Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Vraciu on August 12, 2018, 07:51:22 PM
-
P-51D-5-NA, s/n 44-13962
"Bloody Rebel!" - 5E-S
Lt. Jack O. Eubanks / Lt. Glenn W. Loucks
364th Fighter Group, 385th Fighter Squadron
1944
This is the P-51D-5-NA assigned to Lt. Jack O. Eubanks of the 385th Fighter Squadron 364th FG, S/N 44-13962 Coded 5E-S. (He scored at least one confirmed victory in this aircraft, an Me-109 on 15 August 1944.) Named “Bloody Rebel!” this Mustang was lost on 28 September 1944 when Lt. Glenn W Loucks was killed in action over Germany, just nine days after joining the squadron at the age of 27.
2nd Lt Glenn W. Loucks entered the Air Force as an Air Cadet in February 1943 from Wyckoff, Bergen County, New Jersey. He attended Ramsey High School in Ramsey, New Jersey.
Statement from Willard G. Erfkamp 2nd Lt., Air Corps:
"Lt. Loucks was flying #4 Position in Yellow Flight, I was #3 man. When we sighted the FW 190's attacking the bombers, we dropped our tanks and went into the fight. I saw Lt. Loucks drop his tanks end checked again to see that he was with me when we were on our way in to attack. After the first pass [on] a FW 190, I looked around for him but he wasn't there. I never saw him again. After the fight I heard him call in and report that he was at 5,000 feet on a heading of due west with a dead engine. He said he was going to ride it a little further and then get out. He was not heard on the radio after that." - MACR 9246
He was buried at the American War Cemetery Margraten.
https://www.fieldsofhonor-database.com/index.php/en/american-war-cemetery-margraten-l/45251-loucks-glenn-w
(https://www.fieldsofhonor-database.com/images/stories/margraten/l/loucks_glenn_w_02.jpg)
——
Originally skinned by Fencer I have redrawn the entire aircraft except for the female nose art figure. I preserved her likeness (with some minor cleanup and resizing) as a tribute to Fencer's work.
The screenshots are blurring the red on the nose art but the game doesn't look like that. :bhead
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=394126.0;attach=30632)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=394126.0;attach=30628)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=394126.0;attach=30616)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=394126.0;attach=30618)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=394126.0;attach=30620)
-
:aok
-
Thanks buddy.
Test post with BMPs follows.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=394126.0;attach=30622)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=394126.0;attach=30626)
-
Very nice.
Interesting that this plane and "Pin Up Girl" used the same pin-up image.
-
Very nice.
Interesting that this plane and "Pin Up Girl" used the same pin-up image.
Thanks, man.
I noticed that, too. I wonder who she was in real life.
-
:aok
-
Fencer did that one for me during DGS II as I had the 364th FG and wanted an appropriate skin. It was based on these two images I have showing both sides of the nose of Bloody Rebel
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/BloodyRebel_zpsqkdnvuwg.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/BloodyRebel_zpsqkdnvuwg.jpg.html)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/364th51_zpslqsm9tlw.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/364th51_zpslqsm9tlw.jpg.html)
If you want to make it more accurate, lower the fuselage stripes to the depot painted style the 364th used. I didn't notice it until after Fencer had submitted it.
These are also 364th birds from my photo collection
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/364th1_zpsdwyxwkb3.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/364th1_zpsdwyxwkb3.jpg.html)
You can see where the fuselage stripes end near the bottom of the star
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/364th4_zpsugjpkiie.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/364th4_zpsugjpkiie.jpg.html)
-
Thanks for the input. Good to know the right side of the nose is blank.
I have a dozen images of 364th airplanes and there is no clear pattern on how the fuselage stripes were painted. Some omitted the forward white stripe. Some touched the star bar. Some left a small margin. Some left a large one. Still others are a combination. As with everything there is no hard fast rule.
Without a photo of this airplane it is purely a SWAG. Edit In: I cannot embed the images nor upload them from an iPad. Will try tomorrow from my computer.
http://s262.photobucket.com/user/Duggy009/media/1st%20Scouting%20Force/17%20October%201944%20P-51D%2044-13686%20Rugged%20Rebel%20assigned%20to%20LTC%20Allison%20C.%20Brooks%20of%20the%201st%20Scouting%20Force%20doesnt%20quite%20leave%20Honington.%201LT%20John%20J.%20Allen%20suffered%20power%20loss..jpg.html
https://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/5452
https://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/27918
http://s262.photobucket.com/user/Duggy009/media/1st%20Scouting%20Force/P-51D%2044-13764%205E-B.%20Pilot%20is%20Phil%20Algar%20on%20his%20way%20to%20Grafton%20Underwood%20for%20the%20200th%20mission%20party%20of%20his%20old%20unit%20the%20384th%20BG..jpg.html
-
The images you are linking to are 1st Scouting Force Mustangs. The only 364th bird is the one with the chopped off tail and it's got the depot applied stripes.
How many photos of the stripes as described would you like to see for proof? :)
-
The images you are linking to are 1st Scouting Force Mustangs. The only 364th bird is the one with the chopped off tail and it's got the depot applied stripes.
How many photos of the stripes as described would you like to see for proof? :)
If they are 5N then what's the difference? I doubt they had D-Day stripes added after the fact in some haphazard manner.
I appreciate your help. However, I get the impression you think I just make this up as I go along without looking into it. You seem to take the depot as gospel when it is ABSOLUTELY NOT consistent. I have evidence that shows things to contrary of every single one of your assertions regarding depot stripes.
So, as far as this airplane goes, anything we do is pure conjecture. If you have something to offer in the way of assistance I am always grateful, but at this point you have a photo of half an airplane and that's it.
We have multiple 5N airplanes with all sorts of stripes on them. There is no consistent application. We are taking a shot in the dark here at best without a photo of the airplane in question. I went with what Fencer drew because I assumed he had more photos available than I have. The ones I dug up supported his version. I will leave it up to you guys to decide what it should be and I can adjust it. But spare me the condescension like I'm some retard throwing crayons at a wall. I'm making an EDUCATED guess here.
-
Trust me on this one
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/n2-o4_zps6dqzk6cd.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/n2-o4_zps6dqzk6cd.jpg.html)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Smith3_zpssmipqbtz.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/Smith3_zpssmipqbtz.jpg.html)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/n2-dbar2_zpshwdto0ql.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/n2-dbar2_zpshwdto0ql.jpg.html)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Smith3_zpspxykk51v.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/Smith3_zpspxykk51v.jpg.html)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/n2-e_zpsutev2u0z.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/n2-e_zpsutev2u0z.jpg.html)
-
Understand that the 364th FG transitioned from 38s to 51s late summer 44 so they got new birds from the depot. They didn't have 51s on D-Day so they didn't put stripes on them. They did that to their 38s. So when they got 51s they came brand spanking new out of the depot which at that point would have been painting the birds in standard ETO markings of the time, which was NOT full invasion stripes etc. Being a 364th junkie, I'd like you to at least accept I have some sort of clue here :)
Look at the 51 in the background of the image showing Bloody Rebel. Note the fuselage stripes. nuff said :)
-
Understand that the 364th FG transitioned from 38s to 51s late summer 44 so they got new birds from the depot. They didn't have 51s on D-Day so they didn't put stripes on them. They did that to their 38s. So when they got 51s they came brand spanking new out of the depot which at that point would have been painting the birds in standard ETO markings of the time, which was NOT full invasion stripes etc. Being a 364th junkie, I'd like you to at least accept I have some sort of clue here :)
Look at the 51 in the background of the image showing Bloody Rebel. Note the fuselage stripes. nuff said :)
1) Those are all N2 birds. I'm really not interested in N2s (and they are also somewhat random). I want the 5Es.
2) I've seen more 5E airplanes with no fuselage stripes than with any at all.
3) Your presumption is that the Scouting Force added some haphazard random Invasion Stripes six months after D-Day with no rhyme or reason to them.
4) This airplane was lost in September of 1944. We know it had a black stripe on the wings and that's it. Anything else is a guess based on incomplete information.
5) Do we have ANY P-51D-5 photos from 5E? I haven't seen one yet.
-
Look at the 51 in the background of the image showing Bloody Rebel. Note the fuselage stripes. nuff said :)
I already noted those and discarded them. They are from a different squadron/group. But I did notice their black stripes appear to go all the way up to the star bar, so they would prove my point not yours. 'Nuff said. :P
-
Trust me on this one
I'd like to but you are gonna' have to do more to convince me what the correct answer is than this.
I am only concerned with getting it right, not being right. I definitely appreciate your help, as always. :cheers:
-
Argh! The images of 5E birds you see are after the stripes were removed. The N2 birds are 364th as are the 5E. you are making this much harder than it has to be. They didn't paint the stripes at the squadron or even group level when the 364th got their 51s. They removed them when the orders came down at squadron and group level but they didn't paint them originally.
More 364th birds. Clearly they took more photos of the N2 coded birds. The Group history reflects that in terms of images as well. it doesn't change the fact they got 51s with depot applied markings
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/383flight_zpsprdtqefq.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/383flight_zpsprdtqefq.jpg.html)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/n2-dbar_zps3auzhdea.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/n2-dbar_zps3auzhdea.jpg.html)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Stangs_zpsdddh6jb6.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/Stangs_zpsdddh6jb6.jpg.html)
-
I found this.
(http://www.americanairmuseum.com/sites/default/files/media/media-22513.jpeg)
-
Also understand that Fencer did the markings based on the profile of the plane I did before I realized the stripes were incorrect.
That's where the info came from. The stripes are as I did them, incorrectly
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/BloodyRebel364th2nd_zps7menqenx.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/BloodyRebel364th2nd_zps7menqenx.jpg.html)
-
I found this.
(http://www.americanairmuseum.com/sites/default/files/media/media-22513.jpeg)
He is claiming that’s irrelevant because it was a 1st Scouting Force airplane at the time of the photo.
I contend it is a better idea of what a 5E P-51D-5 would look like because they would have painted over the 5E with the added white stripe if it was added after leaving the 364th.
Same here—5E still visible despite white stripe:
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii120/Duggy009/1st%20Scouting%20Force/17%20October%201944%20P-51D%2044-13686%20Rugged%20Rebel%20assigned%20to%20LTC%20Allison%20C.%20Brooks%20of%20the%201st%20Scouting%20Force%20doesnt%20quite%20leave%20Honington.%201LT%20John%20J.%20Allen%20suffered%20power%20loss..jpg)
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii120/Duggy009/1st%20Scouting%20Force/17%20October%201944%20P-51D%2044-13686%20Rugged%20Rebel%20assigned%20to%20LTC%20Allison%20C.%20Brooks%20of%20the%201st%20Scouting%20Force%20doesnt%20quite%20leave%20Honington.%201LT%20John%20J.%20Allen%20suffered%20power%20loss..jpg
-
Also understand that Fencer did the markings based on the profile of the plane I did before I realized the stripes were incorrect.
That's where the info came from. The stripes are as I did them, incorrectly
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/BloodyRebel364th2nd_zps7menqenx.jpg[/img] (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/BloodyRebel364th2nd_zps7menqenx.jpg.html)
You did that? Pretty nice.
Do we at least know how many white stripes it had? I have to do the blending on the fuselage parts one way or the other so it would be nice to know at least that before I worry about trimming their height.
-
You did that? Pretty nice.
Do we at least know how many white stripes it had? I have to do the blending on the fuselage parts one way or the other so it would be nice to know at least that before I worry about trimming their height.
From every image it's safe to say only one white stripe surrounded by black stripes.
-
From every image it's safe to say only one white stripe surrounded by black stripes.
So do the center white stripe with all three chopped down?
-
I found this.
(http://www.americanairmuseum.com/sites/default/files/media/media-22513.jpeg)
Again, 1st Scouting Force. note it's an early 51D-5NA without the Fillet on the tail. So it would have been flying prior to when the 364th transitioned to 51s. The 1st SF was formed by a former bomber Group Leader, Budd Peaslee. His 51 was one you posted your first time posting 1st SF birds.
This is his 51 which also was a 5-NA without the fillet. Note the placement of the stripes. Again an early 51D, not one from the depot sent to the 364th when they gave up 38s
[(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/CarolineAnne_zpsybkjjgnv.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/CarolineAnne_zpsybkjjgnv.jpg.html)
They are not 364th FG planes despite the code letters.
-
Another 5E...
(https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/usa/aircrafts/p-51-mustang/P-51D_Serial_44-13993_5E-R_of_the_385th_FS_364th_FG_26_August_1944.jpg)
-
Again, 1st Scouting Force. note it's an early 51D-5NA without the Fillet on the tail. So it would have been flying prior to when the 364th transitioned to 51s. The 1st SF was formed by a former bomber Group Leader, Budd Peaslee. His 51 was one you posted your first time posting 1st SF birds.
This is his 51 which also was a 5-NA without the fillet. Note the placement of the stripes. Again an early 51D, not one from the depot sent to the 364th when they gave up 38s
[
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/CarolineAnne_zpsybkjjgnv.jpg[/img] (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/CarolineAnne_zpsybkjjgnv.jpg.html)
They are not 364th FG planes despite the code letters.
The airplane I am skinning IS a P-51D-5-NA. If that’s how they were striped then this one would be also I think...that’s the confusion.
And why would they have 5E and not have been 364th airplanes at some point?
-
So do the center white stripe with all three chopped down?
No. White/Black/White/Black/White at the lower level on the fuselage. The dirt and grime makes it look like it's missing in the black and white images
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/ShackLassie_zpsvrhgt1kh.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/ShackLassie_zpsvrhgt1kh.jpg.html)
-
So do the center white stripe with all three chopped down?
I would do that. If the D-5's are not 364th GF, then they are irrelevant despite having the same squadron code - as bizarre as that is.
-
No. White/Black/White/Black/White at the lower level on the fuselage. The dirt and grime makes it look like it's missing in the black and white images
[]http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/ShackLassie_zpsvrhgt1kh.jpg[/img] (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/ShackLassie_zpsvrhgt1kh.jpg.html)
Okay. See my post above. Clarify that if you don’t mind. Basically all I’m looking at now is the height of the stripes then...
-
I would do that. If the D-5's are not 364th GF, then they are irrelevant despite having the same squadron code - as bizarre as that is.
Yeah. Bizarre as hell. :headscratch:
-
Yeah. Bizarre as hell. :headscratch:
Listen to Guppy. my post landed after his last one did, but I did not see it.
-
I would do that. If the D-5's are not 364th GF, then they are irrelevant despite having the same squadron code - as bizarre as that is.
They also carried codes that match 355th FG planes. They were not attached to either although some of the pilots did come from those groups. They also were converted bomber guys flying them.
-
Also understand that Fencer did the markings based on the profile of the plane I did before I realized the stripes were incorrect.
That's where the info came from. The stripes are as I did them, incorrectly
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/BloodyRebel364th2nd_zps7menqenx.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/BloodyRebel364th2nd_zps7menqenx.jpg.html)
Shows how the web works. Someone took the markings right off my profile and made graphics for this plane. I didn't use the correct swastikas because of the game. Note the thief followed my lead :) Screwed up by having the art on both sides however. Fond on the tail is the same too :)
https://callie-graphics.com/products/p-51-bloody-rebel
-
^^^^^^ Funny stuff. I actually saved those graphics as a potential reference. Lol.
They also carried codes that match 355th FG planes. They were not attached to either although some of the pilots did come from those groups. They also were converted bomber guys flying them.
I am reading in one spot that the 1SFX used 5E. Another place says they used underlined versions of the main code letters YF, OS, and WR (355th FG).
It SEEMS though, that they inherited some 364th airplanes based on some crackup photos. Still, this could just be confusion. It’s amazing how many 5E photos cover up the exact spot I want to see. :bhead
-
^^^^^^ Funny stuff. I actually saved those graphics as a potential reference. Lol.
I am reading in one spot that the 1SFX used 5E. Another place says they used underlined versions of the main code letters YF, OS, and WR (355th FG).
It SEEMS though, that they inherited some 364th airplanes based on some crackup photos. Still, this could just be confusion. It’s amazing how many 5E photos cover up the exact spot I want to see. :bhead
A 1st SF 51 from my collection. 9H. Go figure :)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/1SFMustang_zpsjvq9auip.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/1SFMustang_zpsjvq9auip.jpg.html)
-
A 1st SF 51 from my collection. 9H. Go figure :)
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/1SFMustang_zpsjvq9auip.jpg[/img] (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/1SFMustang_zpsjvq9auip.jpg.html)
Facepalm.
-
So let's drill down again.
They obviously inherited planes.
One of the D-5s they inherited is a former 5E and has the raised stripes.
I'm doing a 5E D-5.
We don't see a possible correlation?
I better save a copy of this version before I wipe out the stripes in case we change our collective mind here.
-
This is my wallpaper. Also a photo from my collection. End of the war, P51K "Kitty Blue Eyes". Note no stripes of any kind as they'd all been gotten rid of by that time. Next up were the aircraft letters painted on the underside of the wings once the war was over and the guys started getting in trouble for buzzing people out of boredom :)
That scenario where I had the 364th really got me going on them. I've collected photos, gathered the histories etc ever since.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/P51K2_zpshksp9nzd.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/P51K2_zpshksp9nzd.jpg.html)
-
So let's drill down again.
They obviously inherited planes.
One of the D-5s they inherited is a former 5E and has the raised stripes.
I'm doing a 5E D-5.
We don't see a possible correlation?
I better save a copy of this version before I wipe out the stripes in case we change our collective mind here.
All photo evidence of 364th kites show the stripes as I described them. The only thing showing the raised stripes was my profile that Fencer used to do the skin. 1st SF kites are not 364th birds and are not evidence of that type of painted stripes on combat 364th 51s.
Go with the 364th photo evidence. Quit being distracted by the 1st SF birds with 5E codes.
-
All photo evidence of 364th kites show the stripes as I described them. The only thing showing the raised stripes was my profile that Fencer used to do the skin. 1st SF kites are not 364th birds and are not evidence of that type of painted stripes on combat 364th 51s.
Go with the 364th photo evidence. Quit being distracted by the 1st SF birds with 5E codes.
How can they NOT be (former) 364th airplanes?
I am precisely distracted because this is a mystery in need of an explanation.
Exceptions prove rules.
The airplane I am skinning is a P-51D-5-NA. What would a P-51D-5-NA look like with the 364th, specifically 5E?
SOMEWHERE there has to be an explanation.
-
This is my wallpaper. Also a photo from my collection. End of the war, P51K "Kitty Blue Eyes". Note no stripes of any kind as they'd all been gotten rid of by that time. Next up were the aircraft letters painted on the underside of the wings once the war was over and the guys started getting in trouble for buzzing people out of boredom :)
That scenario where I had the 364th really got me going on them. I've collected photos, gathered the histories etc ever since.
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/P51K2_zpshksp9nzd.jpg[/img] (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/P51K2_zpshksp9nzd.jpg.html)
I have lots of 5E photos with no stripes on the fuselage. None are D-5s best I can recall.
-
http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/groups/scouting-force/?offset=0&pageNum=1
Listing of SF airplanes. I saw one for 364th earlier which helped me track down the MACR for Lt. Loucks.
http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/groups/364th-fighter-group/?offset=150&pageNum=4
A little cross reference exercise. Not so easy with so many missing details...
364FG Summary:
44- P-51D 384 5Y- O'Connor Capt. Frederick T (to 1SF) Mary Honey
Named for Highschool sweetheart - later Mrs O'Connor
1SF Summary:
44- P-51D 1SF - O'Connor Capt. Frederick T (ex 364 F/G) Mary Honey
Named for future Wife
1SF call letters listed as N2 5Y 5E (Honington)
Callsign:
Buckeye (Honnington)
Cavarly (Basingbourn)
Assigned aircraft:
http://usafunithistory.com/PDF/1-4/1%20SCOUTING%20FORCE.pdf
-
385th FS...odd striping...
(http://www.americanairmuseum.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/freeman/media-401006.jpg?itok=ShcSBhrp)
Nose markings still 385th FS...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CcQT0DfUsAAQtUO.jpg)
-
Mustang in background has markings for 385th FS...note stripe height. (I cannot tell.)
Plane in foreground has 5E code AND YF code. :headscratch:
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii120/Duggy009/1st%20Scouting%20Force/P-51D%2044-13709%205E-H%20Frances%20Ann.%20The%20remains%20of%20the%20SFX%20code%20of%20YF-H%20may%20still%20be%20seen..jpg)
-
Ex-364th airplane assigned to 1st SF. Markings unchanged.
364th Listing Says:
44-11567 P-51K 384 5Y-P Dana Kay
1SF Listing Says:
44-11567 P-51K 1SF 5Y-P Dana Kay Crash landed 15 Jan 45 - Lt. Wayne O Fox
So the 5E markings must correlate to ex-385th aircraft...
https://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/30360
“Like many other 'Mustangs' of the 364th FG, P-51K 44-11567 ‘Dana Kay’ appears to have migrated to the 1st Scouting Force. Originally assigned to the 384th Ftr Sq (coded 5Y-P), she suffered this landing accident 15 January 1945 at the hands of Lt Wayne O. Fox.”
(https://www.americanairmuseum.com/sites/default/files/media/media-30360.jpeg)
-
Nice skin Vraciu, looks just right.
The nose art is a copy of pin up art originally painted by the Peruvian artist Joaquin Alberto Vargas y Chávez. His pin up girl art became very popular in the USA in 1940 and his work was used as nose art on a huge number of Allied planes during the war. So its likely there were lots of aircraft using the same pin up as this aircraft. There is a site for Vargas' art here (http://www.thepinupfiles.com/vargas1.html). Its handy sometimes as a second source if the photo of the aircraft isn't good enough to reproduce the nose art directly.
-
The nose art is a copy of pin up art originally painted by the Peruvian artist Joaquin Alberto Vargas y Chávez. His pin up girl art became very popular in the USA in 1940 and his work was used as nose art on a huge number of Allied planes during the war. So its likely there were lots of aircraft using the same pin up as this aircraft. There is a site for Vargas' art here (http://www.thepinupfiles.com/vargas1.html). Its handy sometimes as a second source if the photo of the aircraft isn't good enough to reproduce the nose art directly.
Never fails to impress.
-
Nice skin Vraciu, looks just right.
The nose art is a copy of pin up art originally painted by the Peruvian artist Joaquin Alberto Vargas y Chávez. His pin up girl art became very popular in the USA in 1940 and his work was used as nose art on a huge number of Allied planes during the war. So its likely there were lots of aircraft using the same pin up as this aircraft. There is a site for Vargas' art here (http://www.thepinupfiles.com/vargas1.html). Its handy sometimes as a second source if the photo of the aircraft isn't good enough to reproduce the nose art directly.
Thanks, G.
A Vargas girl? Facepalm. Of course! Totally forgot about those. Good info. :salute
-
Mustang in background has markings for 385th FS...note stripe height. (I cannot tell.)
Plane in foreground has 5E code AND YF code. :headscratch:
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii120/Duggy009/1st%20Scouting%20Force/P-51D%2044-13709%205E-H%20Frances%20Ann.%20The%20remains%20of%20the%20SFX%20code%20of%20YF-H%20may%20still%20be%20seen..jpg)
LOL Quit looking at 1st SF birds. The stripes on the background bird are the height of the other N2 kites I've shown you. The image of Dana Kaya damaged was taken while with the 364th not after it went to 1st SF
-
Remember, the only reason we are having the discussion is because I got it wrong on the original profile that Fencer used to do Bloody Rebel! in the first place.
Your redo is based on his skin which is based on my profile with the incorrect stripe height on the fuselage. If I'd done it right in the first place, you wouldn't be thinking about it at all :)
-
It occurs to me that no one else will give a damn but me, so if you want leave it as is. No one will care outside of myself :)
-
LOL Quit looking at 1st SF birds. The stripes on the background bird are the height of the other N2 kites I've shown you. The image of Dana Kaya damaged was taken while with the 364th not after it went to 1st SF
1) The 1st SF airplanes tell you what the 364th planes looked like before they were transferred. The 5B was NOT overpainted. In fact, 1st SF appears to have kept the striping that was in place when the aircraft were transferred.
2) I have also shown multiple 364th airplanes with stripes that in no way match yours.
3) 364th had P-51B, C, D, and K. Ds started with D-5-NAs (your screenshot even shows some non-fillet D models with N2). The airplane in question is a D-5. It was almost-certainly in the early batch of arrivals prior to the semi-standardized depot striping you advocate.
Again, this is all conjecture. Nobody is right or wrong until we have a photo that shows it.
This is a forensics investigation at this point. We are trying to connect dots. It is not a matter of what we want it to be but rather what it WAS.
-
Remember, the only reason we are having the discussion is because I got it wrong on the original profile that Fencer used to do Bloody Rebel! in the first place.
Your redo is based on his skin which is based on my profile with the incorrect stripe height on the fuselage. If I'd done it right in the first place, you wouldn't be thinking about it at all :)
You are dead wrong there. I looked up every single stripe variation and simply went with what was plausible. The only question I had in my mind was whether or not to have a full-height forward stripe and whether or not to leave the margin where the national insignia is on the rest.
I advocate for the stripes shown on the D-5 both Devil and I posted. But this is just a guess. It would help to know when this airplane came aboard the squadron.
It occurs to me that no one else will give a damn but me, so if you want leave it as is. No one will care outside of myself :)
Well, it's precisely because you give a damn that I am making the effort to find the right answer before I commit to something.
And where the heck is Lyric1 any way? Someone kick him awake.
-
Here's the short stripe version...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=394126.0;attach=30635)
-
1) The 1st SF airplanes tell you what the 364th planes looked like before they were transferred. The 5B was NOT overpainted. In fact, 1st SF appears to have kept the striping that was in place when the aircraft were transferred.
2) I have also shown multiple 364th airplanes with stripes that in no way match yours.
3) 364th had P-51B, C, D, and K. Ds started with D-5-NAs (your screenshot even shows some non-fillet D models with N2). The airplane in question is a D-5. It was almost-certainly in the early batch of arrivals prior to the semi-standardized depot striping you advocate.
Again, this is all conjecture. Nobody is right or wrong until we have a photo that shows it.
This is a forensics investigation at this point. We are trying to connect dots. It is not a matter of what we want it to be but rather what it WAS.
Show me an operational 364th flown bird with the stripes as I did it in the first profile that caused the fuss. I've not seen one yet, just 1st SF birds. Every photo I've posted of combat flown 364th birds from the same time frame has the lower stripes.
If for no other reason than the photo evidence shows an overwhelming number painted with the lower stripes, I'd go lower as should the 364th go again in a scenario, I'd like to have it look the part.
-
Show me an operational 364th flown bird with the stripes as I did it in the first profile that caused the fuss. I've not seen one yet, just 1st SF birds. Every photo I've posted of combat flown 364th birds from the same time frame has the lower stripes.
If for no other reason than the photo evidence shows an overwhelming number painted with the lower stripes, I'd go lower as should the 364th go again in a scenario, I'd like to have it look the part.
I don't entirely agree with you but since we are guessing any way...may as well go with the spirit of the unit. Occam's Razor, too. :salute
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,394133.msg5229249.html#msg5229249
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=394133.0;attach=30637)
-
Understand that the 364th got the tail end of the D-5 production as it transitioned to the 51. Again they were flown in from the depots not hand me downs. The B and C models were used for transition training. Those would have been hand me downs and used as War Weary's for training. So far I've only documented two B/Cs that were operational with the 364th. One with a Malcom and one without.
I know you want photo proof of a 385th with those stripes. I'll see what I can do to find one to ease your mind.
I appreciate that you made the change to the skin. When I fly a 51D it's that skin or the one that Cactus did of the 364th that I use.
-
This might ease your mind since the 1st SF birds with 5E seem to be a focus. Note the serial number is lower than the one you are skinning, so it's an earlier D-5. Also note the fuselage stripes.
(https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/usa/aircrafts/p-51-mustang/P-51D_Mustang_364_Fighter_Group_385_Fighter_Squadron_8th_AF_44-13891_5E-G.jpg)
-
This D-5 that you posted is a couple hundred D-5s prior to Bloody Rebel! That may explain the difference in stripes. Again the one I just posted is less than 100 before Bloody Rebel! and has the stripes we've been discussing.
(http://www.americanairmuseum.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/media/media-22513.jpeg?itok=LlR13G4R)
-
A later 5E coded 51 with 1st SF. Lower stripes again.
(http://www.americanairmuseum.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/freeman/media-401007.jpg?itok=yOqaUFIA)
-
Checking the serial number range it appears the change from the stripes halfway up to the style on Bloody Rebel! was in the 700 range about midway through. Even 357th birds that had painted upper surfaces show the later style once it passes that serial range. After that, regardless of which group you look at, the replacement 51s are coming with that style of fuselage striping.
-
This might ease your mind since the 1st SF birds with 5E seem to be a focus. Note the serial number is lower than the one you are skinning, so it's an earlier D-5. Also note the fuselage stripes.
(https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/usa/aircrafts/p-51-mustang/P-51D_Mustang_364_Fighter_Group_385_Fighter_Squadron_8th_AF_44-13891_5E-G.jpg)
I believe I posted that one already in my first batch.
As I said, there's not much consistency to it, but...........if this is a D5 with a fillet added later (I didn't check the S/N) then that certainly helps your case.
-
A later 5E coded 51 with 1st SF. Lower stripes again.
(http://www.americanairmuseum.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/freeman/media-401007.jpg?itok=yOqaUFIA)
Again, I already posted this one. I pointed out that the stripes on this one are inverse. Black outboard instead of white. Very unusual.
-
Checking the serial number range it appears the change from the stripes halfway up to the style on Bloody Rebel! was in the 700 range about midway through. Even 357th birds that had painted upper surfaces show the later style once it passes that serial range. After that, regardless of which group you look at, the replacement 51s are coming with that style of fuselage striping.
Good to know. That helps.
-
always been on of my favorite skins!
-
always been on of my favorite skins!
Check our Ver 2... Same forum. I updated the stripes. Hopefully you will like it. :salute