Coogan's link didn't come through for me, so here it is in another link:
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: Oldman731 on January 27, 2020, 11:26:07 AM
“A ton of rules come into play, and people don’t always want to fly that way. It takes away their ability to do whatever they want to do,” Cline said. “The trade-off is you get to live.”
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: Toad on January 27, 2020, 03:45:44 PM
Sikorsky S-76 specs that I have seen show a VNE of 155kts ~ 179mph.
Press reports (yah, I know) say "When it struck the ground, the helicopter was flying at about 184 mph and descending at a rate of more than 4,000 feet per minute, the data showed." (Fox News).
OK..let's see...exceeding VNE and descending 4000 fpm. This is not indicative of an aircraft under control; rather, it's the opposite situation. Normal commercial aviation rarely, if ever, descends at 4,000 fpm and certainly not when the cruise altitude is ~2000' over hillsides that are 1400'.
So, it's clear that Boeing killed Kobe Bryant. Oh..wait...it was Sikorsky...no, wait....Lockheed Martin because they have deeper pockets.
Or maybe, just maybe...
(https://i.imgur.com/6sp9IKX.png)
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: Shuffler on January 27, 2020, 03:56:06 PM
Pilots last transmission called 1400'. He flew for awhile after that with no more communication even though ATC was trying to contact him.
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: tmetal on January 27, 2020, 04:28:00 PM
No. Unless the investigation turns up evidence of a mechanical problem (...well...hey, it IS a helicopter...), this was one of those "we have to get there, why can't we go now?" situations. The pilot should have known to tell them to take a minivan instead (which, in LA traffic, would have guaranteed they'd miss the game), but he made a try for it. Hard to say "no" to Kobe and his family and guests.
I've been in that situation. I suspect most of us have. You have to tell yourself, well in advance, that you'll stick by the weather forecast.
- oldman
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: guncrasher on January 27, 2020, 11:12:11 PM
No. The only reason that this helicopter was pushing through those conditions was the rich guy in the back ordering the pilot (who should have said no) to do so. Too many years of being the crowd pleaser, and making the money made him think he was infallible (my assumption, sure). Take away that little orange ball and who is Kobe? Just another adulterer in my book. Sure, if he brought you hours and hours of fun watching him win you might feel different. I don't feel that way about the NBA, at all.
I have much more compassion for the loss of people that have played AH that I don't know any more than Kobe. Much.
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: mora on January 28, 2020, 07:24:58 AM
The pressure can be self imposed too. Not necessarily anything was said. Of course the client's past behavior would affect the likelihood of it happening.
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: tmetal on January 28, 2020, 07:26:34 AM
No. The only reason that this helicopter was pushing through those conditions was the rich guy in the back ordering the pilot (who should have said no) to do so. Too many years of being the crowd pleaser, and making the money made him think he was infallible (my assumption, sure). Take away that little orange ball and who is Kobe? Just another adulterer in my book. Sure, if he brought you hours and hours of fun watching him win you might feel different. I don't feel that way about the NBA, at all.
I have much more compassion for the loss of people that have played AH that I don't know any more than Kobe. Much.
You misspelled rapist
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: DmonSlyr on January 28, 2020, 08:06:56 AM
IMO, the helicopter fell out of the sky due to engine failure.
Like Toad said. The helicopter was going way too fast and was completely obliterated.
To easy to hack computers in planes these days. Homeland security has written reports about it.
Happened during Republican impeachment hearings. Q called a state funeral 2 days before (albeit was not a political figure, but damn close)
Same airport The Standard Hotel manager was killed in a helicopter crash. Not a correlation, but suspicious.
Kobe was definitely in the cabal and had children's foundations tied to China and Epstein.
The #s game rituals add up.
Predictive programming in a cartoon showed Kobe dying in a helicopter crash.
Its a tragedy for sure, especially for the kids on board, but these people who sell out all have it coming eventually.
Here's a link from Tru Reporting that has some interesting connections. https://youtu.be/R1_b-Pf3KNw
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: Busher on January 28, 2020, 09:35:55 AM
IMO, the helicopter fell out of the sky due to engine failure.
Like Toad said. The helicopter was going way too fast and was completely obliterated.
To easy to hack computers in planes these days. Homeland security has written reports about it.
Happened during Republican impeachment hearings. Q called a state funeral 2 days before (albeit was not a political figure, but damn close)
Same airport The Standard Hotel manager was killed in a helicopter crash. Not a correlation, but suspicious.
Kobe was definitely in the cabal and had children's foundations tied to China and Epstein.
The #s game rituals add up.
Predictive programming in a cartoon showed Kobe dying in a helicopter crash.
Its a tragedy for sure, especially for the kids on board, but these people who sell out all have it coming eventually.
Here's a link from Tru Reporting that has some interesting connections. https://youtu.be/R1_b-Pf3KNw
Well damn. I had no idea such knowledge and insight existed. Imagine the money to be saved now that we can shut down the NTSB. It's was just one more of those conspiracies. :bhead
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: DmonSlyr on January 28, 2020, 12:04:25 PM
Well damn. I had no idea such knowledge and insight existed. Imagine the money to be saved now that we can shut down the NTSB. It's was just one more of those conspiracies. :bhead
Celebrities and or famous people dying in plane crashes or helicopter crashes are always a conspiracy. There are way more underlying factors to the cabal and its ways than many people realize until they actually start studying it.
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: Puma44 on January 28, 2020, 02:27:03 PM
Looks like CFIT.
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: Busher on January 28, 2020, 04:47:00 PM
No idea yet Puma if the pilot was instrument rated but it sure sounds like a bad day to depart VFR and get the clearance airborne. I'm not familiar with the terrain in the Glendale area either.
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: Oldman731 on January 28, 2020, 07:43:15 PM
No idea yet Puma if the pilot was instrument rated but it sure sounds like a bad day to depart VFR and get the clearance airborne. I'm not familiar with the terrain in the Glendale area either.
Going from the link I sent up-thread, he was instrument rated; but getting a clearance through the LA Bravo can take a long time. Sounds like when he realized he couldn't keep VFR cloud distances, he asked for SVFR to get through the Bravo, given the lower restrictions on cloud clearance permitted by SVFR. When ATC told him he was too low to see on their radar, he climbed into the cloud. My guess is that, not being on instruments to that point, vertigo took over and he entered the fatal left turn. Guess we'll see, there's certainly going to be a lot of focus on this accident.
If you haven't seen it before (OK, OK, Oldman, we know you keep posting it), useful to watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7t4IR-3mSo
I post that yet again because it shows what happened to John Kennedy Jr, I suspect it shows what happened to Kobe, and I know that seeing the video at one of AOPA's seminars probably saved me and my sons from disaster, simply because I saw it before I took a flight that put me in that situation and knew to turn around and contemplate for a moment.
And one question I still have: If you're in a helicopter...why don't you just put it on the ground and think it through?
- oldman
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: guncrasher on January 29, 2020, 03:20:59 AM
Kobe's wife once admitted she was aware he had been with a hundred women. Athletes privilege = adultery when they're married.
That's true; one doesn't preclude the other and athlete's privilege also seems to equal having rape charges downgraded to sexual assault and settling out of court. So adulterer and rapist
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: Toad on January 29, 2020, 01:19:06 PM
UPT classmate of mine runs a helicopter training center. I discussed this with him.
He said it is the "classic" helicopter "Inadvertent IFR" accident. The company even has a complete Ground School/Simulator course on this exact scenario.
Initial impression was (and I know nothing about S-76 avionics, just repeating the info) that the pilot climbed quickly, losing airspeed. At some point the autopilot will kick off if the airspeed gets too low. Autopilot kicks off in IFR, pilot is not really on the controls at that moment due to thinking a/p will handle everything. Resultant loss of control in IFR while pilot is trying to catch up to the situation. Admittedly, it's all speculation at this point but the accident does fit the Inadvertent IFR profile very well.
Everyone knows how it ended though.
YMMV.
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: davidpt40 on January 29, 2020, 03:48:21 PM
Eyewitness, or more likely sound witness, said the helicopter was nearly in a hover in the clouds (moving just a few knots airspeed), and slowly plowed into the mountain.
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: Toad on January 29, 2020, 04:01:15 PM
Crash site is an area larger than a football field by most reports. Seems like it would be smaller if it crashed from a hover.
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: Mister Fork on January 29, 2020, 04:31:39 PM
No. The only reason that this helicopter was pushing through those conditions was the rich guy in the back ordering the pilot (who should have said no) to do so. Too many years of being the crowd pleaser, and making the money made him think he was infallible (my assumption, sure). Take away that little orange ball and who is Kobe? Just another adulterer in my book. Sure, if he brought you hours and hours of fun watching him win you might feel different. I don't feel that way about the NBA, at all.
I have much more compassion for the loss of people that have played AH that I don't know any more than Kobe. Much.
Kobe was a role model for an entire generation, he was known for his laser commitment to whatever he did.
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: Meatwad on January 29, 2020, 07:31:36 PM
Kobe was a role model for an entire generation, he was known for his laser commitment to whatever he did.
Generation of thugs and rapists
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: DmonSlyr on January 30, 2020, 09:08:40 AM
Interesting flight path simulation to check out here. From an actual pilot.
https://youtu.be/XSHpbGhy3Ko
Still seems bizarre to me that the pilot would lose so much alt like this so quickly givin that he knew he was in mountainous area.. wouldn't he have remained high until he got some kind of visual of the terrain?
Do these helicopters not have auto pilot preplanned routes like airplanes? Seems like he should have had a path to travel on a map.
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: Haskell on January 30, 2020, 09:58:08 AM
Interesting flight path simulation to check out here. From an actual pilot.
https://youtu.be/XSHpbGhy3Ko
Still seems bizarre to me that the pilot would lose so much alt like this so quickly givin that he knew he was in mountainous area.. wouldn't he have remained high until he got some kind of visual of the terrain?
Do these helicopters not have auto pilot preplanned routes like airplanes? Seems like he should have had a path to travel on a map.
The classic result of unintentionally going from visual conditions into instrument conditions is that the pilot gradually pulls his aircraft into an increasingly-tight left-spiral dive. Vertigo is a very strange feeling, which you really can’t duplicate except in an aircraft in actual IMC. I remember my first time, I thought I had leveled the wings, but the instruments showed I was still turning, and I thought “WTF is the matter with these gauges?”
- oldman
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: Chalenge on January 30, 2020, 12:03:06 PM
Interesting flight path simulation to check out here. From an actual pilot.
https://youtu.be/XSHpbGhy3Ko
Still seems bizarre to me that the pilot would lose so much alt like this so quickly givin that he knew he was in mountainous area.. wouldn't he have remained high until he got some kind of visual of the terrain?
Do these helicopters not have auto pilot preplanned routes like airplanes? Seems like he should have had a path to travel on a map.
it wasn't a mountainous terrain it was a hilly terrain. altitude given is above sea level. been there in that area many times.
also live about 60 miles from the beach. that morning the fog was pretty heavy all the way to my house. i remember because i wanted to go buy a beer but i stepped outside and said no way.
there's no conspiracy, no cabal, no satanic forces. just simply the pilot should not have flown. probably got disoriented and it's probably as simple ad that.
semp
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: mikeWe9a on January 30, 2020, 12:52:47 PM
Interesting flight path simulation to check out here. From an actual pilot.
https://youtu.be/XSHpbGhy3Ko
Still seems bizarre to me that the pilot would lose so much alt like this so quickly givin that he knew he was in mountainous area.. wouldn't he have remained high until he got some kind of visual of the terrain?
Do these helicopters not have auto pilot preplanned routes like airplanes? Seems like he should have had a path to travel on a map.
Going to agree with Oldman on this - he likely didn't realize that he was descending rapidly. People (even pilots) are used to using subconscious cues that tell them what is going on (leaning left, etc). These cues don't work when you are in an object moving in 3 dimensions, which is why accidentally flying into IMC (Instrument Meteorological Conditions, meaning you can't see the ground or horizon) kills people with alarming frequency. It takes some time to switch from looking outside to looking at your instruments and having your brain be able to process what you are looking at, and if you aren't trained in doing it, you are likely to crash anyways - there is a pilot training on this, titled "178 seconds to live," because pilots who are not instrument trained lose control and crash within 3 minutes on average in a simulator when losing outside visibility.
As for the route - while he may well have had a planned route, at the time he was operating under VFR and navigating by ground reference. He had been directed to follow the interstate, so he was flying a route that was not planned (vectors for traffic flow or weather avoidance are common in high traffic areas). Earlier in the flight he indicated that he was climbing to avoid a cloud layer. Again it is likely that he inadvertently lost sight of the horizon and became disoriented, likely without being aware of that fact. Unrecognized Spatial Disorientation is the most dangerous type of disorientation, since if you don't realize that you are disoriented, you aren't going to do anything to "re-orient" yourself, and are quite likely to slam your aircraft into the ground or otherwise put it into a dangerous state without realizing it. The sharp turn and descent are, as Oldman stated, a common result of such disorientation.
Mike
Edited to fix: The announcement that he was climbing to avoid clouds was several minutes before the crash, not immediately prior, as I originally posted. Still, inadvertent flight into IMC and resultant spacial disorientation is my candidate for most likely cause.
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: Puma44 on January 30, 2020, 04:05:36 PM
Sikorsky S-76 specs that I have seen show a VNE of 155kts ~ 179mph.
Press reports (yah, I know) say "When it struck the ground, the helicopter was flying at about 184 mph and descending at a rate of more than 4,000 feet per minute, the data showed." (Fox News).
OK..let's see...exceeding VNE and descending 4000 fpm. This is not indicative of an aircraft under control; rather, it's the opposite situation. Normal commercial aviation rarely, if ever, descends at 4,000 fpm and certainly not when the cruise altitude is ~2000' over hillsides that are 1400'.
So, it's clear that Boeing killed Kobe Bryant. Oh..wait...it was Sikorsky...no, wait....Lockheed Martin because they have deeper pockets.
Or maybe, just maybe...
(https://i.imgur.com/6sp9IKX.png)
Hard to believe there was a descent rate of more than 4,000 fpm, especially since he was a thousand feet or lower above terrain when he started the turn southbound. And, 184 mph. But, it’s Fox News and they always get their facts straight. (Sarcasm Alert)
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: Puma44 on January 30, 2020, 04:17:21 PM
Interesting flight path simulation to check out here. From an actual pilot.
https://youtu.be/XSHpbGhy3Ko
Still seems bizarre to me that the pilot would lose so much alt like this so quickly givin that he knew he was in mountainous area.. wouldn't he have remained high until he got some kind of visual of the terrain?
Do these helicopters not have auto pilot preplanned routes like airplanes? Seems like he should have had a path to travel on a map.
Considering the amount of IFR traffic on a typical SOCAL marine layer day, he most likely was trying to stay out of that mix, below all of it, and maintain VFR. From the ATC tapes, he was already held near Glendale for traffic, and that was probably IFR traffic flying the ILS 8 to Burbank. So, he may not have been able to fly a canned route because of other traffic and/or the weather.
Agree that spatial disorientation is a definite possibility.
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: davidpt40 on January 30, 2020, 04:54:14 PM
Crash site is an area larger than a football field by most reports. Seems like it would be smaller if it crashed from a hover.
Here's what the witness said. The ATC lost radar contact a few minutes before the crash. He said the sound stopped instantly once it impacted with the mountain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28QYy8lrww8
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: Mister Fork on January 30, 2020, 05:05:55 PM
The classic result of unintentionally going from visual conditions into instrument conditions is that the pilot gradually pulls his aircraft into an increasingly-tight left-spiral dive. Vertigo is a very strange feeling, which you really can’t duplicate except in an aircraft in actual IMC. I remember my first time, I thought I had levelled the wings, but the instruments showed I was still turning, and I thought “WTF is the matter with these gauges?”
- oldman
I remember one cadet pilot instructor always saying, "the gauges never lie, only your brain will" -
The pilot filed a VFR flight plan into an area what was ILS only. He should of have filed an IFR flight plan and just flown direct. But as arm chair experts... :old:
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: guncrasher on January 30, 2020, 05:31:25 PM
Well that is a shame, I imagine a lot of their clientele could-easily/would-have footed the bill to have an all weather charter, it's not like they were chartering a Jet Ranger. It sounds like it is unrealistic to consider using a helicopter around LA with an IFR flight plan, too busy, but just to have a proficient instrument pilot as a safety feature, (I assume these are single pilot charters,) seems like a selling point. I guess though then you get into the normalization of deviance spiral with the old, "well if it gets that bad I can always......." I wonder what the cost differential would be.
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: DmonSlyr on January 31, 2020, 10:06:17 AM
I appreciate and enjoys y'alls educated facts on the situation of spatial disorientation. Even learned something myself.
It's just strange to me that a Kobe, who was seen in helicopter crashes in cartoons, nike commercials, and movies, wouldn't have the best of the best pilots that money could buy. Given his status and the groups he was involved with. It seems like such a situation could have been avoided with proper training and experience. I still don't understand why he would drop altitude if you cannot see. He could hover, he could climb, surely the guy would have been able to see his altimeter dropping rapidly. I just don't get it. In a plane I could understand, but not in a very expensive top of the line helicopter that could hover.
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: Puma44 on January 31, 2020, 10:34:03 AM
Spatial D is a killer, regardless of it’s a plane or helicopter. The price of the aircraft has no bearing on susceptibility to spatial D.
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: pembquist on January 31, 2020, 12:07:59 PM
I appreciate and enjoys y'alls educated facts on the situation of spatial disorientation. Even learned something myself.
It's just strange to me that a Kobe, who was seen in helicopter crashes in cartoons, nike commercials, and movies, wouldn't have the best of the best pilots that money could buy. Given his status and the groups he was involved with. It seems like such a situation could have been avoided with proper training and experience. I still don't understand why he would drop altitude if you cannot see. He could hover, he could climb, surely the guy would have been able to see his altimeter dropping rapidly. I just don't get it. In a plane I could understand, but not in a very expensive top of the line helicopter that could hover.
I think it is very hard to grasp unless you have experienced it and than it is crystal clear. I don't personally know what flying a helicopter on instruments is like but I would expect that transitioning to a hover from 170 knots or whatever on instruments isn't all that easy. Beyond that this type of accident is very common, accounting for something like 10% of general aviation accidents. Transitioning inadvertently between flying with reference to the ground and flying on instruments is not the same as flying an instrument flight plan. The issue isn't a lack of instrument flying skill, but a lack of skill at making unpopular decisions without any support.
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: Chalenge on January 31, 2020, 04:35:14 PM
I'd rather be a has-been boomer, than a never-was snowflake. :aok :evil:
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: TyFoo on January 31, 2020, 05:28:42 PM
Requiring IFR trained pilots in a VFR operation doesn’t make sense if the pilots don’t spend a significant portion of their flying utilizing instrument skills to remain IFR proficient. LA is prone to good weather most of the year, which may be one reason Company Op Specs does not require it. Mandating IFR is a hazardous recipe for the very situation that occurred. If you don’t use it, you lose it.
Why mandate IFR to fly the one day or one week out of very 4,5 or 6 months that comes along if you don’t have to? Is your meeting, kids game, or vacation more important than your pre-mature funeral? I am sure anyone of those that perished would tell ya the right answer.
Vertigo is a medical condition of the inner ear. You can experience Spatial Disorientation (SD) w/ Vertigo but they are not the same thing. Spatial Disorientation is a result of taking away one or more sensory inputs such as your vision, inner ear, or kinesthetic senses. The brain will still process the partial input and output an improper result. SD is further broken down into 11 or more sensory illusions, such as Graveyard spin, graveyard spiral, the leans, acceleration, or deceleration errors etc. What you experience depends on sensory deprivation, lighting/ darkness, aircraft, head, and body movement.
Even proficient Pilots experience SD, but proficiency, and re-current training help you to recognize and work through SD.
Non-proficient pilots reactions to SD can range from not recognizing SD and either not react or react improperly, to recognizing SD and still respond improperly. Some recognize SD and freeze up - and then don't fly the plane. SD can happen very quickly or SD can be very subtle.
Title: Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash...
Post by: Busher on January 31, 2020, 05:32:03 PM
I think it is very hard to grasp unless you have experienced it and than it is crystal clear. I don't personally know what flying a helicopter on instruments is like but I would expect that transitioning to a hover from 170 knots or whatever on instruments isn't all that easy. Beyond that this type of accident is very common, accounting for something like 10% of general aviation accidents. Transitioning inadvertently between flying with reference to the ground and flying on instruments is not the same as flying an instrument flight plan. The issue isn't a lack of instrument flying skill, but a lack of skill at making unpopular decisions without any support.
I am not qualified to fly helicopters but I believe a hover would be impossible without visual reference to the ground. A hover assumes flying above a fixed point... even if the pilot could stabilize the machine at a zero airspeed constant altitude, there is no way he could know if the machine was drifting in space. Airspeed Indicators are pretty useless unless the machine is moving forward in the range of 40 knots or more.... what if the drift were backwards?