General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: CptTrips on June 17, 2019, 04:51:16 PM
Title: THAT Symbol
Post by: CptTrips on June 17, 2019, 04:51:16 PM
Totally agree with Hitech's decision to not use it even though the EU has decided to change it's position on the matter in recent years. So that is not under discussion.
What I was wondering is what replacements you guys would feel comfortable with.
What are your thoughts on something like:
(https://i.imgur.com/OggDM4L.jpg)
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Devil 505 on June 17, 2019, 05:45:53 PM
Just leave the area blank if you decide to not have a swastika.
All other images placed on the vertical stab only serve to highlight that something else was there, what it really was, and what it means.
I'm all for a modeler applying a swastika to a model he builds for himself or one to be placed in an area when where can correct context of the marking can be given.
The 109 restorations you show are a bit of a gray area for me since they are kept at a museum where visitors can be given that context. But since the planes do indeed fly, omitting the swastikas is also appropriate. If they were only for static display, I'd be in favor of the swastika being applied.
When it comes to games, I fully support a developer's decision to not allow swastikas. Without context, people will assume the worst the moment they see a swastika because that symbol is still used to this day as a symbol of hate and oppression. Adequate context is difficult to provide in a single player game and near impossible in a multiplayer one, especially for casual observers.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Lusche on June 17, 2019, 05:46:45 PM
When it comes to games, I fully support a developer's decision to not allow swastikas. Without context, people will assume the worst the moment they see a swastika because that symbol is still used to this day as a symbol of hate and oppression. Adequate context is difficult to provide in a single player game and near impossible in a multiplayer one, especially for casual observers.
:aok
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Devil 505 on June 17, 2019, 06:00:54 PM
There are certain examples of German aircraft where the swastika was painted over.
Bloody silly EU rule for cry babies who need a safe space :old:
And whats even more outrageous: This rule is/was totally fictional! :furious
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: zack1234 on June 18, 2019, 10:53:24 AM
Its true it was on CNN
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: FBDragon on June 18, 2019, 11:25:19 AM
On my RC FW190A8 I airbrushed a iron cross in place of the swastika, I didn't want to give the wrong impression at any flying field I might go to. It actually lends itself perfectly to either the 190 or 109. I think it would look good on any of the luftwaffe planes in my opinion. :cheers: :salute
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Bruv119 on June 18, 2019, 03:15:39 PM
Bloody silly EU rule for cry babies who need a safe space :old:
Anyone who flys Bosch planes is a wrong un anyway
They smell of fat sausage and leather underpants.
zack have you been busy running for the tory leadership??
in other news my soft fruit has been very productive this year regardless of B It
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: toddbobe on June 19, 2019, 10:29:23 PM
I have always wondered why the brewster had it on its side in the game. BTW you cant swing a dead cat in tibet without hitting it. I was shocked to see it in restaurants, temples even manhole covers. Todd
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Devil 505 on June 19, 2019, 11:12:01 PM
I have always wondered why the brewster had it on its side in the game. BTW you cant swing a dead cat in tibet without hitting it. I was shocked to see it in restaurants, temples even manhole covers. Todd
Because the swastika used by the Finnish air force has nothing to do with Nazis. In fact, the Finns used it first. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Air_Force
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: captain1ma on June 20, 2019, 06:52:28 AM
I think all swastika's should be replaced with the confederate battle flag (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSV50THhkJVA9HPIgQ03zxB87uEWGLOVGdK7SWsf-oyX7nxkETy)
it would be "less" offensive!!
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Arlo on June 20, 2019, 07:32:38 AM
zack have you been busy running for the tory leadership??
Zack's EU stance is far too moderate for that to ever happen. Not to mention what would happen if the press ever got wind of his long standing pie habit....
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Shuffler on June 20, 2019, 02:30:00 PM
Zack's EU stance is far too moderate for that to ever happen. Not to mention what would happen if the press ever got wind of his long standing pie habit....
He has been an in betweener ever since the hatchet avvident.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Arlo on June 20, 2019, 02:31:24 PM
Was it the same hatchet accident that gave you a speech impediment? :D
:rofl Seems he dropped a lime into his blender? Turn it off and UN-PLUG before sticking your hand in to get it out :bhead Hard to type otherwise :neener:
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: DmonSlyr on June 20, 2019, 05:35:52 PM
Just leave it blank. No sense in ruining another symbols image by correlation with the Nazis. We are at a point now where the left has to erase history so that they can recreate it without people looking back and connecting it to them and their policies. The swastika is black sun Worship and should not be used anymore on anything but should be used as a learning experience thru history.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Shuffler on June 21, 2019, 08:57:07 AM
Was it the same hatchet accident that gave you a speech impediment? :D
ROTFLMAO. oops. :aok
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: 800nate800 on June 25, 2019, 09:10:56 PM
half my family has quite a strong Hebrew blood line and do i lol.. i don;t think its offensive at all on any animated reflection of its "nazi party use" . ITS WORLD WAR 2 LOL
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Arlo on June 25, 2019, 09:15:52 PM
half my family has quite a strong Hebrew blood line and do i lol.. i don;t think its offensive at all on any animated reflection of its "nazi party use" . ITS WORLD WAR 2 LOL
But it's not just about us, individually. Germany still has laws against it. How many German players are part of the AH community. How many could potentially be?
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: 800nate800 on June 25, 2019, 09:20:34 PM
But it's not just about us, individually. Germany still has laws against it. How many German players are part of the AH community. How many could potentially be?
is the game banned?
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Arlo on June 25, 2019, 09:28:40 PM
No, the nazi swastika is (unless it's specifically a museum or educational exhibit). So the question is - do we want the game banned?
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: save on October 29, 2019, 07:41:51 AM
The Geschwader Kommodore of Stab.JG53 during 1940 was Major Hans-Jurgen von Cramon-Taubadel. During the Battle of Britain, as it did throughout the second world war, JG53 flew Bf-109's. In this period of 1940 the Bf 109E-3 was the version that most pilots were given. There were two 7.92mm machine guns (MG17) mounted on the nose above the inverted Daimler Benz engine and two 20mm cannon (MGFF) mounted in the wings. While JG53 was making a reputation for itself during the Battle of Britain, information fell to Reichsmarshall Goering that Major Jurgen von Cramon-Taubadel's wife was Jewish.
Inflamed at this fact, Goering ordered the whole of Stab.JG53 to remove the 'Pik As' from their planes, and replace it with a red stripe around the engine cowling of their Bf-109's, as punishment for this "outrageous insult to the Fuhrer."
All of Stab.JG53's planes immediately were stripped of their 'Pik As' insignia, but soon afterward, the whole of Stab.JG53 stripped the swastikas off the tails of their planes in protest to this "mark of shame." During the entire Battle of Britain, Stab.JG53's planes were easily recognizable because of the red band around their engine cowlings, as well as the absence of a swastika on the tail of their Bf-109's. Soon after the battle, due, no doubt to the protest of the pilots, Stab.JG53 was allowed to paint the 'Pik As' back on their Bf-109's, and remove the red band from their cowlings.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Chris79 on October 29, 2019, 07:56:40 AM
I think all swastika's should be replaced with the confederate battle flag (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSV50THhkJVA9HPIgQ03zxB87uEWGLOVGdK7SWsf-oyX7nxkETy)
it would be "less" offensive!!
That is the Confederate naval ensign.
(https://i.ibb.co/3WF8xZJ/463-DF261-58-D9-46-D3-BE25-D5-B91106-A022.png) (https://ibb.co/0Z9W0bw) Third national flag
I have always wondered why the brewster had it on its side in the game. BTW you cant swing a dead cat in tibet without hitting it. I was shocked to see it in restaurants, temples even manhole covers. Todd
The Finnish swastika has no relation to the swastika used by Nazi Germany. The Finns used the swastika long before Nazi Germany did, a Swedish count had donated some planes to the Finns and had painted on the planes a white swastika. The symbol was part of the Swedish count's coat of arms, symbolizing luck. The Finns decided to keep it.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Ramesis on October 29, 2019, 05:10:31 PM
Imho... another attempt to rewrite history :mad:
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: save on October 29, 2019, 05:24:47 PM
Finns had the blue swastika on their planes since 1918. From wiki :
on Rosen had painted his personal good luck charm on the Thulin Typ D aircraft. This charm – a blue swastika, the ancient symbol of the sun and good luck – was adopted as the insignia of the Finnish Air Force. The white circular background was created when the Finns tried to paint over the advertisement from the Thulin air academy.[4] The swastika was officially taken into use after an order by Commander-in-Chief C. G. E. Mannerheim on 18 March 1918. The FAF changed its aircraft insignia after 1944, due to an Allied Control Commission decree[5] prohibiting Fascist organizations and it resembling the Third Reich's swastika.
Finns had the blue swastika on their planes since 1918. From wiki :
on Rosen had painted his personal good luck charm on the Thulin Typ D aircraft. This charm – a blue swastika, the ancient symbol of the sun and good luck – was adopted as the insignia of the Finnish Air Force. The white circular background was created when the Finns tried to paint over the advertisement from the Thulin air academy.[4] The swastika was officially taken into use after an order by Commander-in-Chief C. G. E. Mannerheim on 18 March 1918. The FAF changed its aircraft insignia after 1944, due to an Allied Control Commission decree[5] prohibiting Fascist organizations and it resembling the Third Reich's swastika.
They only removed it from their aircraft. The swastika is still used on FAF flags and uniforms.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: rvflyer on October 30, 2019, 12:30:07 AM
You talking about the swastika or the traitor flag?
- oldman
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: guncrasher on October 30, 2019, 01:27:55 AM
the thing about heritage is kind of funny. for example if I lived in the south and set up a large Canadian flag on a pole next to my house, that would be a nono. why cant I also celebrate my Canadian heritage?
semp
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Chris79 on October 30, 2019, 06:33:02 AM
the thing about heritage is kind of funny. for example if I lived in the south and set up a large Canadian flag on a pole next to my house, that would be a nono. why cant I also celebrate my Canadian heritage?
semp
Ever been south, lots of Canadian flags and no one cares.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Drano on October 30, 2019, 07:53:21 AM
the thing about heritage is kind of funny. for example if I lived in the south and set up a large Canadian flag on a pole next to my house, that would be a nono. why cant I also celebrate my Canadian heritage?
semp
It is improper in any state to do so without the US flag being most prevalent.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Chris79 on October 30, 2019, 11:25:04 AM
The other two symbols having nothing to so with 'heritage.'
Actually the “Saltire” has wide cultural implications especially for those of Anglo-Scots-Irish decent. To say unequivocally that the CSA battle flags lacks any semblance of heritage is ignorant at best and abjectly retarded at worst.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Arlo on October 30, 2019, 12:34:19 PM
Actually the “Saltire” has wide cultural implications especially for those of Anglo-Scots-Irish decent. To say unequivocally that the CSA battle flags lacks any semblance of heritage is ignorant at best and abjectly retarded at worst.
Confusing history for cultural heritage is rather ignorant. Whether or not you are actually mentally retarded is beside that point.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Oldman731 on October 30, 2019, 02:00:10 PM
To say unequivocally that the CSA battle flags lacks any semblance of heritage is ignorant at best and abjectly retarded at worst.
Put it down to Arlo's inartful phrasing. There's no question that the CSA battle flag reflects a certain heritage. (For that matter, so does the, um, 1943 German flag...) The issue is, what's the nature of that heritage?
- oldman
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Ramesis on October 30, 2019, 02:56:29 PM
Put it down to Arlo's inartful phrasing. There's no question that the CSA battle flag reflects a certain heritage.
Sorry, OM.
Precise phrasing. The CSA battle flag represents a time in our history when states seceded from the Union and went to war over slavery. It then represented the racial interests and cruelty of the KKK after the war. If anyone wants to pretend that it is a part of their heritage or ancestry in a manner that causes them to revere it then it says more about their character than their heritage. Keep it in museums and for historical recreations.
Same goes for flying/parading/displaying the Nazi swastika.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Arlo on October 30, 2019, 05:09:15 PM
One of my favorite movies, however, is still:
;)
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Shuffler on October 31, 2019, 05:10:48 AM
Precise phrasing. The CSA battle flag represents a time in our history when states seceded from the Union and went to war over slavery. It then represented the racial interests and cruelty of the KKK after the war. If anyone wants to pretend that it is a part of their heritage or ancestry in a manner that causes them to revere it then it says more about their character than their heritage. Keep it in museums and for historical recreations.
Same goes for flying/parading/displaying the Nazi swastika.
The democrats still exist today. Not so much in the south though. The south is still proud of their history. I have no problem with the flag even though I never fly it.
I have more issues with disrespecting our US and State flag being lowered for ever little thing. Should only be for the passage of Heads of State.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: captain1ma on October 31, 2019, 07:00:03 AM
I find it comical that people get freaked out over a "symbol". after 80 years people still get all crazy over it. while I agree we should not repeat history, we shouldn't deter accuracy. banning an object doesn't make it go away, it just makes it go underground. that doesn't mean it still isn't there.
from a historical perspective when you're fighting a plane with a swastika on it, you're fighting the pilot, not the symbol. hes going to kill you, not the symbol. while I have no feeling about taking it out of the game or leaving it in, I don't know that not having it is going to cause 30,000 germans to suddenly join aces high. I hope that would be the case, but maybe too little too late.
just my 2 cents and for the record, I'm a German.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Mister Fork on October 31, 2019, 01:43:22 PM
...just my 2 cents and for the record, I'm a German.
...and we've never held that against you... yet :neener:
If the Nazi movement died in 1945, we probably wouldn't give a rats arse about its symbol. Because it's still used today with white supremacists you cannot use it without the negative connotations still associated with the symbol, and rightly so.
My two boys are Jewish (Castilian background) and them seeing any Nazi symbol today represents a timeframe of the 1930's-1945 German political reference and the brutal regime it represented back then. Their mother and grandmother, however, would be a completely different story and their family history over the Spanish civil war and WWII would justify their positions - any use of the swastika brings back a lot of bad, brutal memories.
That said, I'm hoping that we move beyond the politically correct madness today and into a more tolerant society in the coming decades and that any symbology of the past is just that.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Arlo on October 31, 2019, 03:48:09 PM
If they weren't revered by hate groups -today- that might be a rational possibility.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: OldNitro on October 31, 2019, 06:59:30 PM
The tyranny of the whiners.. The thin skinned blue bleeders..
When I was a kid, I built many airplane models that had the Hakenkreuz included in the decals.. Nobody even thought twice about it.. War comics like Sergeant Rock, also dispayed the unshowable apparition of thin skinned hell, PROMINENTLY.. It was about history, not about who snivels the loudest..
Geez, my dad was a WW2 vet, and he had no problem buying me German airplane models with the Hakenkreuz on it.. If he was alive now, he'd laugh at us!
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Arlo on October 31, 2019, 07:08:36 PM
The tyranny of the whiners.. The thin skinned blue bleeders..
When I was a kid, I built many airplane models that had the Hakenkreuz included in the decals.. Nobody even thought twice about it.. War comics like Sergeant Rock, also dispayed the unshowable apparition of thin skinned hell, PROMINENTLY.. It was about history, not about who snivels the loudest..
Geez, my dad was a WW2 vet, and he had no problem buying me German airplane models with the Hakenkreuz on it.. If he was alive now, he'd laugh at us!
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
And how do you think he'd feel if you goose-stepped around the kitchen with a Nazi flag making the Nazi salute? You can lie about that but most all of us know you'd have a red bottom and be sniveling yourself. ;)
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: OldNitro on October 31, 2019, 07:19:01 PM
One of my fav shows when I was a kid was Combat.. With Rick Jason and Vic Morrow.. I was shootin my GI Joes, with a Red Ryder BB Gun.. Didn't have bad guy uniforms back then..
These days, the blue bleeders, can't even stand the sight of a Hakenkruez, or the they go into spasms..
It's so bad, that you can't have a decal on a model airplane! That level of Pooz is pretty pathetic! :rofl
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Devil 505 on October 31, 2019, 07:26:13 PM
The tyranny of the whiners.. The thin skinned blue bleeders..
When I was a kid, I built many airplane models that had the Hakenkreuz included in the decals.. Nobody even thought twice about it.. War comics like Sergeant Rock, also dispayed the unshowable apparition of thin skinned hell, PROMINENTLY.. It was about history, not about who snivels the loudest..
Geez, my dad was a WW2 vet, and he had no problem buying me German airplane models with the Hakenkreuz on it.. If he was alive now, he'd laugh at us!
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Great examples of the Hakenkreuz being used the right way.
Model planes with them are intended to represent the actual aircraft.
A comic book, movie, or video game with Nazi Germany as an explicit villain is also just fine because it is not only historically accurate but also it uses the viewer/player's knowledge of the evil perpetrated by the Nazis to create a sense of higher stakes and valor in fighting them. The hero fights the bad guys who are bad because... obviously.
Neither of these examples is very relevant to the use and pitfalls of allowing Nazi iconography in multiplayer video games.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Arlo on October 31, 2019, 07:28:16 PM
One of my fav shows when I was a kid was Combat.. With Rick Jason and Vic Morrow.. I was shootin my GI Joes, with a Red Ryder BB Gun.. Didn't have bad guy uniforms back then..
These days, the blue bleeders, can't even stand the sight of a Hakenkruez, or the they go into spasms..
It's so bad, that you can't have a decal on a model airplane! That level of Pooz is pretty pathetic! :rofl
Just miss the point. I doubt a single participant in this thread has spasms over decals. I doubt a single participant in this thread would faint if HT allowed it on skins. But we all know why it is the way it is. (You do, right?) So what does that leave us? The only posters crying are the ones that want it oh so bad and can't seem to get over it. Now, the aforementioned hate groups that adore those symbols would likely cry right alongside in sympathetic cause. :D
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: OldNitro on October 31, 2019, 07:51:42 PM
If we are going to have moral outrage of symbols??? How about the gold star on a red field, or the hammer a sickle???
Slaughtered more than the Nazis..
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Devil 505 on October 31, 2019, 08:11:30 PM
If we are going to have moral outrage of symbols??? How about the gold star on a red field, or the hammer a sickle???
Slaughtered more than the Nazis..
You do realize that the 6 million Jews plus all the other "undesirable" civilians murdered by the Nazis during the war was just the beginning, right?
What Stalin did would pale in comparison to what Hitler would have been able to do had he been in control of Eastern Europe and Western Russia until 1953.
Here's a little fact just to illustrate. Hitler ordered that the city of Leningrad not be taken force, but to instead cut it off from the rest of Russia by surrounding it and starving its inhabitants to death. During the 872 day siege, 1.5 million Russians were killed within the city - mostly by starvation. That is one city in less than 3 years, while the SS mostly occupied with fighting a war and beginning the industrial slaughter with the Jews. Do the math.
Stalin is nowhere near good, but easily the lesser of two evils.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Arlo on October 31, 2019, 09:01:22 PM
What Devil said. Also, neither China nor Russia place restrictions on either symbol and I doubt AHIII would be prohibited in either nation for those symbols appearing on skins in game.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: The Fugitive on October 31, 2019, 09:41:21 PM
Why do people insist on bringing up the past like it was the present? Yes what Hitler did was horrible, the "symbol" represented that horror, but today it is nothing. Black WERE slaves , but they are not now. They are treated much the same as everyone else is, with respect when deserved and with contempt when deserved just like the whites, the reds or any other color. Why must the media continue to push this crap on everyone?
A symbol is a symbol. The only power it has is what everyone gives it. Grow up people.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Volron on October 31, 2019, 09:46:10 PM
Devil: Let's say HTC decided to allow the Nazi Swastika and asked all skinners that skins be updated to be as historically accurate as possible, would you add them to yours? Mind you, he asks that they be updated to be as historically accurate as possible. It is not a requirement nor will there be removal of skins if left as is.
Personally if I saw the Nazi Swastika in-game on planes and vehicles that had them, I wouldn't care. It would be pretty obvious it is for the historical accuracy of skins. Problem is, plenty of folks out there won't see that way, so it's fairly easy to see why HTC chose the route they chose if simply for this. :aok
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Arlo on October 31, 2019, 10:58:36 PM
Why do people insist on bringing up the past like it was the present? Yes what Hitler did was horrible, the "symbol" represented that horror, but today it is nothing. Black WERE slaves , but they are not now. They are treated much the same as everyone else is, with respect when deserved and with contempt when deserved just like the whites, the reds or any other color. Why must the media continue to push this crap on everyone?
A symbol is a symbol. The only power it has is what everyone gives it. Grow up people.
Fugitive, if you really believe that you are beyond hope, man. Slavery by DEFINITION cannot include the word RESPECT.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: DmonSlyr on November 01, 2019, 08:18:17 AM
Lol that bloke with Kraut flag had been dressed by his mother :rofl
You can judge a person by his atire.
Arlo where's sandles, red ones.
Notice the brand new flags right out of the box? I wonder who sold them those flags? Looks like a contrived fake propaganda team to me trying to cause division among Americans so the left can have a 'cause' to attack and blame it on 'right wingers'.
Bill Clinton used the Confederate flag with his running mate as a poster in the south for votes.
They are still pushing propaganda today to cause strife and division so we can fight each other instead of every one pointing the finger at 'them' for their crimes.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: The Fugitive on November 01, 2019, 08:53:52 AM
Fugitive, if you really believe that you are beyond hope, man. Slavery by DEFINITION cannot include the word RESPECT.
Do you know how to read? As I said, there are NO slaves in America. People are judged on the basis of their actions. A person will be respected if they deserve to be respected and not by the color of their skin. If they are an @zz they are treated like one, again no matter the car of their skin.
The .media is the one that pushes other agendas. Respect PEOPLE, Slavery is long gone, it is only history now. Yes a terrible history, but history just the same.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Arlo on November 01, 2019, 08:57:37 AM
Do you know how to read? As I said, there are NO slaves in America. People are judged on the basis of their actions. A person will be respected if they deserve to be respected and not by the color of their skin. If they are an @zz they are treated like one, again no matter the car of their skin.
The .media is the one that pushes other agendas. Respect PEOPLE, Slavery is long gone, it is only history now. Yes a terrible history, but history just the same.
If you think there is no racial prejudice being practiced in this nation because of the abolition of slavery then you live in a bubble. Abolition was never equality.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: redcatcherb412 on November 01, 2019, 09:37:31 AM
You do realize that the 6 million Jews plus all the other "undesirable" civilians murdered by the Nazis during the war was just the beginning, right?
What Stalin did would pale in comparison to what Hitler would have been able to do had he been in control of Eastern Europe and Western Russia until 1953.
Here's a little fact just to illustrate. Hitler ordered that the city of Leningrad not be taken force, but to instead cut it off from the rest of Russia by surrounding it and starving its inhabitants to death. During the 872 day siege, 1.5 million Russians were killed within the city - mostly by starvation. That is one city in less than 3 years, while the SS mostly occupied with fighting a war and beginning the industrial slaughter with the Jews. Do the math.
Stalin is nowhere near good, but easily the lesser of two evils.
Unfortunately Stalin was not any better if you look at numbers alone:
John Heidenrich Estimate Kulaks / Forced Collectivisation 7 million Gulags 12 million Purges 1.2 million
Robert Conquest, in his book The Great Terror: A Reassessment, divides the figure another way – this time by date, rather than by category: Robert Conquest Estimate 1930-36 7 million 1937-38 3 million 1939-53 10 million
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: CptTrips on November 01, 2019, 02:03:19 PM
(https://www.dw.com/image/50528140_401.jpg)
Help. My thread has been hijacked!
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Shuffler on November 01, 2019, 03:05:08 PM
If you think there is no racial prejudice being practiced in this nation because of the abolition of slavery then you live in a bubble. Abolition was never equality.
There is... the two most racist individuals I ever knew were black men I worked with years ago.
There are racist of every color out there.
Fugi is right as far as I see it.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: The Fugitive on November 01, 2019, 03:55:15 PM
It actually doesn't matter. It's not being flown to show off an historical artifact. It's being flown to show off a hateful ideology.
..... by a small group of idiots, and here you are giving them "power" by posting it and pushing their actions just like the media does. Let it go and they have no power, no stage.
There is... the two most racist individuals I ever knew were black men I worked with years ago.
There are racist of every color out there.
Fugi is right as far as I see it.
Exactly. Im not even sure if I would call it racist, to me it looks like some people just believe they are owed something for nothing and flap their jaws to get it.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Arlo on November 01, 2019, 04:11:40 PM
There is... the two most racist individuals I ever knew were black men I worked with years ago.
There are racist of every color out there.
Fugi is right as far as I see it.
Fugi bases his argument of a level playing field on emancipation. You base it on having met two prejudiced black people. Both of you appear to deny systematic prejudice practiced in our (American) society toward black people. Still. Today. So I'm not all that surprised if you both see 'right' in each other's perspectives.
And the Hakenkreuz is still a symbol of antisemitism and terror to Jews as the Confederate battle flag is a symbol of racism and terror to black people. Again, not just because of what happened 75 or 150 years ago when the armies that flew those flags were defeated (the latter by the Union/United States and the former by the Allies which included the United States) but because of the hate groups that still revere those flags/symbols and parade them around while preaching an 'ideology' of genocide and superior racial stances.
Even besides that obvious fact, there is a law in Germany that prohibits the public display of the Hakenkreuz and it appears that Hitech Creations has chosen to respect that law.
So ... it doesn't matter what belief or viewpoint one clings to in their desire to change that via a thread that just brings it up for the umpteenth time in a somewhat foot-stomping manner in a forum of individuals whose sympathies run the gamut. There lays the actual hurt sensibilities.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Arlo on November 01, 2019, 04:12:47 PM
..... by a small group of idiots, and here you are giving them "power" by posting it and pushing their actions just like the media does. Let it go and they have no power, no stage.
As said during Germany's Wiemar Republic days.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Ramesis on November 01, 2019, 04:20:26 PM
If you think there is no racial prejudice being practiced in this nation because of the abolition of slavery then you live in a bubble. Abolition was never equality.
There has always been racial bias and there will always be!!! Not Just black/white but Jew vs Arab, Christian vs Muslim, etc. As soon as you recognize this fact, then that is one less thing to worry about Humans are humans... we are what we are and that includes what is built into us :bolt:
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Arlo on November 01, 2019, 04:41:05 PM
There has always been racial bias and there will always be!!! Not Just black/white but Jew vs Arab, Christian vs Muslim, etc. As soon as you recognize this fact, then that is one less thing to worry about Humans are humans... we are what we are and that includes what is built into us :bolt:
There's the apathy we've all grown to respect and admire. When it comes to humans treating other humans inhumanely then we who enjoy the privileges denied others should light up a cigar and wink. ;)
Just leave the area blank if you decide to not have a swastika.
All other images placed on the vertical stab only serve to highlight that something else was there, what it really was, and what it means.
I'm all for a modeler applying a swastika to a model he builds for himself or one to be placed in an area when where can correct context of the marking can be given.
The 109 restorations you show are a bit of a gray area for me since they are kept at a museum where visitors can be given that context. But since the planes do indeed fly, omitting the swastikas is also appropriate. If they were only for static display, I'd be in favor of the swastika being applied.
When it comes to games, I fully support a developer's decision to not allow swastikas. Without context, people will assume the worst the moment they see a swastika because that symbol is still used to this day as a symbol of hate and oppression. Adequate context is difficult to provide in a single player game and near impossible in a multiplayer one, especially for casual observers.
QFE (back in June) - thread stopped serving a purpose long ago. Relax. :)
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Shuffler on November 01, 2019, 07:37:05 PM
Fugi bases his argument of a level playing field on emancipation. You base it on having met two prejudiced black people. Both of you appear to deny systematic prejudice practiced in our (American) society toward black people. Still. Today. So I'm not all that surprised if you both see 'right' in each other's perspectives.
And the Hakenkreuz is still a symbol of antisemitism and terror to Jews as the Confederate battle flag is a symbol of racism and terror to black people. Again, not just because of what happened 75 or 150 years ago when the armies that flew those flags were defeated (the latter by the Union/United States and the former by the Allies which included the United States) but because of the hate groups that still revere those flags/symbols and parade them around while preaching an 'ideology' of genocide and superior racial stances.
Even besides that obvious fact, there is a law in Germany that prohibits the public display of the Hakenkreuz and it appears that Hitech Creations has chosen to respect that law.
So ... it doesn't matter what belief or viewpoint one clings to in their desire to change that via a thread that just brings it up for the umpteenth time in a somewhat foot-stomping manner in a forum of individuals whose sympathies run the gamut. There lays the actual hurt sensibilities.
Only 2 I called out. If you think that is all, simply look in the news, sports, what some call music..... all over.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Arlo on November 01, 2019, 07:51:30 PM
Only 2 I called out. If you think that is all, simply look in the news, sports, what some call music..... all over.
You could list hundreds for me and all you're doing is attempting to justify the systematic deadly prejudices practiced against them. Yeah, there are black people that hate white people. Go figure. But there's not that many white people in fear for their lives every time they leave the house and encounter a patrol car. And where the KKK is active? More-so.
You're not sharing enlightenment here.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: DmonSlyr on November 01, 2019, 08:00:11 PM
Too bad there arent more Germans who play this game. German fighters are pretty damn good in this game. Great furball planes. /With or without the symbol.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: CptTrips on November 01, 2019, 08:20:52 PM
Too bad there arent more Germans who play this game. German fighters are pretty damn good in this game. Great furball planes. /With or without the symbol.
You could list hundreds for me and all you're doing is attempting to justify the systematic deadly prejudices practiced against them. Yeah, there are black people that hate white people. Go figure. But there's not that many white people in fear for their lives every time they leave the house and encounter a patrol car. And where the KKK is active? More-so.
You're not sharing enlightenment here.
Your wrong.... most folks are not prejudiced. That is most folks of all colors. What you hear is some of one group, very vocally, claiming prejudice as an excuse for being lazy. Now there are lazy folks in all groups too.... but only one that uses that lame excuse.
Far too many successful black folks around for that excuse. I have neighbors that fit that criteria, successful and black.
If you have an issue with someone crossing the street when you come walking down the sidewalk, maybe you need to look in the mirror.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: CptTrips on November 01, 2019, 11:03:44 PM
Your wrong.... most folks are not prejudiced. That is most folks of all colors. What you hear is some of one group, very vocally, claiming prejudice as an excuse for being lazy. Now there are lazy folks in all groups too.... but only one that uses that lame excuse.
Far too many successful black folks around for that excuse. I have neighbors that fit that criteria, successful and black.
If you have an issue with someone crossing the street when you come walking down the sidewalk, maybe you need to look in the mirror.
most people are prejudiced and I say that in a content that they arent racist. yes there's some people that dont like another race of people. they are the minority but we dont really know who is and who isnt. that's the scary part. as an example, I live in a mostly hispanic neighborhood, so most of the people who are at the er are hispanic, I also lived in charlotte and it was a mostly white city, so most of the people at the er were white. but you hear constantly about how where I live most of the people at the er are illegal, just because they speak spanish.
is that racism, I dont think so, just people that think, you speak spanish, then you must be illegal. on the other hand, how do I know they arent racist. and these are people that talk crap about those who speak spanish while themselves are on welfare.
semp
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Shuffler on November 02, 2019, 01:28:03 AM
most people are prejudiced and I say that in a content that they arent racist. yes there's some people that dont like another race of people. they are the minority but we dont really know who is and who isnt. that's the scary part. as an example, I live in a mostly hispanic neighborhood, so most of the people who are at the er are hispanic, I also lived in charlotte and it was a mostly white city, so most of the people at the er were white. but you hear constantly about how where I live most of the people at the er are illegal, just because they speak spanish.
is that racism, I dont think so, just people that think, you speak spanish, then you must be illegal. on the other hand, how do I know they arent racist. and these are people that talk crap about those who speak spanish while themselves are on welfare.
semp
That is another problem all together. Illegals coming here affect everyone negatively, those here legally (actual migrants), and those born here.
Those coming illegally, born in mexico and countries south, you will hear a lot about La Raza (The Race). So they have their own race issues too. That being said, .not all come from countries south.
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Volron on November 02, 2019, 01:42:03 AM
What I find funny is that people go on and on about "race", when last I checked everyone on Earth is one thing.....
HUMAN.
Except to a Tiger or Lion. To them you are food. :P
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: guncrasher on November 02, 2019, 01:57:41 AM
That is another problem all together. Illegals coming here affect everyone negatively, those here legally (actual migrants), and those born here.
Those coming illegally, born in mexico and countries south, you will hear a lot about La Raza (The Race). So they have their own race issues too. That being said, .not all come from countries south.
Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale, A tale of a fateful trip That started from this tropic port Aboard this tiny ship.
a couple of years ago, me and a friend from the marines and his son were sitting at a bar having a drink. we were talking spanish, now spanish is my first language but I dont speak it much, neither does my friend or his son. anyway we sitting there and this couple of kids stand up and say enjoy your drink because coming this year you will get deported. my friends son looks at them and say deported where, pulls out his military id and says you dont have one of this do you?
semp
Title: Re: THAT Symbol
Post by: Shuffler on November 02, 2019, 04:25:31 AM
Your wrong.... most folks are not prejudiced. That is most folks of all colors. What you hear is some of one group, very vocally, claiming prejudice as an excuse for being lazy. Now there are lazy folks in all groups too.... but only one that uses that lame excuse.
Far too many successful black folks around for that excuse. I have neighbors that fit that criteria, successful and black.
If you have an issue with someone crossing the street when you come walking down the sidewalk, maybe you need to look in the mirror.
I'm not the one bringing up black prejudice as a false equivalency regarding systematic prejudice nor did I post that most folk are prejudiced. However, Ramesis is convinced that such behavior is just human and everyone should just accept it. Take this to his door. :D