General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Mister Fork on January 08, 2020, 03:38:35 PM
Title: Another 737 down
Post by: Mister Fork on January 08, 2020, 03:38:35 PM
A 737-800 went down just outside of Tehran last night. Looking at the video of the airplane falling (mid-way through CNN's brief) it's on fire in a big way. 1/3 of the passengers were Canadian.
This was not a mechanical issue - it was on FIRE as it was falling from a catastrophic incident. No issues raised, no emergency calls, just 'poof' - loss of data.
Guessing from the video and my own military experience, it looks like it was shot down. Some of the still images from today at the crash site I can see parts with 'small holes' - punching in...not out. Some on the tail section, some on an engine shroud, some parts look like it was hit with a shotgun at close range.
It could just be post-crash damage as I'm not a crash investigation expert. But, seeing images from the crash in Ukraine and what I've seen personally from battlefields, it raises a lot of questions. Hopefully, we'll know more soon.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Mister Fork on January 08, 2020, 03:51:09 PM
:bhead Ya many will. Since the NTSB will again not be allowed to investigate, I will treat all official reports as crap.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: FLS on January 08, 2020, 05:30:42 PM
I'm certain that was an accidental shoot down. The missiles fired at Irag were all off target to avoid reprisals while putting on a show for the home audience, they wouldn't have screwed that up on purpose.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vulcan on January 08, 2020, 05:32:20 PM
Looks like the nose of a TOR-M1, if you google 9M331 nose you'll find images in the net which show it quite clearly (and obviously the nose cone has survived the explosion).
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 08, 2020, 05:40:30 PM
The airline didn't buy the optional flare/chaff dispenser system. Boeing puts profits over people because they didn't give it away for free. :old:
that's the problem with third world pilots. a real pilot would have landed that plane.
semp
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Busher on January 08, 2020, 06:36:37 PM
Seriously Gents, with the Middle East climate as it is, does anyone really believe that we'll ever get any truth that hasn't been soured by politics.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vulcan on January 08, 2020, 06:39:20 PM
Well tbh the iranians don't need the NTSB or Boeing to investigate, they already know they shot it down.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: DmonSlyr on January 08, 2020, 06:41:04 PM
My question is. Why weren't all planes grounded? Missiles going off and the plane happens to be taking off? Just happen to hit the plane as its taking off. Seems like a high margin of error for a missile to accidentally hit a plane. Why would they risk taking off if missiles are that close to the airport?
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 08, 2020, 06:52:58 PM
My question is. Why weren't all planes grounded? Missiles going off and the plane happens to be taking off? Just happen to hit the plane as its taking off. Seems like a high margin of error for a missile to accidentally hit a plane. Why would they risk taking off if missiles are that close to the airport?
Dude it's Iran...
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: FLS on January 08, 2020, 08:41:15 PM
My question is. Why weren't all planes grounded? Missiles going off and the plane happens to be taking off? Just happen to hit the plane as its taking off. Seems like a high margin of error for a missile to accidentally hit a plane. Why would they risk taking off if missiles are that close to the airport?
I saw an unverified report that the flight was delayed 80 minutes until the last missile was fired by Iran at Iraq.
The missile that shot it down was probably part of the local air defense system. Doubt we'll ever get details of the screw up but they killed a lot of Iranians on that flight.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Mister Fork on January 09, 2020, 12:25:03 AM
I saw an unverified report that the flight was delayed 80 minutes until the last missile was fired by Iran at Iraq.
The missile that shot it down was probably part of the local air defense system. Doubt we'll ever get details of the screw up but they killed a lot of Iranians on that flight.
I saw an unverified report that the flight was delayed 80 minutes until the last missile was fired by Iran at Iraq.
The missile that shot it down was probably part of the local air defense system. Doubt we'll ever get details of the screw up but they killed a lot of Iranians on that flight.
Sadly, it was mostly Canadians as most of the Iranians listed were dual citizens (Iranian/Canadian). So 63 Canadians and 82 ‘Iranians’. We expect the number of dead Canadians to drastically rise as they sort out where they actually reside. But it really doesn’t matter. 😞
I’m sure they’ll take a page out of the Russian playbook... deny deny deny.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: 100Coogn on January 09, 2020, 01:32:10 AM
Oh my, real world pilots. Solve this mystery. We're counting on you.
(https://i.imgur.com/OHuyEvN.jpg)
Coogan
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: FLS on January 09, 2020, 06:44:58 AM
Sadly, it was mostly Canadians as most of the Iranians listed were dual citizens (Iranian/Canadian). So 63 Canadians and 82 ‘Iranians’. We expect the number of dead Canadians to drastically rise as they sort out where they actually reside. But it really doesn’t matter. 😞
I’m sure they’ll take a page out of the Russian playbook... deny deny deny.
The flight was basically Iranians, many with dual citizenship. Point being it's unlikely they were targeted on purpose by Iran.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Greebo on January 09, 2020, 07:20:55 AM
Oh my, real world pilots. Solve this mystery. We're counting on you.
(https://i.imgur.com/OHuyEvN.jpg)
Coogan
I'll see your Inch High Private Eye and raise you, well figuratively, Tom of T.H.U.M.B.
https://youtu.be/TLzJEzCdTuQ
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: DmonSlyr on January 09, 2020, 07:55:03 AM
Could you imagine if there was just one American on that plane. Why would they risk that? It was downed 3 hours after the missile attack. Were other planes taking off before it? Why that plane? Iran to Ukraine is sketch right now given the situation.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: FLS on January 09, 2020, 08:26:29 AM
If so I wonder what flight was originally scheduled to take off at that time? A US aircraft perhaps?
That would assume a deliberate shoot down. In a corrupt country incompetence is more likely than a conspiracy with no obvious payoff. There are no US flights in and out of Iran as far as I know, the recent FAA ban was for flights crossing Iranian airspace.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Mister Fork on January 09, 2020, 10:02:05 AM
We're quite certain it was an accidental shootdown. All it takes is a nervous military officer at a missile battery mistaking a bogey on his screen as an enemy bomber climbing out after a retaliatory strike on Tehran. It's happened before (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655) except this time they Iran did it to a foreign airliner.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: FLS on January 09, 2020, 10:43:13 AM
Could you imagine if there was just one American on that plane. Why would they risk that? It was downed 3 hours after the missile attack. Were other planes taking off before it? Why that plane? Iran to Ukraine is sketch right now given the situation.
Here's a conspiracy theory for you. The flight was full of Iranian spies returning to their assignments and the missile battery was remotely hacked to shoot down the aircraft with plausible deniability. :noid
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Meatwad on January 09, 2020, 11:50:52 AM
I wouldnt be surprised if they was going to say it was shot down by an american fighter as one of the excuses. But if it indeed was an accidental shootdown by their own SAM site, the crew of that site are probably already executed to make sure it cant leak out
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: guncrasher on January 09, 2020, 12:13:13 PM
Could you imagine if there was just one American on that plane. Why would they risk that? It was downed 3 hours after the missile attack. Were other planes taking off before it? Why that plane? Iran to Ukraine is sketch right now given the situation.
why that plane? you ever think that question applies to any plane? if they had shot down a different one, you would still ask that question.
if it was shot down by a missile, it was probably an accident.
semp
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: DmonSlyr on January 09, 2020, 01:02:06 PM
why that plane? you ever think that question applies to any plane? if they had shot down a different one, you would still ask that question.
if it was shot down by a missile, it was probably an accident.
semp
It would apply to any plane. However, It was going from Iran to Ukraine. To me that's very interesting given what we know about both countries. Don't know names on the flight yet.
Seems like an accident would be extremely negligent. One American on that plane could have caused Ww3 and real military action by the US. Just think about it. Those mullahs reeealllyyy didnt want that, which is why no Americans died in the save face attack.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: ACE on January 09, 2020, 01:04:36 PM
It’s probably trumps fault it was shot down.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: FLS on January 09, 2020, 01:17:59 PM
which is why no Americans died in the save face attack.
Looking at the impact photos that was pure good luck - it was nothing to do with firing to miss. Those missiles have a CER of 500m, a circle of 1km radius. Looking at the photos they could easily have hit other buildings.
Also the ayatollah has said this isn't the end of it, despite what the iranian government is saying on twitter.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: FLS on January 09, 2020, 02:35:32 PM
Iran is discontinuing overt and continuing their 40 years of covert.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: DmonSlyr on January 09, 2020, 02:46:23 PM
Looking at the impact photos that was pure good luck - it was nothing to do with firing to miss. Those missiles have a CER of 500m, a circle of 1km radius. Looking at the photos they could easily have hit other buildings.
Also the ayatollah has said this isn't the end of it, despite what the iranian government is saying on twitter.
Those bases were evacuated well before the attacks. They were more than likely talking to trump on back channels. The cabal controls Iran. (Ie, look at how the dems are acting). Now that the clown boy who was holding them hostage is dead, I expect negotiations and freedom to come soon to iran.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Oldman731 on January 09, 2020, 02:51:28 PM
MOSCOW - U.S. officials have "high confidence" that an Iranian antiaircraft missile brought down a Ukrainian passenger jet near Tehran, killing all 176 aboard, a U.S. official said.
The official, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss the matter on the record, said U.S. authorities believe the plane was hit by a SA-15 surface-to-air missile, a Russian-made system also known as Tor air defense.
Those bases were evacuated well before the attacks. They were more than likely talking to trump on back channels. The cabal controls Iran. (Ie, look at how the dems are acting). Now that the clown boy who was holding them hostage is dead, I expect negotiations and freedom to come soon to iran.
didn't know Iran had a Democrat party. wow the things you learn every day.
semp
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: davidpt40 on January 09, 2020, 03:27:53 PM
Edit: Rocco found the video I was mentioning.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Rocco on January 09, 2020, 03:32:44 PM
MOSCOW - U.S. officials have "high confidence" that an Iranian antiaircraft missile brought down a Ukrainian passenger jet near Tehran, killing all 176 aboard, a U.S. official said.
The official, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss the matter on the record, said U.S. authorities believe the plane was hit by a SA-15 surface-to-air missile, a Russian-made system also known as Tor air defense.
More information: Video of the missile (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23IranPlaneCrash&src=trend_click&f=video) impacting the jet from Twitter. Dude was just strolling out for a smoke and happened to have a video running. You can see a missile streaking forward, exploding underneath Ukranian Flight PS752.
:(
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: DmonSlyr on January 09, 2020, 03:55:42 PM
didn't know Iran had a Democrat party. wow the things you learn every day.
semp
Yup, suprising isnt it?
Let's see: we have have Lisa Page (mom was iranian) we have Peter Strzok who lived in Iran (dad was Iranian), we have Susan Rice (iranian), we have Obama funding their missiles with his unauthorized cash. Then we have John Kerry whose daughter married an Iranian national. Then have Pelosi defending Iran, Ilhan Omar defending Iran. And isn't it strange that Piglosi, Kerry, and Biden's kids working in gas companies in Ukraine.
Yeah, sure sounds like Iran has a democratic party LOL.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: ACE on January 09, 2020, 03:59:32 PM
I guess the real question now is what will be done?
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: mikeWe9a on January 09, 2020, 04:10:33 PM
My question is. Why weren't all planes grounded? Missiles going off and the plane happens to be taking off? Just happen to hit the plane as its taking off. Seems like a high margin of error for a missile to accidentally hit a plane. Why would they risk taking off if missiles are that close to the airport?
The plane wasn't hit by a rocket fired at Iraq - those missiles were long gone, as the attack took place an hour or more prior, and were likely not launched from the immediate vicinity of the airport. It appears that it was hit by an air defense missile (SA-15) that mistakenly targeted the aircraft. The hit was not some one-in-a-million coincidence between a random missile launch and the aircraft wandering into its path - it was a radar command-guided missile, so it would have been steered toward the target by the system's ground-based radar, and detonated by an onboard proximity fuse. The missile could have been accidentally fired (as in, they were tracking the target but didn't actually mean to fire the missile), or intentionally fired, presumably under the belief that the target was a hostile aircraft. Engagement times for such a system are between a couple and several seconds, so there isn't much (if any) time to recognize such a mistake and abort the engagement.
In countries such as Iran, air defense missiles are likely permanently stationed near airports, so the idea that their presence would prevent takeoff would mean that the airport would be a permanent no-go area.
Mike
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vulcan on January 09, 2020, 04:55:13 PM
The plane wasn't hit by a rocket fired at Iraq - those missiles were long gone, as the attack took place an hour or more prior, and were likely not launched from the immediate vicinity of the airport. It appears that it was hit by an air defense missile (SA-15) that mistakenly targeted the aircraft. The hit was not some one-in-a-million coincidence between a random missile launch and the aircraft wandering into its path - it was a radar command-guided missile, so it would have been steered toward the target by the system's ground-based radar, and detonated by an onboard proximity fuse. The missile could have been accidentally fired (as in, they were tracking the target but didn't actually mean to fire the missile), or intentionally fired, presumably under the belief that the target was a hostile aircraft. Engagement times for such a system are between a couple and several seconds, so there isn't much (if any) time to recognize such a mistake and abort the engagement.
In countries such as Iran, air defense missiles are likely permanently stationed near airports, so the idea that their presence would prevent takeoff would mean that the airport would be a permanent no-go area.
Mike
Interesting. TY for your educated response. It just seems bizarre to me that the planes before it were not targeted, and it seems odd that they would be targeting planes near the runway of their own airport. I just feel like there is more to it than we know at this time. Seems incredibly negligent.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: guncrasher on January 09, 2020, 05:00:39 PM
Let's see: we have have Lisa Page (mom was iranian) we have Peter Strzok who lived in Iran (dad was Iranian), we have Susan Rice (iranian), we have Obama funding their missiles with his unauthorized cash. Then we have John Kerry whose daughter married an Iranian national. Then have Pelosi defending Iran, Ilhan Omar defending Iran. And isn't it strange that Piglosi, Kerry, and Biden's kids working in gas companies in Ukraine.
Yeah, sure sounds like Iran has a democratic party LOL.
don't forget the guy at the 711, the guy that owns a McDonalds 2 blocks away, hell my bartender is part iranian, damn they're everywhere and too think they're American vets, what is the world coming to.
semp
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: MiloMorai on January 09, 2020, 05:24:46 PM
Interesting. TY for your educated response. It just seems bizarre to me that the planes before it were not targeted, and it seems odd that they would be targeting planes near the runway of their own airport. I just feel like there is more to it than we know at this time. Seems incredibly negligent.
The plane was at ~8000ft and well away from the airport. It was lost 2-3 hours after the missile attacks. Lots of time for Cheeto to OK a counter strike which he promised he would do.
The plane was also delayed an hour because of the missile attacks.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: DmonSlyr on January 09, 2020, 05:43:32 PM
don't forget the guy at the 711, the guy that owns a McDonalds 2 blocks away, hell my bartender is part iranian, damn they're everywhere and too think they're American vets, what is the world coming to.
semp
Semp,
We are talking about very high level Democrats at the top of the government chain, all defending the clown terrorist that killed Americans and has imprisoned and murdered thousands of Iranians who don't want to bend to a totalitarian regime. Certainly makes you wonder. Who did those Iranian citizen vets escape from and why are the dems defending the Iranian regime they escaped from?
The plane was at ~8000ft and well away from the airport. It was lost 2-3 hours after the missile attacks. Lots of time for Cheeto to OK a counter strike which he promised he would do.
The plane was also delayed an hour because of the missile attacks.
And what would Cheeto gain by shooting down a random plane?
The 'counter attack' was more than likely the 'earthquake' right next to a nuclear facility.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 09, 2020, 05:57:49 PM
Cheeto?
The butthurt over VSGPDJT is hilarious.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: perdue3 on January 09, 2020, 06:16:15 PM
Hilarious. The guy is a rock star. He's funnier than any late night "comedian" by far and he exposes the frauds in the media and government the whole way.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Busher on January 09, 2020, 08:07:36 PM
I respectfully suggest you gents listen to yourselves.
There are going to be countless speculators offering up what caused this crash; - A ground to air missile - an air to air missile - a bomb on board - its a 737 made by Boeing; the press says they fall down - the Russians gain Iranian oil if the USA and Iran go to war - the Iranians gain political morale if they believe they were attacked - A CIA plot - Pelosi's hair spray gummed up the engines - Trump opened his mouth and the smell spread.
Gentlemen, as I said there will be no investigation by an accredited independent body, so there will be no official cause published that is tainted by some moron's political bias. Believe what you want but please try to do so in the knowledge that a lot of politicians have skin in the game.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 09, 2020, 08:28:42 PM
Do a search. It’s a laser pointer to drive the media cats nuts.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: FLS on January 09, 2020, 10:59:10 PM
Let's not spoil things by posting political opinion. We get enough of that from the 'unbiased' media.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: DmonSlyr on January 09, 2020, 11:10:48 PM
Many Canadian (with Arab names) university PhD engineering graduates on board. :eek:
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: redcatcherb412 on January 10, 2020, 09:50:56 AM
If this actually turns out to be a 'whoopsie' by some Iranian private at the controls of a TOR mobile launcher, then how warm and fuzzy can the world feel after Iran has some mobile ICBM crew with a real nuke loaded controlled by some others as good as the TOR crew ?
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: SysError on January 10, 2020, 10:08:07 AM
There have been lots of other “whoopsies” before – (just off the top of my head) other countries that have shot down commercial planes have included: US, USSR, Israel and Russia.
As always, people who shouldn’t have been killed were killed.
It is not pleasant to think about the anguish that surviving family and friends must be going through. I hope that they can heal.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: FLS on January 10, 2020, 10:12:25 AM
If this actually turns out to be a 'whoopsie' by some Iranian private at the controls of a TOR mobile launcher, then how warm and fuzzy can the world feel after Iran has some mobile ICBM crew with a real nuke loaded controlled by some others as good as the TOR crew ?
I'm guessing even Iran would be a bit more picky about the crew for the nuke launches.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Haskell on January 10, 2020, 10:26:40 AM
My question is. Why weren't all planes grounded? Missiles going off and the plane happens to be taking off? Just happen to hit the plane as its taking off. Seems like a high margin of error for a missile to accidentally hit a plane. Why would they risk taking off if missiles are that close to the airport?
my guess is that iran and iraq are going on a big clean house on suspected spies
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: DmonSlyr on January 10, 2020, 11:05:38 AM
my guess is that iran and iraq are going on a big clean house on suspected spies
Rumor is that over 35 IRCGs connected to Solemaini(sp) have been arrested. But I haven't found much more on it.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Wolfala on January 10, 2020, 04:22:24 PM
I made a video of how it could’ve shaken down.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vulcan on January 10, 2020, 04:50:22 PM
I wonder if because the flight was delayed, the AA crew did not get updated on delayed flights and saw a transponder/aircraft they did not expect to be there?
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 10, 2020, 04:54:45 PM
I think it pure insanity to have departed under those conditions. Put me in jail if you want but I’m staying on the ground.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Busher on January 10, 2020, 05:35:55 PM
I think it pure insanity to have departed under those conditions. Put me in jail if you want but I’m staying on the ground.
I avoided trans-oceanic routes in the latter part of my career... seniority has its perks. But if I were still doing international flying, I would draw a 1000 mile border around the edges of Syria, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Fire me of you want but my airplane doesn't enter that area.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 10, 2020, 05:43:17 PM
I avoided trans-oceanic routes in the latter part of my career... seniority has its perks. But if I were still doing international flying, I would draw a 1000 mile border around the edges of Syria, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Fire me of you want but my airplane doesn't enter that area.
Yep. Same here. I avoid all those places.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 10, 2020, 07:03:35 PM
Reminds me of my last trip into Beirut about 18 months ago. My co-Captain and I saw a streak of light in the night sky along the shoreline a number of miles away to the south and we both swore it was a SAM. Really got our attention. Fatigue? What fatigue?
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: perdue3 on January 10, 2020, 07:05:26 PM
Yes kid has TDS. He likes folks who send them planes loaded with money instead.
:rofl :cheers:
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Mister Fork on January 10, 2020, 11:29:59 PM
Iran has finally admitted accidentally shooting down the airline. 138 dead Canadian + Iranian/Canadians. We hope the politics of this entire situation was worth the lives lost and families destroyed.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 10, 2020, 11:36:07 PM
Iran has finally admitted accidentally shooting down the airline. 138 dead Canadian + Iranian/Canadians. We hope the politics of this entire situation was worth the lives lost and families destroyed.
Politics?
Iran is a terrorist regime. If they're not confronted by the free world you're gonna lose a lot more than 138 lives.
POTUS did EXACTLY the right thing. This is Iran's fault alone.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: MiloMorai on January 11, 2020, 01:45:09 AM
Keep drinking that Cheeto special Kool-Aid.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Brooke on January 11, 2020, 03:59:19 AM
Yes kid has TDS. He likes folks who send them planes loaded with money instead.
$1.7 billion in pallets of cash, loaded on a jet, as a secret payoff (to get around public disapproval and perhaps, you know, "laws") to a terrorist-sponsoring country while it was under US sanctions (for among other things developing nuclear weapons) and whose motto is "death to America". What's not to like?
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 11, 2020, 07:05:05 AM
$1.7 billion in pallets of cash, loaded on a jet, as a secret payoff (to get around public disapproval and perhaps, you know, "laws") to a terrorist-sponsoring country while it was under US sanctions (for among other things developing nuclear weapons) and whose motto is "death to America". What's not to like?
Indeed.
And lots of dead and maimed people all over the place to show for it.
I'm glad Salami got the JDAM treatment. Couldn't have happened to a nicer terrorist.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: FLS on January 11, 2020, 09:09:44 AM
Iran is now admitting the shoot down and the guy in charge of air defense says he didn't order it.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: davidpt40 on January 11, 2020, 11:44:03 AM
Iran is now admitting the shoot down and the guy in charge of air defense says he didn't order it.
I'm obviously not familiar with the TOR missile system, but I do know a little bit about the Patriot missile system. When set to automatic mode, it had a bad habit of locking on to friendly aircraft. If for some reason it thought the aircraft were a cruise missile, I believe in this mode it would also fire.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: guncrasher on January 11, 2020, 12:53:16 PM
$1.7 billion in pallets of cash, loaded on a jet, as a secret payoff (to get around public disapproval and perhaps, you know, "laws") to a terrorist-sponsoring country while it was under US sanctions (for among other things developing nuclear weapons) and whose motto is "death to America". What's not to like?
there was no secret and it wasn't a payoff. 1.3 billion was their money. it had been sent to the USA back in the 70s to buy weapons which were not delivered. that the USA was gonna release the money was no secret it was all over the newspapers then. that they wanted cash was no secret either. the only secret was when and how the money was gonna need sent and that was for security reasons.
semp
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Shuffler on January 11, 2020, 02:17:16 PM
there was no secret and it wasn't a payoff. 1.3 billion was their money. it had been sent to the USA back in the 70s to buy weapons which were not delivered. that the USA was gonna release the money was no secret it was all over the newspapers then. that they wanted cash was no secret either. the only secret was when and how the money was gonna need sent and that was for security reasons.
semp
Money to support our enemy and their terrorist groups. No matter the spin.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: FLS on January 11, 2020, 02:27:21 PM
The money we held from the prior Iranian government should have gone to the victims of Iranian sponsored terrorism.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 11, 2020, 02:39:48 PM
there was no secret and it wasn't a payoff. 1.3 billion was their money. it had been sent to the USA back in the 70s to buy weapons which were not delivered. that the USA was gonna release the money was no secret it was all over the newspapers then. that they wanted cash was no secret either. the only secret was when and how the money was gonna need sent and that was for security reasons.
semp
Semantics.
They used it to kill people. I don't care if it was "theirs" already or not. It should not have been given to them.
This was done to undermine the Western World that The Won detests.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 11, 2020, 02:41:57 PM
Money to support our enemy and their terrorist groups. No matter the spin.
Yup. And it was way more than $1.3B. A lot of shady dealing was done to get them the money in order to bypass the rules in place regarding same. Typical boneheaded move. Just another inherited mess the current administration has had to clean up.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: guncrasher on January 11, 2020, 02:59:34 PM
Money to support our enemy and their terrorist groups. No matter the spin.
and we have been doing it for decades. we send our young to die in countries we shouldn't be in. now we gonna do it again. and for what? money and oil. bin ladin was killed in Pakistan, a country that we have sent billions of dollars and we still do. so who's our enemy and who's our friend?
semp
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: FLS on January 11, 2020, 03:12:03 PM
Get real. No country has friends.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Chris79 on January 11, 2020, 04:09:06 PM
With that logic we ought to have released the funds we seized from Germany and Japan Dec 8th. I’m not the political sort, but BoBo giving Iran money to secure its “legacy” was a bloody idiot move. BTW I find the current and past regimes to be both separately and equally moronic
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vulcan on January 11, 2020, 04:57:20 PM
I respectfully suggest you gents listen to yourselves.
There are going to be countless speculators offering up what caused this crash; - A ground to air missile
Gentlemen, as I said there will be no investigation by an accredited independent body, so there will be no official cause published that is tainted by some moron's political bias. Believe what you want but please try to do so in the knowledge that a lot of politicians have skin in the game.
Turns out we were right.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 11, 2020, 05:05:47 PM
and we have been doing it for decades. we send our young to die in countries we shouldn't be in. now we gonna do it again. and for what? money and oil. bin ladin was killed in Pakistan, a country that we have sent billions of dollars and we still do. so who's our enemy and who's our friend?
semp
We don't need their oil any longer. The rest of the world does, however, so it is vital to protect it lest the globe plunge into chaos.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 11, 2020, 05:08:01 PM
With that logic we ought to have released the funds we seized from Germany and Japan Dec 8th. I’m not the political sort, but BoBo giving Iran money to secure its “legacy” was a bloody idiot move. BTW I find the current and past regimes to be both separately and equally moronic
Well, you're half right. VSGPDJT is a man who understands economic leverage, military strength, and unpredictably. He is cut right out of John Boyd's Maneuver Warfare cloth and it is a beautiful thing to watch in real time.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: SysError on January 11, 2020, 05:34:02 PM
Well, you're half right. VSGPDJT is a man who understands economic leverage, military strength, and unpredictably. He is cut right out of John Boyd's Maneuver Warfare cloth and it is a beautiful thing to watch in real time.
History will show otherwise. All this guy does is win--and that's because his opponents don't take him seriously nor understand his tactics. I have watched him from day one and had I not studied Boyd et al. I would have missed it, too. But I consider myself a Maneuver Warfare addict. Throw in an MBA in Economics and I completely get what he is doing and why. I'm like Tony Romo watching a football game from the announcer's booth.
:salute
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Mister Fork on January 11, 2020, 06:39:32 PM
I don't think anyone here is happy that airliner got shot down. However, people don't want to get whacked by Iranians then they need to stay out of that place. You takes your chances you wins your prizes.
(And the handgun Trump is holding there is shown way too small. He also didn't fire anywhere near Canadians so it's ridiculous tripe. Iran did it. It's their fault. Period. It's a prime example of why they need to be dealt with once and for all before the consequences of their insanity result in 180,000 dead not 180.)
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: FLS on January 11, 2020, 07:34:12 PM
Propaganda works. Several media outlets used the term crossfire even though all the shooting was on one side in one direction.
One of the books I'm reading is Judgement in Moscow:Soviet Crimes and Western Complicity based on old KGB files. If Iran eventually restores democracy we'll get similar information.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Busher on January 11, 2020, 10:09:02 PM
How can you guys even support that panty waist? Do you not even realize that he is Castros son for crying out loud. He's flooding your country with radical Islamist and selling you out to the globalist. Do you know he's involved in uranium one with Frank Guistra. The guy is dirty corrupt and doesn't give a rats bellybutton about canadians. What a joke squeak that guy is. Trump is the bully, yet gets attacked every single day of the week by the press who want to destroy the west. Your clown leader cries like a little girl and that's who you want to represent you?
Thank god for Trump, putting these globalist cabalist in their place and exposing the satanist cowards like never before. And mocking them at the same time. We are ending these terrorist attacks once and for all by taking out sick evil people. They will not be able to stop what is coming.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Brooke on January 12, 2020, 06:44:07 AM
The payment consisted of two categories: $400 million and $1.3 billion. The letter to Congress, informing it of the $1.3 billion, was delivered to Congress after the money was airlifted to Iran. I count it as "secret" if you don't tell someone about it until after it is done. See: https://freebeacon.com/national-security/u-s-sent-iran-1-3b-cash-weeks-after-400m/
Quote
and it wasn't a payoff.
I think that it very clearly was a payoff. Here's why.
When Iran took embassy hostages, the US froze Iran's $400M in the US.
As part of the resolution of the hostage crisis, there was an international court case to decide the disposition of that $400M. It started in the 1980's and as of Jan, 2017 (more than 3 decades) still had not produced its findings. So, there was no money owed by the US at that point.
Meanwhile, groups backed by Iran blew up numerous buildings and killed hundreds of Americans. Families of the murdered sued Iran, and courts found in their favor, ordering Iran to pay compensation. As of Jan., 2017, the amount awarded was more than $400M plus interest; and the US governments or courts ordered that none of Iran's potential $400M was to be paid back until Iran had paid its mandated compensation (which it has not yet done) to the satisfaction of the US.
As a result, for 37 years -- not surprisingly -- none of that $400 million was paid back.
Then in Jan., 2017, at a time the Obama administration was trying to conclude a deal involving Iran's development of nuclear weapons and trying to get several American hostages released, the administration decided to send Iran $400 million in cash plus another $1.3 billion in cash.
The stated purpose of that payment was to "settle a decades-old claim" that Iran had on the money, with further clarification that it wasn't payment for hostage release or payment for signing any deals.
That is a ridiculous and transparent cover for several reasons. First, there was not a court order for the US to repay anything, let alone $1.7 billion. A court case that has been underway since the '80's, with no findings yet, is very far from being a court order to pay it all back in full plus interest. Such a voluntary settlement is laughable to anyone familiar with court cases and how settlements generally work. Second, even if the court made a finding for repayment, there are actual awarded claims on that money that take precedence. Third, the claims by US citizens are more than $400M plus interest. Fourth, regarding the coincidence of nuclear deal, hostage release, and $1.7 billion in cash, "The Obama administration had claimed the events were separate, but recently acknowledged the cash was used as leverage until the Americans were allowed to leave Iran." https://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-iran-payment-cash-20160907-snap-story.html
This, to me, seems quite obviously a payoff.
If names of presidents were changed but all other language stayed exactly the same, I feel highly confident that numerous media and people would have the opposite opinion.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: guncrasher on January 12, 2020, 08:40:17 AM
brook you are right Congress wasn't notified that the money was sent into after it was sent. however Congress did know that we had agreed to pay the money before the money was sent. the money was agreed upon by us and Iran because the USA thought they were about to lose the case in the Hague.
you know that court the USA and Iran agreed to back in the 80s and Iran was trying to get billions more than what we actually paid. it was a settlement out of court.
btw why isn't a big deal that Bush released 200 million to Iran years before?
like I say it was in the newspapers when the settlement was announced and the payments were sent after.
semp
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 12, 2020, 09:12:28 AM
Thankfully he's President of the United States, so what Canada thinks isn't much of a concern. People outside the USA love Presidents who sell us out for their benefit. They think POTUS iis supposed to bend over for their interests not ours.
Canada is a borderline lost cause as it is. You guys have no room to talk with that dope you have in charge.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 12, 2020, 09:14:39 AM
How can you guys even support that panty waist? Do you not even realize that he is Castros son for crying out loud. He's flooding your country with radical Islamist and selling you out to the globalist. Do you know he's involved in uranium one with Frank Guistra. The guy is dirty corrupt and doesn't give a rats bellybutton about canadians. What a joke squeak that guy is. Trump is the bully, yet gets attacked every single day of the week by the press who want to destroy the west. Your clown leader cries like a little girl and that's who you want to represent you?
Thank god for Trump, putting these globalist cabalist in their place and exposing the satanist cowards like never before. And mocking them at the same time. We are ending these terrorist attacks once and for all by taking out sick evil people. They will not be able to stop what is coming.
Justine is a joke. Canada needs its own Trump, not this girly man who likes to wear blackface and thinks it's okay.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Busher on January 12, 2020, 09:48:11 AM
The derogatory comments about Canada are interesting considering it is a capitalist democracy like the USA and had been the closest ally until the current POTUS.
I don't like or trust any politician in any country. I do believe that when reasonable people come together, more can be accomplished with gentlemanly discussion than with conflict. There is always room for war later.
It's not only arrogant, it's unconstitutional to imposed your point of view on others.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: FLS on January 12, 2020, 10:55:06 AM
The essential difference between a boy and a man is self-discipline. For example the ability to follow simple rules of conduct and behavior.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: SIM on January 12, 2020, 11:02:08 AM
Quote
It's not only arrogant, it's unconstitutional to impose your point of view on others.
Please, by all means, pass on that sentiment to all the so-called journalist, from other countries, when they attempt to pass judgement on the USA and its citizens.
I know very few people who give a damn what the rest of the world thinks.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: OldNitro on January 12, 2020, 11:17:01 AM
LOL, It's ALL the Orange Man's fault.. (sarc) Even when the Iranians admit they did it!
:rofl
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Busher on January 12, 2020, 11:20:49 AM
Please, by all means, pass on that sentiment to all the so-called journalist, from other countries, when they attempt to pass judgement on the USA and its citizens.
I know very few people who give a damn what the rest of the world thinks.
You said it yourself Sir; how could "passing judgement" ever be considered to be journalism?
I believe a "free press" was perceived to reveal truth in order that reasonable people could make their own "judgement".
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 12, 2020, 11:22:04 AM
The derogatory comments about Canada are interesting considering it is a capitalist democracy like the USA and had been the closest ally until the current POTUS.
Because you guys have been ripping us off on trade and other matters you consider us "close" allies. When someone comes in to stop the exfiltration of American wealth and production we are going to naturally not be so "close" and that's fine with me. Obozo took any and every opportunity to undermine the United States. That's partly why Canadians love him so much. Those days are over and thank God for it.
Also, we in the USA are not a democracy we are a Constitutional Republic. Canada a capitalist democracy? I guess it depends on your definition of capitalist. Trump is a real capitalist. We've strayed from it so far since Regan left that we don't even remember what it is any more. But Trump didn't forget and the numbers show it. Canada is tanking, America is ascendant. You might want to tell Justine to take notes.
Quote
I don't like or trust any politician in any country. I do believe that when reasonable people come together, more can be accomplished with gentlemanly discussion than with conflict. There is always room for war later.
Trump isn't a politician. He's a citizen-statesman, the very people our Framers intended to run the country--as opposed to generations of professional "public servants" who are concerned only with power, graft, and self-interest.
Quote
It's not only arrogant, it's unconstitutional to imposed your point of view on others.
Trump has done absolutely nothing outside his Constitutional authority. Not one thing. The previous "administration" cannot say the same.
MAGA.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 12, 2020, 11:22:46 AM
Please, by all means, pass on that sentiment to all the so-called journalist, from other countries, when they attempt to pass judgement on the USA and its citizens.
I know very few people who give a damn what the rest of the world thinks.
Could'a been that Evil Boris too! They love to hate on him almost as much!
Yep. They hate HIM because he is thinking of his country's national interests over some Euro-centric cabal.
The reality is that the globalism movement is real and dangerous. I'll never understand the compulsion to make everyone be the same in their behavior, interests, and desires. Decentralized government allows freedom of choice. Some people think that is bad and for the life of me I cannot fathom the thinking. They must have been hall monitors in gradeschool or something.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Busher on January 12, 2020, 12:34:01 PM
Because you guys have been ripping us off on trade and other matters you consider us "close" allies. When someone comes in to stop the exfiltration of American wealth and production we are going to naturally not be so "close" and that's fine with me. Obozo took any and every opportunity to undermine the United States. That's partly why Canadians love him so much. Those days are over and thank God for it.
Also, we in the USA are not a democracy we are a Constitutional Republic. Canada a capitalist democracy? I guess it depends on your definition of capitalist. Trump is a real capitalist. We've strayed from it so far since Regan left that we don't even remember what it is any more. But Trump didn't forget and the numbers show it. Canada is tanking, America is ascendant. You might want to tell Justine to take notes.
Trump isn't a politician. He's a citizen-statesman, the very people our Framers intended to run the country--as opposed to generations of professional "public servants" who are concerned only with power, graft, and self-interest.
Trump has done absolutely nothing outside his Constitutional authority. Not one thing. The previous "administration" cannot say the same.
MAGA.
It disappoints me that you read what I posted as an attack on Donald Trump or as support for Barrack Obama. I might remind you though that the North American Free Trade Agreement was a product of Ronald Reagan's administration.
It was my hope in previous posts to attempt to say that honest discussion between parties of different or even opposing points of view (be that countries or individuals) should be the goal. No one side is ever completely right.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 12, 2020, 01:14:20 PM
It disappoints me that you read what I posted as an attack on Donald Trump or as support for Barrack Obama. I might remind you though that the North American Free Trade Agreement was a product of Ronald Reagan's administration.
It was one of a number of things Reagan screwed up. I am not in lock-step with anyone. Even Trump, who I consider the most consequential President in my lifetime (at the least since Regan), has done some things--and NOT done some things--that irritate me. But 80 is better than 20.
I was not referring to you in particular, btw, but rather your comments about Canadian sentiment. Canada has had a free ride on trade for a long time at our expense. That would be fine if they weren't letting China backdoor us to put some of our major industries like steel out of business. That's not an ally or a friend, that's an opportunist.
Quote
It was my hope in previous posts to attempt to say that honest discussion between parties of different or even opposing points of view (be that countries or individuals) should be the goal. No one side is ever completely right.
I don't think anyone has said that one side is completely right. However, Trump is not an ideologue. He's a man who solves problems in a common sense fashion. The Trump Doctrine is real and it is effective. The world in general, and the United States in particular, are better off for it.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: ACE on January 12, 2020, 01:42:50 PM
I can hear a Bald eagle screeching in this thread. And I’m here for it!!!!!!
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 12, 2020, 01:58:39 PM
It was one of a number of things Reagan screwed up. I am not in lock-step with anyone. Even Trump, who I consider the most consequential President in my lifetime (at the least since Regan), has done some things--and NOT done some things--that irritate me. But 80 is better than 20.
I was not referring to you in particular, btw, but rather your comments about Canadian sentiment. Canada has had a free ride on trade for a long time at our expense. That would be fine if they weren't letting China backdoor us to put some of our major industries like steel out of business. That's not an ally or a friend, that's an opportunist.
I don't think anyone has said that one side is completely right. However, Trump is not an ideologue. He's a man who solves problems in a common sense fashion. The Trump Doctrine is real and it is effective. The world in general, and the United States in particular, are better off for it.
I respect your loyalty to POTUS, I honestly do.
But you should understand that I am completely apolitical. Forgive me, but I have never encountered a politician anywhere in the world that I could relate to or even trust. I tend to believe that a group of working stiffs could sit down and arrive at better solutions to our problems than any of the people we elect.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 12, 2020, 02:39:24 PM
But you should understand that I am completely apolitical. Forgive me, but I have never encountered a politician anywhere in the world that I could relate to or even trust. I tend to believe that a group of working stiffs could sit down and arrive at better solutions to our problems than any of the people we elect.
It goes without saying that I have the utmost respect for you. Hopefully that is still evident.
I'm a firm believer in TRUST-BUT-VERIFY. I trust him so far because he hasn't betrayed me on anything (except the stupid bump stock ban but I won't get into that).
Your last sentence is precisely why I voted for Trump. I think it was William Buckley who said we would have better government in the USA if we picked the first 435 names out of the phone book and sent them to Congress instead of the bozos we keep electing. The system in the USA was designed to be run by citizens not a professional ruling class. That Trump doesn't come from the latter is why both sides oppose him vehemently on everything, right or wrong.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: DmonSlyr on January 12, 2020, 03:08:20 PM
I love Canada and its people. But they just need to wake up to what is really going on with the political globalist agenda.
Here are 2 great researcher journalist from Canada that are doing a fantastic job. These are real journalist. No agenda but to expose the real corruption going on. People should realize that this is far deeper than what they see on the surface.
Amazing Polly: I highly recommend watching as many of her videos as you can. So much research and in depth studies of who these people are. She is great. This is what real "free press" is all about. Surprised YouTube hasn't kicked her off yet https://youtu.be/Anvf2FWTmtI
Kip Simpson: Exposing elected officials being indicted and charged all around the US. You won't see these on MSM. Notice how many there are just in the last 3 months. Perhaps the realest reason they hate Trump as much as they do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMRHC4MbP5U
Our problems could be fixed. But until the people wake up and realise they have been scammed by evil, the problems will never stop.
Who is Donald Trump: 1980 Rona Barret interview. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nAgJAxkALyc
I absolutely do think the guy is on our side, for once.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: MiloMorai on January 12, 2020, 04:23:34 PM
Trump has told almost 16,000 verifiable lies since becoming Prez. That has to more than any other 'professional' politician. He is like the boy who cried wold to many times. When there finally is a wolf no one believes. The way he and his minions are dancing around the killing of the head terrorist could be another lie.
Then there is this, (https://pics.me.me/donald-j-trump-realdonaldtrump-in-order-to-get-elected-barackobama-34922515.png)
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 12, 2020, 04:44:45 PM
Trump has told almost 16,000 verifiable lies since becoming Prez. That has to more than any other 'professional' politician. He is like the boy who cried wold to many times. When there finally is a wolf no one believes. The way he and his minions are dancing around the killing of the head terrorist could be another lie.
16,000. LOL. You couldn't even come up with ten off the top of your head. But let's just say you were correct for the sake of argument. The fact that he's delivered on just about all his promises still puts him light years ahead of any politician you can name.
A prediction is not a lie, either, btw. It's a guess. (But if we wind up fighting Iran then Obama will have started a war with them thanks to his appeasement policies...it will just have taken some time in the pipeline for it to come true. So Trump will wind up right in a way.)
He goads people into doing things the way he wants them done and has been quite successful at it. Nobody bats 1.000 but anything over .300 is pretty solid. He has lived rent-free in Obama's head for years. Wouldn't surprise me if this was reverse-psychology.
TDS is real.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Busher on January 12, 2020, 05:12:14 PM
Gents, arguing about politicians isn't going to change anything and it's liable to leave bad feelings.
It also presses on Skuzzy's Rule 14 so I am going to respectfully ask HiTech to lock it up.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 12, 2020, 05:34:48 PM
Gents, arguing about politicians isn't going to change anything and it's liable to leave bad feelings.
It also presses on Skuzzy's Rule 14 so I am going to respectfully ask HiTech to lock it up.
I agree. Maybe some ban hammer for good measure.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: guncrasher on January 12, 2020, 06:23:45 PM
this thread kind of reminds me if this guy at the legion. he was talking about how mr Rogers was the deadliest marine. when I mentioned that mr Roger's never served, he got all upset and won't talk to me.
semp
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Devil 505 on January 12, 2020, 06:35:43 PM
this thread kind of reminds me if this guy at the legion. he was talking about how mr Rogers was the deadliest marine. when I mentioned that mr Roger's never served, he got all upset and won't talk to me.
semp
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: SysError on January 12, 2020, 08:28:32 PM
this thread kind of reminds me if this guy at the legion. he was talking about how mr Rogers was the deadliest marine. when I mentioned that mr Roger's never served, he got all upset and won't talk to me.
So it appears he did register for the draft - but he was never called up. Bone spurs perhaps?? :bolt:
As a Coast Guard Vet I don't care about bone spurs or any of that nonsense. There are many ways to serve and one doesn't have to be a hired hand with a gun or grenade to do it.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Oldman731 on January 12, 2020, 08:50:59 PM
Gents, arguing about politicians isn't going to change anything and it's liable to leave bad feelings.
It also presses on Skuzzy's Rule 14 so I am going to respectfully ask HiTech to lock it up.
I think that you may have a point. This topic has certainly wandered into the “Forum Rule Violations-O-Matic” candidate area. Just waiting to see if it will broach other areas like religion, sex, drugs, commercial product placement or just go off topic with something like this:
(This is actually a somewhat interesting video; my only comment/disappointment is that they don’t discuss the lore that Titebond III has micro particles in it which supposedly helps when you are trying to glue up large veneer sheets. They may have run out of time. I do not know.)
I should say though, in case you are wondering, that I do find these types of threads interesting.
Not that anyone is going to change my mind, or that anyone is going to change their minds. It is just interesting to read the current comments of those who just a few years ago thought that the moral fabric of western democracy had come undone when someone showed up to a press conference in a tan suit.
Saluting North Korean Generals, conceding the largest conflict area in history without a fight, turning our backs on our allies and leaving them to be slaughtered, bombing our OWN bases, and…..
It doesn’t matter…
The myths that hold our society together are no longer working.
As long as my fellow Nits keep bringing me GV sups, all will be good.
<S>
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 12, 2020, 09:27:16 PM
however Congress did know that we had agreed to pay the money before the money was sent.
Congress knew that the administration intended to settle the claim. They weren't told any details, including how much, so they didn't have any chance to say, "Are you kidding?"
Quote
the money was agreed upon by us and Iran because the USA thought they were about to lose the case in the Hague.
I like you, Semp. You and I have different political opinions, but you are thoughtful in your responses, and you read articles in detail and understand them. I think that you are an intelligent guy. (And I love flying with you in scenarios. :aok)
In this case, the above is indeed what the administration said. But most people do not have any experience in court cases or settlements, and the above won't strike them as ridiculous. But for people who have some court and settlement experience, that explanation is a "dog ate my homework" level of justification because of the following.
There wasn't indication from the Hague that it was finalizing things in January, 2017 after spending 37 years on it so far. Whenever the Hague would have gotten around to finishing -- who knows when that would have been -- the finding could have been zero (or maybe less than zero, with Iran owing damages). Or it could have been some amount minus all the awarded damages with priority (meaning all the money would go to US victims, not to Iran). A likely maximum would be full amount plus interest. It seems highly unlikely that the court would go to full amount plus interest plus damages, as that is generally reserved for glaring cases of wrongdoing, whereas in this case, the money was frozen because Iran attacked the embassy, kidnapped people, and then hold them hostage, and the money was being held pending what the court ruled. I.e., the freeze had reasonable justification with precedent, and the US was complying with the international legal process for resolution -- making damages highly unlikely. Because there was glaring wrongdoing on Iran's part, it might even be that damages would have been against Iran. Also, awarding substantial damages would be a message to all terrorist regimes that there can be financial benefit to their activities. It would be so outrageous a finding that I would expect the US to appeal (if that were possible) and, if not possible or possible but not reversed, (rightly) refuse to comply at that point.
Folks who have court and settlement experience would find it laughable to volunteer a settlement at the conceivable maximum of what the court would rule, before the court case was even at its end.
Also, Semp, lets say the following happened to you. You had a father, brother, or son murdered by Iran-backed terrorists. There was a court case over it, and the court awarded you and your family $2 million to be paid by Iran. The court knew that Iran would not comply, but there was a fortunate external situation -- a bunch of Iranian money was being held in the US. So, the court (or US government) mandated that the held money could not be repaid to Iran until after Iran paid you the damages owed. However, after many years of you waiting while the money sat there, along came a US administration that paid all the money back to Iran without you getting anything. It is now highly likely that you and your family will never get any money from Iran for its involvement in the murder or your father, brother, or son.
Would you be OK with that? I'm not OK with that.
Quote
btw why isn't a big deal that Bush released 200 million to Iran years before?
Are we done with the current topic (Obama administration paying Iran $1.7 billion) and transitioning to talking about whatever it was Bush did, which is a different topic? It's OK with me if we are done with this topic. Please let me know.
Quote
like I say it was in the newspapers when the settlement was announced and the payments were sent after.
Kid: "Mom, I'm going to buy some candy." Mom: no response, perhaps expecting to see what it is before reaching the checkout line. Kid: "Oh, by the way, I already bought the candy. I bought $10,000 worth. You are OK with that, right? You didn't object when I said I was going to get some."
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: OldNitro on January 13, 2020, 08:14:31 AM
As was said elsewhere in this thread.. We have shot down a loaded Airliner before, so have others.. Airliner bumbles into a hot zone, somebody pushes a button.. Iran copped to it, so you haven't heard the criticism heaped on.. Not much USA can say, without being flaming hypocrites..
Now the Revolutionary guards are using live ammo to disperse crowds of protestors vs the regime..
Good luck to the Persian patriots.. :pray May they regain control of their own destiny!
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: ACE on January 13, 2020, 08:28:20 AM
There’s only one true way to rid that area of Evil.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: Vraciu on January 13, 2020, 08:42:50 AM
As was said elsewhere in this thread.. We have shot down a loaded Airliner before, so have others.. Airliner bumbles into a hot zone, somebody pushes a button.. Iran copped to it, so you haven't heard the criticism heaped on.. Not much USA can say, without being flaming hypocrites..
Now the Revolutionary guards are using live ammo to disperse crowds of protestors vs the regime..
Good luck to the Persian patriots.. :pray May they regain control of their own destiny!
Really?
You don't justify bad behavior with other bad behavior and I can't recall a time when the USA shot down an airliner since Vincennes in 1988--that's over thirty years ago. (No, TWA 800 conspiracists, that was not a missile in 1996.) There's no hypocrisy in condemning Iran's stupidity here.
And the reason they're not catching flak for it is because the media uses them as a foil to attack OMB. It's pretty obvious.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: FLS on January 13, 2020, 09:04:07 AM
It would be nice if Hitech didn't have to waste his time policing the forum.
Title: Re: Another 737 down
Post by: OldNitro on January 13, 2020, 09:08:42 AM