion.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Lazerr on September 01, 2017, 12:12:19 PM
I think everyone understands the guns are destructable.. this discussion is about the scoring characteristics of the manned ack.
Anyone saying these guns should be removed is over the edge.
There is no scoring for the person in the manned ack, they don't get scored nor do they receive perks. However, the player in the plane or GV that destroys the manned ack is rewarded for the kill.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Lazerr on September 01, 2017, 12:17:00 PM
There is no scoring for the person in the manned ack, they don't get scored nor do they receive perks. However, the player in the plane or GV that destroys the manned ack is rewarded for the kill.
I guess if a player in a manned gun has an opportunity to get a kill on me.. i would like to be able to get one on them. And im not saying a gun destroyed message. :D
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Lazerr on September 01, 2017, 12:19:03 PM
Hitech's idea of a kill message when a player occupied gun is killed is neat. I assume it would work like the old days where it said who killed who in what at the time of the kill.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: DmonSlyr on September 01, 2017, 12:40:40 PM
I'll take that bet. How about the loser pays the winner a year of AH? If you agree, I expect to see the data that supports your verified (by HiTech) claims by the end of next week.
I prolly couldn't afford a year, but maybe at least 3 months.
Let's post the #s a few months before the 88 was implemented and then post the #s a few months after the 88 was implemented. In either case, I'm sure the average of the #s were going down. It would probably be too difficult to point it right at 88mms. But I could guarantee that the 88 had no effect on increasing #s, nor would anyone quit because they couldn't use it anymore. In any effect, it does not increase the #s and is mostly a griefing tool for lazy game play.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: FLS on September 01, 2017, 12:51:38 PM
It's not hyperbole. It's sloppy, redundant writing. Like saying "really unique" -- it's either unique or it's not. This is called pleonasm not hyperbole.
Hyperbole is saying, "You're the dumbest person on the planet!" -- the point isn't that the person is literally that.
I'm out before I get mod'ed.
If it was pleonasm then "100%" and "accurate" would be interchangeable terms. Compare "really unique" with "uniquely one of a kind". "Really" is an intensifier but I don't see how it is a pleonasm which is more like tautology.
I think we disagree on the definition of exaggerate. :D
We can stop now. :salute
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Randy1 on September 01, 2017, 12:55:38 PM
For me 88s are not about getting shot down. I could care less how many times I die. It's about removing a player who would otherwise be contributing to the game and isn't. If a player is sitting in an 88 trying to snipe people from 10k out, they're not likely to hit anything. They're doing nothing except making noise. Not contributing to any engagement. They might as well not be there.
My opinion on the 88 is it has only one function and that is to push a red cap back so fighters can get off the deck. If fighters are shot on and or just after take off I can not see how that helps to promote good air to air combat. I know LilMak like Yucca rarely vulches unless it is to protect a field capture but there are players who play the vulch every chance they get.
Some other thoughts. Last night I was over a red field by myself. After deacking the town and climbing out, two reds took off in a spit 14, and a P-47M. I waited until they climbed out then attacked. I had all the combat I wanted. To do that though I had to give up my advantage, and I need every advantage I can get.
I might add as well players coming into a red zone at 15 to 20K hurts air to air combat more that the 88 I dare guess. Why not come in at 3K.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: waystin2 on September 01, 2017, 01:08:17 PM
I think everyone understands the guns are destructable.. this discussion is about the scoring characteristics of the manned ack.
Anyone saying these guns should be removed is over the edge.
I concur. They should not be removed. They do offer some buffer against attack although they can be overcome. Kill message against a manned gun? hmmmmmm.....is it really that important? :headscratch:
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Vraciu on September 01, 2017, 01:19:09 PM
If it was pleonasm then "100%" and "accurate" would be interchangeable terms. Compare "really unique" with "uniquely one of a kind". "Really" is an intensifier but I don't see how it is a pleonasm which is more like tautology.
I think we disagree on the definition of exaggerate. :D
We can stop now. :salute
No, because the terms aren't required to be interchangeable, merely unnecessary.
ple·o·nasm ˈplēəˌnazəm/Submit noun the use of more words than are necessary to convey meaning (e.g., see with one's eyes ), either as a fault of style or for emphasis.
"100% accurate" is a pleonasm. "Really unique" is another. Neither is hyperbole.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Lazerr on September 01, 2017, 01:29:36 PM
I concur. They should not be removed. They do offer some buffer against attack although they can be overcome. Kill message against a manned gun? hmmmmmm.....is it really that important? :headscratch:
Right now its a free turkey shoot for them with no risk of manning it. I feel if there was some sort of death involved for them it might encourage groups to roll from the base in a large group.. or even a base back. Wirbs.. tanks..
See where im going with it?
some folks are going to sit in a manned gun at the first sight of a dar icon.. rather than try and up.. even if i am 25 miles away still. Well.. lots of them do. It hasnt even become a vulch yet.
The current system with m3 supps and manned gun scoring just begs for avoidance of fighting.
Get on the ball with defense or lose the base i tell em! :D
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Lazerr on September 01, 2017, 01:32:07 PM
I dont want to take gameplay options away from folks either.. i just am lobbying for making it well rounded.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: waystin2 on September 01, 2017, 01:55:53 PM
Right now its a free turkey shoot for them with no risk of manning it. I feel if there was some sort of death involved for them it might encourage groups to roll from the base in a large group.. or even a base back. Wirbs.. tanks..
See where im going with it?
some folks are going to sit in a manned gun at the first sight of a dar icon.. rather than try and up.. even if i am 25 miles away still. Well.. lots of them do. It hasnt even become a vulch yet.
The current system with m3 supps and manned gun scoring just begs for avoidance of fighting.
Get on the ball with defense or lose the base i tell em! :D
I get what your saying. My last choice to scrap against other players is a manned gun but I can't see forcing that choice to others. Gonna be a tough sell.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: LilMak on September 01, 2017, 03:47:54 PM
A person defending a base in a manned gun isn't avoiding combat, they are engaged in combat if they are firing at attacking enemy planes. Ask Vilkas if he was avoiding combat by being a flak gunner during the war.
It would be different if they were actually doing that. But they're not. I'm usually engaged in combat and some griefer is taking pot shots at me while I am. When I'm not engaged in combat, I'm simply waiting for someone to engage. I have zero interest in playing chicken with some guy in a fixed gun who's only goal in life is to ruin my fun.
And the MA isn't war. It's a game. If you want war, scenarios and FSO are where you should be.
It's pretty simple. If everyone sat in field guns there would be nothing to defend against. As you play ask yourself, "If everyone did this all the time, would the game be any fun?" If your answer is consistently "No" then you should probably change your ways or there will be no game. I have no issues against the 37s because I can fight away from the base without being harassed. I'm here for air combat against other players. An 88 is not air combat in my opinion and detrimental to play. Leave the ground game on the ground.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: wil3ur on September 01, 2017, 03:51:11 PM
I would be in favor of massively upping the effectiveness of ground guns and doing away with manned guns (Except for ship 8" or larger).
I have to say, it sucks horribly when you're not vulching and get taken out at 5K+ by an 88... so normally I'll sacrifice a cartoon life when starting an engagement by diving 88's if I see puffy in the air. They are my #1 target. The rest of the manned guns are pretty much worthless unless you're actively vulching a run way.
Deth to 88s.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: hitech on September 01, 2017, 04:44:09 PM
The solution. (http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/WWII-Weapons-The-German-88mm-Gun2.jpg) HiTech
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: wil3ur on September 01, 2017, 05:07:51 PM
The solution. (http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/WWII-Weapons-The-German-88mm-Gun2.jpg) HiTech
If you remove those from airfields and reintroduce as a mobile weapon. Would you consider replacing them with 17lb? Those small airfields I'm building with only a maproom next to the tower, and the river with 3 bridges in front of the GV spawns. They would be useful until the de-acking started. Since you never put a direct fire reticle in the 88, they have been problematic for defending against GVs.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: Lazerr on September 01, 2017, 06:03:43 PM
The solution. (http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/WWII-Weapons-The-German-88mm-Gun2.jpg) HiTech
Then you'll get them crying about a guy taking a towed 88 out onto a field and taking pop shots at them. AND they'll cry even harder then than they do now since it only takes a little box of sups will fully replenish said towed gun, vs the fact that someone will have to tower out of a manned gun in order to get it resupplied.
I like it. :D
:aok
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: puller on September 01, 2017, 07:38:26 PM
I prolly couldn't afford a year, but maybe at least 3 months.
Let's post the #s a few months before the 88 was implemented and then post the #s a few months after the 88 was implemented. In either case, I'm sure the average of the #s were going down. It would probably be too difficult to point it right at 88mms. But I could guarantee that the 88 had no effect on increasing #s, nor would anyone quit because they couldn't use it anymore. In any effect, it does not increase the #s and is mostly a griefing tool for lazy game play.
That's not going to provide the data you're looking for because you can't tell what kind of manned gun they were in. You also can't tell from that data why the player left the game, so there is no way for you to determine that the drop in numbers during those periods were a direct result of manned 8mm guns. The only one that can definitively state the cause of people leaving the game during that period is HiTech. I'm willing to venture that the manned 88mm gun is probably the least reason why someone has left the game, I'm willing to go further that it's probably less than 1%.
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: asterix on September 02, 2017, 03:49:27 AM
So, how many threads do you think there will be about it after a day or two? Because it's looking like HiTech is going to open that can of worms. :P
If they do make them mobile and throw in the correct gun sights as well as increase the turret rotation speed to the higher gearing. :headscratch: The whining will be immense. :aok
Title: Re: Manned ack should count as a kill?
Post by: bustr on September 02, 2017, 05:52:03 PM
I can already hear the whining after they spawn that in and whack people trying to take off for a near by furball. Something like, now we have to actually defend our sheep. If Hitech really does this, it's going to be nastier than just leaving the 88's where they are. Can you imagine a squad spawning in with wirbles, ostis, panthers, and 5 or 6 of these?
Spawns are three miles out from the maproom at the tower.