General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Electroman on December 15, 2017, 03:48:35 PM
Title: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: Electroman on December 15, 2017, 03:48:35 PM
So with the neutering of HQ downtime (now 5 minutes) a while back it's become apparent that it is a waste of map space nowadays...
Someone mentioned that taking down the city though would affect the HQ downtime. I've yet to verify that but I suspect the answer is no. Has anyone experimented / can verify this?
Cheers, Elec1
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: Dundee on December 15, 2017, 09:33:02 PM
So with the neutering of HQ downtime (now 5 minutes) a while back it's become apparent that it is a waste of map space nowadays...
Someone mentioned that taking down the city though would affect the HQ downtime. I've yet to verify that but I suspect the answer is no. Has anyone experimented / can verify this?
Cheers, Elec1
It has in the past in AH III...49ers have taken it down..... not worth the effort especially with the tank Icons and dar.. too many players thought it was bad for the game to take it down. So yes it's a waste of code on the map
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: NatCigg on December 16, 2017, 07:25:51 AM
Someone mentioned that taking down the city though would affect the HQ downtime. I've yet to verify that but I suspect the answer is no. Has anyone experimented / can verify this?
City has still the same impact it used to have. Increases downtime of HQ just like towns, i.e. up to 120 additional minutes.
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: thndregg on December 16, 2017, 08:53:06 AM
This is the reason it is set up as it is. It SHOULD take a force..... and there by generating a fight.... to take down.
Wholeheartedly agree. In AH2, there were MASSIVE fights in the MA involving bombers and fighters on these kinds of sorties. Whether the target objective was achieved or not, the game objective of fun was achieved overall.
The main problem with the player base is lack of patience. It takes time to get off the runway to intercept such missions. It takes a lot time for the missions themselves to complete their objectives. Many lose sight of the fact that the fights do happen. Lots of player-made films over the years attest to this.
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: SlipKnt on December 16, 2017, 11:09:45 AM
Wholeheartedly agree. In AH2, there were MASSIVE fights in the MA involving bombers and fighters on these kinds of sorties. Whether the target objective was achieved or not, the game objective of fun was achieved overall.
The main problem with the player base is lack of patience. It takes time to get off the runway to intercept such missions. It takes a lot time for the missions themselves to complete their objectives. Many lose sight of the fact that the fights do happen. Lots of player-made films over the years attest to this.
:aok
Hopefully I can get some players to do some long range bombing tonight. I'll try to lead a few of them if possible. Anyone reading this wants to go bombing with me, I'll be KNIGHT and I'll post missions. I'll be on VMF-666 Maggot Suicide Squad VOX 166.
I won't add fighters to these missions but if any fighter jocks are willing, we'd welcome the escorts. Lets make some good fights tonight!
I DARE any of you enemy red bad guys to come get us! :devil
:rock
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: caldera on December 16, 2017, 01:29:26 PM
The best alternative that comes to mind is a reduction in the number of bases needed to win the war. If Bish kill Nit HQ, they would need less than the normal 20% of Nit fields (but still 20% Rook fields) to win the war. The percentage reduction should be worth at least the equivalent of 3 fields. Once the HQ is resupplied, the war win requirement would revert to 20% of both countries.
This would encourage group attacks on the HQ by giving it a real strategic value, instead of the current darbar blackout. It would promote fights, while no darbars only makes them harder to find.
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: Lazerr on December 16, 2017, 02:21:51 PM
The best alternative that comes to mind is a reduction in the number of bases needed to win the war. If Bish kill Nit HQ, they would need less than the normal 20% of Nit fields (but still 20% Rook fields) to win the war. The percentage reduction should be worth at least the equivalent of 3 fields. Once the HQ is resupplied, the war win requirement would revert to 20% of both countries.
This would encourage group attacks on the HQ by giving it a real strategic value, instead of the current darbar blackout. It would promote fights, while no darbars only makes them harder to find.
Man thats a great idea
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: bustr on December 16, 2017, 03:16:31 PM
This is a good idea.
Experience with Hitech and such things is he would do something to harden the HQ more and add much more auto ack so it would become a major effort and not something one guy can NOE a box of mossi bombers and tell the arena to screw itself. Then do you hit it after you capture one or two more feilds than needed for the minimum req or, flatten it first and pray your country has a longer attention span that evening? Will Hitech keep in place the relationship with the city so you can keep nibbling against it all night with a few guys while the rest of your country blunders around as usual attempting to take feilds?
If the HQ is kept in the backfield as usual, bomber missions will fly at 30k and need 163 to address them. If the HQ is moved forward like on the Fester map in AH2 which got us our current over hardened HQ condition. Does Hitech add say a GV hanger and manned guns to it and ask terrain builders to run a few spawns to it to allow tanks to try and kill the HQ by nibbling at it all night. I'm at a point with my new terrain this kind of object change can easily be incorporated and rolled out with the terrain when I submit it. Now if he had Waffle create an HQ02 object with things like this for active defense, I would use it but, make you have to capture your way to the airfields, hmmmm, maybe only vBases.. :lol, that can attack the HQ directly.
I'm already looking at moving the HQ's forward a tiny bit on my new terrain to facilitate access by bombers. Still that would have to be offset with 163 feilds but, I'm still working on the idea of a spawn area from two feilds 8-10 miles from the HQ and city with mirrored spawns from a near by uncapturable 163 field. That would create a strategic reason to capture into a back field of a country. Since I mirror all three countries it's fair because you can do the same thing to the other guy or try to kick the other guy out of your country. Caldera's idea would work nicely with this, create no end to whines here in the forums, and probably get that map flipped in one day.
I can already see the micro terrain for this, HQ and city near each other with the GV spawns all in the center about 1mile from each other. Minor details like 250-500ft deep canyons, a stream, some bridges...small stuff. Even if no new HQ object shows up this will work, I wish the Flak base objects by default were uncapturable aside from the three uncapturable airfeilds. It's just time consuming as are all aspects of making a terrain interesting for GV combat. This new terrain has a small enough ocean in the center it's just a task group dueling arena.....Meh, I'll add battleships to each port and the one port in each country will attract a hoard just to have 2cv and 2bb task groups to attack another country's 1cv and 1bb task groups. It will be easier to find all the task groups and sink them with bombers in such a small ocean...... :D
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: scott66 on December 16, 2017, 07:14:30 PM
Wholeheartedly agree. In AH2, there were MASSIVE fights in the MA involving bombers and fighters on these kinds of sorties. Whether the target objective was achieved or not, the game objective of fun was achieved overall.
The main problem with the player base is lack of patience. It takes time to get off the runway to intercept such missions. It takes a lot time for the missions themselves to complete their objectives. Many lose sight of the fact that the fights do happen. Lots of player-made films over the years attest to this.
meh I've seen 163s up from a close by strat and intercept bombers at 22k in about 90 seconds..I myself suck as a163 pilot so my 152 can get to alt pretty quick and intercept now all I need to do is learn not to saddle up on the bombers six..I seemed to fall much faster than I climb especially on fire :bhead
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: Volron on December 16, 2017, 09:27:42 PM
The best alternative that comes to mind is a reduction in the number of bases needed to win the war. If Bish kill Nit HQ, they would need less than the normal 20% of Nit fields (but still 20% Rook fields) to win the war. The percentage reduction should be worth at least the equivalent of 3 fields. Once the HQ is resupplied, the war win requirement would revert to 20% of both countries.
This would encourage group attacks on the HQ by giving it a real strategic value, instead of the current darbar blackout. It would promote fights, while no darbars only makes them harder to find.
Better tack on a time requirement for the HQ to be down, otherwise there would be the minimum of captures, then off to an HQ for the win. So you'd need to hit the city strat to x percent, then hit the HQ. Something along those lines. :)
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: Dundee on December 17, 2017, 12:35:23 AM
Better tack on a time requirement for the HQ to be down, otherwise there would be the minimum of captures, then off to an HQ for the win. So you'd need to hit the city strat to x percent, then hit the HQ. Something along those lines. :)
Unless they change it.....if the City is at 50% and you take down the HQ for the 5 minutes....you add the 50% and the HQ is down for 55 min or roughly 5 1/2 load of sups to bring it up. In AH II the resup was in a 4 min a load deal.....strats are now a 10 min a load...so it's nothing to waste your time taking down now..there was a benefit to having it down...the shades were in the dark as well
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: lunatic1 on December 17, 2017, 02:07:05 AM
if you take HQ down-the radar raiders won't have anything to do.
why do so many people hate the radar--lol dum question huh
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: lunatic1 on December 17, 2017, 02:15:24 AM
each strat building that gets destroyed is down for 180 mins per building its ridiculous to only have a 4 min per building resupp time. even at 10 mins per building it still takes awhile to resupp a strat.
oh and Dundee you sound like S--x talking about people having shades so what if they do-big deal.
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: TWCAxew on December 17, 2017, 09:39:18 AM
The best alternative that comes to mind is a reduction in the number of bases needed to win the war. If Bish kill Nit HQ, they would need less than the normal 20% of Nit fields (but still 20% Rook fields) to win the war. The percentage reduction should be worth at least the equivalent of 3 fields. Once the HQ is resupplied, the war win requirement would revert to 20% of both countries.
Now this would be cool!
+1
I believe my squad will feel that the bomber missions will be worth while if this is introduced.
DutchVII
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: caldera on December 17, 2017, 10:59:32 AM
Better tack on a time requirement for the HQ to be down, otherwise there would be the minimum of captures, then off to an HQ for the win. So you'd need to hit the city strat to x percent, then hit the HQ. Something along those lines. :)
And how could the war end any better than an epic battle for a hardened target, deep in enemy territory? :x
They'd still have to protect what bases they have, while sending a large enough of a force to take down the HQ. Much better than the current system of steamrolling any old undefended base for the win. It would give the HQ a reason for existence and give everyone reason to fight over it.
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: thndregg on December 17, 2017, 12:55:30 PM
meh I've seen 163s up from a close by strat and intercept bombers at 22k in about 90 seconds..I myself suck as a163 pilot so my 152 can get to alt pretty quick and intercept now all I need to do is learn not to saddle up on the bombers six..I seemed to fall much faster than I climb especially on fire :bhead
Good bomber formations are key. Everyone's guns covers everyone else. We dub this the "meat grinder". For the most part, this along with accurate communication, works.
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: thndregg on December 17, 2017, 01:10:09 PM
The best alternative that comes to mind is a reduction in the number of bases needed to win the war. If Bish kill Nit HQ, they would need less than the normal 20% of Nit fields (but still 20% Rook fields) to win the war. The percentage reduction should be worth at least the equivalent of 3 fields. Once the HQ is resupplied, the war win requirement would revert to 20% of both countries.
This would encourage group attacks on the HQ by giving it a real strategic value, instead of the current darbar blackout. It would promote fights, while no darbars only makes them harder to find.
This is something to consider. First impression is that I like it. I would like to see how the actual implementation proves out, but yes I agree about real strategic value leading to good fights to both protect and defend the target.
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: lunatic1 on December 17, 2017, 01:44:51 PM
The best alternative that comes to mind is a reduction in the number of bases needed to win the war. If Bish kill Nit HQ, they would need less than the normal 20% of Nit fields (but still 20% Rook fields) to win the war. The percentage reduction should be worth at least the equivalent of 3 fields. Once the HQ is resupplied, the war win requirement would revert to 20% of both countries.
This would encourage group attacks on the HQ by giving it a real strategic value, instead of the current darbar blackout. It would promote fights, while no darbars only makes them harder to find.
you people are nuts-you want to make it easier for the bish to win? and you know they will-they win most of the maps now as it is. now you want to help them. bish have dedicated bomber pilots who have no problem with climbing to 30-35k to bomb strats-esp Knight strats-whenever a new map pops up Knight strats are 1st to be hit and bish will continue to win the wars.
plus now your going to have junkyII in here whining about M3 resupply, for which is what he is trying to get stopped.
so yeah take out Knight HQ-then hit the rooks for the win, because everybody knows not very many rooks log on.. esp during weekdays, Knight and rook counts are low-most times bish out number Knights and rooks together in the mornings.
I once said I wouldn't do it, but I have started playing War Thunder- it's stupid but its also kind of fun.
do what you want I don't friggin care anymore
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: scott66 on December 17, 2017, 02:14:40 PM
Good bomber formations are key. Everyone's guns covers everyone else. We dub this the "meat grinder". For the most part, this along with accurate communication, works.
I took part in a 49er Mass b29 bomber mission it was awesome my bombs miss the target and I didn't make it back because I got separated from the pack but I had a blast got a few kills as a bonus
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: ghi on December 17, 2017, 06:10:57 PM
It's sad , was a great game getting mutilated ; HQ raids were best intense fun action in this game. What's left to play for ? Bs score and rank?
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: DubiousKB on December 18, 2017, 10:42:19 AM
Lack of numbers AND time investment is a killer!
:devil
I still think some air-spawns using perk points only would be cool.... Eliminate alot of "wasted" time... BUT hey, that's just me... :bolt:
(as i understand it, some gents/ladies in the game have MORE than enough perks to spend on something like this)
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: thndregg on December 18, 2017, 01:50:47 PM
I still think some air-spawns using perk points only would be cool.... Eliminate alot of "wasted" time... BUT hey, that's just me... :bolt:
The more this game is geared toward instant convenience, the less likely this guy will play. Since '04, I've been wary of this.. and definitely more-so now.
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: DubiousKB on December 18, 2017, 02:42:05 PM
The more this game is geared toward instant convenience, the less likely this guy will play. Since '04, I've been wary of this.. and definitely more-so now.
I don't understand this type of thinking.... What's so bad about not wanting to waste my entertainment time watching an altimeter climb...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Thndregg, does that mean you're unhappy that we have such "simplified" controls for our aircraft? How dare we not know the start-up sequence of the B17 because it's convenient to auto-takeoff? Automatic calibration of bombsites is an affront to your play-style?
Should the match play arena be removed because it's too convenient to get into action? lol I MUST be out to lunch.....
Aces High 4 Where you place the bolts into the airframe in the factory before taking command of the transport ship to drive REAL-TIME across the atlantic to MAYBE make it to an airfield, where YOU the player, can help load ammunition into the airframe you built, don't forget fuel or 10 years from now when you actually get to fly, you'll be sorry and have to start ALL over. Convenient? No, but hey change is bad... :devil
Ridiculous ironic rant over...
I just don't understand i guess. :salute
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: Electroman on December 18, 2017, 02:58:16 PM
I still think some air-spawns using perk points only would be cool.... Eliminate alot of "wasted" time... BUT hey, that's just me... :bolt:
(as i understand it, some gents/ladies in the game have MORE than enough perks to spend on something like this)
That's even more ridiculous. You want that - go play War Thunder or any other of the arcade style games. Correction - at least not in the Main Arena...don't really care much for the others.
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: bustr on December 18, 2017, 03:32:30 PM
And how could the war end any better than an epic battle for a hardened target, deep in enemy territory? :x
They'd still have to protect what bases they have, while sending a large enough of a force to take down the HQ. Much better than the current system of steamrolling any old undefended base for the win. It would give the HQ a reason for existence and give everyone reason to fight over it.
Without the object and function change for this alternate war win, I can create this scenario right now with the existing objects and functions. The real question about how this will be received when the rubber hits the road won't be possible until the terrain is in rotation. That whole thing about actually building terrains that get into rotation and as the builder you observe how the community really utilizes them versus all this forum spitballing. When Oceania was up on day1, the bish and knights ran through the rook territory and inside of two hours took 37% of their feilds. The majority of the rooks furballed and spawned a tank division into the center island and never put up a fight. Even that evening during prime time with the evening rooks they never really recovered the ground and the knights and bish ignored them.
Creating the conditions to place strategic locations in constant peril may only get you indifference in the MA and then the usual long term complaint posts here in the forums. It's more fun to greif something like this and then abuse it because it creates a 24x7 non-stop peril forcing a country into a constant posture of responding to initiatives against that location or whine on 200, whine in the forums. You saw it in AH2 with the Fester map and the HQ. Everyone knew after a point when that map was up, their HQ was going to be down no matter how many times they defended it or resupplied it. They burnt out on the whole issue and logged off, quit playing, or joined the long term complaint posts here in these very forums.
I think there is room at least to move the HQ and city closer to the country body of feilds to reduce the transit time for strat runners and bomber missions. And there is positive evidence from CraterMA and Buzzsaw that creating a capture path and carefully setup spawns to attract GVs to attack the HQ and city while having spawns for defense against those spawns is attractive to GVers and will create activity. Creating all of this and not simply handing over the HQ and city to greifers is what has to be worked out. The HQ and city on Fester were too easy to reach and too far away from where he funneled all of the player activity that the majority of customers look for in the MA. The community was faced with only two options, ignore defending the HQ and the long transit times to resupply the city while constantly playing the game blind. Or allow a handful of griefers to dictate how they would and where they would spend their evenings on the Fester map.
With an HQ object that responds to being taken down by reducing the percentage needed of feilds to win the war, I would make that HQ as hard to reach and take down as I did with my terrain BowlMA to balance the game play and greifer urges. The current HQ, I'm thinking about exposing it and the city to create more activity since Hitech has balanced it to control greifer urges. Games like ours even need to be attractive to greifer mentalities, you don't have to give away the game to them. Otherwise they have as much self control as an alcoholic and will eventually be just as destructive to the overall fun of your game community. We ended up with the HQ hardened for reasons like this and it's down time at 5 minutes but, the city still increases it's rebuild time if you make the effort to take it down. So with the next terrain I will make the HQ\city\strats more vulnerable.
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: thndregg on December 18, 2017, 06:56:25 PM
I don't understand this type of thinking.... What's so bad about not wanting to waste my entertainment time watching an altimeter climb...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Thndregg, does that mean you're unhappy that we have such "simplified" controls for our aircraft? How dare we not know the start-up sequence of the B17 because it's convenient to auto-takeoff? Automatic calibration of bombsites is an affront to your play-style?
Should the match play arena be removed because it's too convenient to get into action? lol I MUST be out to lunch.....
Aces High 4 Where you place the bolts into the airframe in the factory before taking command of the transport ship to drive REAL-TIME across the atlantic to MAYBE make it to an airfield, where YOU the player, can help load ammunition into the airframe you built, don't forget fuel or 10 years from now when you actually get to fly, you'll be sorry and have to start ALL over. Convenient? No, but hey change is bad... :devil
Ridiculous ironic rant over...
I just don't understand i guess. :salute
No. What you state is delving way too far into my thought.
What AH2 had in its game was a nice balance, and I played it a lot. I play AH3 far less because I think there is too much convenience (fine for the instant action folks) gradually creeping into the picture for my taste, and the player-base's attitude in general is one demonstrating much less patience and forethought than the community I knew in roughly the first decade of this century.
Title: Re: HQ - No Longer Needed
Post by: DubiousKB on December 19, 2017, 09:35:49 AM
No. What you state is delving way too far into my thought.
What AH2 had in its game was a nice balance, and I played it a lot. I play AH3 far less because I think there is too much convenience (fine for the instant action folks) gradually creeping into the picture for my taste, and the player-base's attitude in general is one demonstrating much less patience and forethought than the community I knew in roughly the first decade of this century.
Fair and level headed response... must be a bomber pilot... I was just cheesed and your post got me going is all... hyperbole is my goto crutch... :old: