General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Animl-AW on October 15, 2023, 09:33:05 AM
Title: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Animl-AW on October 15, 2023, 09:33:05 AM
I thought this setup of Full Realism and Relaxed Realism was a good ladder to climb. Basically this had to do with just AC settings, but in this case it would be arena/terrain settings.
Newer pilots flew RR until they built their skills to eventually step in FR and run with the big dogs. It was a goal. Training > RR > FR.
I look at MA as RR, it has quite a few game type settings. Radar is a prime example. Its not My idea is 2 smaller maps. One has gaming type settings such as MA is now, FR would be realistic true to life settings. Basically, one is a game, one is a sim, both played the same way, AC have same settings, but arena settings are different. Many players claim to have left due to radar. This could welcome them back into a world of more realistic.
The idea certainly has pros and cons. Its a fleeting idea of an old concept.
Problem with this concept is it divides numbers. However, it could attract both gamers and simmers. Knowing HT flew these two concepts I’m sure they had reasons to not do this concept. But this is more about arena settings (and/or you can’t fly easy mode in FR). We have unused arenas this could be implemented in.
All that said, its at the mercy if what HT is going to do, or not going to do with the future if them game. I’m nit of the throw in the towel concept.
The way arena setting are we could create one ourselves, dunno about dar.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: oboe on October 15, 2023, 09:48:55 AM
I think you identified the critical drawback:
Problem with this concept is it divides numbers.
Having said that, the Axis VS Allied Arena is still up and available - I just never see anybody in there. But I think it does have shorter icon ranges; not sure about the other arena settings. IIRC it attempted more realistic settings. I enjoyed flying there in its heyday.
If we could just get the MA consistently up to 150+ during prime time evenings, I bet it could spare 20-30 of us, who could make a lot of fun in the AvA arena.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Animl-AW on October 15, 2023, 09:58:25 AM
Having said that, the Axis VS Allied Arena is still up and available - I just never see anybody in there. But I think it does have shorter icon ranges; not sure about the other arena settings. IIRC it attempted more realistic settings. I enjoyed flying there in its heyday.
If we could just get the MA consistently up to 150+ during prime time evenings, I bet it could spare 20-30 of us, who could make a lot of fun in the AvA arena.
AvA is a part of realism. Everything realism. Was thinking the same about numbers. That said, it could also draw players. It all looks good, on paper. I’m of the NothingVenturedNothingGained tribe. Ideas flow with morning coffee :)
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 15, 2023, 10:57:50 AM
I think you identified the critical drawback: Problem with this concept is it divides numbers.
In order of importance:
1 Monitzation model 2 In-game Graphics 3 UI Design 4 Fun:Hour Ratio (~transit times\player density) 5 Death of the Squeaker (A game that has lost it's young people, has lost it's future.)
The sad part is, there is nothing there unfixable. Until you fix those things, nothing else really matters. The first 3 are blocking you from acquiring new players. 99.99996% have already decided to uninstall when they realize #1. 2 and 3 just seal the deal. The last two contribute to dwindling numbers of existing players.
Do what ever you want in terms of palliative care to amuse the current players while they are here, but the game will not grow without fixing the 5 above, IMHO.
Notice, no where did I say it was a bad sim. Underneath it all, there is a solid simulation engine.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Animl-AW on October 15, 2023, 12:54:47 PM
1 Monitzation model 2 In-game Graphics 3 UI Design 4 Fun:Hour Ratio (~transit times\player density) 5 Death of the Squeaker (A game that has lost it's young people, has lost it's future.)
The sad part is, there is nothing there unfixable. Until you fix those things, nothing else really matters. The first 3 are blocking you from acquiring new players. 99.99996% have already decided to uninstall when they realize #1. 2 and 3 just seal the deal. The last two contribute to dwindling numbers of existing players.
Do what ever you want in terms of palliative care to amuse the current players while they are here, but the game will not grow without fixing the 5 above, IMHO.
Notice, no where did I say it was a bad sim. Underneath it all, there is a solid simulation engine.
I’m just looking at things that make change with little if any coding required. Ask for too much ya get nothing.
People who left and people who remain are of different mindset. Everything listed has already been mentioned 1000 times. Every sim has issues that won’t change that lose numbers. Every other sim is dropping, AH is not, anymore. They too will be where we are now. Seen it 100 times. Offering both worlds has advantages. A load of tweak in game as is goes a long way. People talk about graphics without ever pin pointing where. Clouds are the same, terrain is similar just toned back for slower machines. AC models and skins are just fine. Some sims are over-kill on haze that hides distance graphics for better data flow.. the core does not need an update, its just not wide open.
I’m nit going to repeat what we are well aware of. I’m going with an idea that can work, update or not.
People who remain are more positive. More numbers means more money, which makes more incentive to fix things. Some of us have experience tirning things around. Weekened arena counts have come up to almost 150 from 90-110. Bring in players and make it worthy of updates/rweaks.
You have dead set in your mind that its over , its not.
Lets do 1001 repeat. Stay on subject. :)
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 15, 2023, 01:04:42 PM
I’m just looking at things that make change with little if any coding required. Ask for too much ya get nothing.
That falls into the palliative care i mentioned.
That's fine. There is nothing wrong with that in and of itself. Make a video of the next event. Make a plane skin. Put on an event for the dwindling number of people who will show up.
No harm in any of that as long as you are not deluding yourself or any other.
None of that will alter the trajectory. If you don't care about the trajectory, then don't worry about it.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Animl-AW on October 15, 2023, 01:38:25 PM
BTW, you just used a passive aggressive approach to establishing a negative point on a fresh idea.
Opportunity to say it taken.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 15, 2023, 01:51:58 PM
BTW, you just used a passive aggressive approach to establishing a negative point on a fresh idea.
Opportunity to say it taken.
Were you only expecting people to tell you you are a genius?
I assume you were intending to make a suggestion to increase the recruitment of new players. Obviously adding an RR arena would have no benefit to the existing players who have been here twenty years.
If I were being generous, I might say what you suggested my help with variable 5. However they are not all of equal weight. It's more logarithmic than linear. The previous 4 items grossly dominate the 5th in effect.
My point was there is nothing wrong with what you suggested but it will not likely have any beneficial effect given the dominance of the other variables.
You equate speaking the truth with being negative instead of just speaking what I feel is the truth. You instead demand an Orwellian Right-Think at all times. My replies were to Oboe not you, and they represent what I think is the state of the matter. There was no personal attack but you sure want to start one.
If nothing else, it proves you are incapable of dealing with even the mildest constructive feedback.
But we already knew that, didn't we?
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Dadtallica on October 15, 2023, 01:59:29 PM
This belongs over in Wishlist, where all other ideas go to die.
;)
Go ay DCS and complain about module prices, as you do there. You're off subject. This is about FR and RR. Stay on subject or leave. Very few appreciated your negative input, thread hijacking, DCS sakes pitches, and doomsday obsession. And many have stated so. Its not me. Its almost everyone. Slow learner.
Projecting yourself onto me like normal.
Its not me who wishes a short life on someone just because they DISAGREED WITH YOU. The more you talk the more I realize you know NOTHING.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Animl-AW on October 15, 2023, 02:43:58 PM
You’ll get this thread locked like every thread you touch, just be gone.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 15, 2023, 02:51:01 PM
You made a suggestion to try and attract more new players.
I pointed out the factors that would largely prevent it from having the intended effect. how is that off topic (given your suggestion was posted in the wrong place to begin with)?
Or by off topic did you mean the only intent was to have people praise your stable genius?
OK, I submit. How about this;
"Gosh golly, Animl! You are so smart! You're like the smartest! This is such a genius idea that is sure to totally change the course of the whole game! This will absolutely change the course of Aces High! Possible all online flightsim. Dare I say, possibly change the course of Humankind! Should we sing songs about you, or would a statue suffice? Oh, and forget about the Wishlist topic. That is for mere mortals. Your ideas are far too important to be co-mingled with the ideas of the little people!"
Is that more of what you were expecting?
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Animl-AW on October 15, 2023, 03:05:08 PM
You made a suggestion to try and attract more new players.
I pointed out the factors that would largely prevent it from having the intended effect. how is that off topic (given your suggestion was posted in the wrong place to begin with)?
Or by off topic did you mean the only intent was to have people praise your stable genius?
OK, I submit. How about this;
"Gosh golly, Animl! You are so smart! You're like the smartest! This is such a genius idea that is sure to totally change the course of the whole game! This will absolutely change the course of Aces High! Possible all online flightsim. Dare I say, possibly change the course of Humankind! Should we sing songs about you, or would a statue suffice? Oh, and forget about the Wishlist topic. That is for mere mortals. Your ideas are far to important to be co-mingled with the ideas of the little people!"
Is that more of what you were expecting?
You have severe cognitive issues. We all know why you’re in this thread, to cast doomsday repeats (2000 times) on a simple fleeting idea.
You hate it, it must be good for AH
A thread awaits you in oclub, its because of your childish behavior. We all know ehy you hate me, you lust for AH to die for your migration plans. You don’t have s fan club here. Move along spammer.
You’re here to hijack a thread to block any ideas that may help AH. All we gave to do is see ur name in a thread and we already know what you’re going to do. You have the thinest skin of anyone. “Insecurities”.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 15, 2023, 03:21:44 PM
You have severe cognitive issues. We all know why you’re in this thread, to cast doomsday repeats (2000 times) on a simple fleeting idea.
First, my reply was to Oboe, not you. You decided to reply to me.
So saying that none of AH's main issues are unfixable is only being negative? That sounds pretty empowering to me.
Now if I said, people just hate WWII and only want to fly modern jets, that would be negative because you can't have AH without WWII. But I have always argued the exact opposite of that in endless topics. I've shown by example there appears to be no innate rejection of the WWII genre in the broader market. WWII as a genre in not AH's problem. Or else IL2 wouldn't be as successful as it has been. Or else a new project wouldn't be starting that is going to take years and tens of millions of dollars in development investment. Obviously, WWII is not a dead genre.
I also didn't say I hated your idea. I specifically said there as nothing wrong with it. My point was that your intent was that it might help the numbers and I was pointing out what would be preventing it from having your intended effect.
It was an on-topic statement, not in any way insulting, and not even addressed to you. However you have decided it was insufficiently worshipful and so you are going to go into one of your crying fits.
Besides, do you deny this should have been posted in the Wishlist topic? Are your ideas too important to go there?
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Dadtallica on October 15, 2023, 04:49:35 PM
You’ll get this thread locked like every thread you touch, just be gone.
You post the same thread every week with the same regurgitated thoughts. And Animl… you are as much to blame for thread locking as anyone. The nonsense you do to people in private is childish and borderline harassment yet you claim to be an exceptional human on all accounts.
You sir are most certainly out standing in your field. :salute
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 15, 2023, 05:12:00 PM
I mean you have you’re own issues but let’s keep on theme here. :rofl
Oh...I got issues. ;)
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Brooke on October 16, 2023, 10:35:17 PM
Last I recall HiTech talking about it (years ago), he said that there were plenty of new users trying out AH, but they went into the melee arena for about 15 minutes, then left and never came back.
If that is still the dynamic, it means the biggest thing is barrier to entry. Not monetary model, or graphics. Noobs go in and don't get quickly into action they enjoy. They get massacred, or don't find a fight, or whatever, and leave for good.
I remember relaxed realism and full realism from Air Warrior days. It was an attempt to ease that transition from noob to not-noob. But RR in Air Warrior was more popular than FR, and a lot of veteran players stayed just in RR and didn't have any desire to go into FR. In that case, it doesn't help the noob from getting massacred. (I remember trying to get veterans to graduate from RR to FR, and being frustrated by their lack of desire to do so. Same as my frustration here trying to get melee players to try scenarios.)
I think the Air Warrior also had a beginners arena. You could play in it when you first signed up. But once you got some number of kills (5? 10? I can't remember), you couldn't enter the beginners arena anymore. It's a good idea. But if there aren't enough beginners, it doesn't work out. As you show up in the beginners arena, and it's only you in there.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 16, 2023, 11:14:15 PM
Nevermind.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: oboe on October 17, 2023, 09:31:53 AM
Last I recall HiTech talking about it (years ago), he said that there were plenty of new users trying out AH, but they went into the melee arena for about 15 minutes, then left and never came back.
If that is still the dynamic, it means the biggest thing is barrier to entry. Not monetary model, or graphics. Noobs go in and don't get quickly into action they enjoy. They get massacred, or don't find a fight, or whatever, and leave for good.
I remember relaxed realism and full realism from Air Warrior days. It was an attempt to ease that transition from noob to not-noob. But RR in Air Warrior was more popular than FR, and a lot of veteran players stayed just in RR and didn't have any desire to go into FR. In that case, it doesn't help the noob from getting massacred. (I remember trying to get veterans to graduate from RR to FR, and being frustrated by their lack of desire to do so. Same as my frustration here trying to get melee players to try scenarios.)
I think the Air Warrior also had a beginners arena. You could play in it when you first signed up. But once you got some number of kills (5? 10? I can't remember), you couldn't enter the beginners arena anymore. It's a good idea. But if there aren't enough beginners, it doesn't work out. As you show up in the beginners arena, and it's only you in there.
I saved Hitech's quote from the post you're referring to, because I thought it seemed hugely telling about the state of the game, with regard to first impressions, ease of use, learning curve, etc. Here it is:
Quote
Quote from: hitech on November 29, 2017, 10:21:00 AM
Don't mean to jump on ya but on this rare occasion I want to point out how mistaken almost all people on this board are about the dynamics of AH.
In the last 100 days aprox 40,000 people have installed Aces High, 20,000 new people have created accounts and entered an arena. Of the people entering the arena 65% are gone and do never reenter by the 10 minute mark of being in the arena. 75% are gone after 30 Minutes. HiTech
I may be way off, but I think the Steam release was far more effective at getting users to try the game than any advertising campaign has been. In fact, I think it made it so easy to try the game that many people who were only marginally interested tried it - losing half of the 40,000 DLs suggests AH doesn't make a good first impression, or that half the people who DL'd weren't the kind of people who were going to stick around anyway - they might've been mildly curious and tried it out because Steam makes it so easy to do so.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 17, 2023, 10:04:58 AM
I saved Hitech's quote from the post you're referring to, because I thought it seemed hugely telling about the state of the game, with regard to first impressions, ease of use, learning curve, etc. Here it is: I may be way off, but I think the Steam release was far more effective at getting users to try the game than any advertising campaign has been. In fact, I think it made it so easy to try the game that many people who were only marginally interested tried it - losing half of the 40,000 DLs suggests AH doesn't make a good first impression, or that half the people who DL'd weren't the kind of people who were going to stick around anyway - they might've been mildly curious and tried it out because Steam makes it so easy to do so.
Which is why I put stuff like finding a fight and long flight times to fights at #4. I'm not going to spend 3 hours to find the post, but I remember HT saying most never got wheels up. So it is doubtful that not finding a fight was a major factor. They never got that far. That's why I stated the last two the last two items in the list affected those who have subscription more than those you are trying to convince to start one.
It could be a training issue. I've been doubting that more and more. AH does a good job default mapping controls. Auto take-off is enabled by default. I've played many other flightsims. at least a good portion of those downloads would be players who have played WT, IL2, DCS, BMS, etc. I can not believe that most couldn't get airborne with a little effort if they has a motivation to do so. I think their decision had already been made before that point. They didn't see anything to change their mind.
Based off the reviews I saw on the Steam page and the data HT has posted, I still believe that 99.99999996% have already decided to uninstall at the point they get the trial\subscription message. They are just going a little further out of curiosity to see it, but aren't even bothering to get airborne.
Their expectation of how a subscription game should work has been shaped by market leaders like WT. They are expecting a portion of the planeset to always be FTP, not just a two week trial. Toss out what ever excuses you want, but the way the game is listed reinforces that. When they get the trial\subscription message, it feels like a slap in the face and a big middle-finger. It doesn't matter why the game had to be listed like that, it only matters what the outcome effect is.
Failing to adjust to the current markets expectations of how subscription games should be structured is the single largest point of friction to AH, IMHO.
Just as other sims that failed to realize how the market had turned away from pay-per-hour and died do to that failure. HTC saw the market shift then and was one of the very first to go flat rate. I fear HTC has failed to realize the market expectations have shifted again and a subscription model designed back when Bill Clinton was President might not still be effective in 2023.
I would never want to see AH go the micro transaction route like WT, but I think they do have a much smarter approach to keep contact with a potential customers longer with their FTP planes.
All should go read through the 300+ reviews on the Steam page. It can't be proven that every player who downloads has those reactions, but that is the data you have. Those are the only written (that I know of) explanations of why players who have downloaded AH were not sold. You won't agree with them, but that is self-selection. Since you are still here it is likely you don't share their view. Never the less, it would be unwise to ignore them. Those reviews should be read by anyone seriously wanting to understand where AH is failing to make the sale.
Or just believe what ever makes you feel good regardless of evidence. That is what most people do. ;)
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Shuffler on October 17, 2023, 10:27:35 AM
Not being able to buy yourself better will make many move along.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 17, 2023, 10:33:24 AM
I thought this setup of Full Realism and Relaxed Realism was a good ladder to climb. Basically this had to do with just AC settings, but in this case it would be arena/terrain settings.
Newer pilots flew RR until they built their skills to eventually step in FR and run with the big dogs. It was a goal. Training > RR > FR.
You will have no new players to enjoy a RR arena because of the items being discussed.
You are not in charge of conversations.
If you get your thread locked, that is your problem. In either case, it doesn't prevent me from saying what I want to say.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: oboe on October 17, 2023, 11:41:09 AM
I'm aware that we have veered from the original subject of Animal's post, and I apologize for that - I just wanted to post Hitech's statement of some years ago verbatim in response to Brooke's reference to it, to add actual numbers to the discussion.
I also want to say I appreciate Animal trying to come up with ideas that can be implemented without requiring coding changes or enhancements. He's just trying to work with what we have. I don't know if anyone but Hitech knows whether coding changes are even possible at this point. Having worked in the past as a programmer myself, I shudder at the notion that one person, without so much as a test arena or group of testers, can handle all phases of design, development, testing, rollout to Production and the inevitable bug fixes and patches. It is daunting to say the least.
Having said that, I still believe there are few things that are beyond Hitech's capabilities as a developer.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 17, 2023, 11:46:52 AM
I'm aware that we have veered from the original subject of Animal's post, and I apologize for that - I just wanted to post Hitech's statement of some years ago verbatim in response to Brooke's reference to it, to add actual numbers to the discussion.
Just for completeness, here is the full original quote and the link to the original context:
Don't mean to jump on ya but on this rare occasion I want to point out how mistaken almost all people on this board are about the dynamics of AH.
In the last 100 days aprox 40,000 people have installed Aces High, 20,000 new people have created accounts and entered an arena. Of the people entering the arena 65% are gone and do never reenter by the 10 minute mark of being in the arena. 75% are gone after 30 Minutes.
So when some one makes a claim that changing to 3 hours will have a measurable impact on attracting new subscribers it makes me :rolleyes:
Don't begin to think I don't that I ignore the issues. The release a few weeks ago was a huge change to how the mouse system works, in an attempt to improve the 75% leaving before 30 minutes of play.
So were the new training video systems. Also not only about 15% of people who try AH have Joy Sticks. Right now Aces Highs biggest issues is conversion rates of players trying the game to players subscribing. For some reason I am not setting the hook quickly enough that a player is having fun when first trying the game.
We used to run between a 10 to 12% conversion rate from entering an arena to subscriber. My goal currently is to substantially raise my current conversion rate which is around 1%. And I do not think the driving forces of that conversions are things like how long between country changes.
My next attempt is to try get free Match play populated. I am doing so by creating tournament structures. With prizes in the future.
HiTech
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: oboe on October 17, 2023, 12:08:15 PM
Thanks, CptTrips! :salute
Another frequent topic/complaint that get brought up in here as harming the game are map sizes; there is a group of people convinced that the current large maps are killing the game. Making smaller maps could be done without coding changes - but I just don't think that is why 75% of the people who tried the game were gone in under 30 minutes.
'course that quote is 6 years old; some things may have changed.
I would also add that one time, I tried a Xbox style game controller with AH, just for kicks. AH assigned functions to it automatically, with reasonable button assignments. I guess I'm too old a dog to learn new tricks so I couldn't get used to flying with it. But I was impressed the AH was able to handle it, especially since Hitech said only 15% of the people trying AH have joystcks. It might actually be better as a controller for GVs...
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 17, 2023, 12:18:34 PM
Another frequent topic/complaint that get brought up in here as harming the game are map sizes; there is a group of people convinced that the current large maps are killing the game. Making smaller maps could be done without coding changes - but I just don't think that is why 75% of the people who tried the game were gone in under 30 minutes.
Which is why I grouped things like pace\tempo that are effected by things like map size, at #4. It more affects the retention of current subscribers than being the source of not converting new trial players. They are not getting that far, which is the point in my response to Brookes.
I would also add that one time, I tried a Xbox style game controller with AH, just for kicks. AH assigned functions to it automatically, with reasonable button assignments. I guess I'm too old a dog to learn new tricks so I couldn't get used to flying with it. But I was impressed the AH was able to handle it, especially since Hitech said only 15% of the people trying AH have joystcks. It might actually be better as a controller for GVs...
Good point, I hadn't considered console controllers. I suspect a large number of those are mouse players. A lot of the casual players play WT with mouse.
I had suggested in the past that the mouse controls be designed as closely as possible to how they work in WT as a shallower on-ramp and hopefully convince them to graduate to joystick and peddles. It's been years since I compared them, but my memory is it functioned quite differently than WT.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Animl-AW on October 17, 2023, 12:34:10 PM
Waiting 24 hrs to post on DCS, going to have great fun
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 17, 2023, 12:37:29 PM
Another frequent topic/complaint that get brought up in here as harming the game are map sizes; there is a group of people convinced that the current large maps are killing the game. Making smaller maps could be done without coding changes - but I just don't think that is why 75% of the people who tried the game were gone in under 30 minutes.
'course that quote is 6 years old; some things may have changed.
I would also add that one time, I tried a Xbox style game controller with AH, just for kicks. AH assigned functions to it automatically, with reasonable button assignments. I guess I'm too old a dog to learn new tricks so I couldn't get used to flying with it. But I was impressed the AH was able to handle it, especially since Hitech said only 15% of the people trying AH have joystcks. It might actually be better as a controller for GVs...
When ArcheAge died I was in need of a new MMO to play, so I tried Black Desert. I got into it for about 15 mins, got through some tutorials, ran around a bit then logged off and haven't logged in since. Not that the game was bad, but having played a different game for so long I didn't feel like putting in the effort (at least right now) to re-learn a new MMO.
I feel that is similar to anyone coming from a different game, be it WW2OL, WT, IL2, DCS, etc. I own IL2 and a few DCS planes. I know the investment it's going to take for me to get proficient - just not something I'm willing to do right now. IMO AH is somewhere in between WT and IL2 when it comes to getting on your feet and getting somewhat proficient.
And I agree - I think a joystick is a requirement for these games, but it's understandable why not everyone has one. There used to be tons of low-cost options and now there just aren't. A console controller should be sufficient and likely leaps and bounds better than a mouse and keyboard, but still nothing compared to a stick (twisty or stick+pedals). I use the mouse/kb for GVs and gunning in bombers. Joystick for those is a total PITA.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 17, 2023, 01:22:07 PM
When ArcheAge died I was in need of a new MMO to play, so I tried Black Desert. I got into it for about 15 mins, got through some tutorials, ran around a bit then logged off and haven't logged in since. Not that the game was bad, but having played a different game for so long I didn't feel like putting in the effort (at least right now) to re-learn a new MMO.
That is a fair point, but you still have to account for AH used to get 10-12% conversion rate to "around" 1% now, which might be rounded up from less than 1%.
That effect would have been in happening back in 2000 as much as 2023. How was AH so successful 2000-2010? Give that every customer is coming from somewhere.
So why is AH not thriving now? The key is to try and understand what has changed that there are no longer 600 players in the arena and no more Squeakers.
It can't be only because players refuse to learn a new game or else there wouldn't be so many former AH players in IL2 or DCS as they came long after AH. How did they convince players to learn a whole new environment? How did Enigma move from WWIIOL to IL2 to DCS? Obviously there are plenty of players who will move or at least branch into other sims that they like the look of or meets their needs better.
So the important question is why isn't AH winning a share of those at least as well as it did in 2000?
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Spikes on October 17, 2023, 01:29:09 PM
That is a fair point, but you still have to account for AH used to get 10-12% conversion rate to "around" 1% now, which might be rounded up from less than 1%.
That effect would have been in happening back in 2000 as much as 2023. How was AH so successful 2000-2010? Give that every customer is coming from somewhere.
So why is AH not thriving now? The key is to try and understand what has changed that there are no longer 600 players in the arena and no more Squeakers.
It can't be only because players refuse to learn a new game or else there wouldn't be so many former AH players in IL2 or DCS as they came long after AH. How did they convince players to learn a whole new environment? How did Enigma move from WWIIOL to IL2 to DCS? Obviously there are plenty of players who will move or at least branch into other sims that they like the look of or meets their needs better.
So the important question is why isn't AH winning a share of those at least as well as it did in 2000?
Because none of those games existed in 2000.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Animl-AW on October 17, 2023, 01:31:42 PM
You have a new follower on DCS forums. I wouldn’t want to miss a thing. So excited.
Karma, is a very large pill to swallow
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 17, 2023, 01:35:37 PM
Sorry, I asked a lot of questions. Let me narrow the scope.
If the problem is mainly do to a player not wanting to learn a new game even if it looks awesome, how did DCS convince so many former AH players to learn a whole new environment? Or IL2?
Did they do so because they saw something they liked and decided it was worth the effort?
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 17, 2023, 01:43:22 PM
Sorry, I asked a lot of questions. Let me narrow the scope.
If the problem is mainly do to a player not wanting to learn a new game even if it looks awesome, how did DCS convince so many former AH players to learn a whole new environment? Or IL2?
Did they do so because they saw something they liked and decided it was worth the effort?
I didn't say it was the main problem. I'm sure it's one of many factors. I just simply compared the dilemma to my experience from a different set of games in a different genre. And I don't know, you'd have to ask someone who plays DCS or IL2.
Can you answer something for me: What is it about this forum that makes you want to stay? You don't play the game, you clearly don't like the game or the community surrounding the game. Whenever you post it's just about other competitors to AH and/or subtly bashing the game. So what is the endgame for spending all day on a forum for a game that you have zero interest participating in? Why not spend all of that time on a forum for a game in which you enjoy playing?
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Animl-AW on October 17, 2023, 01:55:11 PM
Numbers? On steam charts, DCS dropped from a 2022 peak of 3,300 to 1,200 valley 2023, its still decending, currently at 2020 valley on the charts.
Seems reality has $truck quite a few. Now makes sense frantically trying to pull AH players. From pot into frying pan. Barrowing from Peter to pay Paul.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 17, 2023, 01:59:31 PM
Can you answer something for me: What is it about this forum that makes you want to stay? You don't play the game, you clearly don't like the game or the community surrounding the game. Whenever you post it's just about other competitors to AH and/or subtly bashing the game. So what is the endgame for spending all day on a forum for a game that you have zero interest participating in? Why not spend all of that time on a forum for a game in which you enjoy playing?
Because I have an interest in flightsims in general. Because I have a historical interest in this sim that I was flying for years before you ever showed up.
When I point out where AH is failing, or where I think it might be failing, it is so it can addressed and change failure to success.
Some think the best way of being a friend is blowing constant sunshine up their skirt. A true friend is one who will tell you when you are screwing up so you have to chance to change course. Problems are never solved by wishful thinking and putting heads in the sand. Solving a problem usually takes the courage to look at hard, uncomfortable questions and answering them honestly to find a path forward.
Whether or not I spend my limited money in AH, I still want to see AH reverse it's trend and get back of sustainable footing. I think it's an import sim in the genre and I think it's current problems are fixable. But you can't fix a problem you are afraid to look at or fear the social tantrums you will generate by stating unpopular facts.
I can tell you are miffed, not because I am calling you a name, but because I am cornering you into answering questions you'd prefer not to think about.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 17, 2023, 02:00:18 PM
Numbers? On steam charts, DCS dropped from a 2022 peak of 3,300 to 1,200 valley 2023, its still decending, currently at 2020 valley on the charts.
Seems reality has $truck quite a few. Now makes sense frantically trying to pull AH players. From pot into frying pan. Barrowing from Peter to pay Paul.
No one is listening to you anymore, animl.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Chris79 on October 17, 2023, 02:43:21 PM
Low numbers beget lesser gameplay which begets lower numbers. The problems. 1. It’s a difficult game to learn as a noob. 10 years ago when there was 350-400 in the MA, you could find some meaningful action if even if you were new or just plain sucked. There were always missions to participate in or GV action which is infinitely easier to learn then A to A. Now, there are few to no missions which makes the air action more difficult to learn and the GV action is abominable. 2. The maps are to bloody big. 3. Man guns/battleships. Probably ought to cap how many “gun” sorties allowed per hour. 4. It’s damn near more practical to resupply strata than to defend them. 5. Maybe make the free trial longer than 2 weeks and have one dedicated squad per country that all new accounts are assigned to for assistance.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 17, 2023, 02:56:29 PM
Only thing that is going to bring more players into the game now that is noticeable is to have another commercial on TV and/or youtube and Rumble. This is simply no marketing at all for this game and I still believe most haven't heard of it. It's a very niche game and the subscription prevents many people from trying the game again in the MA after a couple of months. People just aren't gonna pay $15 if they maybe want to play the game just to try it again where most of the action is.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Dadtallica on October 17, 2023, 03:51:46 PM
Only thing that is going to bring more players into the game now that is noticeable is to have another commercial on TV and/or youtube and Rumble. This is simply no marketing at all for this game and I still believe most haven't heard of it. It's a very niche game and the subscription prevents many people from trying the game again in the MA after a couple of months. People just aren't gonna pay $15 if they maybe want to play the game just to try it again where most of the action is.
Advertising is a lot of money and with out a sure return a big gamble with a one man company.
I would look into a Steam relaunch. Add 6-12 fighters, bombers, and GVs to a "free always in the MA" as the new grab. Add to the relaunch page all the "NEW" maps recently added and coming soon, the amazing VR setup/system/play, and how both a mouse or game controller can be used to play, and rename it "Aces High! Masters of the Air!" and launch it again on Steam.
Im not sure how much coad work it would be to add the free planes in the MA, but all the other stuff is already in game. A relaunch would bring the game to a whole new set of eyes. And with a name that ties into the Hanks/Spielburg movie it could draw a bit more intrest.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Dadtallica on October 17, 2023, 04:13:19 PM
Advertising is a lot of money and with out a sure return a big gamble with a one man company.
I would look into a Steam relaunch. Add 6-12 fighters, bombers, and GVs to a "free always in the MA" as the new grab. Add to the relaunch page all the "NEW" maps recently added and coming soon, the amazing VR setup/system/play, and how both a mouse or game controller can be used to play, and rename it "Aces High! Masters of the Air!" and launch it again on Steam.
Im not sure how much coad work it would be to add the free planes in the MA, but all the other stuff is already in game. A relaunch would bring the game to a whole new set of eyes. And with a name that ties into the Hanks/Spielburg movie it could draw a bit more intrest.
Not a bad idea.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: oboe on October 17, 2023, 04:13:31 PM
@Chris79 - I agree with your point #1. Points 2-4 seem more like frustrations of more experienced players, who have become familiar with the ins and outs of game play.
Regarding point #5, I dunno, it seems if 75% of new players aren't even lasting 30 minutes in the main arena, I don't know how much difference increasing the two week free period would make.
But, it still be an interesting experiment - increase the two week free play to 3 months/90 days. If the length of the free-to-play grace period really is a factor, we should see more players sticking around longer than 30 minutes.
Could run a temporary special on Steam; e.g., all new accounts created in November will receive 90 days free instead of only 14 days. Who knows, it might work! If it results in more players in the MA and a better game experience for everyone because of it, seems like a good idea.
Also like the idea of having noobs auto-assigned to a trainer squadron, just to be welcomed and to answer questions and help with technical issues...
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 17, 2023, 04:54:17 PM
Also like the idea of having noobs auto-assigned to a trainer squadron, just to be welcomed and to answer questions and help with technical issues...
In a sim I was in a million years ago, they had a specific new user squad.
Their job was to grab them, make them feel immediately part of a team that will show them the ropes. The idea is that membership was always temporary. They got you up to speed and taught you how to work within a squad and wingmen, and then they help find you a permanent squad to join once you were ready to "graduate". Receiving squads knew you had a base level of training and were essentially "vetted" and vouched for by the training squad.
Of course, I don't know how much use that would be if they are not staying 10 minutes.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 17, 2023, 05:11:32 PM
Only thing that is going to bring more players into the game now that is noticeable is to have another commercial on TV and/or youtube and Rumble. This is simply no marketing at all for this game and I still believe most haven't heard of it. It's a very niche game and the subscription prevents many people from trying the game again in the MA after a couple of months. People just aren't gonna pay $15 if they maybe want to play the game just to try it again where most of the action is.
You're an accounting guy, right? So you understand ROI.
You can look at your current conversion rate based off your normal organic traffic. Lets be generous and call that a full 1%. You can then looks at estimates of market size your ad platform might likely give you exposure to, and then look at the ad cost and make a reasonable guess to if that would be a positive or negative ROI.
If the math suggests there is no possibility of a positive ROI based on any of the data you have, then advertising would be an expensive hobby.
In previous years when he was advertising, he may have had 12% conversion rate. That may have given him a positive ROI. He had reason to believe it would turn a profit to make that ad spend.
At 1% the numbers may not work. I doubt HT has wads of cash to throw at something his data tells him can not be mathematically profitable. He would only advertise his way into bankruptcy.
You have two obvious choices.
1. Find cheaper advertising. 2. Improve your organic conversion rate so that you have a reasonable chance to profit from investing in ads.
The discussion of things like how FTP and other option might effect conversion rate is to find a solution to raise the conversion rate so that it is rational to try and throw ad money at it because you will then have data that suggests it will have a positive ROI.
I assure you if he had data that suggested he had high enough conversion rate to make ads profitable, he would move heaven and earth and go sell blood plasma to raise the money to buy ads. Until he has a better conversion rate, he would be better off burning that cash in his fireplace to at least save on heating bills.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: TheBug on October 17, 2023, 05:55:11 PM
This game is done, in regards to development, enjoy it as it is or don't. It's pretty simple.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 17, 2023, 05:59:19 PM
. failed edit.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Dadtallica on October 17, 2023, 06:05:12 PM
Because I have an interest in flightsims in general. Because I have a historical interest in this sim that I was flying for years before you ever showed up.
When I point out where AH is failing, or where I think it might be failing, it is so it can addressed and change failure to success.
Some think the best way of being a friend is blowing constant sunshine up their skirt. A true friend is one who will tell you when you are screwing up so you have to chance to change course. Problems are never solved by wishful thinking and putting heads in the sand. Solving a problem usually takes the courage to look at hard, uncomfortable questions and answering them honestly to find a path forward.
Whether or not I spend my limited money in AH, I still want to see AH reverse it's trend and get back of sustainable footing. I think it's an import sim in the genre and I think it's current problems are fixable. But you can't fix a problem you are afraid to look at or fear the social tantrums you will generate by stating unpopular facts.
I can tell you are miffed, not because I am calling you a name, but because I am cornering you into answering questions you'd prefer not to think about.
I just don't understand why you keep trying to make something of this that it isn't. If HT downsized his entire operation, does that seem like the move to expand and get the player base back to what it used to be?
HT even stated way back that the game blew up to something that they didn't expect. What makes you think that there is any desire from HT to 'reverse its trend' and 'fix the problems'? If you are so concerned about the game and you want to do something about it you should give him a call, he'll listen and talk to you.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 17, 2023, 06:30:58 PM
True enough. So would you please stop screaming? It gets annoying.
- oldman
Stop telling people to start enjoying what they have and quit getting themselves worked up over an all but dead game that is what is? Even though what it is is pretty damn good?
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: nopoop on October 17, 2023, 11:39:33 PM
I like tbe 90 day free trial. Takes a week to configure your controlers two to land lol. Steam would be my choice but have no idea on cost.
Small maps in rotation. Give it a shot. I think 90 days would be the hook, up to speed and getting some kills..
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Shuffler on October 18, 2023, 09:05:51 AM
Looks like he is doing the same thing the other board person is doing.
Lol. Animl is free to post on any forum he likes as far as I'm concerned. But he might was to refraine from stalking people with sexually explicit PM. It just makes him look (more) mentally ill.
I didn't say it was the main problem. I'm sure it's one of many factors. I just simply compared the dilemma to my experience from a different set of games in a different genre. And I don't know, you'd have to ask someone who plays DCS or IL2.
Can you answer something for me: What is it about this forum that makes you want to stay? You don't play the game, you clearly don't like the game or the community surrounding the game. Whenever you post it's just about other competitors to AH and/or subtly bashing the game. So what is the endgame for spending all day on a forum for a game that you have zero interest participating in? Why not spend all of that time on a forum for a game in which you enjoy playing?
Clearly 100% for attention since he replies to the same persons threads as a troll and then has two pages of replies to people not addressing him. Clearly no one is listening to him but he continues to reply. He needs mental help. Put him on ignore and stroll on by.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 18, 2023, 10:36:54 AM
Clearly 100% for attention since he replies to the same persons threads as a troll and then has two pages of replies to people not addressing him. Clearly no one is listening to him but he continues to reply. He needs mental help. Put him on ignore and stroll on by.
LoL.
Animl has been telling me he put me on ignore for 6 months now.
He just can't seem to make it stick. :rofl
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 18, 2023, 10:39:03 AM
Advertising is a lot of money and with out a sure return a big gamble with a one man company.
I would look into a Steam relaunch. Add 6-12 fighters, bombers, and GVs to a "free always in the MA" as the new grab. Add to the relaunch page all the "NEW" maps recently added and coming soon, the amazing VR setup/system/play, and how both a mouse or game controller can be used to play, and rename it "Aces High! Masters of the Air!" and launch it again on Steam.
Im not sure how much coad work it would be to add the free planes in the MA, but all the other stuff is already in game. A relaunch would bring the game to a whole new set of eyes. And with a name that ties into the Hanks/Spielburg movie it could draw a bit more intrest.
You're an accounting guy, right? So you understand ROI.
You can look at your current conversion rate based off your normal organic traffic. Lets be generous and call that a full 1%. You can then looks at estimates of market size your ad platform might likely give you exposure to, and then look at the ad cost and make a reasonable guess to if that would be a positive or negative ROI.
If the math suggests there is no possibility of a positive ROI based on any of the data you have, then advertising would be an expensive hobby.
In previous years when he was advertising, he may have had 12% conversion rate. That may have given him a positive ROI. He had reason to believe it would turn a profit to make that ad spend.
At 1% the numbers may not work. I doubt HT has wads of cash to throw at something his data tells him can not be mathematically profitable. He would only advertise his way into bankruptcy.
You have two obvious choices.
1. Find cheaper advertising. 2. Improve your organic conversion rate so that you have a reasonable chance to profit from investing in ads.
The discussion of things like how FTP and other option might effect conversion rate is to find a solution to raise the conversion rate so that it is rational to try and throw ad money at it because you will then have data that suggests it will have a positive ROI.
Issue is that advertising is always a risk, but a necessary one. Is it really that expensive to have a YouTube or Rumble commercial? Depending on the channel it might be worth it for a commercial. Though, I'm not sure if HTC is large enough to handle a mass inflow of 2,000 2 weekers but we would see a huge shift in the #s and I recon that atleast 10% would subscribe for more than one month. So If 200 subscribed lets say, it would be an additional 3k per month at 36k per year if they all stayed (hypothetical). A massive influx of players would bring huge fights and bring many older players back in the game to subscribe. If we had 300 players in the MA, it would bring huge fights and I think could have a large impact overall on the game.
Issue is that there is virtually no advertising, Steam isn't really the best target market IMO because most of Steam are kids who aren't gonna pay $15 and are very nitpicky on what the game should offer. HTC just isn't big enough to handle those concerns. Marketing to the older community would actually probably be more effective, and the older community mostly still watches television and youtube videos.
BTW Fugitive, I believe I was one of the first to methion free EW planes, and have expressed it a few times. I think it would be absolutely great for many many reasons regarding game play and letting people try the game again in the MA after a while if they wanted. Unfortunately, that would also effect the bottom line in the shortrun, and not sure if monetarily its the right thing, that being said, we'd see much better #s, have much more to shoot at, create bigger fights, but it would also really encourage players to subscribe to get to fly the good planes. The thing with video games is, you have to risk a lot just to get people in the door before you make any money and with all of the "FTP" games out there, a subscription is very tough to compete without giving the players enough time to learn it. I had always thought the MA was a very tough place to learn the game to learn AH, which is why I really liked H2H for quick action fighting, but for some strange reason, team death match and FFA custom arenas just aren't picking up, I'm not sure if that's due to people not seeing the Tabs at the top of the clipboard or what. If we could find a way to bring in players for Match Play severs it would really help new guys but I'm not sure why they aren't picking up.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: oboe on October 18, 2023, 11:33:22 AM
I'm trying to think of a way to use an existing system to make a subset of planes and vehicles available to non-paying accounts. What about using ENY? For example, all non-paying accounts could have access to any vehicle or plane with ENY 35 or greater. That's quite a few vehicles and planes and includes some very fun-to-fly planes.
ENY values have already been set for every plane and vehicle in the game, and there is already logic to disable ('red out') choices in the hangar listing based on ENY-balancing. All Hitech would have to do is modify this logic to add an 'account type' flag to distinguish paying from non-paying accounts, and disable selections below ENY 35 for non-paying accounts - they same way they are disabled for purposes of side-balancing. Or maybe even have them show up in the hangar listing in grey rather than red text, to be more clear about why certain vehicles are disabled.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: CptTrips on October 18, 2023, 12:19:20 PM
Issue is that advertising is always a risk, but a necessary one.
It's never necessary to lose money.
I’m not sure where you get your 10% number. Faith? HT stated he used to get 10-12% but is only getting 1% now. That was at the Steam launch. Have you seen anything that would make you think that percentage has improved?
I disagree with you about Steam. The Steam launch was THE most targeted advertising possible. A platform of known money spenders, known gamers, a platform where millions of dollars of IL2, DCS, MSFS are sold. They had a page with a full description of the game to review. Pictures, videos, etc.
If you couldn’t move the needle there, no other less targeted media is going to do better. I still maintain you will never find a more targeted venue for exposure and if it didn’t work there, you need to fix why before bothering anywhere else. Shrug. Prove me wrong. As I said, I’d love to see AH get back up to 350 players.
But HTC has always been data driven on their decision making. Their current data tells them the conversion rate is too low to justify the ad expense. If you can show him different data, he might come to a different conclusion. If you truly have faith in that 10% conversion rate estimate, get the video guys here to put together a great ad and setup a Go-Fund-Me to give HTC a free ad buy and give it a try (like with a special discount code for tracking).
If you showed him your 10% estimate is correct, he will reevaluate his decision and find the capital to keep that going. Wouldn’t you be willing to do that to get 600 players back in the arena?
Things like youtube and Instagram, Twitter would fall into option 1. Cheaper advertising. But cheaper advertising is cheaper for a reason. But if it’s free, there is no harm to HTC. He is not having to use his kids college money to throw at ads that aren’t going to work. That is why I have always said, fine, make user videos if you want. That costs nothing and does no harm. Probably won’t have much effect either.
The problem is, AH’s charms are not readily apparent in a visual medium. It frankly doesn’t stack up well visually against other AAA titles. You’d have to play AH for months (and probably an event) to truly appreciate what AH has to offer beneath. That’s why a FTP set would be so much better than a two-week trial.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Animl-AW on October 20, 2023, 07:04:29 PM
Ya', I've just spent some time reading DCS forums.
I have never in my life of sims seen so many posts about bugs, and even hacks. I'm not exaggerating.
Great graphics, but their developers seem to be error prone. The image I get from reading all that is Swiss Cheese programming.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Animl-AW on October 20, 2023, 07:37:08 PM
Only thing that is going to bring more players into the game now that is noticeable is to have another commercial on TV and/or youtube and Rumble. This is simply no marketing at all for this game and I still believe most haven't heard of it. It's a very niche game and the subscription prevents many people from trying the game again in the MA after a couple of months. People just aren't gonna pay $15 if they maybe want to play the game just to try it again where most of the action is.
Making quality videos, and sharing them, is your own real marketing. Commercials just don't yield the expected return. For a while many games tried it, they all seemed to have vacated that concept. If the videos look bad, the game looks bad. Why I put myself through that learning process. The easiest way to make quality videos. That also was over shadowed, as designed, by crazyville accusations.
I have different ideas about pricing. But this thread already went off the rails. Any change can draw new players, or not. My idea was meant for current players. Things like less radar, the current helps newbies adjust to SA, but the more seasoned pilots seem to prefer to tone it back.
My fleeting idea, out of a cup of morning coffee, was pretty much just more realistic arena settings, and/or disable easy mode. When we see where the main flock goes to, pretty much solves the issue of radar settings and what the masses really prefer. That's just an example. It was NOT a marketing idea. It could just have a marketing effect as by-product.
Interpretation of my post intentionally went off the rails in a 101 hijacking by a specific party.
The problem with posting anything containing "new players" is it becomes a blurring list of 1000 other ways, and the opportunity for doomsayers post the end of the world.
The problem with ME posting anything about "new players" is perceived as an ego trip by those non-players who fly other sims who stated they hope I don't succeed. Of course they don't. So, if I interpret the comments, anyone who does anything to help the game is on an ego trip, or is that selective due to chemistry conflicts? In all my days in sims, this has never been said to me until now. That speaks volumes as to the source.
It was a fleeting idea that could have possibilities to solve some complaint issues, that would not require much time from HT coding....if any at all. The concept of "both worlds can exist at the same time". An arena with settings more towards RL. Again. It was not so much about marketing, other than a possible byproduct.
Some people tend to read too much into a lot of what I post. What I say is what I mean, no more, no less. No smoke and mirrors.
Title: Re: Arena idea FR & RR
Post by: Animl-AW on October 21, 2023, 07:14:17 AM
This game is done, in regards to development, enjoy it as it is or don't. It's pretty simple.
The impression Jimmy had with HT visit, and a few convos I had with HT months back, I got the same impression that development may not be over. I’m glad it wasn’t just my own imagination. Private convos are always confidential, I won’t repeat how I got the impression. Time will tell, no commitment was made. But I wouldn’t be wasting my time if I believed it is 100% dead.
I think its perfectly acceptable to have hope.
I think it was healthy for HT these last several months on several levels. Feeling appreciated during negative times can have a positive effect. We have some good peeps here. I’m honored he trusted some enough to open up to us, and me personally. We had similar experiences, mine being a bit more harsh. Its hard to listen to. Things can always be worse. The showings of love helps with coping. Life will have its way with us, however it pleases. Everything is survivable, except death. He has over cone a lot. I believe in HT. I have not fully accepted its dead, I’m aware of the human spirit and comebacks are always possible, as long as the will exist.
This is a tight community, I have doubts it can be duplicated.