Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: nrshida on September 20, 2017, 01:34:26 AM
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Not even going to put this on the Wishlist, the idea's too immature and taking time to ideate only to have super-conservative stiffs say -1 just cos they don't need it themselves / or don't get it gets a bit old :rofl But anyway, an idea, perhaps worthy of discussion. Perhaps someone in a position to consider it from a business model perspective might think about it anyway!
In this thread about a week ago:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,389299.0.html
I proposed current MA players give the Match Play Arena (MPA) a try. Later in this thread TC reported he was unsuccessful encouraging some MA players to go to MPA with him. As far as my observations take me it seems most of the 'duellers' of old are presently not playing - even the Army of Muppets squad seems presently inactive (wasn't even on the squad roster a week back).
I’ve noticed a few possible MA people show up, but very disappointingly the arena is largely unoccupied. I did this week run into one player who claimed to be from another flight simulator who came to AH to improve his 1-on-1 flying.
Then I read Lusche’s post. I think we can all agree an objective, rational and levelheaded member of out community (unlike me :banana:):-
It's like a bunch of old guys doing 'their stuff' with only greeting an old acquaintance every once in a while.
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I have the feeling today's arena is full of lone wolves (just look at all those squadless players on the roster), or some very tight small squads/groups of player.
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I have the feeling the game is getting old, literally. How do you hook new players in a lukewarm environment, even when they get their (technical) questions answered on the Help Channel?.
This comment especially: “I have the feeling the game is getting old” I found a bit disturbing.
I was considering how the game might be viewed from a new player. If, as Lusche suggests, and I think myself, the MA is a sort of comfort zone of random activities, simultaneously ticking by at a low pace and still requiring the high-angle learning curve of flying and the general complexity of the game then it’s hardly going to appeal. It’s hard and unrewarding, there’s just a gulf in the graphs into which new players fall.
I’ve very openly narrated my fondness for MPA and why I think any fan of air combat should at least be a part-time member. But my activity - pure toe-to-toe ACM fights are an esoteric hobby, nested inside an esoteric hobby. In other words, AH players are a minority and within that minority… I think this is why trying to recruit MPA players from the MA will not work. If that's their comfort zone they won't leave it.
Perhaps the underlying assumption is false though. What if new players could be attracted to the MPA first? So think about newer games. They are more inclined towards instant action. I would have conjectured also more quickly returned rewards but I'm now not sure. I can imagine many modern gamers are looking for a challenge. A really engaging challenge, bringing a not-so-immediate reward.
Couldn't we push the sporting aspects of Aces High as a way to appeal to the younger generation and enjoy the natural trickling down from there into the MA? I did think of a Reno Air race / Redbull racing league arena, but thought that might get stale quickly (so many racing games already). So I'm proposing that only in the MPA custom skins might be allowed, a public scoreboard right on the front page of AH’s website and further, to allow the slight modification of the aircraft in a combat-competition style. So sort of Reno air races but geared for fighting. So you could remove armour and guns and customise your fuel load out to 10% increments and choose your ammo load out before takeoff. HTC is already able to ‘turn-off’ guns when damaged, the hangar already allows selections and aircraft weight is calculated according to hangar selections. Skins are player-generated. Might not be so much work that it's worth a try. The customization aspect is to engage the individual to a higher level.
I think this might appeal more to the Counter Strike generation than a dimly glowing MA that seems like a war where nearly everyone is on vacation.
And then, promote this! Put videos out, write about it on Steam, try to attract those from other simulators which don't have an MPA.
Before the typical poo-pooers show up to explain how 'we've never needed this in the past', consider. What if Lusche is right? What is the end game to this path? At the end of the day AH is not a single player game. We all play this game together with other people. No people...
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Not saying it's a bad idea, but the two main things I see working against the MPA for new people are the learning curve and the fact that if you've got any kind of ego, dueling with people you can't beat will be unpleasant. Getting beaten down repeatedly in the MA is one thing, you can either get by in a crowd or you have an excuse when you die. A 1v1 loss is all on the loser and a lot of people can't handle that.
A lot of new guys (heck a lot of old guys) are barely in control of their plane, never mind advanced ACM.
Wiley.
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A lot of new guys (heck a lot of old guys) are barely in control of their plane, never mind advanced ACM.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/4bWWKmUnn5E4/giphy.gif)
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So think about newer games. They are more inclined towards instant action. I would have conjectured also more quickly returned rewards but I'm now not sure. I can imagine many modern gamers are looking for a challenge. A really engaging challenge, bringing a not-so-immediate reward.
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I think this might appeal more to the Counter Strike generation than a dimly glowing MA that seems like a war where nearly everyone is on vacation.
Instant action and Counter Strike seem to be more related to manned guns and ground vehicles rather than ACM part of AH3. So maybe get new guys in through ground war that is easier and more known environment. In reality I have no idea about what newer gamers want.
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These are good points - especially Arlo's :D
I presumed you must have some interest in air combat / prop planes to come to AH in the first place. I know I did.
I think we must differentiate slightly between instant action and instant reward. Some of the better players I ran across do / did have an ego. They must however have surpressed it at one point to learn and get to the point to gob-off about how great they are :rofl
Some just seem to embrace high-skill set-based rewards. I believe a contributing factor to some (especially one) of my friends leaving is reaching the top level and having nothing left to learn / accomplish. I just suspect there is demand for something whos rewards measure up to the challenge. There are always overswings in culture.
AH has some unique atributes!
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For me and Im sure for many others it just isnt the type of fights Im looking for. The dueling type fights are a whole different animal than Melee fights. In the MPA it is who ever makes the first mistake loses. There really isn't much in the way of a chance to recover. In the Melee Arena there are a number of other factors that come into play and even an average "pilot" like me can stand a chance.
To generate some action in there tho you might try posted over at Steam. You might find some takers to try out the "free" arenas and give you some action.
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MPA is not (does not have to be) one versus one. It was very ingeniously designed to be able to handle multiple member teams. (At least that is how I recalled it).
Hope that adds something to the conversation.
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/4bWWKmUnn5E4/giphy.gif)
Over Macho-Grande?
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Over Macho-Grande?
I'll never get over Macho Grande.
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Just get out there and win one for the Zipper!
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For me and Im sure for many others it just isnt the type of fights Im looking for. The dueling type fights are a whole different animal than Melee fights.
That's okay, it's not compulsory :)
In the MPA it is who ever makes the first mistake loses. There really isn't much in the way of a chance to recover. In the Melee Arena there are a number of other factors that come into play and even an average "pilot" like me can stand a chance.
Not really so much first mistake loses in my experience. Recently I'm noticing how decisive the second merge is. Often things haven't gone to plan by that stage and you have to rally quite hard. Regarding the MA I totally understand. The secondary / primary (depends on your activities) motivation for posting this idea is the possibility to inject some players into the MA via this 'sporting' direction rather than the other way around.
To generate some action in there tho you might try posted over at Steam. You might find some takers to try out the "free" arenas and give you some action.
That's actually a bloody good idea my friend. If I could make an MPA promotion video might someone else help put up the Steam post? I only play AH you see...
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Truth is, despite what many seem to think, too many of the experienced players now just want to take rather than give and they essentially bully the new guys out without giving them a chance.
In the MA they will vulch and vulch and vulch, regardless of the name they are killing. They do not care about the game, rather their scores. Push that to the DA, we will see players that will beat down new guys just because they can.
nrshida - you offered a challenge so I feel I should too. Create an account and fly around like a noob in the MA. I mean a real noob, who will take the wrong plane up and try to turn fight the right plane. You know what I mean. With Hitech's permission I am willing to fund that account on the understanding you film all encounters. I think what we will find is lots of hard core veterans feeding and a very few offering help. That sir, is your issue.
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I for one always try to get into contact with the new players if I kill them. (I don't kill them on purpose) they usually feel insulted when I do, not my intention at all.
Back to MPA.
yesterday I was screwing around with my squad in there and we had great fun. however I don't always wanna go there with them because you can't select who your fighting or who your flying with. in the old DA this was not a problem. I actually used the DA as a training arena for my squad alot. Cause there are actually consequences for your mistakes.
One time I wanted to duel a friend and that got totally screwed up by a third player joining. we would be placed against him again and again. after 5-6 tries to fight each other we gave up and left.
Don't get me wrong I love the random aspect as well and i also would love to see a squad dueling league ladder in there. maybe you can create a team and gain some sort of elo/rating.
if I would be able to do some those things in there again you would see me there more often and pulling in my squaddies with me.
Those where my 2 cents on the matter.
DutchVII
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.... they usually feel insulted when I do, not my intention at all.
I applaud your efforts. But it may be some are insulted because they are not really "noobs".
The OP assumes the majority of new Aces High players are new to air combat, which may or may not be the case. Some may be old players returning and in the process of shaking off the rust. Others may be players from other sims who are already fairly well acquainted with air combat principles but are in the process of getting used AH. Speaking as someone who hops between sims quite a bit, I can say while ACM/BFM remains the same, every sim has specific timing and performance nuances that can impact their execution e.g. the optimal time to execute a barrel roll to force an overshoot.
Just a thought... :salute
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...snip
Back to MPA.
... i also would love to see a squad dueling league ladder in there. maybe you can create a team and gain some sort of elo/rating.
....snip
DutchVII
Perhaps the gist of this idea could become the basis of a Steam promotional/marketing event? HTC might in some way--implementation details notwithstanding--hold a Steam users ONLY dueling ladder/tourny in the MPA (I don't know how regular vets would be filtered out). The winner(s) could win a 1-to-X number of months of HTC-sponsored subscription to the full game or <insert other prize here>? At the very least it would expose the MPA to some more new users by tying in tangible benefits (win a sub) to try it out, and overall might garner additional interest in subbing to AH.
FWIW,
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(https://www.pinterest.com/pin/27654985184004032/)
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I for one always try to get into contact with the new players if I kill them.
I've got two modes now: power and economy (named after my old Mitsubishi lolz). If someone's really good then I fly my best. If I find them not so tough then I merge loose, do stupid things, turn up ACM experimentation to the max. Let them shoot me down a bit. Got to be some encouragement. This was Pervert's wisdom which really stuck with me.
I think what we will find is lots of hard core veterans feeding and a very few offering help. That sir, is your issue.
I am and have never been terribly impressed by most MA gameplay when it comes to ACM. I did years at the furbal lake and my biggest shock starting in the MA was the refusal to merge or the desperate HO and run approach. This made the derision poured on the furbal crowd doubly perplexing. At least they'd fight tooth and nail in there. I did actually fly a bit like you suggest for a long time just to get some action. Used to fly low and at half throttle at the start of the fights. Also spent a long time fighting outnumbered.
The OP assumes the majority of new Aces High players are new to air combat
Quite to the contrary. I expect a mixture. Here or somewhere abouts I mention I already encountered a pilot from another sim.
Interesting comments about other sims. Here's hoping I won't have to explore those. :rofl
As an addendum I'm considering what Fugative suggested and making a promotional vid to attract Steam players. Test if this concept has any milage in it. I fear it's a lot of work though. No idea how to get those tracking camera shots like Dolby used to make.
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Quite to the contrary. I expect a mixture. Here or somewhere abouts I mention I already encountered a pilot from another sim.
I must have missed that....sorry.
As an addendum I'm considering what Fugative suggested and making a promotional vid to attract Steam players. Test if this concept has any milage in it. I fear it's a lot of work though. No idea how to get those tracking camera shots like Dolby used to make.
Sounds like a pretty good idea. Can't hurt!
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I must have missed that....sorry.
Not a problem. :salute
How are the stall and post-stall characteristics in other flight sims? Had the idea AH's flight model was tip top, but I'm out of my province there.
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Rather than answer that directly, which tends to bring out unconstructive and/or emotionally driven comments, I would just say that every sim has it's pluses and minuses. I personally think the stall characteristics for AH are just fine...certainly better than some and maybe not as good as others.
Overall, I like AH and enjoy flying it, though I admit I don't do it as much as I used too because I like flying other sims as well. If I thought AH wasn't good and/or fun, I wouldn't fly it. I had a veteran IL2 player watching me on Twitch the other night ask lot of questions about AH. I was very honest with him on the pros and cons, told him I feel it's worth playing and that I honestly enjoy doing so. I believe he will give AH a try, so there's something. :salute
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Truth is, despite what many seem to think, too many of the experienced players now just want to take rather than give and they essentially bully the new guys out without giving them a chance.
In the MA they will vulch and vulch and vulch, regardless of the name they are killing. They do not care about the game, rather their scores. Push that to the DA, we will see players that will beat down new guys just because they can.
nrshida - you offered a challenge so I feel I should too. Create an account and fly around like a noob in the MA. I mean a real noob, who will take the wrong plane up and try to turn fight the right plane. You know what I mean. With Hitech's permission I am willing to fund that account on the understanding you film all encounters. I think what we will find is lots of hard core veterans feeding and a very few offering help. That sir, is your issue.
You are onto something there Fess! I have seen it with my own eyes and heard with my own ears. Even had a interested(too the point of being GIDDY about it) new player,trashed to the point he didnt see it as any amount of fun. His words "Its a game! I killed you and have no score, so I am the noob? I suck because you died? I can get this from my mom, for free!" :bhead I gave him my old/but NEW computer when I upgraded for Vr. He had nothing to play with, so I just gave him my system, Joysticks to TIR. He really enjoyed it for a time. It was a great way to get him away from his home situation,if just for a few hours of escape online. STILL pay his subscription. No dice, on his return. He would rather do homework instead :O Thats a good thing I guess? Still odd to me :headscratch: At least he asks me how the game is going, when we talk, so there IS still hope.
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I'm just going to throw this out there but when i first started playing in 2004 i only played in the DA for several months straight. Of course back then the DA was simple Killshooter was off and you had to check 6 someone and then they check 6 you back to start a fight. I lost almost every fight for a month straight but the instant action kept me coming back or i never would've went past my 2 weeks free.
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Not even going to put this on the Wishlist, the idea's too immature and taking time to ideate only to have super-conservative stiffs say -1 just cos they don't need it themselves / or don't get it gets a bit old :rofl But anyway, an idea, perhaps worthy of discussion. Perhaps someone in a position to consider it from a business model perspective might think about it anyway!
In this thread about a week ago:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,389299.0.html
I proposed current MA players give the Match Play Arena (MPA) a try. Later in this thread TC reported he was unsuccessful encouraging some MA players to go to MPA with him. As far as my observations take me it seems most of the 'duellers' of old are presently not playing - even the Army of Muppets squad seems presently inactive (wasn't even on the squad roster a week back).
I’ve noticed a few possible MA people show up, but very disappointingly the arena is largely unoccupied. I did this week run into one player who claimed to be from another flight simulator who came to AH to improve his 1-on-1 flying.
Then I read Lusche’s post. I think we can all agree an objective, rational and levelheaded member of out community (unlike me :banana:):-
This comment especially: “I have the feeling the game is getting old” I found a bit disturbing.
I was considering how the game might be viewed from a new player. If, as Lusche suggests, and I think myself, the MA is a sort of comfort zone of random activities, simultaneously ticking by at a low pace and still requiring the high-angle learning curve of flying and the general complexity of the game then it’s hardly going to appeal. It’s hard and unrewarding, there’s just a gulf in the graphs into which new players fall.
I’ve very openly narrated my fondness for MPA and why I think any fan of air combat should at least be a part-time member. But my activity - pure toe-to-toe ACM fights are an esoteric hobby, nested inside an esoteric hobby. In other words, AH players are a minority and within that minority… I think this is why trying to recruit MPA players from the MA will not work. If that's their comfort zone they won't leave it.
Perhaps the underlying assumption is false though. What if new players could be attracted to the MPA first? So think about newer games. They are more inclined towards instant action. I would have conjectured also more quickly returned rewards but I'm now not sure. I can imagine many modern gamers are looking for a challenge. A really engaging challenge, bringing a not-so-immediate reward.
Couldn't we push the sporting aspects of Aces High as a way to appeal to the younger generation and enjoy the natural trickling down from there into the MA? I did think of a Reno Air race / Redbull racing league arena, but thought that might get stale quickly (so many racing games already). So I'm proposing that only in the MPA custom skins might be allowed, a public scoreboard right on the front page of AH’s website and further, to allow the slight modification of the aircraft in a combat-competition style. So sort of Reno air races but geared for fighting. So you could remove armour and guns and customise your fuel load out to 10% increments and choose your ammo load out before takeoff. HTC is already able to ‘turn-off’ guns when damaged, the hangar already allows selections and aircraft weight is calculated according to hangar selections. Skins are player-generated. Might not be so much work that it's worth a try. The customization aspect is to engage the individual to a higher level.
I think this might appeal more to the Counter Strike generation than a dimly glowing MA that seems like a war where nearly everyone is on vacation.
And then, promote this! Put videos out, write about it on Steam, try to attract those from other simulators which don't have an MPA.
Before the typical poo-pooers show up to explain how 'we've never needed this in the past', consider. What if Lusche is right? What is the end game to this path? At the end of the day AH is not a single player game. We all play this game together with other people. No people...
FFA Fighter BOWL with airspawns
There is your answer. Quick fighter action. The new guys just want to fight and shoot. The match play still currently takes too much coordination.
Ohh and, no other game has a "fighter bowl" where you can just mix it up with anyone quickly. I'm telling you, it would be great for action and learning.
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I for one always try to get into contact with the new players if I kill them. (I don't kill them on purpose) they usually feel insulted when I do, not my intention at all.
Back to MPA.
yesterday I was screwing around with my squad in there and we had great fun. however I don't always wanna go there with them because you can't select who your fighting or who your flying with. in the old DA this was not a problem. I actually used the DA as a training arena for my squad alot. Cause there are actually consequences for your mistakes.
One time I wanted to duel a friend and that got totally screwed up by a third player joining. we would be placed against him again and again. after 5-6 tries to fight each other we gave up and left.
Don't get me wrong I love the random aspect as well and i also would love to see a squad dueling league ladder in there. maybe you can create a team and gain some sort of elo/rating.
if I would be able to do some those things in there again you would see me there more often and pulling in my squaddies with me.
Those where my 2 cents on the matter.
DutchVII
This is also a major problem with the Match Play that NEEDs prompt attention.
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I like to clarify my approaches to new players which also in 11 cases so far seemed to be successful. not all players veel insulted. however a fair amount do. before I even contact them I check there score and see how they are doing 1 kill 60 death for example. the follow up is usually like this:
a. I either ask a friend I have on the side he's flying to contact him and help him out
b. I contact himself and ask him if he wants to wing up with me and my squad. and in the process help him out white what he is struggling with.
thanks for the suggestions. I will do something with those.
but the point was more MP where improve to could be made.
DutchVII