So if China had a military assistance treaty with Mexico and slapped troops in Mexico... no problem?
Saw what our response was to Russia Cuba missile installment was....
Weird how the mess was started by one administration skipped an administration then was immediately engaged when the original administration was reinstall...
Eagler
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: rabbidrabbit on April 30, 2024, 08:38:40 AM
Saw what our response was to Russia Cuba missile installment was....
Weird how the mess was started by one administration skipped an administration then was immediately engaged when the original administration was reinstall...
Eagler
Odd... not.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Eagler on April 30, 2024, 08:46:34 AM
Did I say he is a bot? No I did not. Don't troll me because of your political views.
Bot is the term most here use for anyone who is against this conflict...
It was a serious question..what is incorrect in your opinion from those two videos..not trolling here..I respect your input
Eagler
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on April 30, 2024, 09:06:54 PM
RFK Jr. is an absolute raging leftist. Stone is unhinged.
That's not to say that there were not people in the U.S. government deeply involved in the corruption in Ukraine. There are. From both parties.
However, Russia invaded Ukraine for the same reason they invaded Georgia. They want to "reclaim" what they believe is their territory and their glory. Russia is absolutely still bent on expansion. They're the same people who were in charge when Russia invaded Poland in 1939. And Afghanistan in 1979. All communism demands expansionism, just like any other form of totalitarianism. China wants Taiwan. They both see weakness, incompetence, and cowardice.
I'm opposed to the invasion of Ukraine. And I'm opposed to a Russian victory. It doesn't mean I'm a fan of the current government of Ukraine. It doesn't mean I'm a fan of unlimited funds for Ukraine, or funds without accountability and transparency. It means that I fully recognize Russia, China, and Iran as the worst of the "bad guys", and I'm in favor of them being held in check. Appeasement never works. It's a lesson people need to learn. Remember what happened when Chamberlain and friends appeased the nutty painter with the weird mustache?
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Devil 505 on April 30, 2024, 09:45:12 PM
RFK Jr. is an absolute raging leftist. Stone is unhinged.
That's not to say that there were not people in the U.S. government deeply involved in the corruption in Ukraine. There are. From both parties.
However, Russia invaded Ukraine for the same reason they invaded Georgia. They want to "reclaim" what they believe is their territory and their glory. Russia is absolutely still bent on expansion. They're the same people who were in charge when Russia invaded Poland in 1939. And Afghanistan in 1979. All communism demands expansionism, just like any other form of totalitarianism. China wants Taiwan. They both see weakness, incompetence, and cowardice.
I'm opposed to the invasion of Ukraine. And I'm opposed to a Russian victory. It doesn't mean I'm a fan of the current government of Ukraine. It doesn't mean I'm a fan of unlimited funds for Ukraine, or funds without accountability and transparency. It means that I fully recognize Russia, China, and Iran as the worst of the "bad guys", and I'm in favor of them being held in check. Appeasement never works. It's a lesson people need to learn. Remember what happened when Chamberlain and friends appeased the nutty painter with the weird mustache?
Very well put together analysis, I'd say. History has shown several times megalomaniac madmen do not stop, if they get what they want. Greed is in such a level, it can never be satisfied. Better stop him now than in real, total WW III. Best what we could wish, is the same happening to Putin what happened to Stalin March 5, 1953, in Kuntsevo Dacha.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Eagler on May 01, 2024, 07:25:33 AM
So there was a peaceful resolution that was discarded b4 this endless war started because we destroyed it?
Did we overthrow the election because we didn't like it's outcome?
You seem to jump straight to the invasion forgetting what some say lead up to it and it's possible avoidance...
Did the comic run on the platform that he'd sign the peace agreement only to be talked out of it by us after he won?
Looks to me like some US warhawks - that Victoria beetch for one - won and we are where we are today because we didn't give that agreement a chance
If war wasn't so profitable for some maybe it would be avoided more
The pay to protest Gaza in college campuses is just a distraction for this ... and it works
Eagler
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: AKIron on May 01, 2024, 08:08:00 AM
Universities being shut down by their own indoctrination policies. No more indoctrination. A self-correcting issue.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Eagler on May 01, 2024, 08:46:25 AM
Do we really care what spoiled college age children say on anything? Or the organization who is funding this chaos?
It's to take the latest 20 year war news off the front page...
See USF yesterday on how that noise should be handled..
Eagler
I sure don't care. Close the indoctrination camps down permanently.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: RotBaron on May 01, 2024, 12:26:44 PM
Congress has ~18% approval rating and a ~96% re-election rate. This current episode of history would make Shakespeare blush.
Giving the most corrupt nation in Europe $150 billion with zero accountability requirements :rofl
“Lend-Lease” :rofl So well marketed to the customer (your taxes) that they threw out the lease part and made the lend part just keep it (or even sell it). <insert shrug emoji>
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Busher on May 01, 2024, 05:43:02 PM
RFK Jr. is an absolute raging leftist. Stone is unhinged.
That's not to say that there were not people in the U.S. government deeply involved in the corruption in Ukraine. There are. From both parties.
However, Russia invaded Ukraine for the same reason they invaded Georgia. They want to "reclaim" what they believe is their territory and their glory. Russia is absolutely still bent on expansion. They're the same people who were in charge when Russia invaded Poland in 1939. And Afghanistan in 1979. All communism demands expansionism, just like any other form of totalitarianism. China wants Taiwan. They both see weakness, incompetence, and cowardice.
I'm opposed to the invasion of Ukraine. And I'm opposed to a Russian victory. It doesn't mean I'm a fan of the current government of Ukraine. It doesn't mean I'm a fan of unlimited funds for Ukraine, or funds without accountability and transparency. It means that I fully recognize Russia, China, and Iran as the worst of the "bad guys", and I'm in favor of them being held in check. Appeasement never works. It's a lesson people need to learn. Remember what happened when Chamberlain and friends appeased the nutty painter with the weird mustache?
Sorry to correct but it was Germany's invasion of Poland in 1939 that started World War 2 - Russia did not control Poland until the end of the war when they thrilled the Poles by adding them to the USSR.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on May 01, 2024, 06:00:19 PM
So there was a peaceful resolution that was discarded b4 this endless war started because we destroyed it?
Did we overthrow the election because we didn't like it's outcome?
You seem to jump straight to the invasion forgetting what some say lead up to it and it's possible avoidance...
Did the comic run on the platform that he'd sign the peace agreement only to be talked out of it by us after he won?
Looks to me like some US warhawks - that Victoria beetch for one - won and we are where we are today because we didn't give that agreement a chance
If war wasn't so profitable for some maybe it would be avoided more
The pay to protest Gaza in college campuses is just a distraction for this ... and it works
Eagler
You fail to understand. Putin was looking for a reason and an opportunity. The "reason" was Ukraine asking to be in NATO. The opportunity was the incompetent coward in the white house, put there by the exact same handlers as his old boss.
You actually answered your own question when you asked why this administration, but not the one previous, but also the one before that Try pattern recognition. It usually works to resolve a lot of things. History tends to repeat itself because we have so many fools who love to ignore it, and so many evil people happy the fools ignore it.
The campus unrest is absolutely bought and paid for. By communists. Look at the material laying around the "protests".
The biggest reason to care what the indoctrinated young minions have to say is because they're being groomed to vote collectivist and globalist, and have been, in ever increasing numbers, for decades. Why do you think there was a drive to get them all in college?
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: AKIron on May 01, 2024, 06:00:29 PM
Now I want to watch "The Pianist" again.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on May 01, 2024, 06:07:04 PM
Sorry to correct but it was Germany's invasion of Poland in 1939 that started World War 2 - Russia did not control Poland until the end of the war when they thrilled the Poles by adding them to the USSR.
The invasion of Poland occurred specifically because Stalin and Hitler allied themselves. Hitler needed the continent under control, and Stalin greedily and gleefully jumped on the opportunity. Had Stalin not agreed, with a leering hungry eye on what would become the "eastern bloc", Hitler would not likely have started the invasion of Poland. Sure, it was never a solid or long term alliance, but it was an alliance, and for the reasons I stated. With the effects I stated.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: mechanic on May 01, 2024, 06:21:08 PM
Ukraine war right now only has two outcomes
1. full defeat of Ukraine within the next 7 months
2. Nato joins and more people die pointlessly, escalating WW3
The western propaganda of the brave Ukrainians, holding back the Russians, is nonsense. Ukraine has been gutted like a fish.
I tend to agree with Eagler. I think that when the Ukrainians realise how they have been used by the West they are likely to join the reds for revenge. The comedian president needs to be strung up in the street for all the blood on his hands. And stick nato leaders up there too for warmongering and chasing profit at the cost of other's lives.
The plan backfired horribly. This war has strengthened Russian unity. Has shown the Leadership in the Kremlin to be ruthless and unintimidated. Has not really hurt their economy. Nor their military. They used a whole bunch of obsolete cold war kit and still walked all over eastern Ukraine.
You have to a be a real fanboi of mainstream media to think Russia is simply evil or that she has done anything unprovoked in the last 3 years. And as an American, you'd have to also be a hypocrite to believe any of what they feed you on TV, considering the USA has invaded or been involved in conflicts in over 180 countries in her short history.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Busher on May 01, 2024, 06:42:49 PM
The invasion of Poland occurred specifically because Stalin and Hitler allied themselves. Hitler needed the continent under control, and Stalin greedily and gleefully jumped on the opportunity. Had Stalin not agreed, with a leering hungry eye on what would become the "eastern bloc", Hitler would not likely have started the invasion of Poland. Sure, it was never a solid or long term alliance, but it was an alliance, and for the reasons I stated. With the effects I stated.
Clearly we studied the history of World War 2 at different schools.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: TryHard on May 01, 2024, 07:05:29 PM
The western propaganda of the brave Ukrainians, holding back the Russians, is nonsense. Ukraine has been gutted like a fish.
The plan backfired horribly. This war has strengthened Russian unity. Has shown the Leadership in the Kremlin to be ruthless and unintimidated. Has not really hurt their economy. Nor their military. They used a whole bunch of obsolete cold war kit and still walked all over eastern Ukraine.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Russia said it would take Kyiv in 3 days, its been 2 years.... Russia starter another offensive in a different area which stalled and turned into WW1 trench combat with drones. Russia STILL doesn't have air superiority 2 years after the start of the invasion against a country with a handful of fighter aircraft.
Now im not saying we should be funneling money to it that money pit but Russia is gotten their teeth kicked in on this one there is no denying that...
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: knorB on May 01, 2024, 07:32:47 PM
Russia said it would take Kyiv in 3 days, its been 2 years.... Russia starter another offensive in a different area which stalled and turned into WW1 trench combat with drones. Russia STILL doesn't have air superiority 2 years after the start of the invasion against a country with a handful of fighter aircraft.
Now im not saying we should be funneling money to it that money pit but Russia is gotten their teeth kicked in on this one there is no denying that...
I was told the T-14 was the ultimate tank... where is it. The SU-57 is the baddest thing with wings... and yet no air dominance.
They do have zerg figured out though.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: mechanic on May 01, 2024, 07:55:35 PM
Russia said it would take Kyiv in 3 days, its been 2 years.... Russia starter another offensive in a different area which stalled and turned into WW1 trench combat with drones. Russia STILL doesn't have air superiority 2 years after the start of the invasion against a country with a handful of fighter aircraft.
Now im not saying we should be funneling money to it that money pit but Russia is gotten their teeth kicked in on this one there is no denying that...
I don't personally agree. My work places me in the middle of a global community and as such I have close friends from many nations including Russia and including Ukraine. Both of those nations tell me that the media is lying to the west. My Ukrainian friends tell me Ukraine is a stupid country, at war with itself more than anyone else.
Ukraine has been stomped and has no manpower left. What would anyone expect when a giant with one hundred and fifty million people are at war with a nation of just thirty seven million?
https://uawar.net/stats - this link is a classic example of propaganda. The Rus loses tab shows some numbers. The Ukr tab shows nothing and shouts in bold red letter 'HEROES DONT DIE!' Oh, and of course under that is a link where you can 'donate to save lives!'
Reuters reported that the death/wounded toll stands thus:
Russia: 315,000 Ukraine: 70,000
Who in their right mind would believe that? Russia has more of everything. Even with all the Nato and US stockpiles that have been wasted, Ukraine cannot maintain an artillery war. Russia on the other hand has massive production capabilities for munitions. Far greater than any European nation or the USA.
In some regions of Ukraine the Russians were welcomed as liberators by some of the population.
More ridiculous statistics from the BBC, that wonderful British company that employs and shelters child molesters.
Russia: 180,000 killed Ukraine: 31,000 killed
Just how anyone could believe that is beyond me.
I do not claim to know the true statistics. But my guess would be somewhat equal. Relatively modern armies using quite similar level tech. It's been a true war of attrition so far and these next few months is where we will see that Russian capacity for attrition is greater the Ukraine's.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: GasTeddy on May 02, 2024, 01:39:33 AM
^ I live in SE Europe, not so far from Ukraine. My town has lots of Ukrainian refugees, most of them Russian speaking, who for some reason run away from their liberators. What they tell, slightly differs from your opinion.
I know people who are/have been there. As military trainers, combatants, intelligence officers and aid workers. Those people include friends, acquittances and even some close relatives. What they tell, also differs from your opinions.
Putin has been using exactly same tactics than Hitler and Stalin did. Lots of falsified news, propaganda and lies, to justify his actions. And did Hitler stop or Stalin give up voluntarily?
Clearly we studied the history of World War 2 at different schools.
Well, there are many kind of truths. The truth of the winner, truth of the looser, the real happenings and then Soviet/Russian truth. But Soviets backstabbed Poles 1939 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland), what ever your history teacher has said.
But, may everyone became blessed in their faith.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 02, 2024, 06:45:42 AM
What's going on in Ukraine is a direct result of the 2014 Soros and Kolimoisky coup and then the UN failing to do anything about it for 10 years while Putin asked them countless time for mitigation on the situation. Listen to his interview with Tucker if you haven't.
Secondly, it's a direct result of the election fraud voting In a dementia patient whose been involved with Ukraine for a decade atleast while his son worked in Ukraine for Burisma doing God knows what. Too bad our corrupt communist coward intelligence agencies won't tell the America what else was on his laptop except the sex and drug abuse which is really just a look here not there scheme. As they shrug off bobulinski. That's how you know they are corrupt to the core, as they hamstring the #1 republican president with trials during an election campaign.
Thirdly, the west and UN and China are responsible for the funding of bioweapons that killed hundreds of millions of people. Russia exposed 6 top officials involved with that. Meanwhile they ignored that and attacked Trump every day with a kill count saying it was his fault to sow distrust in the president and use that to get their dementia patient elected. Cowards.
Fourthly, Putin is not a Soviet communist. Infact the west is far more communist now than Russia. Putin kicked out many soviets who were globalist satanist. While he may indulge in some russian communist aspects like love of country, community of people, and how tight they were together as a group, he doesn't push the economic communist socialist theory. The country is far better off now than it's ever been. Unlike Ukraine, whose turned to hard crap since the coup, just like everything the left/west takes over.
Imo, the current UN and global establishment trying to create a world government is far more expansionist than Russia. We have no reason to be in Ukraine. Just like Russia had no reason to be in Cuba at time. Do we want Russians on the Mexico border building quiet weapons for quiet wars on our border like the UN and NATO is quietly doing? I don't think so.
Let's go blow up more gas pipelines, blame them on someone else, and then call us the good guys. Just like the damn caliphate and suicide bombings, knifing, and shooting random people. War has no honor anymore.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: rabbidrabbit on May 02, 2024, 08:15:10 AM
What's going on in Ukraine is a direct result of the 2014 Soros and Kolimoisky coup and then the UN failing to do anything about it for 10 years while Putin asked them countless time for mitigation on the situation. Listen to his interview with Tucker if you haven't.
Secondly, it's a direct result of the election fraud voting In a dementia patient whose been involved with Ukraine for a decade atleast while his son worked in Ukraine for Burisma doing God knows what. Too bad our corrupt communist coward intelligence agencies won't tell the America what else was on his laptop except the sex and drug abuse which is really just a look here not there scheme. As they shrug off bobulinski. That's how you know they are corrupt to the core, as they hamstring the #1 republican president with trials during an election campaign.
Thirdly, the west and UN and China are responsible for the funding of bioweapons that killed hundreds of millions of people. Russia exposed 6 top officials involved with that. Meanwhile they ignored that and attacked Trump every day with a kill count saying it was his fault to sow distrust in the president and use that to get their dementia patient elected. Cowards.
Fourthly, Putin is not a Soviet communist. Infact the west is far more communist now than Russia. Putin kicked out many soviets who were globalist satanist. While he may indulge in some russian communist aspects like love of country, community of people, and how tight they were together as a group, he doesn't push the economic communist socialist theory. The country is far better off now than it's ever been. Unlike Ukraine, whose turned to hard crap since the coup, just like everything the left/west takes over.
Imo, the current UN and global establishment trying to create a world government is far more expansionist than Russia. We have no reason to be in Ukraine. Just like Russia had no reason to be in Cuba at time. Do we want Russians on the Mexico border building quiet weapons for quiet wars on our border like the UN and NATO is quietly doing? I don't think so.
Let's go blow up more gas pipelines, blame them on someone else, and then call us the good guys. Just like the damn caliphate and suicide bombings, knifing, and shooting random people. War has no honor anymore.
This a great summation of what Russian IO has been pushing to western audiences.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: mechanic on May 02, 2024, 08:41:00 AM
^ I live in SE Europe, not so far from Ukraine. My town has lots of Ukrainian refugees, most of them Russian speaking, who for some reason run away from their liberators. What they tell, slightly differs from your opinion.
I know people who are/have been there. As military trainers, combatants, intelligence officers and aid workers. Those people include friends, acquittances and even some close relatives. What they tell, also differs from your opinions.
Putin has been using exactly same tactics than Hitler and Stalin did. Lots of falsified news, propaganda and lies, to justify his actions. And did Hitler stop or Stalin give up voluntarily?
Well, there are many kind of truths. The truth of the winner, truth of the looser, the real happenings and then Soviet/Russian truth. But Soviets backstabbed Poles 1939 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland), what ever your history teacher has said.
But, may everyone became blessed in their faith.
You certainly have a good source of info there and I wont argue against it. Only to say that of course different people have different views even on their own country's politics.
It does seem likely that many Ukrainian refugees fled Russia invasion to avoid Russians. But it is also true that many Ukrainians fled Ukraine to avoid being drafted into Zelensky's suicidal war.
Western media lies. Russian media lies. All media lies.
It doesn't make us Putin sympathisers to try and gain an impartial standpoint in the midst of all the media nonsense that assails us from every direction at once.
My point is about battlefield casualties. Believing that UKR has been achieving a 6-1 kill ratio against the RUS war machine seems absurd to me. Also that I believe Eagler's OP is accurate in so much as the West contributing to the starting of the current tragedy.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Eagler on May 02, 2024, 08:53:02 AM
We know how russian and China media lie...what many don't realize if that the American press is just as full of it given specific subjects...they are just as bias and become a propaganda tool for the government when it's controlled by the lunacy we have there now...
For that reason I don't believe anything these days outright as they have an agenda...and it's not all about truth in reporting sadly
Eagler
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 02, 2024, 10:32:08 AM
This a great summation of what Russian IO has been pushing to western audiences.
No, it's not. And thinking this is exactly why we are at war. Ie, "we didn't do nuffin, it's all the ruskies, burisma and Hunter and Bobulinski are all lies and American leadership is clean as a whistle, it's everyone else".
I sure as hell don't trust American media, why should I after the last 10 years? Why should I trust the UN establishment after Covid? Sorry, but we are too advanced now as a society to be mocked and lied to while yall try to turn around and call every thing Russia says as propaganda.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: rabbidrabbit on May 02, 2024, 10:47:18 AM
No, it's not. And thinking this is exactly why we are at war. Ie, "we didn't do nuffin, it's all the ruskies, burisma and Hunter and Bobulinski are all lies and American leadership is clean as a whistle, it's everyone else".
I sure as hell don't trust American media, why should I after the last 10 years? Why should I trust the UN establishment after Covid? Sorry, but we are too advanced now as a society to be mocked and lied to while yall try to turn around and call every thing Russia says as propaganda.
I agree we should not trust US media as well as any other. It's safe to say almost all news has at least some bias and must be vetted against observable fact and accounts from different sides of the event in question.
There in is the point I made as your basis of fact aligns with Russian IO towards western audiences almost perfectly which should give you reason to question the legitimacy of your sources.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Eagler on May 02, 2024, 10:56:03 AM
I question all sources equally
Like many I have lost all faith in our own media
It makes it very difficult to separate fact from agenda driven fiction...
Eagler
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Gman on May 02, 2024, 12:17:20 PM
I don't personally agree. My work places me in the middle of a global community and as such I have close friends from many nations including Russia and including Ukraine. Both of those nations tell me that the media is lying to the west. My Ukrainian friends tell me Ukraine is a stupid country, at war with itself more than anyone else.
Ukraine has been stomped and has no manpower left. What would anyone expect when a giant with one hundred and fifty million people are at war with a nation of just thirty seven million?
https://uawar.net/stats - this link is a classic example of propaganda. The Rus loses tab shows some numbers. The Ukr tab shows nothing and shouts in bold red letter 'HEROES DONT DIE!' Oh, and of course under that is a link where you can 'donate to save lives!'
Reuters reported that the death/wounded toll stands thus:
Russia: 315,000 Ukraine: 70,000
Who in their right mind would believe that? Russia has more of everything. Even with all the Nato and US stockpiles that have been wasted, Ukraine cannot maintain an artillery war. Russia on the other hand has massive production capabilities for munitions. Far greater than any European nation or the USA.
In some regions of Ukraine the Russians were welcomed as liberators by some of the population.
More ridiculous statistics from the BBC, that wonderful British company that employs and shelters child molesters.
Russia: 180,000 killed Ukraine: 31,000 killed
Just how anyone could believe that is beyond me.
I do not claim to know the true statistics. But my guess would be somewhat equal. Relatively modern armies using quite similar level tech. It's been a true war of attrition so far and these next few months is where we will see that Russian capacity for attrition is greater the Ukraine's.
So well said Batfink.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Vulcan on May 02, 2024, 04:32:28 PM
Who in their right mind would believe that? Russia has more of everything. Even with all the Nato and US stockpiles that have been wasted, Ukraine cannot maintain an artillery war. Russia on the other hand has massive production capabilities for munitions. Far greater than any European nation or the USA.
It's not hard to see why when the russians are using their 2nd tier equipment, and sending poorly trained and equipped conscripts, and the unit structure has been shown to be lacking. Not to mention the problem russian command seems to have with 3rd story windows.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Meatwad on May 02, 2024, 05:46:50 PM
It's not hard to see why when the russians are using their 2nd tier equipment, and sending poorly trained and equipped conscripts, and the unit structure has been shown to be lacking. Not to mention the problem russian command seems to have with 3rd story windows.
They have a very high suicide rate for some reason
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: mechanic on May 02, 2024, 07:36:36 PM
All powerful institutes murder the competition as a matter of course. It's hardly objective to mention that Russian power is also maintained in such a manner. Indeed, some nations have partially switched to falsely accusing competitors of sex crimes or paedophilia. Death seems preferable.
Vulcan you could be right, I'm just another armchair opinion. But my instinct tells me it's not that simple. My gut feeling tells me that Russia is doing very well. Ukraine is destroyed. The west wants to put spin to make Russia look less like a capable opponent than they really are.
Even if what we want to believe is true, that the Russian military is incompetent, it would appear now that they are getting first hand experience of fighting a modern war against equally equipped enemies. So I would presume their abilities are being honed to a razor edge. Unless we are to also believe that Russians are stupid, backwards, cave dwelling idiots who just so happen to have the world's largest nuclear arsenal. Actually, that would be even more terrifying.
The truth that I see is that the Russian nation is very smart, very patient, largely united under a strong leader and doing everything it can to achieve it's objectives without causing undue bloodshed. They have the capabilities to level the entire country in a matter of hours even without the nuclear option. Yet so far, they have not.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: rabbidrabbit on May 02, 2024, 07:47:06 PM
All powerful institutes murder the competition as a matter of course. It's hardly objective to mention that Russian power is also maintained in such a manner. Indeed, some nations have partially switched to falsely accusing competitors of sex crimes or paedophilia. Death seems preferable.
Vulcan you could be right, I'm just another armchair opinion. But my instinct tells me it's not that simple. My gut feeling tells me that Russia is doing very well. Ukraine is destroyed. The west wants to put spin to make Russia look less like a capable opponent than they really are.
Even if what we want to believe is true, that the Russian military is incompetent, it would appear now that they are getting first hand experience of fighting a modern war against equally equipped enemies. So I would presume their abilities are being honed to a razor edge. Unless we are to also believe that Russians are stupid, backwards, cave dwelling idiots who just so happen to have the world's largest nuclear arsenal. Actually, that would be even more terrifying.
The truth that I see is that the Russian nation is very smart, very patient, largely united under a strong leader and doing everything it can to achieve it's objectives without causing undue bloodshed. They have the capabilities to level the entire country in a matter of hours even without the nuclear option. Yet so far, they have not.
If your assumptions were accurate this war would have been over two years ago and it's a long way from being so today unless something materially changes. The reality from what I can see is Russia is a dumpster fire in many ways but they outnumber and out equip the Ukes who are dependent on spotty foreign support for materials. The reality is Russia will take years to own as much Uke land as they did over two years ago at this rate and their documented losses are indeed very high. That is why, despite massively out numbering the Ukes in men and material the war is where it is with Russia struggling to utilize that advantage to gain ground and the Ukes struggling to fight back. It has essentially been a peer to peer struggle with each side having advantages in different areas over time and both desperately trying to gain advantage.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Eagler on May 03, 2024, 07:40:37 AM
Seems like an odd strategy to get into a fight where you know you will definitely lose without neverending outside support...how naive are you or is it a $$$$ thing..
No one has answered my question if the comic won the election running under the pretense that he was going to sign an agreement with putin but was told by the US after he won to tear it up?
We seem to be collecting global war buddies these days...why is the question
Peace
Eagler
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Eviscerate on May 03, 2024, 07:48:14 AM
Seems like an odd strategy to get into a fight where you know you will definitely lose without neverending outside support...how naive are you or is it a $$$$ thing..
"get into a fight" is weird wording for being the target of a full scale military invasion.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Eagler on May 03, 2024, 08:21:45 AM
"get into a fight" is weird wording for being the target of a full scale military invasion.
Did Mr z have a way out or not?
Seems some say he did and choose not to take it...or was instructed not to take it...or said he would then changed his mind for some reason..who really knows but the comic himself..
If peace was signed tomorrow...would you then be for billions of taxpayers dollars to rebuilt another corrupt Ukraine from the rubble it looks to be today?
Just never understood the exit plan but the good ole us doesn't seem to need one of those anymore...see Afghanistan and Iraq for latest examples
Eagler
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: mechanic on May 03, 2024, 08:34:05 AM
If your assumptions were accurate this war would have been over two years ago and it's a long way from being so today unless something materially changes. The reality from what I can see is Russia is a dumpster fire in many ways but they outnumber and out equip the Ukes who are dependent on spotty foreign support for materials. The reality is Russia will take years to own as much Uke land as they did over two years ago at this rate and their documented losses are indeed very high. That is why, despite massively out numbering the Ukes in men and material the war is where it is with Russia struggling to utilize that advantage to gain ground and the Ukes struggling to fight back. It has essentially been a peer to peer struggle with each side having advantages in different areas over time and both desperately trying to gain advantage.
You could be right. Time will tell I guess.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: CptTrips on May 03, 2024, 08:40:12 AM
I guess we should have just surrendered to the Emperor of Japan rather than fight. Has there ever been a dictator you didn't have a reflexive instinct to kneel before and surrender to?
Your premise is essentially you believe there was corruption in the Ukraine government, therefore you are OK with Russia invading them. Then you say there is corruption in our government. I can only assume you'd be OK with Putin invading Alaska.
I mean if there is any corruption in a a country, it is OK for Putin to invade them, right? I guess because there is no corruption in Russia.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Eagler on May 03, 2024, 08:58:08 AM
I guess we should have just surrendered to the Emperor of Japan rather than fight. Has there ever been a dictator you didn't have a reflexive instinct to kneel before and surrender to?
Your premise is essentially you believe there was corruption in the Ukraine government, therefore you are OK with Russia invading them. Then you say there is corruption in our government. I can only assume you'd be OK with Putin invading Alaska.
I mean if there is any corruption in a a country, it is OK for Putin to invade them, right? I guess because there is no corruption in Russia.
Never stated that at all..
Did the dancing comic have a peaceful way out or not?
Seems the entire thing is about nato missiles in Ukraine..we want them there and Russia doesn't
The comparison of that scenario with the United States already happened in the 60's and the United States was willing to do the same thing Russia seems to have been forced into and is now the bad guy...
Same question...you guys ready to rebuild what seems to have been one of the most corrupt nations with billions of your tax dollars while illegal immigration, record crime and our own financial future are in jeopardy?
Israel can go pound sand too imo
Eagler
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: CptTrips on May 03, 2024, 09:06:04 AM
Did the dancing comic have a peaceful way out or not?
A victim always has the option to surrender to an attacker. Should we have surrendered to the Emperor of Japan after Pearl Harbor?
Yes, Zelinsky was a comic in a past profession. Does that justify his country being invaded? (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQUXUaznZkccMvWrk0PC6cyi7l2DJkAs6Xy9z35PxSAaQ&s)
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 03, 2024, 09:18:32 AM
A victim always has the option to surrender to an attacker. Should we have surrendered to the Emperor of Japan after Pearl Harbor?
Yes, Zelinsky was a comic in a past profession. Does that justify his country being invaded? (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQUXUaznZkccMvWrk0PC6cyi7l2DJkAs6Xy9z35PxSAaQ&s)
HI was a US state. Ukraine is not. Big difference.
Zelensky is just a puppet for what ever the deep state tells him to do. If you really think that guy is leading the country, you are crazy. Again, I don't think you guys fully grasp what happened in 2014. If the UN is really there for "peace" they would have gone after corrupt officials in Ukraine and avoided this. Instead they tried to impeach a president for exposing it and calling it a quid pro quo. News flash we never voted on giving Ukraine endless cash with 0 oversight in the first place.
George Soros is a bigger terrorist than Putin, and Soros has admitted in interviews he's economically crushed countries with currency manipulation. He pulls the same communist tactics in all countries just like he's doing with the Palestine campus BS in America. If you think he's a good leader. Ask yourself why Ukraine never improved a decade later after the coup?
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: rabbidrabbit on May 03, 2024, 09:19:04 AM
Did the dancing comic have a peaceful way out or not?
Seems the entire thing is about nato missiles in Ukraine..we want them there and Russia doesn't
The comparison of that scenario with the United States already happened in the 60's and the United States was willing to do the same thing Russia seems to have been forced into and is now the bad guy...
Same question...you guys ready to rebuild what seems to have been one of the most corrupt nations with billions of your tax dollars while illegal immigration, record crime and our own financial future are in jeopardy?
Israel can go pound sand too imo
Eagler
It's hard to have a productive conversation with you when your frame of reference is this distorted. If you can't objectively engage in a conversation what value does it have to you or anyone else?
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Spikes on May 03, 2024, 09:20:47 AM
I guess we should have just surrendered to the Emperor of Japan rather than fight. Has there ever been a dictator you didn't have a reflexive instinct to kneel before and surrender to?
Your premise is essentially you believe there was corruption in the Ukraine government, therefore you are OK with Russia invading them. Then you say there is corruption in our government. I can only assume you'd be OK with Putin invading Alaska.
I mean if there is any corruption in a a country, it is OK for Putin to invade them, right? I guess because there is no corruption in Russia.
I really don't want to open this can of worms too far. Though it is impossible for me not to continually feel the need to point out how many countries USA and Nato have invaded in the last 80 years.
Are you saying it's ok when we do it, but not when Russia does?
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Busher on May 03, 2024, 10:11:33 AM
I really don't want to open this can of worms too far. Though it is impossible for me not to continually feel the need to point out how many countries USA and Nato have invaded in the last 80 years.
Are you saying it's ok when we do it, but not when Russia does?
Okay, how many?
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 03, 2024, 10:11:48 AM
He's not comparing the US to Ukraine, he's comparing Russia attacking Ukraine to Japan attacking the US.
I'm not saying that Ukraine doesn't have a right to fight back. But I am saying that the whole world shouldn't prop up Ukraine in a losing war because its ever inching closer to something bigger once Nato over steps. The US funded itself to take on the Nazis and Japanease. At some point there comes a time when one side loses and must accept a withdraw of land or face major losses of its people and then still lose the land..
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: CptTrips on May 03, 2024, 10:20:03 AM
I really don't want to open this can of worms too far. Though it is impossible for me not to continually feel the need to point out how many countries USA and Nato have invaded in the last 80 years.
Any country where attacks against our homeland were launched from would be justifiably under self-defense.
GW2? Meh. Iffy. Really just finishing up GW1 and Sadaam still refused to comply with the conditions of the last ceasefire. We had a standing UN authorization to use force in Iraq. We exercised our mandate. Did Russia have UN authorization to invade Ukraine? Had military operations against Russia been launched from Ukraine to justify a self-defense argument?
None of our military interventions have been for the purpose of naked territorial acquisition. Putin isn't defending against an attack. He wants that territory and simply wants to take it by force.
You'd have to go back to the Philippine Insurrection to find that for the US, and yes I think were were wrong back in 1899.
And sorry, which countries has NATO invaded for the purposes of land acquisition?
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: CptTrips on May 03, 2024, 10:22:46 AM
I'm not saying that Ukraine doesn't have a right to fight back. But I am saying that the whole world shouldn't prop up Ukraine in a losing war because its ever inching closer to something bigger once Nato over steps. The US funded itself to take on the Nazis and Japanease. At some point there comes a time when one side loses and must accept a withdraw of land or face major losses of its people and then still lose the land..
Are you aware your arguments are almost exactly the same as those who wanted us to not support Britain during the Battle of Britain?
I bet you didn't realize how much you had in common with Joseph Kennedy, Sr. ;)
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: rabbidrabbit on May 03, 2024, 10:43:00 AM
I really don't want to open this can of worms too far. Though it is impossible for me not to continually feel the need to point out how many countries USA and Nato have invaded in the last 80 years.
Are you saying it's ok when we do it, but not when Russia does?
When you are in a position where you have to justify observably very bad behavior by alleging equivalency you have lost your argument. For example, defending raping someone by saying other people raped people does not justify the action you are trying to defend.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 03, 2024, 10:48:18 AM
Are you aware your arguments are almost exactly the same as those who wanted us to not support Britain during the Battle of Britain.
I bet you didn't realize how much you had in common with Joseph Kennedy. ;)
Well we were already in war with Japan, so I could see how going into Europe would feel like a stretch for some people. Though I think Hitler was far more batcrap crazy than Putin. And given Hitlers advances to other countries, not just regions, for far more sinister reasons, I could see why more force was needed to take the regime down. And guess who worked with the ideals of Hitler? Soros, he was there, guess who comitted the coup, Soros, whose using the same tactics on Americans now. Putin doesn't want a war with NATO. Ukraine was not a UN NATO country for a reason. Nefarious actions on the Russian border by globalist activist without the UN stepping in and resolving this corruption is why Putin did what he did. I would allow him to take some regions and then call a truce. If he moves further, than you know he's bluffing. If you don't. This will just never stop and will only escalate and really put millions of European families at risk.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: mechanic on May 03, 2024, 10:50:13 AM
Since the start of the history of the USA, she has initiated in 68 countries, let's say, 'hostile incursions'. You can say 'invasions' if you want to be honest.
If we are to count all sovereign nations that the United States has partaken in 'significant military actions' on the home soil of then shockingly it includes all but three on the planet.
Every nation on the planet except three.
Let that sink in.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Spikes on May 03, 2024, 10:50:43 AM
When you are in a position where you have to justify observably very bad behavior by alleging equivalency you have lost your argument. For example, defending raping someone by saying other people raped people does not justify the action you are trying to defend.
That is not accurate at all.
To use your rapist analogy:
You can either say that Person A and Person B are both rapists.
Or You can say that neither A or B are.
You have the right to state your opinion on what constitutes rape.
What you cannot say is Person A was justified. So it was not rape. But person B was not justified so it was. The same action was committed by both people so what ever your judgment about the action it must apply to both.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: CptTrips on May 03, 2024, 11:00:51 AM
The Battle of Britain happened in 1940, Japan declared war on the U.S. in 1941.
Whoops didn't look it up, it's been a while since I've brushed up my ww2 history. There always anti war people though just look at the current university protests.
So you are ignoring the fact that Soros was a nazi whose being an aggressor on Russians border. Got it.
Wait.
Did Soros launch a column of tanks into Russia? Missiles? Did i miss that part?
Exactly how many regiments are under Soros' command? Do you have a TOE?
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: AKIron on May 03, 2024, 11:33:40 AM
Soros was 14 when made to work for the Nazis. Saw an interview in which he was asked if he had pangs of guilt for helping the Nazis take the Jews possessions. He said he did not. Who here wouldn't feel guilt for collaborating with the murderers of millions of their own people even if they were coerced at 14?
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: rabbidrabbit on May 03, 2024, 11:37:48 AM
You can either say that Person A and Person B are both rapists.
Or You can say that neither A or B are.
You have the right to state your opinion on what constitutes rape.
What you cannot say is Person A was justified. So it was not rape. But person B was not justified so it was. The same action was committed by both people so what ever your judgment about the action it must apply to both.
My point was that Russia's imperialism (rape) stands as a heinous act on it's own merits and making allegations of other (rapes) has nothing to do with Russia's actions. Pointing towards those acts or allegations of is illegitimately justifying something that is unjustifiable. There was no point in bringing up the point otherwise.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: CptTrips on May 03, 2024, 11:59:25 AM
My point was that Russia's imperialism (rape) stands as a heinous act on it's own merits and making allegations of other (rapes) has nothing to do with Russia's actions. Pointing towards those acts or allegations of is illegitimately justifying something that is unjustifiable. There was no point in bringing up the point otherwise.
Quote
"You can't justify bad behavior by pointing at other bad behavior." - Bill O'Reilly
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: mechanic on May 03, 2024, 12:00:56 PM
My point was that Russia's imperialism (rape) stands as a heinous act on it's own merits and making allegations of other (rapes) has nothing to do with Russia's actions. Pointing towards those acts or allegations of is illegitimately justifying something that is unjustifiable. There was no point in bringing up the point otherwise.
It's not about justification. It is about creating an impartial and objective view of geo-politics despite personal nationality.
Any country where attacks against our homeland were launched from would be justifiably under self-defense.
GW2? Meh. Iffy. Really just finishing up GW1 and Sadaam still refused to comply with the conditions of the last ceasefire. We had a standing UN authorization to use force in Iraq. We exercised our mandate. Did Russia have UN authorization to invade Ukraine?
UN has no right to authorize or veto killing people. Self proclaimed authority. But it is alarming that you are able to justify one million dead Iraqis on the grounds of a UN green light.
Quote
Had military operations against Russia been launched from Ukraine to justify a self-defense argument?
Yes. The shadow war has never ended and you know as well as I do that operations by the CIA/MI5 are conducted globally at all times.
Quote
None of our military interventions have been for the purpose of naked territorial acquisition. Putin isn't defending against an attack. He wants that territory and simply wants to take it by force.
I cannot agree with your perspective on Putin's actions.
Quote
You'd have to go back to the Philippine Insurrection to find that for the US, and yes I think were were wrong back in 1899.
If you really believe that was the last time then I have nothing to debate on the subject.
Quote
And sorry, which countries has NATO invaded for the purposes of land acquisition?
C'mon man. Overthrowing a government, installing a puppet and adding a nation to the list of NATO gang members is just another version of territorial expansion.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: GasTeddy on May 03, 2024, 12:07:31 PM
I never cease to be amazed how many Americans find a decency in Putin. Guess they think 5th story windows, airplanes shedding wings and novichok are all just stories.
And a disjointed Cesar Sayoc innuendo vilifies George Soros for life.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Eagler on May 03, 2024, 12:40:19 PM
As no one disputes it, mr.z must have run under the platform of signing a peace agreement, then was told by US after winning his election to ignore that agreement as was outlined in the video at the beginning of this thread...
If Ukraine was OK with peace with putin, why weren't we?
Eagler
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: rabbidrabbit on May 03, 2024, 12:53:40 PM
As no one disputes it, mr.z must have run under the platform of signing a peace agreement, then was told by US after winning his election to ignore that agreement as was outlined in the video at the beginning of this thread...
If Ukraine was OK with peace with putin, why weren't we?
Eagler
I'm coming at this conversation as someone who has spent a considerable amount of time following this subject over the years and one thing that has been critical to understanding it has been listening to both sides of the conversation and going back when relevant to listen to what was being said when it happened.
Reading what you consistently write I can assure you the points you are basing your frame of reference on are extremely heavily biased towards what the Russians have been pushing through their IO since before the 2022 invasion. The constant obsession with "Z-man" and belittling him based on his acting career for example is what the Russians put out weekly. That isn't normal for a balanced observer of the conflict. Another quick example is the false assumption the Ukes want peace and the west is pushing them to die by large numbers. You should really be asking yourself if you should be doing at least some due diligence if understanding this conflict is more important to you than being a political activist.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Skyyr on May 03, 2024, 01:07:11 PM
This thread is hilarious. It's like a bunch of pre-pubescent boys arguing over which of them a supermodel would take to prom.
How many of you tards have actually spent time in Ukraine, pre and post war? How many of you have LIVED there? How many have been in-country and experienced the elections? How many can tell me who the top 5 front-runners for the elections were for the last two cycles, from memory (Google doesn't count)? How many of you speak Ukrainian? How many of you know what platform Zelenskyy ran on prior to him winning the election? How many of you are familiar with the subtle but not inconsequential ideological divides over Russification between the various Oblasts?
Please stop talking about topics you have zero first-hand experience in. There is so much cringe in this thread it'd make most Ukrainians hate you, regardless of which side you support.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: AKIron on May 03, 2024, 01:12:50 PM
So long as my money goes somewhere I have paid for the right to comment on that.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Eagler on May 03, 2024, 01:13:57 PM
That is what I am asking...
What platform did he run on and did it change after he won as outlined in the video...
Not trying to take any side just trying to understand it
Eagler
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: RotBaron on May 03, 2024, 02:54:07 PM
Seems the entire thing is about nato missiles in Ukraine..we want them there and Russia doesn't
The comparison of that scenario with the United States already happened in the 60's and the United States was willing to do the same thing Russia seems to have been forced into and is now the bad guy...
Comparing Russia in 2022 to the U.S. in 1962 is comparing apples for oranges.
The U.S. is not pursuing expansionism. Russia has only stopped pursuing expansionism when they're broke, and there's a decent level of strength elsewhere.
I'm no fan of Zelensky. However, Ukraine simply isn't required by any measure to sit defenseless with Russia on their border leering at them with a lustful eye.
Again, I'm no fan of sending unlimited cash to Ukraine with no accountability, no transparency, and no plan for victory. But I'm even less a fan of allowing Russia to take whatever territory they think they're entitled to.
Sorry, allowing Russia and China to take territory and be aggressive, and allowing Iran to fund and spread terrorism, isn't going to resolve the issues with our southern border or the economy. Those are completely different problems.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on May 03, 2024, 06:46:28 PM
Since the start of the history of the USA, she has initiated in 68 countries, let's say, 'hostile incursions'. You can say 'invasions' if you want to be honest.
If we are to count all sovereign nations that the United States has partaken in 'significant military actions' on the home soil of then shockingly it includes all but three on the planet.
Every nation on the planet except three.
Let that sink in.
What 68 nations has the U.S. invaded in order to take and keep territory, and with no provocation?
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on May 03, 2024, 06:51:11 PM
Whoops didn't look it up, it's been a while since I've brushed up my ww2 history. There always anti war people though just look at the current university protests.
So you are ignoring the fact that Soros was a nazi whose being an aggressor on Russians border. Got it.
Soros is a problem in multiple nations all over the world. Including being a massive problem here in the US. I'm all for banning Soros, his progeny, and his money from the U.S., and removing anyone he has given a dime to from any government position.
However, Soros is not a citizen of Ukraine, last I looked, nor is he a government official. I despise him, too. However, his presence or his influence in a nation does not justify invading that nation. Otherwise, World War III would have long since erupted.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on May 03, 2024, 06:52:05 PM
Soros was 14 when made to work for the Nazis. Saw an interview in which he was asked if he had pangs of guilt for helping the Nazis take the Jews possessions. He said he did not. Who here wouldn't feel guilt for collaborating with the murderers of millions of their own people even if they were coerced at 14?
My opinion of the guy is well known. A long drop from a short rope has long been in order for him.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on May 03, 2024, 06:54:48 PM
I never cease to be amazed how many Americans find a decency in Putin. Guess they think 5th story windows, airplanes shedding wings and novichok are all just stories.
And a disjointed Cesar Sayoc innuendo vilifies George Soros for life.
I find no redeeming qualities in Putin. It's pretty bizarre that so many people despise one or another person in U.S. government so much that they think Putin is the good guy.....
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: mechanic on May 03, 2024, 10:12:50 PM
-----> HERE (https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/PdXxmCfzNOuE0w1cxBLLQLGLAMIgNg_wHGKKbqSu5RKQv3TCKmXEgyxBYDm9jbheWUdGBpq6VZrQ7PjMHBMlfMMvrH_YZuf_Aiv9Ak36Stch9IXopVvN7f2hkdYUW3XwEj0=w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu) is a comprehensive list of US military occupation globally. In what reality does this not constitute territorial expansion?
Comparison with Russian invasions through all her history:
The problem with objective discussion is that the human psyche has an immune system much the same as it's biological counterpart. People hear something they don't want to accept. Despite the overwhelming evidence. The immune system kicks in to protect our fragile minds from collapsing under the weight of just how monumentally stupid and immature we all are as a species.
It is absolutely right to condemn the war in Ukraine. We should condemn all murder. No one with any sense is trying to justify a war. Any war.
But if we intend to take an interest in these subjects then it is essential to lose our national bias and try to look at things objectively.
Objectively speaking, NATO has been expanding eastwards for 80 some years now. NATO was created to directly combat a supposed Russian threat. That stupid woman went to an important meeting and publicly stated the aim of bringing Ukraine into the organisation that threatens Russian sovereignty more than any other on the planet. Provocation that no self respecting nation would take on the chin. USA would not accept that, UK would not accept that. Russia does not accept it. Obviously there are a multitude of complex systems that also contribute to conflicts globally.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Spikes on May 03, 2024, 10:45:20 PM
Can you show on the map where the US possesses territory acquired from a military invasion?
I posted a link to the map showing the global coverage of US military bases. Looks like quite a lot of territory to me. But if we will argue that 'military presence is for your own safety, do not be alarmed'... we can always go back to the original invasion :p
I know mate, we really want to believe we are the good guys and everyone else that does anything is evil. Indoctrination.
Who besides you actually said "we really want to believe we are the good guys and everyone else that does anything is evil" that you are arguing against? It sure looks like you made up an over exaggerated narrative to pitch your tent on. I never believed we are 100% the "good guys" and every ones else is evil. Nations, like people are a constant conflict and confluence of interests and by that very nature 100% good and 100% evil rarely exists. What does exist and you conveniently ignore is that some acts are much more good for people and some are much more evil.
I pay attention many Chinese , Russian and even Soros aligned propaganda outlets and the things you say are pretty well aligned with all of them. I'm sure that is not indoctrination.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Eagler on May 04, 2024, 06:38:36 AM
Savage
Just trying to confirm here that Ukraine was going to sign an agreement to keep nato out of its country but was told not to and thus the war started...
Not a putin fan, not a fan of anyone these days really..but I care a rats arse if we have missiles in Ukraine..it's not worth all of this imo
I just don't see an end to this as there isn't nor ever has been an exit plan...seems we like to jump into things without thinking them through..20 years in Afghanistan for absolutely nothing for example
Eagler
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: rabbidrabbit on May 04, 2024, 06:46:10 AM
Just trying to confirm here that Ukraine was going to sign an agreement to keep nato out of its country but was told not to and thus the war started...
Not a putin fan, not a fan of anyone these days really..but I care a rats arse if we have missiles in Ukraine..it's not worth all of this imo
I just don't see an end to this as there isn't nor ever has been an exit plan...seems we like to jump into things without thinking them through..20 years in Afghanistan for absolutely nothing for example
Eagler
I'm not aware of a material discussion that would have resulted in UA signing an agreements before the war started. Just about anyone serious took Putin's claims re NATO just as seriously as his claims that UA was run by a jewish Nazis empire run by Nato. These were Russian IO talking points to justify the invasion that was put in motion over a year previously.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Eagler on May 04, 2024, 07:40:17 AM
I'm not aware of a material discussion that would have resulted in UA signing an agreements before the war started. Just about anyone serious took Putin's claims re NATO just as seriously as his claims that UA was run by a jewish Nazis empire run by Nato. These were Russian IO talking points to justify the invasion that was put in motion over a year previously.
Thanks rabbit
Hard to tell fact from fiction these days as everyone has an agenda
Eagler
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: rabbidrabbit on May 04, 2024, 07:52:39 AM
Hard to tell fact from fiction these days as everyone has an agenda
Eagler
I believe you might be thinking of the negotiations after the invasion in March 22 where the Russians were falling apart and UA eventually bailed because the Russian line was disarmament of UA's military to less than 1/10th of Russia and removal of all western arms and support for UA along with a removal of their government in exchange for something more favorable to Putin etc. It was almost a defacto capitulation with further invasion being only guaranteed by Putin's word that Russia would not just enforce the terms then find an excuse to keep invading. The whole "were told to fight on" is also a false Russian IO spin on UA being a puppet of Nato from what I can say after listening to what the Ukes said. They did ask Boris Johnson his opinion of the terms and he said what they were thinking which was the Russians could not be trusted and disarming would simply be buying some time. So they and Johnson said they asked and he gave them his opinion. The Russian IO spins has been that they wanted to agree but could not because Johnson ordered them to fight on. Which is more believable?
In short, the terms, despite the pro Russian spin, were very bad for UA and they chose to fight on given the signs of collapse they were seeing.
That is my understanding after reading and listening to multiple interviews on both sides.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: rabbidrabbit on May 04, 2024, 07:53:38 AM
Just trying to confirm here that Ukraine was going to sign an agreement to keep nato out of its country but was told not to and thus the war started...
Not a putin fan, not a fan of anyone these days really..but I care a rats arse if we have missiles in Ukraine..it's not worth all of this imo
I just don't see an end to this as there isn't nor ever has been an exit plan...seems we like to jump into things without thinking them through..20 years in Afghanistan for absolutely nothing for example
Eagler
You're trying to create a rational reason for Putin to invade. The problem is the Putin didn't need one. Stop trying to assign such a reason. Putin openly imprisons and murders his political opponents. He's a long time KGB officer. He doesn't need any reason other than his desire for power. Look at the election results in Russia for the last 30 years, and tell me he's not a totalitarian dictator.
He invaded because he knew he'd face weak responses.
As far as "exit plans" go, there hasn't been one since World War II. There is only one exit plan for war. Absolute victory. Anything else doesn't work.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on May 04, 2024, 08:54:43 AM
I know mate, we really want to believe we are the good guys and everyone else that does anything is evil. Indoctrination.
So you can't show a map where the U.S. invaded 68 countries and took territory on a permanent basis. Got it. Thanks. No, bases hosted by other nations, usually with paid compensation does not count.
Sorry, I don't accept "moral equivalence" or "moral relativism" as a valid basis of argument.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Eagler on May 04, 2024, 08:58:47 AM
Savage
Do you believe there will be absolute victory against Russia through this Ukraine war?
What does that look like to you?
I don't see it myself, not with Iran and China supporting one side and the US with some help from others supporting the other..
I see a unwinnable war slowly expanding into something no one wants or can control let alone afford..
I don't know the area or it's people, that is why I find responses from rabbit and others from the area valuable
Hoping for peace here on all fronts...we seem to like killing each other just as much sadly
A cease fire would be a great start...
Eagler
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: rabbidrabbit on May 04, 2024, 09:20:59 AM
He invaded because he knew he'd face weak responses.
Another applicable thought would be he didn't do it because it would be easy. He did it because he thought it would be easy.
He now owns it and will keep doubling down until it becomes clear that continued aggression will have less results than other options. The weaker the west is the more likely that he will continue. I would argue that the universal truth that weakness encourages aggression is playing out yet again.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on May 04, 2024, 09:33:45 AM
Another applicable thought would be he didn't do it because it would be easy. He did it because he thought it would be easy.
He now owns it and will keep doubling down until it becomes clear that continued aggression will have less results than other options. The weaker the west is the more likely that he will continue. I would argue that the universal truth that weakness encourages aggression is playing out yet again.
Probably correct.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on May 04, 2024, 09:47:35 AM
Do you believe there will be absolute victory against Russia through this Ukraine war?
What does that look like to you?
I don't see it myself, not with Iran and China supporting one side and the US with some help from others supporting the other..
I see a unwinnable war slowly expanding into something no one wants or can control let alone afford..
I don't know the area or it's people, that is why I find responses from rabbit and others from the area valuable
Hoping for peace here on all fronts...we seem to like killing each other just as much sadly
A cease fire would be a great start...
Eagler
I'm not sure I expect absolute victory, I don't, really. Obviously, absolute victory would be Russia returning to its original border. It's more a matter of containment, and not showing the weakness of appeasement, which guarantees more expansionism.
I'm not sure I see a radical expansion. I don't think anyone wants that, despite the threats of nuclear weapons from time to time from various Russian forces.
I don't know how long Russia can keep going without running out of money. I'm not sure China is willing to make the investment, their economy isn't that great, and there's limited return for them unless there's total collapse in the west. China wants Taiwan a lot more than they want Russia to have Ukraine. Their relationship is one of convenience, not of actual kinship.
The rest of Europe does not want Russian expansionism to continue, at some point, many will invest more.
Putin does have an expiration date, he is human, best we can tell, and not immortal. The question is who is his successor, and are they cut from the same cloth?
Again, I do not like war, but there are things I like less.
And yes, I'm concerned with our problems here. I'm not even sure we have not reached the point of no return. Our government is horrifically corrupt, and I'm not sure it can be reversed. It's full of huge numbers of corrupt life long unelected bureaucrats, in every government agency. It will take a president willing to act, with a solid majority in both houses in congress led by people willing to act. I'm not sure we can ever get that, and get it in time. If we cannot return to a government that is actually within the Constitution, and properly restrained by it, I doubt my grand sons will enjoy true liberty all of their lives. You have no idea how that angers me.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Eagler on May 04, 2024, 09:53:27 AM
... I would argue that the universal truth that weakness encourages aggression is playing out yet again.
What is the key "weakness " do you believe triggered this?
Was the previous relationship of this "weakness" and Ukraine just coincidence?
Some of us in the states still need to have clarity on what went on in Ukraine from 08 to 16 between world leaders and their relatives...but those investigations don't have the backing nor priority other investigations seem to have..
Eagler
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on May 04, 2024, 10:14:02 AM
What is the key "weakness " do you believe triggered this?
Was the previous relationship of this "weakness" and Ukraine just coincidence?
Some of us in the states still need to have clarity on what went on in Ukraine from 08 to 16 between world leaders and their relatives...but those investigations don't have the backing nor priority other investigations seem to have..
Eagler
The key weakness is the handlers who put Biden in office (same people chose Obama and chose Biden for him). And, as Gates said about Biden, "Joe Biden has been wrong on nearly ever foreign policy issue for 50 years". Biden was in fact part of the contingent of democrats who decided to stop supporting South Vietnam. There's an element of people in government who like to get involved in conflicts, or at least escalate the involvement, but have no stomach to pursue absolute victory. It dates back to Korea.
We have clarity about the involvement of certain "leaders" and Ukraine from 2008 to 2016. Because we have eyes. There were Russian oligarchs involved in the energy industry. And there were progeny of U.S. politicians sitting on boards of directors and in other positions in that industry. Just because the bureaucrats in D.C. won't pursue investigations, and the mainstream malignancy won't cover it, doesn't mean the information isn't out there.
Just like we know certain government officials were absolutely involved in illegal gain of function research into various novel viruses in foreign nations.
You don't need "official" investigations led by government agencies to know the truth. You have eyes and a nose. If you're waiting for the DoJ to tell you the truth about what the politicians and bureaucrats have been doing, you'll see the results of your own mortality long before you see clarity.
Needing "official" investigations to give you clarity is like needing a "scientist" to tell you water is wet, or a biologist to tell you what a woman is.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: rabbidrabbit on May 04, 2024, 10:31:32 AM
What is the key "weakness " do you believe triggered this?
Was the previous relationship of this "weakness" and Ukraine just coincidence?
Some of us in the states still need to have clarity on what went on in Ukraine from 08 to 16 between world leaders and their relatives...but those investigations don't have the backing nor priority other investigations seem to have..
Eagler
I'm generally referring to the common perception of the US being a fading super power which encourages a multipolar world that include bad actors like China or Russia.
In the case of the US and the Russian invasion of UA in 2014 through now, I think that this perception has had some validity and there are a number of examples of it. No doubt there is substantial evidence of US political "elites" profiting off of this to include the Bidens/ Kerry and Burisma which, for the sake of clarity, is/was a pro Russian entity being investigated for corruption by the new reformist 2014 UA gov. Paul Manafort also advised and lobbied for Pro Russian interests. I'm sure there is much more to this than that but I don't believe the US had a material role on the 2014 Maidan or much since beyond corruption over foreign aid and lobbying. The whole Russian IO of 2014 being orchestrated by the CIA etc seems to be just that beyond some meddling.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Gman on May 04, 2024, 11:14:11 AM
Comparing Russia in 2022 to the U.S. in 1962 is comparing apples for oranges.
The U.S. is not pursuing expansionism. Russia has only stopped pursuing expansionism when they're broke, and there's a decent level of strength elsewhere.
I'm no fan of Zelensky. However, Ukraine simply isn't required by any measure to sit defenseless with Russia on their border leering at them with a lustful eye.
Again, I'm no fan of sending unlimited cash to Ukraine with no accountability, no transparency, and no plan for victory. But I'm even less a fan of allowing Russia to take whatever territory they think they're entitled to.
Sorry, allowing Russia and China to take territory and be aggressive, and allowing Iran to fund and spread terrorism, isn't going to resolve the issues with our southern border or the economy. Those are completely different problems.
Agreed with much of that.
Most here will never say this, but Skyyr has a point. Not about the right to comment, everyone has that especially when they are funding ops, but about what Ukraine is truly like. My best friend has spent much of the last 2 years there in command of a company of mostly Canadians and Americans in the foreign fighters brigade. I had my security clearance approved and an age waiver to go too(it's usually under 35 only), right before I broke my right leg in 6 places and my ankle in 2. The things my friend(s) saw and experienced are nothing like what's being commonly reported. He'll write a book (his second) shortly I'm sure, but on all sides of the argument there is so much misinformation. Shocker right.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: AKIron on May 04, 2024, 12:05:35 PM
Wife worked with a young woman in her 20's from Ukraine for a few years up until a couple of years ago. She moved here with her parents and sisters a while back. She told the wife Russians were all dirty and evil. She didn't say which she despised more and I wasn't there to ask why.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: AKIron on May 04, 2024, 12:10:04 PM
We were going to go hear her sing at her Orthodox church in Idaho Christmas of 2019 but got sick for 3 weeks (covid). When we heard their services last 3 hours we were glad we'd stayed home. Mormons have long services like that too I'm told.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: mechanic on May 04, 2024, 02:04:25 PM
Who besides you actually said "we really want to believe we are the good guys and everyone else that does anything is evil" that you are arguing against? It sure looks like you made up an over exaggerated narrative to pitch your tent on. I never believed we are 100% the "good guys" and every ones else is evil. Nations, like people are a constant conflict and confluence of interests and by that very nature 100% good and 100% evil rarely exists. What does exist and you conveniently ignore is that some acts are much more good for people and some are much more evil.
I pay attention many Chinese , Russian and even Soros aligned propaganda outlets and the things you say are pretty well aligned with all of them. I'm sure that is not indoctrination.
I'm happy to say I'm wrong when proven wrong. I'm hoping that you would offer me the same grace if I was proved right.
None of it is worth arguing personally with each other about and nothing I have opined is directly personally at you.
Ukraine total defeat in less than 7 months unless nato moves in and escalates WW3 even further. That is my prediction. Maybe see you after christmas.
And you're right on one thing, we are all indoctrinated in one way or another. Life is a constant struggle to break free of that bombardment that starts at birth.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: rabbidrabbit on May 04, 2024, 02:20:50 PM
I'm happy to say I'm wrong when proven wrong. I'm hoping that you would offer me the same grace if I was proved right.
None of it is worth arguing personally with each other about and nothing I have opined is directly personally at you.
Ukraine total defeat in less than 7 months unless nato moves in and escalates WW3 even further. That is my prediction. Maybe see you after christmas.
And you're right on one thing, we are all indoctrinated in one way or another. Life is a constant struggle to break free of that bombardment that starts at birth.
I'm not offended. I'm simply pointing out that a lot of what you are saying regarding this conflict has a very strong alignment with pro Russia IO. If I was shown that my opinions were strongly aligned with one side then I would ask myself some questions about my sources as you are correct to say we are all being increasingly bombarded by someone version of the truth which rarely is the unvarnished truth.
You could be right if they don't get their draft squared away. As long as they have had the men and equipment they have been holding their own. The last few months they have been squeezed by a lack of both for different reasons. Will they actually fold and lose the remaining 80% of their country? I don't know but they are getting supplies now and they can improve recruiting if they have the will. In the end, it's their fight as it's their country, homes and families who will suffer very severely when they are back under the Russian boot.
I personally think they will slowly continue to lose ground through the summer and then we will know more about whether or not they still want to fight. If they do then it's fine by me to support them within reason as their fight is a much more worthy cause than many others. If not then no support is necessary.
Title: Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
Post by: Vraciu on May 04, 2024, 02:44:18 PM
I'm not offended. I'm simply pointing out that a lot of what you are saying regarding this conflict has a very strong alignment with pro Russia IO. If I was shown that my opinions were strongly aligned with one side then I would ask myself some questions about my sources as you are correct to say we are all being increasingly bombarded by someone version of the truth which rarely is the unvarnished truth.
You could be right if they don't get their draft squared away. As long as they have had the men and equipment they have been holding their own. The last few months they have been squeezed by a lack of both for different reasons. Will they actually fold and lose the remaining 80% of their country? I don't know but they are getting supplies now and they can improve recruiting if they have the will. In the end, it's their fight as it's their country, homes and families who will suffer very severely when they are back under the Russian boot.
I personally think they will slowly continue to lose ground through the summer and then we will know more about whether or not they still want to fight. If they do then it's fine by me to support them within reason as their fight is a much more worthy cause than many others. If not then no support is necessary.
I'll definitely think about what you've said regarding my own brand of indoctrination. I like to think most of my opinions are arrived at through impartial observation. But no doubt we all get influenced everyday, every hour, and increasingly by fake AI generated spam.