General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: John Galt on June 05, 2019, 11:09:26 AM
Title: Russians Mad
Post by: John Galt on June 05, 2019, 11:09:26 AM
http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-claims-d-day-memorials-effort-to-pretend-ussr-didnt-win-wwii-2019-6 I don't see them apologizing for joining the Nazis in Poland.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Vraciu on June 05, 2019, 12:19:38 PM
D-Day celebrations/commemorations salute the beginning of the liberation of Europe from tyranny—something the Soviet’s could never claim. Their record in that regard condemns them.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Toad on June 05, 2019, 12:54:47 PM
Well, after the Russkies got done helping the Nazis kill a lot of Poles they eventually got around to actually fighting the Nazis. After getting their rear ends kicked for a while they did finally go on the offensive, pushing the Nazis back to Berlin and, along the way, enslaving formerly independent countries for more than 40 years.
Credit where credit is due, I guess. Let them claim that as their accomplishment.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: John Galt on June 05, 2019, 03:31:20 PM
Well, after the Russkies got done helping the Nazis kill a lot of Poles they eventually got around to actually fighting the Nazis. After getting their rear ends kicked for a while they did finally go on the offensive, pushing the Nazis back to Berlin and, along the way, enslaving formerly independent countries for more than 40 years.
Credit where credit is due, I guess. Let them claim that as their accomplishment.
They got what they deserved end of story.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: CptTrips on June 05, 2019, 05:12:14 PM
The Soviet State got what it deserved as did the Nazi State when the favor was returned.
I'm not sure if every one of the 20 million humans that perished did individually.
If Hitler had never invaded USSR and the pact had held, do you think we could have defeated the undivided might of Germany?
Could the war have lasted until 1960?
I guess we would have won eventually anyway since we developed the bomb. That would have been a mess.
:old:
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: DmonSlyr on June 05, 2019, 07:13:21 PM
This is why nothing pisses me off more than people calling conservatives 'Nazis'. The Nazis were in Cahoots with the Russian commies from day 1. They were all fighting for the same thing, a communist government take over for all of Europe. Then Hitler decided, meh, screw Russia, we want that too. (How nationalist of him). Stalin realized that Hitler was a crazy lunatic so he joined our efforts out of spite. Since then, the US has always been buddy buddy with the Soviets. McCarthy knew but of course the Soviets and Dems had our media already so they shamed him and made him to be the bad guy. Since then the Soviets and Nazis regrouped with each other as they realized they still had the same overall global ideals of government totalitarian control. Now we have the Russian Soviets, Dem soviets and Nazi Germany leaders like Merkel who have all taken over the EU. That's why the EU has turned against their own people to allow migrants to take over countries. They hate nationalist who are proud of their countries. Russia is mad because they no longer have control of the American people's perception thru the soviet media. Everything the Dems are doing today is reverse psychology projection, a soviet tactic. They shall get no credit from us.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: davidpt40 on June 05, 2019, 07:19:30 PM
The Soviets had the Germans on the retreat since the summer of 1943. While we were invading Normandy and breaking out of the hedgerows, the Soviets completely destroyed German Army Group Center with "Operation Bagration". Whether we knew it at the time or not, invading France was more about keeping it free of Soviet occupation than destroying the German army.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Arlo on June 05, 2019, 09:11:04 PM
This is why nothing pisses me off more than people calling conservatives 'Nazis'. The Nazis were in Cahoots with the Russian commies from day 1. They were all fighting for the same thing, a communist government take over for all of Europe. Then Hitler decided, meh, screw Russia, we want that too. (How nationalist of him). Stalin realized that Hitler was a crazy lunatic so he joined our efforts out of spite. Since then, the US has always been buddy buddy with the Soviets. McCarthy knew but of course the Soviets and Dems had our media already so they shamed him and made him to be the bad guy. Since then the Soviets and Nazis regrouped with each other as they realized they still had the same overall global ideals of government totalitarian control. Now we have the Russian Soviets, Dem soviets and Nazi Germany leaders like Merkel who have all taken over the EU. That's why the EU has turned against their own people to allow migrants to take over countries. They hate nationalist who are proud of their countries. Russia is mad because they no longer have control of the American people's perception thru the soviet media. Everything the Dems are doing today is reverse psychology projection, a soviet tactic. They shall get no credit from us.
You need some basic history classes. Poli Sci, as well. Maybe just a conspiracy deprogramming program. Of course, you'll be claiming your post was 'facts.' :D
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Oldman731 on June 05, 2019, 09:24:05 PM
The Soviets had the Germans on the retreat since the summer of 1943. While we were invading Normandy and breaking out of the hedgerows, the Soviets completely destroyed German Army Group Center with "Operation Bagration". Whether we knew it at the time or not, invading France was more about keeping it free of Soviet occupation than destroying the German army.
Agreed. Although we didn't know that at the time. Normandy is quite a bit closer to Berlin than Minsk.
Well...maybe not Berlin, but certainly the Ruhr.
- oldman
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Vraciu on June 05, 2019, 10:58:26 PM
The mere threat of an invasion like D-Day in the West sucked up resources from the German Eastern Front. The Russians were bullet sponges to the bitter end. D-Day not only hastened Germany’s demise but made Russia’s slog a lot less costly (by saving the aforementioned time and thinning resistance).
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Vraciu on June 05, 2019, 11:09:10 PM
Agreed. Although we didn't know that at the time. Normandy is quite a bit closer to Berlin than Minsk.
Well...maybe not Berlin, but certainly the Ruhr.
- oldman
They knew. That’s part of why they went ahead with Overlord. Russian dominance of Europe was a concern.
I’m simplifying but... The war could have (and would have) been won via air power without Overlord. But it would have taken longer and likely cost more lives overall—more Russian and German, fewer American, Canadian, and British.
Just as we swamped the Japanese with our carrier and aircraft production the Soviets swamped Germany with their production of armor and manpower (though Russia was hurting badly by 1945 due to the massive attrition suffered as compared to American forces in the Pacific). Germany really never had a chance—short of developing atomic weaponry or some other miracle weapon like sharks with laser beams attached to their heads. The territory they had to conquer was simply too vast for a nation of that size a population.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Chalenge on June 06, 2019, 12:32:05 AM
I think for the many millions of people that Stalin ordered "left to their fate" they would consider that Stalin lost the war. Stalin killed more of his own people than his troops ever did kill. He even started off the war by cleansing his ranks of anyone that understood German tactics, in particular concerning blitzkrieg and mutual support. He put men into action without proper equipment and left them to absorb bullets and cannon. Entire battalions of tanks engaged without gunnery or tactical training. And also, there were no Russians that invaded at Normandy. We called it D-Day because we broke through the monstrous wall, known as The Atlantic Wall on our way to defeat Hitler. Without the sacrifice of 150,000 airmen killed in strategic bombers the Russians would have faced a much, much harder defense and Stalin may well have lost the effort.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Oldman731 on June 06, 2019, 06:14:05 AM
You need some basic history classes. Poli Sci, as well. Maybe just a conspiracy deprogramming program. Of course, you'll be claiming your post was 'facts.' :D
Some how I'm the one who doesn't use logic and resorts to Ad Hominem attacks. :rolleyes:
Hey porkchop, I'm not the one sending letters to the Soviets. I'm not the one admitting my mentors are Soviets. (Cough Nancy cough).
Stop being a Door Knob.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Arlo on June 06, 2019, 01:38:02 PM
Some how I'm the one who gets who doesn't use logic and resorts to Ad Hominem attacks. :rolleyes:
Hey porkchop, I'm not the one sending letters to the Soviets. I'm not the one admitting my mentors are Soviets. (Cough Nancy (cough).
Stop being a Door Knob.
You don't know what the word 'Soviet' even means. You certainly know nothing about Nazis. This is a fairly educated group, compared to most forums. Stop embarrassing yourself.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: DmonSlyr on June 06, 2019, 04:00:33 PM
You don't know what the word 'Soviet' even means. You certainly know nothing about Nazis. This is a fairly educated group, compared to most forums. Stop embarrassing yourself.
Lmfao :rofl
Please provide me one example of a Nazi or Fascist policy from the actual manifesto that Mussolini or Hitler wrote that relates to conservativism ideology. I'll wait.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Chris79 on June 06, 2019, 05:16:46 PM
You don't know what the word 'Soviet' even means. You certainly know nothing about Nazis. This is a fairly educated group, compared to most forums. Stop embarrassing yourself.
If you were half as smart as you think you are you might be just competent enough to pour piss out of a boot with instruction written on the heel.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Arlo on June 06, 2019, 06:39:01 PM
Please provide me one example of a Nazi or Fascist policy from the actual manifesto that Mussolini or Hitler wrote that relates to conservativism ideology. I'll wait.
You mean conservative ideology? Please provide a current conservative that does. While we may have HT's blessing to talk history I still am of the opinion that politics is still a no-no. Now, if you can't tell that you're once again inserting your brand of political crazy into a thread just because you can't seen to help it then keep on driving the crazy bus.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: DmonSlyr on June 06, 2019, 06:55:14 PM
You mean conservative ideology? Please provide a current conservative that does. While we may have HT's blessing to talk history I still am of the opinion that politics is still a no-no. Now, if you can't tell that you're once again inserting your brand of political crazy into a thread just because you can't seen to help it then keep on driving the crazy bus.
Yup, just what I thought. No answers and all BS. Just like a typical soviet propagandist.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Arlo on June 06, 2019, 07:09:32 PM
Yup, just what I thought. No answers and all BS. Just like a typical soviet propagandist.
I'll say this just one more time, son. You don't know what 'soviet' means. You never served, during or after the cold war (when asked, you dodged with a bs answer) but you like to think you are bravely championing something worthwhile here. You're not wanting answers. If you did, you would formally enroll in actual studies. You're wanting what you believe to be accepted as a reality when, well, it's not. Now, for everyone's good, especially your own, you really should stop crazy bombing threads randomly. I don't tend to block but the crazy is too much. See ya.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: DmonSlyr on June 06, 2019, 07:57:42 PM
I'll say this just one more time, son. You don't know what 'soviet' means. You never served, during or after the cold war (when asked, you dodged with a bs answer) but you like to think you are bravely championing something worthwhile here. You're not wanting answers. If you did, you would formally enroll in actual studies. You're wanting what you believe to be accepted as a reality when, well, it's not. Now, for everyone's good, especially your own, you really should stop crazy bombing threads randomly. I don't tend to block but the crazy is too much. See ya.
Snooze. More garbage from an emotional soviet who cannot debate. 2 NYPD officers and 2 republican former Congress members have been found dead this week. I don't give a single F about what you say you coward. My family already fought in 3 wars because of the cockroaches you defend. I will enjoy watching your coward cabal go down to the US military and the Anons you cannot stop or control.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Vraciu on June 06, 2019, 08:11:00 PM
They hate nationalist who are proud of their countries.
This is the only part of your post that I'll touch since I don't want banned, but...
To be fair, there isn't a single 1st world country in existence today that is not feeling the effects of what this sentence implies. Going into it any deeper here would result in a ban which would just further outline the depth of the situation. Maybe we should have made some changes post-war or even way before here in the good ole US of A.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Copprhed on June 07, 2019, 05:01:32 PM
This is why nothing pisses me off more than people calling conservatives 'Nazis'. The Nazis were in Cahoots with the Russian commies from day 1. They were all fighting for the same thing, a communist government take over for all of Europe. Then Hitler decided, meh, screw Russia, we want that too. (How nationalist of him). Stalin realized that Hitler was a crazy lunatic so he joined our efforts out of spite. Since then, the US has always been buddy buddy with the Soviets. McCarthy knew but of course the Soviets and Dems had our media already so they shamed him and made him to be the bad guy. Since then the Soviets and Nazis regrouped with each other as they realized they still had the same overall global ideals of government totalitarian control. Now we have the Russian Soviets, Dem soviets and Nazi Germany leaders like Merkel who have all taken over the EU. That's why the EU has turned against their own people to allow migrants to take over countries. They hate nationalist who are proud of their countries. Russia is mad because they no longer have control of the American people's perception thru the soviet media. Everything the Dems are doing today is reverse psychology projection, a soviet tactic. They shall get no credit from us.
All I will say about this statement is that it is the biggest load of horse manure that could be spread. Trumpanzee
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: TheBug on June 07, 2019, 07:56:53 PM
Same goes for yourself. And just to give you perspective I think he is a twit too.
Without your perspective and opinion, how'd I ever get along? (I think you should start trying to read the thread all the way through before you opine, though.) :D
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Chalenge on June 07, 2019, 11:21:11 PM
I don't know anything about DmonSlyr, but I think his lack of knowledge on this subject is understandable given our current educational system. The whole left/right definition has been muddled by the very people that wish to remain dominant over the obsequious masses. The division within our country is designed to keep people looking in the wrong direction. The Roman "Bread and Circuses" if you will. It's not really politics as much as it is an elite standing versus popularity contest. It's actually funny that it backfired on the elite this last time around.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: John Galt on June 07, 2019, 11:42:13 PM
I don't know anything about DmonSlyr, but I think his lack of knowledge on this subject is understandable given our current educational system. The whole left/right definition has been muddled by the very people that wish to remain dominant over the obsequious masses. The division within our country is designed to keep people looking in the wrong direction. The Roman "Bread and Circuses" if you will. It's not really politics as much as it is an elite standing versus popularity contest. It's actually funny that it backfired on the elite this last time around.
Dmnonslyr is a tin foil hat wearing Alex Jones supporter.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: John Galt on June 07, 2019, 11:46:23 PM
If Winston Churchill had his way both Jew hating countries would of killed eactother. That would of been great.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: MiloMorai on June 08, 2019, 05:40:43 AM
There was a few battles in Italy. Rome being liberated June 5 1944.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Karnak on June 08, 2019, 09:25:07 AM
Please provide me one example of a Nazi or Fascist policy from the actual manifesto that Mussolini or Hitler wrote that relates to conservativism ideology. I'll wait.
A few examples:
Business and government merged power. Fetishization of police and military. Legal dominance of the majority group over minority groups. Suppression of unions. Use of police force to suppress opposition movements.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Chalenge on June 08, 2019, 09:39:07 AM
Business and government merged power. Fetishization of police and military. Legal dominance of the majority group over minority groups. Suppression of unions. Use of police force to suppress opposition movements.
A perfect example of what our schools crank out today.
This video may help to get you back on track, but usually people that have been so badly misled refuse to accept that they have been lied to for so long.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: perdue3 on June 08, 2019, 09:43:15 AM
A perfect example of what our schools crank out today.
This video may help to get you back on track, but usually people that have been so badly misled refuse to accept that they have been lied to for so long.
You confused me. Is Karnak's post the example of bad schooling or the video?
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Arlo on June 08, 2019, 09:51:26 AM
You confused me. Is Karnak's post the example of bad schooling or the video?
Well, the video isn't an example of good schooling, that's for sure. :old:
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Chalenge on June 08, 2019, 09:56:03 AM
I would say the author of the video is better informed than the general public, but like I said it is very hard for most people to accept that they have been misinformed their entire lives.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: perdue3 on June 08, 2019, 10:22:33 AM
I would say the author of the video is better informed than the general public, but like I said it is very hard for most people to accept that they have been misinformed their entire lives.
So, the video is accurate?
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Arlo on June 08, 2019, 10:27:30 AM
I would say the author of the video is better informed than the general public, but like I said it is very hard for most people to accept that they have been misinformed their entire lives.
The author gives a slanted view in order to support his opinion, cherry picking and massaging facts from history for political leverage. For instance, he portrays 'bread and circuses' as a demand placed on Rome's power structure by the citizens when it was quite the opposite, being an appeasement or opiate of the masses designed to keep them entertained and distracted. The author jumped the rails right off the bat by insisting that the far right spectrum is anarchy (or complete freedom from government control). Attempting to make his point he shifts Fascism to the far left spectrum alongside Communism (which is what V believes).
A more realistic depiction of the political spectrum would be:
"Far-right politics includes but is not limited to aspects of authoritarianism, anti-communism and nativism.[3] Claims that superior people should have greater rights than inferior people are often associated with the far-right.[10] The far-right has historically favored an elitist society based on its belief in the legitimacy of the rule of a supposed superior minority over the inferior masses.[11] "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics
citing:
Hilliard, Robert L. and Michael C. Keith, Waves of Rancor: Tuning in the Radical Right (Armonk, New York: M.E. Sharpe Inc., 1999, p. 43
Oliver H. Woshinsky. Explaining Politics: Culture, Institutions, and Political Behavior. (Oxon, England; New York City, United States: Routledge, 2008) p. 154 & p. 155.
When the author talks of Oligarchies and how they come to pass he is lost in his own bias.
Now, I know your stance appears to be that of poor education in the U.S. and I might even agree that public schooling prior to University level has indeed slipped with many of those students going on to receive a 'masters of internet browsing' but the example provided via that video is just that.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Chalenge on June 08, 2019, 10:36:58 AM
Using Wikipedia to reinforce your point is invalid. Wikipedia is mostly comprised of information straight out of the text books that have constructed the lie.
What I am saying is that the educational system has been leaning left since Woodrow Wilson. It has steadily gotten worse until now. The same thing that happened to Rome is happening here. And no, your diagram buys into the same old (yawn) lie that our schools have been teaching for 100 years. This is why the country is headed hard left. Even the people promoted as "right wing" are not conservative at all. The one conservative in our last election was knocked off the stage in the first month of debates. No one in Congress today is a true conservative. Not one. This is how far afield thinking has gotten and today very few people can see that. Sure, people love their country, but are they holding firm the foundations of the Constitution? Not even close.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Arlo on June 08, 2019, 10:48:46 AM
Using Wikipedia to reinforce your point is invalid. Wikipedia is mostly comprised of information straight out of the text books that have constructed the lie.
What I am saying is that the educational system has been leaning left since Woodrow Wilson. It has steadily gotten worse until now. The same thing that happened to Rome is happening here. And no, your diagram buys into the same old (yawn) lie that our schools have been teaching for 100 years. This is why the country is headed hard left. Even the people promoted as "right wing" are not conservative at all. The one conservative in our last election was knocked off the stage in the first month of debates. No one in Congress today is a true conservative. Not one. This is how far afield thinking has gotten and today very few people can see that. Sure, people love their country, but are they holding firm the foundations of the Constitution? Not even close.
While I may agree as to the demise of true conservatism I find your lack of faith in higher education rather disappointing. I am presently attending one of the most conservative campuses in the U.S. and, by and large, the professors here present a balanced and fair education. Writing off information because it comes from a text book written by someone who spent a great deal of time learning the subject is the height of willful arrogant ignorance and I hope you can shake yourself free from that. Does this mean that I think all professors are free of bias? Of course not. For the most part even they admit such and provide their students with opposing viewpoints for them to decide. But I will still take valid and in depth text book sources over Youtube videos like the one you provided, any day.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: perdue3 on June 08, 2019, 10:50:40 AM
Using Wikipedia to reinforce your point is invalid. Wikipedia is mostly comprised of information straight out of the text books that have constructed the lie.
What I am saying is that the educational system has been leaning left since Woodrow Wilson. It has steadily gotten worse until now. The same thing that happened to Rome is happening here. And no, your diagram buys into the same old (yawn) lie that our schools have been teaching for 100 years. This is why the country is headed hard left. Even the people promoted as "right wing" are not conservative at all. The one conservative in our last election was knocked off the stage in the first month of debates. No one in Congress today is a true conservative. Not one. This is how far afield thinking has gotten and today very few people can see that. Sure, people love their country, but are they holding firm the foundations of the Constitution? Not even close.
So, you are saying the definition of the spectrum has altogether shifted? Thus, what was right pre-Wilson is now middle-right? You are not wrong, in this sense, but I cannot completely agree. Also, deeming it "worse" is not objective, that is opinionated. What exactly happened to Rome that is happening here now? I would argue that your 100 years timeline is a bit off. Anti-Intellectualism took a real hold of most of our country in the 1950s, so if anything, it should be seventy years. When you say "textbooks" are you referring to the general idea of textbooks or actual books? The federal government has not issued textbooks, that is left to the states. My state, NC, gives us the option of using the (not a, but the) textbook. Seeing as how I loathe it, I do not use it. This is the case in many states. While I admit that many teachers find it difficult to teach objectively, for the most part the young teachers today are well trained in just that. Because the professors that we had came after the period of Anti-Intellectualism, objectivity is essentially the number one lesson to be learned in the field of history and teaching arts. It has to do with tolerance, awareness, and education, all of which are necessary to be a global citizen. I digress.
I would also ask if you are involved in the public school system. If not, I am not sure how you could make such claims unless you hold surveys often in your town and surrounding towns. If you are, then it seems that you may be a part of the problem as you are teaching with opinion in mind. I also disagree slightly with Arlo's diagram. But, not nearly as much as I disagree with the video (no government = fascism????).
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Arlo on June 08, 2019, 10:58:14 AM
... I disagree with the video (no government = fascism????).
Respectfully, the video contends that no government=anarchy (which it does) but it places that status on the far right spectrum and places Fascism on the far left alongside Communism. That falls contrary to both history and political science and no matter how open-minded I try to approach that statement it just rings false (and intentionally misleading). That's why I think Youtube videos like the one Chalenge provided are irresponsible and dangerous (my opinion).
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: perdue3 on June 08, 2019, 11:12:39 AM
While I may agree as to the demise of true conservatism I find your lack of faith in higher education rather disappointing. I am presently attending one of the most conservative campuses in the U.S. and, by and large, the professors here present a balanced and fair education. Writing off information because it comes from a text book written by someone who spent a great deal of time learning the subject is the height of willful arrogant ignorance and I hope you can shake yourself free from that. Does this mean that I think all professors are free of bias? Of course not. For the most part even they admit such and provide their students with opposing viewpoints for them to decide. But I will still take valid and in depth text book sources over Youtube videos like the one you provided, any day.
Be careful with textbooks. I agree with Chalenge a bit here. I have had textbooks issued to me and seen other textbooks issued to students that were chocked full of nonsense. My previous course, actually, I had to review four different books that were assigned. Two of them I hated and I deemed them very poor pieces of scholarship even though they advanced the field. These books, Storm of Spears by Christopher Matthew being one of them, advanced the field because they add to the literature on the subject (in this case, specific fighting techniques of hoplites). However, his conclusions were all wrong (Ryan). The manner in which he arrived at most of his conclusions were baffling. He also completely ignored other options and methods, which translates to a poor methodological academic work. In my review, I slammed it for the most part, although it contributes to the field.
The problem that Chalenge is talking about has to do with ignorance. When history is taught with a bias and that bias is not relayed to the pupils, we get ignorance. Many textbooks that I grew up with championed Andrew Jackson. Whether he was good or bad, is hardly the issue and is certainly something that should not be outright stated in a textbook meant for young minds. Instead, the teacher and textbook should present the facts and allow the pupil to decide. Immanuel Kant comes to mind here. Young minds are easy to manipulate and bad textbooks and biased teachers help to skew perception. We must teach our young people to think for themselves rather than believe anything anyone tells them.
A big part of the problem is indeed the professor. It is up to the professor to choose the textbooks. Keep in mind, at the higher level of education, textbooks are no longer general histories like we have in high school. The professor will either choose a book with his/her bias, because literally everyone on the planet has bias, or specifically choose a book that is a concrete piece of scholarship in that field (i.e. Green, Yenne, Marshall, etc.). But, this discussion is about primary and secondary school textbooks. Most of these are as objective as it gets. They leave things out because of the breadth of the subject (US History, World History, Government, State History, etc.). As an example, 9th Grade World History students spend exactly zero minutes learning about Hannibal Barca. This is unfortunate because of the importance of Hannibal and Carthage to the Roman Republic's growth.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: perdue3 on June 08, 2019, 11:13:53 AM
Respectfully, the video contends that no government=anarchy (which it does) but it places that status on the far right spectrum and places Fascism on the far left alongside Communism. That falls contrary to both history and political science and no matter how open-minded I try to approach that statement it just rings false (and intentionally misleading). That's why I think Youtube videos like the one Chalenge provided are irresponsible and dangerous (my opinion).
I watched it until I saw that graphic, then decided to look at literally anything else. All I know is that I saw 0% government on the far right, immediately closed tab.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Chalenge on June 08, 2019, 11:25:23 AM
If you look for evidence that the Department of Education was designed to make the population of the United States just smart enough to do manual labor, then you will find it. This conversation is heading into the "bell curve" which is going to get it shut down, but that is where the truth will take you. The "left-right" political spectrum is the false dichotomy designed to keep the public lancing at windmills. I really hope you continue looking into this so that the veil of reality is lifted for you.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Chalenge on June 08, 2019, 11:26:38 AM
I watched it until I saw that graphic, then decided to look at literally anything else. All I know is that I saw 0% government on the far right, immediately closed tab.
There it is. The truth can be painful to look at.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: perdue3 on June 08, 2019, 11:30:37 AM
I absolutely agree with the left-right spectrum being a total waste of time to grade political beliefs. It is indeed a false dichotomy and wish it would find its peril at some point. With that being said, I do not see how you can agree that fascism means no government or that anarchy is somehow conservative.
With regard to painful truths, we just disagree. I do not think that the author was correct and you do. All good, :salute.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Arlo on June 08, 2019, 11:32:40 AM
With regard to painful truths, we just disagree. I do not think that the author was correct and you do. All good, :salute.
Seconded. :salute
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Chalenge on June 08, 2019, 11:37:38 AM
I do not believe that fascism means no government. You didn't watch the video. It's talking about government rather than the false label "Democrat," or "Republican." Our original form of government, as described in the Constitution, is a Republic. A Republic provides only that government required to provide for the common defense, regulate commerce, uphold law, etc., etc., but a Democracy was never the intention of the founders.
Fascism is an Oligarchy, because the dictator at the top is only a figurehead that without a group of supporters (usually strict militarists) would be powerless. It's all there in the video I posted. I'm really disappointed you chose to ignore it, but . . . so goes current events.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: CptTrips on June 08, 2019, 11:47:45 AM
A big part of the problem is indeed the professor. It is up to the professor to choose the textbooks. Keep in mind, at the higher level of education, textbooks are no longer general histories like we have in high school. The professor will either choose a book with his/her bias, because literally everyone on the planet has bias, or specifically choose a book that is a concrete piece of scholarship in that field (i.e. Green, Yenne, Marshall, etc.). But, this discussion is about primary and secondary school textbooks. Most of these are as objective as it gets. They leave things out because of the breadth of the subject (US History, World History, Government, State History, etc.). As an example, 9th Grade World History students spend exactly zero minutes learning about Hannibal Barca. This is unfortunate because of the importance of Hannibal and Carthage to the Roman Republic's growth.
I love ancient history. If I ever win the lottery, I'd go back to school and get a phd in ancient history for the bucket list. I love all history, but my interest does start tapering off after the fall of Byzantium.
I also have a side guilty interest in fringe ultra-ancient pre-history like Gobekli Tepe. :D My gut instinct is that humans have been far more competent much farther back than we currently give them credit for.
:cheers:
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Arlo on June 08, 2019, 11:48:05 AM
Our original form of government, as described in the Constitution, is a Republic. A Republic provides only that government required to provide for the common defense, regulate commerce, uphold law, etc., etc., but a Democracy was never the intention of the founders.
"History
In the US, the notion that a republic was a form of democracy was common from the time of its founding, and the concepts associated with representative democracy (and hence with a democratic republic) are suggested by John Adams (writing in 1784):
No determinations are carried, it is true, in a simple representative democracy, but by consent of the majority or their representatives.[6]"
Citation:
Adams, John (1851). The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States: With a Life of the Author, Notes and Illustrations. Little, Brown.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_republic
(You may want to reconsider discounting the source cited.)
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Chalenge on June 08, 2019, 11:54:05 AM
Not a democracy, Arlo. A representative democracy is not the same thing. That's the whole point.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: perdue3 on June 08, 2019, 11:54:12 AM
I do not believe that fascism means no government. You didn't watch the video. It's talking about government rather than the false label "Democrat," or "Republican." Our original form of government, as described in the Constitution, is a Republic. A Republic provides only that government required to provide for the common defense, regulate commerce, uphold law, etc., etc., but a Democracy was never the intention of the founders.
Fascism is an Oligarchy, because the dictator at the top is only a figurehead that without a group of supporters (usually strict militarists) would be powerless. It's all there in the video I posted. I'm really disappointed you chose to ignore it, but . . . so goes current events.
I don't mind watching it, it just seems like propaganda. It is Saturday and it is raining, thus I am playing video games. But in between busy streaks, I type here for a bit. I agree with everything you said regarding republics and democracies, but only partly with respect to Fascism/Oligarchy. Fascism is better defined as an ideology, whereas an oligarchy is a type of government. Fascist oligarchies can exist, but not every oligarchy is fascist and not every fascist nation is an oligarchy.
As far as defining republics and democracies, it gets very semantic. If we use the classic definitions, the US is a republic. But, if we use our founding fathers' definitions, we are a representative democracy. Jefferson and Adams both defined the government as such.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: perdue3 on June 08, 2019, 11:58:58 AM
I love ancient history. If I ever win the lottery, I'd go back to school and get a phd in ancient history for the bucket list. I love all history, but my interest does start tapering off after the fall of Byzantium.
I also have a side guilty interest in fringe ultra-ancient pre-history like Gobekli Tepe. :D My gut instinct is that humans have been far more competent much farther back than we currently give them credit for.
:cheers:
Awesome. My expertise is ancient Western warfare, specifically Alexander. I really do not get excited about history until Classical Greece (5th Century BCE), but I have had pre-history courses. I spent about three weeks on Megiddo and Kadesh a few months ago. I spent it disproving theories about chariot warfare as well as reviewing the second of the books aforementioned. It is a very interesting period, filled with mystery.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Arlo on June 08, 2019, 12:00:14 PM
Not a democracy, Arlo. A representative democracy is not the same thing. That's the whole point.
The whole point is that the founding fathers did indeed think of the republic they founded was a form of democracy, a representative democracy. What I've seen from some is the constant insistence that the U.S. is a republic and not a democracy used as a talking point to discount the Democrat party under the guise of supporting the Republican party as the true inheritor of our founding father's intent and guardian of the sacred constitution.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: CptTrips on June 08, 2019, 12:06:26 PM
Awesome. My expertise is ancient Western warfare, specifically Alexander. I really do not get excited about history until Classical Greece (5th Century BCE), but I have had pre-history courses. I spent about three weeks on Megiddo and Kadesh a few months ago. I spent it disproving theories about chariot warfare as well as reviewing the second of the books aforementioned. It is a very interesting period, filled with mystery.
I love classical Greece and Alexander. I can never pass up a good book on those, seconded closely by anything on Caesar.
:cheers:
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: perdue3 on June 08, 2019, 12:07:30 PM
The whole point is that the founding fathers did indeed think of the republic they founded was a form of democracy, a representative democracy. What I've seen from some is the constant insistence that the U.S. is a republic and not a democracy used as a talking point to discount the Democrat party under the guise of supporting the Republican party as the true inheritor of our founding father's intent and guardian of the sacred constitution.
"The Republic for which it stands" doesn't mean "the Democracy for which it stands" for a reason, but of course this argument has gone on since the founding.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Arlo on June 08, 2019, 12:34:36 PM
"The Republic for which it stands" doesn't mean "the Democracy for which it stands" for a reason, but of course this argument has gone on since the founding.
Your reason being?
http://www.ushistory.org/documents/pledge.htm
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: DmonSlyr on June 08, 2019, 01:24:42 PM
I love how how you all call me wrong and uneducated when I do more research on current events than all of you put together. We are not in a "right v left" arguement. We are in a good V evil battle. You people seriously need to wake the F up. Your countries are being invaded. most of your leaders who call themselves "left wing" are being used by Luciferians to destroy our sovereignty, our rights, and take our property.
Fascism and communism are both left wing Totalitarian governments. End of discussion. Conservative people don't want government and business to merge. Conservatives need a government that protects them from gangs and business gang corruption as well as government abuse of power. Fascism does none of this. Fascism is the business gang that puts clowns into office like Mussolini so that they can control commerce. Then inevitably, the leaders take control of the means of production and property and thus create communism like in china. It's very simple. Not a single fascist policy relates to anything conservative. Not a single one. It's a myth that your coward media has brainwashed you with so that there can be 2 sides. Thats why stalin and Hitler started on the same team.
They want your guns, they want your property, they want radicals to invade your countries and take your land. The crime has increased tremendously in Western Europe they want your men gay and weak. This is not a joke.
If you don't understand what Trump is trying to do. I'd suggest you all dig a little deeper and understand what we are really fighting, the pyramid. The all seeing eye. The cult of Hollywood, the group of 300. The skull and bones. The mob, The 93 society, the knights (cowards) of Matla. The leaders of Islam. The house of Saud. The Nazis Vrill society, And most importantly, the FED. After 1913 no real conservative republican has had a fair shake. They killed Zachary Taylor and many more whiggs from the union. Look up project paperclip. Which is still being used today with people like the Awan brothers. Don't you get it? Wake the F up. These people want a global government of domination under real fascism.
It kills that me you all you say 'i don't know crap" but in reality it's y'all who have not taken the time to understand what's really driving the evil in the world and why Trump is such a threat. Thanks to Trump we have saved more children than ever before. 3000 in saudi Arabia, 300 in California, 200 saved in GA just 3 weeks ago. Just to name a few. Chid abductions are the lowest in 30 years. You people need to get it together.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: perdue3 on June 08, 2019, 01:45:30 PM
I never mentioned Trump or the any name besides Andrew Jackson. Even then, it was just an example. Anyway, I'm going to ease out of this one. It was a good discussion. :cheers:
Knights of Malta? As in, the Knights of Rhodes and Malta which the Ottoman Empire fought in the sixteenth century? Shame Suleiman couldn't put an end to them then, pesky buggers. Although, the Knights Hospitaller in Rhodes did not fair so well. Suleiman really slapped them around at Rhodes. It was a magnificent victory.
(https://i.redd.it/s2cfc4cxihl21.png)
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: DmonSlyr on June 08, 2019, 02:22:39 PM
Please tell me again how the "right wing conservatives" are the fascist authoritarians.
However, I prefer the circular model. I can't find a .jpg or .png but if you click the link you will see a circular model. Maybe someone can figure out how to show it.
If you don't understand what Trump is trying to do. I'd suggest you all dig a little deeper and understand what we are really fighting, the pyramid. The all seeing eye. The cult of Hollywood, the group of 300. The skull and bones. The mob, The 93 society, the knights (cowards) of Matla. The leaders of Islam. The house of Saud. The Nazis Vrill society, And most importantly, the FED.
You forgot the Illuminati, Rothschilds, and the Elders of Zion.
Illuminate is the Fed, rothchilds(Zion), warburgs (Germany), ect. Pyramid eye.. check your money. This list goes on and on. I think there is a real effort now to take them down. We cannot be oblivious anymore. I really do think our military is has a plan to go after them. Theres over 100K court order indictments out there and it's not a joke.
God bless those on the front lines of this fight.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: CptTrips on June 08, 2019, 03:27:00 PM
Illuminate is the Fed, rothchilds(Zion), warburgs (Germany), ect. Pyramid eye.. check your money. This list goes on and on. I think there is a real effort now to take them down. We cannot be oblivious anymore. I really do think our military is has a plan to go after them. Theres over 100K court order indictments out there and it's not a joke.
God bless those on the front lines of this fight.
Dude. You're missing the bigger picture. They are distracting you with slight-of-hand. Classic mis-direction. Everyone on your list are just the pawns, not the hand that moves the pieces.
It's the Inter-dimensional Reptilians. They are the ones running the whole show.
Don't get fooled.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: DmonSlyr on June 08, 2019, 03:52:38 PM
Dude. You're missing the bigger picture. They are distracting you with slight-of-hand. Classic mis-direction. Everyone on your list are just the pawns, not the hand that moves the pieces.
It's the Inter-dimensional Reptilians. They are the ones running the whole show.
Don't get fooled.
Hahah legend has it 'they' are the reptilians, and there is absolutely no doubt they use dragon and snake symbolism. Theres a reason why call them "illegal aliens". ;)
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: CptTrips on June 08, 2019, 04:12:50 PM
Hahah legend has it 'they' are the reptilians, and there is absolutely no doubt they use dragon and snake symbolism. Theres a reason why call them "illegal aliens". ;)
The reason being that if we were a democracy you would not have private property rights, corporations, farms, . . .
Instead, every time the town folk got hungry they would go down to the ranch and vote the food of the ranch owner into their bellies.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what's for dinner. Representative democracy is just how we elect our leaders, but it is not the republic within which we live.
We have different topics going here. Election systems, rule of law, and forms of government (and to a smaller degree education). They are not the same. As a whole they are the American system, which is unique in the world. The demise of the American system is underway, but it can still be reversed with guidance and will power. The one side does not have the courage to protect it and the other a will to replace it instead, so as things are the will power does not exist.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Arlo on June 09, 2019, 03:49:43 AM
The reason being that if we were a democracy you would not have private property rights, corporations, farms, . . .
Instead, every time the town folk got hungry they would go down to the ranch and vote the food of the ranch owner into their bellies.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what's for dinner. Representative democracy is just how we elect our leaders, but it is not the republic within which we live.
We have different topics going here. Election systems, rule of law, and forms of government (and to a smaller degree education). They are not the same. As a whole they are the American system, which is unique in the world. The demise of the American system is underway, but it can still be reversed with guidance and will power. The one side does not have the courage to protect it and the other a will to replace it instead, so as things are the will power does not exist.
I'm sorry but the first part of your post is extremely simplified rhetoric and doesn't remotely resemble a representative democracy. When you insist that the original intent of those that designed this government was not a democracy, what-so-ever, therefore there is no threat to democracy ... only the system, then you are falling prey to a form of said extremist rhetoric. The system was designed to be a representative democracy and the threat comes from representatives no longer representing the best interests of their constituents but the wishes of big money donors. The potential change at hand involves addressing the threat to the norms when only the wealthiest and corporations begin to have influence. Our founding fathers did see that as a potential threat (there's documentation proving such). The Constitution does not need replacing. It needs support and defense. Many took such an oath, self included.
And the 'Pledge of Allegience' was not written nor designed by our national forefathers.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: FLOOB on June 09, 2019, 04:58:15 AM
Russians trying to take credit for what soviets did. What’s new.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: Chalenge on June 09, 2019, 08:11:40 AM
I'm sorry but the first part of your post is extremely simplified rhetoric and doesn't remotely resemble a representative democracy. When you insist that the original intent of those that designed this government was not a democracy, what-so-ever, therefore there is no threat to democracy ... only the system, then you are falling prey to a form of said extremist rhetoric. The system was designed to be a representative democracy and the threat comes from representatives no longer representing the best interests of their constituents but the wishes of big money donors. The potential change at hand involves addressing the threat to the norms when only the wealthiest and corporations begin to have influence. Our founding fathers did see that as a potential threat (there's documentation proving such). The Constitution does not need replacing. It needs support and defense. Many took such an oath, self included.
And the 'Pledge of Allegience' was not written nor designed by our national forefathers.
Never said it was, but you are acting blind to reality so, . . . moving on.
YouTube is now deleting videos with history of the Nazi period. Teachers are complaining that instructional materials are disappearing off of the Internet. This is not being done because it represents hate, but to prevent valid arguments that Nazis were in fact left wing. History will repeat itself.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: DmonSlyr on June 09, 2019, 10:11:20 AM
Never said it was, but you are acting blind to reality so, . . . moving on.
YouTube is now deleting videos with history of the Nazi period. Teachers are complaining that instructional materials are disappearing off of the Internet. This is not being done because it represents hate, but to prevent valid arguments that Nazis were in fact left wing. History will repeat itself.
Bingo. The same reason why they hate baby boomers. They know. The left is actually seriously trying to erase history while Google is creating fake definitions about conservatives to falsely compare us to fascist. Google is deliberately dividing the young population with false definitions calling us the oppressive bad guys, meanwhile they are (were) working with China and NK to continue to subjugate their people even further. (Remember that Google fire in China a few months ago). SHTF. Eric Schmidt working with NK and China. He stepped down from Alphabet board not long ago. Do y'all see the reverse psychology manipulation tactics they are using on the public? Our media supporting it? That's why I'm trying to get people to wake up and understand what's about to go down.
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: CptTrips on June 09, 2019, 10:19:41 AM
(https://s1-ssl.dmcdn.net/AfD0R/526x297-T3b.jpg)
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: guncrasher on June 09, 2019, 10:33:40 AM
100k indictments. man judges are busy.
one question, why haven't they been served, people arrested, sent to jail, or whatever.
oh yeah, they're waiting for the right moment. or it's all bs.
demonslayer you don't do research, you feed your paranoia, seek help dude.
semp
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: CptTrips on June 09, 2019, 10:55:38 AM
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: DmonSlyr on June 09, 2019, 10:57:10 AM
one question, why haven't they been served, people arrested, sent to jail, or whatever.
oh yeah, they're waiting for the right moment. or it's all bs.
demonslayer you don't do research, you feed your paranoia, seek help dude.
semp
Search for it yourself then if you don't believe me. Here's a couple for you that you probably didn't hear about on the news. This is bigger than you realize. You can't just round up a thousand people at once.
Search for it yourself then if you don't believe me. Here's a couple for you that you probably didn't hear about on the news. This is bigger than you realize. You can't just round up a thousand people at once.
actually I read both if those on Yahoo. but what do they have to do with the 100 indictments, oh that's right every single person charged is part of the 100k.
that's laughable, like i said you are feeding your paranoia.
semp
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: DmonSlyr on June 09, 2019, 11:30:22 AM
actually I read both if those on Yahoo. but what do they have to do with the 100 indictments, oh that's right every single person charged is part of the 100k.
that's laughable, like i said you are feeding your paranoia.
semp
@Dr. Pizza isn't laughing... :police:
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: guncrasher on June 09, 2019, 11:42:37 AM
no you claiming that every single indictment from now on is part of the 100k indictments is laughable.
and I'll give you one reason, you don't indict 100k persons with crimes unrelated to each other and prosecute a few at a time. you thinking this is laughable.
semp
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: DmonSlyr on June 09, 2019, 12:43:18 PM
no you claiming that every single indictment from now on is part of the 100k indictments is laughable.
and I'll give you one reason, you don't indict 100k persons with crimes unrelated to each other and prosecute a few at a time. you thinking this is laughable.
semp
I don't know if it is or isn't. It's probably not 100K people either. Just crimes stacking up. FBI released HRC vault 33 the other day. Her bro died yesterday. I guess we will just have to see. :D
Title: Re: Russians Mad
Post by: guncrasher on June 09, 2019, 01:05:42 PM
I don't know if it is or isn't. It's probably not 100K people either. Just crimes stacking up. FBI released HRC vault 33 the other day. Her bro died yesterday. I guess we will just have to see. :D
well may I make a suggestion, don't pass on the bs stories floating around the internet as fact about 100k indictments. actually most say it's 93k and talk about military tribunals. that's funny as hell.