Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Elfie on September 13, 2022, 10:02:39 AM
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Instead of needing Germany to take over for their incompetence let's say they were every bit as competent as the German military. How does this effect the outcome of dubya dubya too?
Discuss. :D
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These threads are truly a waste of time imo
A distraction from real issues
Eagler
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These threads are truly a waste of time imo
A distraction from real issues
Eagler
Then why waste your time posting in them? Fair question imo.
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Then why waste your time posting in them? Fair question imo.
To inspire better threads?
Too bad the most interesting ones don't stay open for long these days
Eagler
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I enjoy the speculation and I'm sorry that you don't.
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These threads are truly a waste of time imo
A distraction from real issues
Eagler
start a thread that is not a waste of time.
semp
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What if the atom bomb blew up the scientists in New Mexico? Would Ethiopia have defeated Italy?
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Saw something a while back on how Hitler was fascinated with Rome and enamored with modern Italy because of this history. Reality bit him on the ass.
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What if the atom bomb blew up the scientists in New Mexico? Would Ethiopia have defeated Italy?
if I remember correctly the scientists were concerned the atomic bomb would burn the oxygen in the world and kill everyone. the probability was very small but not zero.
semp
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They built a road through the forum so hitler could see it on both sides of his staff car.
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Instead of needing Germany to take over for their incompetence let's say they were every bit as competent as the German military. How does this effect the outcome of dubya dubya too?
Discuss.
- Germany has no need to invade the Balkans and Greece. Russian campaign begins two weeks earlier (probably with same result).
- Germany has no need to fight in North Africa. Saves them a quarter of a million men in 1943, just in time to replace the loss of Sixth Army.
- No one listens to Churchill's "soft underbelly" arguments. Cross-channel invasion occurs in 1943.
- Italians retain a surplus of poison gas, which is not needed to subdue the Ethiopians.
- oldman
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- Germany has no need to invade the Balkans and Greece. Russian campaign begins two weeks earlier (probably with same result).
A very wet spring so starting 2 weeks earlier wouldn't make a difference.
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Germany has no need to fight in North Africa. Saves them a quarter of a million men in 1943, just in time to replace the loss of Sixth Army.
What if that extra 250,000 men is enough to let the Wehrmacht take Stalingrad, or just enough to finish the drive to Moscow?
Not having to fight in North Africa, Balkans and Greece would be a huge help to the German war effort elsewhere.
No one listens to Churchill's "soft underbelly" arguments. Cross-channel invasion occurs in 1943.
Possibly, but the Allies probably hadn't amassed enough men and materiel in England yet in 1943. Something to consider though...
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Perhaps the map of Europe was like this?
(https://valtakunta.eu/eurooppa/neuropa-netti.jpg)
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I appreciate all the folks who make positive contributions to these threads.
I think it's fun exploring what if scenarios and it's probably why I like Hearts of Iron IV. In that game I beat Germany with Poland although I didn't finish out the war because it seemed like conquering Germany was enough for the Poles. :D
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Perhaps the map of Europe was like this?
(https://valtakunta.eu/eurooppa/neuropa-netti.jpg)
Do you have a Legend for that map?
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HAD they been competent, mebbe Rommel wouldn't have been overrun, and an oil supply wouldn't have been lost
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HAD they been competent, mebbe Rommel wouldn't have been overrun, and an oil supply wouldn't have been lost
If the Italians had been competent they wouldn't have needed Rommel. They barely beat the Ethiopians for crying out loud. :D
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Do you have a Legend for that map?
It is from old Finnish Alternative History (https://valtakunta.eu/eurooppa/kartta.shtml) page which is all in Finnish. In that page, Germany won and page describes the world after the war.
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- Germany has no need to invade the Balkans and Greece. Russian campaign begins two weeks earlier (probably with same result).
- Germany has no need to fight in North Africa. Saves them a quarter of a million men in 1943, just in time to replace the loss of Sixth Army.
- No one listens to Churchill's "soft underbelly" arguments. Cross-channel invasion occurs in 1943.
- Italians retain a surplus of poison gas, which is not needed to subdue the Ethiopians.
- oldman
I wonder, if the Itailans had possessed a much more competent fighting force, perhaps:
- Malta and Egypt would've fallen?
- The Royal Navy may have lost the Battle of Cape Matapan, securing Italian control of the eastern Med
- Italy, N Africa, and the Med would not have been viewed as the "soft underbelly" of the 3rd Reich
Maybe all this would've convinced the British and U.S. planners to forget about invading N. Africa in 1942, and instead use an invasion in the North (Norway?), as a practical tuneup for the inevitably massive cross-channel invasion of France?
The War would've taken an entirely different turn. Without much of its forces being diverted to the North African campaign, the U.S. 8th Air Force buildup would've progressed faster and the strategic bombing campaign over Germany would've gotten going earlier.
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Without much of its forces being diverted to the North African campaign, the U.S. 8th Air Force buildup would've progressed faster and the strategic bombing campaign over Germany would've gotten going earlier.
Excellent point ser!
(https://media.giphy.com/media/ZU9QbQtuI4Xcc/giphy.gif)
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- No one listens to Churchill's "soft underbelly" arguments. Cross-channel invasion occurs in 1943.
- oldman
Cross channel invasion doesn't go any earlier. D-Day wasn't delayed by the Italian invasion in '43. Rather, the invasion of Italy was done in '43 because the Western Allies couldn't realistically invade Northern France that year.
Mike
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Cross channel invasion doesn't go any earlier. D-Day wasn't delayed by the Italian invasion in '43. Rather, the invasion of Italy was done in '43 because the Western Allies couldn't realistically invade Northern France that year.
Someone wrote a book on this a few years ago (but I can't find it quickly). The topic has been discussed quite a lot. Clearly the Brits didn't want to go across the channel at all, fearing Somme Part II. Their foot-dragging, and Churchill browbeating Roosevelt, combined to put Operation Roundup off. It's a fun hypothetical, though. On one hand, we clearly didn't have the forces in 1943 that we had in 1944. On the other hand, neither did the Germans, and they hadn't come near to constructing the beach defenses that they had in 1944. Eisenhower and Marshall thought it could have been done, and they weren't morons (unless you asked Alan Brooke).
We know it worked in 1944, but at the cost of all the guys lost in the 1942-45 Mediterranean campaigns.
- oldman
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Someone wrote a book on this a few years ago (but I can't find it quickly). The topic has been discussed quite a lot. Clearly the Brits didn't want to go across the channel at all, fearing Somme Part II. Their foot-dragging, and Churchill browbeating Roosevelt, combined to put Operation Roundup off. It's a fun hypothetical, though. On one hand, we clearly didn't have the forces in 1943 that we had in 1944. On the other hand, neither did the Germans, and they hadn't come near to constructing the beach defenses that they had in 1944. Eisenhower and Marshall thought it could have been done, and they weren't morons (unless you asked Alan Brooke).
We know it worked in 1944, but at the cost of all the guys lost in the 1942-45 Mediterranean campaigns.
- oldman
We probably could have done it in 43 since we'd have had all those units from the Mediterranean campaigns. I think it likely we'd have waited for at least awhile though in order to build up our forces more. An amphibious assault and offensive to Germany would have been no cake walk no matter what time frame it happened in.
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Dieppe made the Allies rethink a '43 invasion.
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If the italians had the balls... they may have stood up to the germans. Mussolini was as big headed as the little Austrian.
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If the Italians had the balls... they may have stood up to the Germans. Mussolini was as big headed as the little Austrian.
Check history. :aok