Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: SlipKnt on May 08, 2022, 08:45:47 PM
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I simply can not be quiet about this any further. If this applies to you, then it applies to you. If this doesn’t apply to you, then it doesn’t.
I’m going to go on record and say that this is my own personal opinion and in no way reflects the opinions of the CM team.
The purpose of doing FSO is to attempt to create a semi realistic battle of 3 frames in which each side is assigned a Commander in Charge to each side. That CIC is then responsible to review the objectives and issue orders (a plan of attack). Assigning aircraft and routes.
Some put in an hour or two into it while others pour hours into planning and even fly the routes to simply ensure timing.
All it takes is one person or one squad to go cowboy up, off mission, do their own thing and mess up the attack plan. Often times creating unforeseen circumstances.
The last time I was assigned as an attack lead, a squad didn’t do what was tasked. I’ve also been put up as lead for defensive strategies only to have whole squadrons go do what they want instead of patrolling assigned sectors. After pouring hours into the plan, it takes my motivation away from doing FSO. Not gonna lie, I’m on the fence about even keeping my account active. Lately I’ve only had time for FSO.
When I am responsible to be CIC I do my absolute best to ensure I get all squads in their requested rides and put forth a fun mission together.
All I ask is that every CO account for your squadron. We all know when FSO is. We all know we receive orders. At least 2 days advanced notice we all know what ride we are in and what mission we are assigned along with which squadrons we are working on.
FSO has been around for some time now. I think I’ve been participating since 2009 and I joined the CM team as a setup and bouncer CM. I love everything that FSO is and I encourage you all do your part in recruiting new members. Get more squadrons from the MA involved. Volunteer to become a CM.
I’ll just come out and say this. Not that many know my circumstances and I don’t usually advertise this. Most of you know me here in the AH community. I suffer from severe PTSD, depression, & anxiety. I even have a service dog being trained for me right now.
I don’t appreciate being PM’d in SEA1 asking what ride their squad is in or what their mission is. I am at that point that I detune text and just fly for my squadron and do my job when it is my rotation on CM duty.
I do apologize that y’all haven’t really seen much of me over the past 2 years. Ive been dealing with real life things and it should start to slow down in the fall for me finally. Wife has been in and out of the hospital, oldest son came home from his first deployment in the US Marines and my youngest is shipping off to Temple University on a full scholarship this summer. On top of all that I do a ton of volunteer work for veterans thru Combat Veterans Motorcycle Association.
That said, I’m trying really really REALLY hard to keep interest and contribute to keeping FSO fun. All I ask from you all is that you do your part as a squad CO, XO, Ops, etc. Make sure your squadron knows what they are doing every Friday. If you are assigned CIC, review the objectives and get the orders out no later than Wednesday night. And when it comes game time, carry out your part of the assignment.
Nothing is more discouraging to me in FSO than putting in the time to develop a plan and seeing squads not go by the plan. If this is how we continue to conduct ourselves in FSO, I will simply walk away from it. I have other things I can be doing than flying routes for timing and putting orders out.
Again, this in no way represents the opinions of the CM staff. This is my personal opinion and current struggle to get remotivated in FSO.
:rock :salute
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Good luck to you in all things, including this. Perhaps you might consider taking the weight off your shoulders for a few FSOs and just be a participating pilot. You might also consider some major delegating when you are CiC. In any case, I completely sympathize. I've been thinking about returning to the flock and flying events again. I have some physical issues cropping up, as well (vision, mainly - when it comes to AH). If I end up in a 'command' position somewhere up or down the chain I may likely find myself not flying but managing (or trying to).
Here's to things be better. :salute :cheers:
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You rock, SlipKnt. Couldn't agree more.
:salute
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'Some put in an hour or two into it while others pour hours into planning and even fly the routes to simply ensure timing'
I put 30 minutes into making orders, 35 if i attach a map. I find it crazy that you guys are flying routes and putting that much time into it. And i can say that because every time i am CiC the side i am on at the time does really well. That's because i assign the rides and leave the game plan up to the squad leaders. As unconventional as that is it works.
People even got two accounts using one account as a scout plane.
This game has changed a lot since i have been gone and the people in charge have changed as well.
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"This game has changed a lot since i have been gone and the people in charge have changed as well."
You are correct. It has changed. The CM Staff has become too lenient. It used to be, the squads that didn't want to play in the sandbox with the others were banned from participation if they displayed a pattern of not following orders. They would also get muted or banned for language. I also recall times a squad would get banned for behavior on the BBS. Over the past 4 years, the CM Staff has attempted to cater to the masses because we felt the numbers were too low. We even allowed for walk-ons to participate when it used to be a hard "NO" back in the day.
We get out of FSO what we pour into it. Sometimes, the lazy way works. Simply assigning targets and defenses and planes is all you need. I have done that in the past and it does work sometimes. Some people prefer to lay out the mission if multiple squads are involved. The amount of time doesn't matter until a squad doesn't go with the plan and decides to do their own thing.
Certain scenarios do require a coordinated attack (eg. if one side is attacking and one is defending). Sometimes there is a need to develop a strategy utilizing tactics and timing.
That isn't my point though. My point is that when a CIC sends orders, it is our duty as FSO participants, to follow the orders. We all take turns in the CIC seat. The CIC is "in charge". The CM Staff are merely referees for the event.
Simply put, if we can't follow orders, perhaps we shouldn't participate in the event. The format of FSO hasn't changed since I started participating in 2009. Sides are assigned. CICs are identified. Objectives are sent. CICs develop the orders and send them by Wednesday night to their respective sides (gives squadrons the ability to practice / rehearse their role or train in advance if they choose to). Some squads are more serious than others with regard to FSO. Personally, I don't care if a squad is serious or just clowning and having a good time. It's what we do. What I do care about is that each squad has the consideration to perform the task they are assigned. Whether it is a detailed plan or not. We receive the orders early enough in the week that all squads should have enough time to finalize the plans. If you disagree with the plans, you take it up with the CIC on Thursday and even early on Friday. But not at launch or enroute to target.
Understand where I am coming from. We're friends. In fact, we're all friends here. This is a conversation I feel needs to be discussed though. For the sake of the future of FSO.
:cheers:
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JG54 puts in a lot of time and Effort into orders as well. nothing frosts my arse more then someone disregarding them and "doing their own thing". it total fouls up my plans, and when things dont play out, it gives me that much more reason not to participate. maybe i take it too seriously, but i wish people would atleast respect the plans ALL CiC's put together.
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Good luck to you in all things, including this. Perhaps you might consider taking the weight off your shoulders for a few FSOs and just be a participating pilot. You might also consider some major delegating when you are CiC. In any case, I completely sympathize. I've been thinking about returning to the flock and flying events again. I have some physical issues cropping up, as well (vision, mainly - when it comes to AH). If I end up in a 'command' position somewhere up or down the chain I may likely find myself not flying but managing (or trying to).
Here's to things be better. :salute :cheers:
Thank you, Arlo. That means more to me than you know. 🤘
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:cheers:
Slip! Well stated my friend.
But just to summarize.
1) Squad COs review the orders before entering the SEA.
2) Get your squad in colors.
3) Sound off to the CiC that you are ready and "Ready" to follow the communicated orders.
4) Prior to one hour before fields open if you do not understand or like the orders there is an opportunity to communicate and reach an understanding. After that time, keep your peace and follow the guy in front of you. Please DO NOT disrupt the CiCs briefing or the mission as a whole.
5) If there is a complaint. Complain after the frame is over.
As an FSO squad CO you are bound and tied by duty to the rules that you read to sign your team up. The CO keeps his squad in line and having fun. The CO does not disrupt play or cause the CiC any trouble. He also executes the orders that he has been given to the best of his ability and as close to their original intent as possible.
There will be infractions of rules, by just about everyone, hopefully small. But they will be dealt with by the Host CM and the bouncer. Then we get back to having fun.
Thanks again Slip. :salute
Salute to FSO community. Keep great tradition alive.
:salute
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'You are correct. It has changed. The CM Staff has become too lenient. It used to be, the squads that didn't want to play in the sandbox with the others were banned from participation if they displayed a pattern of not following orders. They would also get muted or banned for language. I also recall times a squad would get banned for behavior on the BBS. Over the past 4 years, the CM Staff has attempted to cater to the masses because we felt the numbers were too low. We even allowed for walk-ons to participate when it used to be a hard "NO" back in the day '
I don't know if you have noticed but the numbers in this game we all love are dropping. I have had numerous people join my group over the past year to try out FSO. Some have stayed and some not. I am still trying to get more people in FSO from the MAIN ARENA but it's not as easy as one might think.
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JG54 puts in a lot of time and Effort into orders as well. nothing frosts my arse more then someone disregarding them and "doing their own thing". it total fouls up my plans, and when things dont play out, it gives me that much more reason not to participate. maybe i take it too seriously, but i wish people would atleast respect the plans ALL CiC's put together.
Agreed. There is plenty of "fog" inherent with our battles but it is frustrating when this adds to the "fog". Not sure of the reasons but there are probably many. Some of the best FSO frames are when the squad executes successfully on a mission with long odds which required teamwork with other squads.
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'Some put in an hour or two into it while others pour hours into planning and even fly the routes to simply ensure timing'
I put 30 minutes into making orders, 35 if i attach a map. I find it crazy that you guys are flying routes and putting that much time into it. And i can say that because every time i am CiC the side i am on at the time does really well. That's because i assign the rides and leave the game plan up to the squad leaders. As unconventional as that is it works.
And your claiming credit for any victorious frames? What you do as a CiC is very minimal and next to nothing. FSO is different from the MA, in that it requires strategic planning to accomplish the goal, and you leave all that heavy lifting to the squadrons. IMO it the height of laziness in a CiC.
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“I don't know if you have noticed but the numbers in this game we all love are dropping. I have had numerous people join my group over the past year to try out FSO. Some have stayed and some not. I am still trying to get more people in FSO from the MAIN ARENA but it's not as easy as one might think.”
Agreed! It isn’t easy. And personally, I truly appreciate your effort in building a formidable FSO squad. Keep at it!!!
:cheers:
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, in that it requires strategic planning to accomplish the goal, and you leave all that heavy lifting to the squadrons. IMO it the height of laziness in a CiC.
You know what they say about opinions....
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And your claiming credit for any victorious frames? What you do as a CiC is very minimal and next to nothing. FSO is different from the MA, in that it requires strategic planning to accomplish the goal, and you leave all that heavy lifting to the squadrons. IMO it the height of laziness in a CiC.
What i do keeps the drama from happening as described by the original post stated. There is no drama.
There is an objective and however that objective is completed is not as important. We all have the same goals.
To sit around and whine about what the other guy is doing is equivalent to rearranging the furniture on the Titanic as it's sinking.
If my squad of 7-9 guys isn't wanted or needed in this event then you just say the word and we'll stop showing up, and we'll stop bringing new players into FSO. And I don't mean new to the game players either, I mean players that have been in this game for a while but avoid FSO because of the whining and crying over little things. This has already driven away the XO of the squad so you all let me know if you want to rest to disappear.
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What i do keeps the drama from happening as described by the original post stated. There is no drama.
There is an objective and however that objective is completed is not as important. We all have the same goals.
To sit around and whine about what the other guy is doing is equivalent to rearranging the furniture on the Titanic as it's sinking.
I don't think it's that simple. If a squad disregards an organized plan they are a part of, they are likely to negatively affect the plan for all squads involved. If there is no plan; by all means, go nuts with your own ideas. We all know these nights happen.
I'll give you an example from my own experience where a squad YOLOing it on a mission only succeeded in getting every attacker killed before the target.
My squad and this other unit I'll refer to as Brand X were tasked with attacking an airfield with 190F-8's. The plan called for both squads to attack NOE from opposite directions at roughly the same time, KN from the north and Brand X from the south. The idea being that if one squad was unlucky enough to be spotted before reaching the target, the defending fighters would be dragged in that direction and opening the door for the other squad to have a cleaner run.
Instead of following the path in the orders, Brand X took the straight path to target and pretty much every defender pounced on them as they reached target. They all died, no target was hit, and now my squad is flying into a low-level hornet's nest - with the expected result. We all died before the target. Several dead 190's for no points gained. Game over.
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Think back to opening night of Jurassic Park in 1993. Until then, film used Claymation and miniatures through stop motion cameras for dinosaurs. That night through the technology of CGI, we as a collective audience took disbelief away and BELIEVED in dinosaurs were real alongside human actors. It's just a movie. That moment is same as FSO.
FSO is a fantastical environment. We choose to believe that we are WW2 aviators. We choose to believe that we are a military bunch of WW2 aviators. The key word. Military.
Many FSO players are current or former military. That truly helps. Many civilian players accept the military style of the environment. That helps greatly. There are a handful of players that don't care about the military part of FSO. The FSO military part is a choice to believe when accepting a squad into the fold.
FSO to be effective in every way possible requires the choice of believing the military part.
CM - Chief of Staff for Military Planning (designing Objectives for both sides as dual Side Commander)
CIC - Commander in Charge of executing the assigned Objectives
Squad CO - responsible for carrying out specific instruction of CICs Orders
FSO Players - the true warriors in determining the fate of the opposing CICs Orders
Simple. Straightforward. Clear as a bell.
FSO works when ALL believe in the cartoon military. Just take a moment to send reality away on this being a virtual combat simulator online. Just BELIEVE.
Once you enter that way of thinking, FSO will be the blast of fun you're wanting. Even when you get the worst ride and worst mission and history records a major disaster for that real life squadron. Here, with players of 20 years of experience, that night for one Frame. The table can be overturned.
It's just a game. Players can choose how they individually view it. Opinions shared and discussed. Actions in the air for fog of war.
If you can believe in them park dinosaurs, then you can believe in FSO.
:salute
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I don't know if you have noticed but the numbers in this game we all love are dropping.
RD,
You have noted many times that "numbers are dropping", FSO aircraft match up's are poor, mission planning is a waste of time, CM's are "brown-nosers" etc. (I am sure i missed a few, as your opinion on everything that is "wrong" is long)
Can you provide a list of solutions as you see them? To always point out the so called issues, and then to not provide a solution is weak.
Please be specific
Thanks
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Can you provide a list of solutions as you see them? To always point out the so called issues, and then to not provide a solution is weak.
Please be specific
Thanks
OK I will keep it real then
The easiest solution is to not show up.
When are you CM's going to realize your driving the players away, right along with the toejamty graphics of this game.
The crying over the smallest of things by staff and the mission planners. Was the objective complete? more than likely yes it was, did the mission go exactly as the CiC envisioned it would? probably not but the objective was completed.
Before you respond with " well you should apply for a CM position so as to help us make the event better" talk also keep in mind that being a CM in the SEA is a private little country club that only select members can get into. I was a CM in the AvA arena and when I tried to changed up how we go about getting players into an event it was met with scrutiny and negativity, even though what I was doing was getting more and more players into the otherwise dead in the water events with the same ol same ol people showing up. Those same ol same ol people are awesome people but fresh players are what is needed to keep it going.
As I said earlier, If you all don't like what I have to add or like what we are trying to contribute here, then say the F**king word and I will go fly my Apache or Hornet Friday nights instead.
<S> Darkwood
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RD,
I read though your response a few times, just so i am 100% clear and i see your opinion, but not solutions or even facts.
Like this comment "When are you CM's going to realize your driving the players away". Could it be possible that your negative, finger pointing could also have an effect on the player base? Or perhaps some players do like a detailed plan or mission for an FSO when you are CiC and not providing one could have a negative effect on there game play for the night? I do not know this for sure, as i have not asked or taken a poll, but you speak like you have, Or is it just your opinion?
I don't want to focus on mission planning, as that seams to be a small part of your negativity. (A possible solution could be to delegate to someone in your squad who would like to take on more of a planning and coordination roll? just a suggestion)
I am not going to say " well you should apply for a CM position so as to help us make the event better", but I, and i think others would welcome a conversation with you to try and alleviate any issues you may have with an event (not during the event, but prior too). I can only speak for me, but i would be confident in saying that all CM's from designers to set-ups take this voluntary role we do seriously and try to do the best we can. To repeatedly point out what you feel "sucks" in your opinion and that your "solution is to not show up", is not getting to a solution to the problems you have pointed out.
I am sorry you feel the way you do. When an event goes good for you, you really seem to enjoying them. If a event goes bad for you, than on the whole it "sucks" and the event is run down.
Its like from one extreme to another, can we find a middle ground?
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RD,
I'm hoping your lack of reply is an indication that all is well?
If that is the case, then great. See you Friday for frame 3
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OK I will keep it real then
The easiest solution is to not show up.
When are you CM's going to realize your driving the players away, right along with the toejamty graphics of this game.
The crying over the smallest of things by staff and the mission planners. Was the objective complete? more than likely yes it was, did the mission go exactly as the CiC envisioned it would? probably not but the objective was completed.
Before you respond with " well you should apply for a CM position so as to help us make the event better" talk also keep in mind that being a CM in the SEA is a private little country club that only select members can get into. I was a CM in the AvA arena and when I tried to changed up how we go about getting players into an event it was met with scrutiny and negativity, even though what I was doing was getting more and more players into the otherwise dead in the water events with the same ol same ol people showing up. Those same ol same ol people are awesome people but fresh players are what is needed to keep it going.
As I said earlier, If you all don't like what I have to add or like what we are trying to contribute here, then say the F**king word and I will go fly my Apache or Hornet Friday nights instead.
<S> Darkwood
And with 💩 responses and attitudes like this is EXACTLY why I left the CM Team. I’m done dealing with douschiness…
CMs “brown nosing”? Are you friggin insane? I am still curious about just exactly how the CMs are driving players away. Seriously. Answer that one. I am genuinely curious. The only thing the CMs do that cause less players is kicking out players that don’t follow the written rules of FSO.
Do what you wish. I no longer care. I resigned from the CM Team. I’m done trying to run events with adults whining and crying like friggin babies when they have an itch to scratch.
Enjoy…
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Slip. Please reconsider. You're good for FSO. When I come back (and I hope it's soon - even as a bomber target or truck driver) I don't wanna see FSO diminished. And it would be without you. :(
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And with 💩 responses and attitudes like this is EXACTLY why I left the CM Team. I’m done dealing with douschiness…
CMs “brown nosing”? Are you friggin insane? I am still curious about just exactly how the CMs are driving players away. Seriously. Answer that one. I am genuinely curious. The only thing the CMs do that cause less players is kicking out players that don’t follow the written rules of FSO.
Do what you wish. I no longer care. I resigned from the CM Team. I’m done trying to run events with adults whining and crying like friggin babies when they have an itch to scratch.
Enjoy…
Slip, I do hope you reconsider.
I for one appreciate all that you, and the rest of the CM's do to make events like FSO possible. Without you guys life would suck a little bit more.
I don't envy the job that you do, it's thankless and many of us in the game do understand that. Even if you don't hear if from us very often we do appreciate it.
What ever happens please don't let FSO turn into the MA. That will ruin it for sure.
:salute
Sik1
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Slip. Please reconsider. You're good for FSO. When I come back (and I hope it's soon - even as a bomber target or truck driver) I don't wanna see FSO diminished. And it would be without you. :(
That boat sailed. It's been brewing for several months. The AK's have a long history of supporting the CM team for which I'm very proud. All these individuals volunteered purely out of love for Aces High and for FSO. I'm sure other CM's do the same. The AK's have lost Slipknot and Kuya from the CM team in the past few months. I can tell you both were very excited and very proud to have serve on the CM team.
They each have their reasons for leaving but I for one appreciate the many hours they dedicated to the AH community.
Thank you Slipknot and thank you Kuya!!!!
:rock :rock
:salute :salute
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Thank you Slipknot and thank you Kuya!!!!
Ditto, there is a silent majority who do appreciate your and others work over the years.
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I know I appreciate Ditto :rofl :aok
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And with 💩 responses and attitudes like this is EXACTLY why I left the CM Team. I’m done dealing with douschiness…
CMs “brown nosing”? Are you friggin insane? I am still curious about just exactly how the CMs are driving players away. Seriously. Answer that one. I am genuinely curious.
With the plane sets, complaining over simple things (like your currently doing).
As far as my response to whatever goes, you have to take criticism being a in a CM position right along with the praise, so if you can't handle it then its not my problem.
Maybe start offering setups people want. Maybe have a suggestions page for those events.