I’m not entirely sure you can fit a thermo-nuclear device in a suitcase. The minimum critical mass of plutonium is 10kg, so maybe a low yield atomic device is possible.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/W54
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 02, 2024, 08:08:59 AM
Apparently Mossad HQ has now been leveled. So this is going to get interesting...
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: Eagler on October 03, 2024, 06:59:25 PM
I’m not entirely sure you can fit a thermo-nuclear device in a suitcase. The minimum critical mass of plutonium is 10kg, so maybe a low yield atomic device is possible.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/W54
Splitting hairs as it is really about the radiation versus the actual initial demolition imo
Eagler
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: Animl-AW on October 03, 2024, 07:19:39 PM
Splitting hairs as it is really about the radiation versus the actual initial demolition imo
Eagler
This
A dirty bomb, exposure to radiation. It doesn’t have to be a nuclear triggered explosion, it just has to be big enough to spread it quick and far. Same thing if Russia hit a nuke energy plant in Ukraine. It would drift into other Europe countries closest.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: AKIron on October 03, 2024, 07:36:37 PM
Hundreds of nukes have been set off above ground since 1945. There was no nuclear winter. I suspect a nuclear war won't be the cataclysmic event feared. Of course millions will die and perhaps billions but not all 8 billion of us.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: Animl-AW on October 03, 2024, 08:09:16 PM
Hundreds of nukes have been set off above ground since 1945. There was no nuclear winter. I suspect a nuclear war won't be the cataclysmic event feared. Of course millions will die and perhaps billions but not all 8 billion of us.
I suppose the difference would be in a nuke bomb radiation is incinerated. If you look at the Chernobyl, as in just leaked, the entire area is still nuclear contaminated and uninhabitable. Yet Japan is safe.
A dirty bomb would be more of delayed death as the exposure eats the body.
That plant in Ukraine id a very large dirty bomb if struck. As its blown into the air that active cloud would drift deep into Europe and years if not decades of all life/death issues. All depends on direction of wind and how much gets into the air.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: Chris79 on October 03, 2024, 08:59:06 PM
I suppose the difference would be in a nuke bomb radiation is incinerated. If you look at the Chernobyl, as in just leaked, the entire area is still nuclear contaminated and uninhabitable. Yet Japan is safe.
A dirty bomb would be more of delayed death as the exposure eats the body.
That plant in Ukraine id a very large dirty bomb if struck. As its blown into the air that active cloud would drift deep into Europe and years if not decades of all life/death issues. All depends on direction of wind and how much gets into the air.
That would probably be one the worst long term consequences of a nuclear exchange. Image of half the reactors melted down, that’s like mad Max tier chaos.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: xanax on October 03, 2024, 09:47:01 PM
Hundreds of nukes have been set off above ground since 1945. There was no nuclear winter. I suspect a nuclear war won't be the cataclysmic event feared. Of course millions will die and perhaps billions but not all 8 billion of us.
It would take an impossible amount of Tsar Bombas to end human existence on the planet. It would be a miserable existence for quite some time if only a few were lit however. At least from what I've read......
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: xanax on October 03, 2024, 10:05:08 PM
A dirty bomb, exposure to radiation. It doesn’t have to be a nuclear triggered explosion, it just has to be big enough to spread it quick and far. Same thing if Russia hit a nuke energy plant in Ukraine. It would drift into other Europe countries closest.
It's in Russia's best interest to NOT allow another steam explosion or any other type of radiation escape event from nuclear facilities in Ukraine. The prevailing winds tend to blow from west to east in the northern hemisphere and the previous explosion at Chernobyl bore that out as the vast majority of the fallout travelled to the northeast for about 350 miles. I remember it was about week later the radiation was detected on the west coast of the US at levels below the need for "concern." There was no partying in Minsk during that week.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: Oldman731 on October 03, 2024, 10:31:23 PM
Hundreds of nukes have been set off above ground since 1945. There was no nuclear winter. I suspect a nuclear war won't be the cataclysmic event feared. Of course millions will die and perhaps billions but not all 8 billion of us.
Hah! Thank you for making me dig around for this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNC0YwuGLqg
- oldman
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: AKIron on October 03, 2024, 10:39:21 PM
We will rock you.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: xanax on October 03, 2024, 10:44:44 PM
I suppose the difference would be in a nuke bomb radiation is incinerated. If you look at the Chernobyl, as in just leaked, the entire area is still nuclear contaminated and uninhabitable. Yet Japan is safe.
The emission of energy as waves and particles from the neutrons of radioisotopes is the "incineration" you speak of. The neutron particles and waves aren't incinerated, they're doing the incinerating. Radiation isn't incinerated. The reason Japan is/was "safe" is because very little radiation was released in comparison to Chernobyl. I think it was like 300 to 400 times less. The bombs used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were tiny compared to the Tsar Bombas the Russians carry these days.
The 20 mile uninhabited (by humans) ring around Chernobyl remains because of what we learned from the original bombs. Japan is safe but there were of elevated cancer rates and other maladies in those areas and perhaps still today. They didn't put a small uninhabited Ring around those areas of the cities because we just didn't know. It seems the flora and fauna living in the uninhabited zone around Chernobyl is thriving without the presence of humans. Yeah, some post-event generations of animal offspring there showed some anomalies due to mutation from radiation of course. Animals mostly have shorter lifespans and mutated alleles and whatnot get weeded out in subsequent generations however. In human terms, generational turnover is long. Plenty of time for tumors to express themselves while a common weasel or something is 7 or 8 generations down the road from the generation hit with the fallout.
None of this stuff is good.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: xanax on October 03, 2024, 10:48:34 PM
George C. Scott was an actor to be remembered. We still watch his 1984 A Christmas Carol on occasion.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: Eagler on October 04, 2024, 06:55:13 AM
Or just the right event to trigger extreme civil unrest and we will implode all on our own....see the peaceful riots summer 2020 over actually nothing really as doesn't take much to rile up some up these days...could throw in a false flag event as the cherry on top..
Sounds more possible every day imo..
Eagler
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: icepac on October 04, 2024, 07:42:37 AM
We should check if the chinese landowners have bought up power generation and fuel storage hardware way larger in scale than what is required?
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: Animl-AW on October 04, 2024, 09:55:04 AM
It's in Russia's best interest to NOT allow another steam explosion or any other type of radiation escape event from nuclear facilities in Ukraine. The prevailing winds tend to blow from west to east in the northern hemisphere and the previous explosion at Chernobyl bore that out as the vast majority of the fallout travelled to the northeast for about 350 miles. I remember it was about week later the radiation was detected on the west coast of the US at levels below the need for "concern." There was no partying in Minsk during that week.
Certainly, you’re more educated on the subject than me.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: xanax on October 04, 2024, 10:35:02 AM
Certainly, you’re more educated on the subject than me.
Nope. I love mechanical watches and wondered how they got all the Tritium to make the glowing hands and dials on watches during the 60's, 70's and 80's. That Google rabbit hole coupled with memories from a college physics class almost 40 years ago soon had me looking up how Plutonium and Uranium are utilized to make bombs. A few evenings later I'm reading about Chernobyl, Tsar Bomba and above ground testing. I eventually got bored trying to understand sub-atomic particles and pivoted over to Formula One racing during the 50's and 60's and how to make my own weather station for the backyard. Basically, an uncontrolled chain reaction involving Google and Youtube as catalysts.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: Mayhem on October 04, 2024, 11:40:25 AM
Hundreds of nukes have been set off above ground since 1945. There was no nuclear winter. I suspect a nuclear war won't be the cataclysmic event feared. Of course millions will die and perhaps billions but not all 8 billion of us.
Actually it is thousands, There have been 2055-2060 nukes set off over a timeline of several decades Like over 6 plus decades, But again that's over a decades. Any one want to track cancer rates since 1900?
The world’s nuclear powers have more than 12,000 nuclear warheads. The U.S. and Russia have over 5,000 nuclear weapons each. I would also point out nations do tend to "Salt" their bombs.
Only 2 nuclear devices have ever been dropped on inhabited areas, We saw what that did.
Imagine 3000 nukes (Far more powerful than Gadget, little boy, and fat man) used on cities and inhabited areas all at once. Add in radiation fallout that is going to hit all at once and a complete loss of infrastructure and your looking at a Toba catastrophe level event that if it doesn't wipe out all of humanity it will surely destroy civilization as we know it, and may well cause another genetic bottle neck.
Look at what a little cold did to the world in 2020.
The people that don't die in the blast are going to die due to radiation sickness and the rest of poor talking monkeys are going to starve to death or eat each other.
I know one thing for sure it's not going to be as fun as a bethesda game.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: AKIron on October 04, 2024, 12:19:42 PM
We just may find out how devastating a nuclear war can be. It's not looking good.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: Eagler on October 04, 2024, 01:00:04 PM
We just may find out how devastating a nuclear war can be. It's not looking good.
Crazy talk of some stating that they are survivable...
I think we are the closest we've been in some time due to simultaneous convergence of several permissible variables..
Eagler
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: icepac on October 04, 2024, 01:11:04 PM
All the plants will be smoking holes once everybody abandons their station.
Far worse than the nukes themselves in the long run.
Our enemies have ruined their land and want ours.
A typical scenario for china conquering america is to simply cut off the power and wait for the population to kill each other to the tune of 90% casualties. Then come in and clean up. They're already stealing white beach sand wherever they can get away with it so I believe they have a very long term plan that has chinese running the north american continent.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: AKIron on October 04, 2024, 10:24:38 PM
Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda You'll come a Waltzing Matilda with me
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: Puma44 on October 05, 2024, 11:33:27 AM
A typical scenario for china conquering america is to simply cut off the power and wait for the population to kill each other to the tune of 90% casualties. Then come in and clean up. They're already stealing white beach sand wherever they can get away with it so I believe they have a very long term plan that has chinese running the north american continent.
No doubt they have taken copious notes during the COVID fiasco and now, the current TP panicdemic. The aftermath of Hurricane Helene must also be of interest, for future reference.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: Vulcan on October 05, 2024, 04:40:06 PM
suitcase nuke... less a suitcase though, more a backpack nuke.
Quote
Production of the B54 Mod 1 SADM began in August 1964. The weapon was 12 inches (305 mm) diameter, 18 inches (457 mm) long and weighed 58.5 pounds (26.5 kg), and included the warhead, fuzing and firing system with a mechanical timer, ferroelectric firing set and a sealed housing. The body was constructed with aluminium forgings and moulded fibreglass, and foam-rubber insulation was used between the warhead and case. Dials were illuminated with a tritium-phosphor paint for easy night-reading. A housing for underwater emplacement was provided which included external controls.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: mechanic on October 05, 2024, 04:51:11 PM
Nuclear war is not a deterrent for your enemy anymore. It is a threat that you hold over your own population to keep them in line. Been that way since the cold war.
Aside from a very industrious suitcase nuke smuggled into a city, nuclear war is a benign premise. It's just not feasible. Counter measures are so ludicrously high tech now. The stuff we do know about is pretty hot, but the stuff we don't know about is likely an order of magnitude more potent than we can even imagine.
And any way, on topic, what kind of belief system imagines that we can have nukes but others cannot. Let them have nukes. They cannot be more irresponsible and corrupt than the west during this time of late stage capitalism. In any case, nukes are a deterrent against your own population. Maybe the Persians want to be able to hold their people in line with fear just like we do.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: AKIron on October 05, 2024, 07:05:24 PM
"late stage capitalism". That's a new one on me. Are you implying you know what the end of capitalism looks like? Maybe an example?
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: AKIron on October 05, 2024, 07:23:40 PM
Maybe check your points before answering since capitalism, communism, etc... are political in nature and therefore verboten here.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: mechanic on October 06, 2024, 06:32:40 AM
"late stage capitalism". That's a new one on me. Are you implying you know what the end of capitalism looks like? Maybe an example?
It looks exactly like now. Massive wealth disparity. Rampant greed motivated organisations. One person spending 40k on a dinner while millions will never afford a house to live in. Wars perpetuated indefinitely while profits roll in. Individualistic mindsets encouraged at the expense of community.
Failure of currency. Banks lending money that doesn't exist and claiming the interest as well as the real currency that must be returned. Failing health care. Failing public services. Failing nutrition. Mental health crisis. Removal of freedoms. Censorship besieges freedom of speech. Trillions lost in corruption.
Complete disregard for the old and the disabled. Complete disregard for military veterans.
A system that rewards greed and self interest. A system that promotes psychopathy and sociopathy.
The most profitable industries are also the most destructive. War and the complete control of medicine and health care.
In short, capitalism functions most efficiently using unsustainable and exploitative methods. At some point these systems will reach such a straining point that collapse is inevitable. That is where we are now.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: Eagler on October 06, 2024, 06:41:21 AM
And you would replace capitalism with?
All systems can be corrupt and selfish...I would say all are these days
Eagler
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: mechanic on October 06, 2024, 07:13:05 AM
I cannot claim to know the solution. Only that we all deep down know it is not this.
There is more than enough space on this planet for everyone to live, eat, work and play. There is a solution in theory. The problems are self inflicted. A vision of what human civilisation could be with global co-operation is needed. We can see the evidence of the cyclic rise and fall even in the recorded history of the last few millennia. Humans have been around in this form for at least a few hundred thousand years. It would be very naive to assume that recorded history is all there was. Somehow we need to make this go around not end like the ones before.
Evolve or collapse to repeat the cycle. It's on us. No one is coming to save us. Kardashev scale highlights exactly this point.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: Spikes on October 06, 2024, 08:52:07 AM
It looks exactly like now. Massive wealth disparity. Rampant greed motivated organisations. One person spending 40k on a dinner while millions will never afford a house to live in. Wars perpetuated indefinitely while profits roll in. Individualistic mindsets encouraged at the expense of community.
Failure of currency. Banks lending money that doesn't exist and claiming the interest as well as the real currency that must be returned. Failing health care. Failing public services. Failing nutrition. Mental health crisis. Removal of freedoms. Censorship besieges freedom of speech. Trillions lost in corruption.
Complete disregard for the old and the disabled. Complete disregard for military veterans.
A system that rewards greed and self interest. A system that promotes psychopathy and sociopathy.
The most profitable industries are also the most destructive. War and the complete control of medicine and health care.
In short, capitalism functions most efficiently using unsustainable and exploitative methods. At some point these systems will reach such a straining point that collapse is inevitable. That is where we are now.
Well put.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: AKIron on October 06, 2024, 09:26:52 AM
I cannot claim to know the solution. Only that we all deep down know it is not this.
There is more than enough space on this planet for everyone to live, eat, work and play. There is a solution in theory. The problems are self inflicted. A vision of what human civilisation could be with global co-operation is needed. We can see the evidence of the cyclic rise and fall even in the recorded history of the last few millennia. Humans have been around in this form for at least a few hundred thousand years. It would be very naive to assume that recorded history is all there was. Somehow we need to make this go around not end like the ones before.
Evolve or collapse to repeat the cycle. It's on us. No one is coming to save us. Kardashev scale highlights exactly this point.
You are describing human nature. Not capitalism.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 06, 2024, 09:52:13 AM
I feel like it's crony capitalism, not necessarily direct capitalism. Ie, making it incredibly difficult for a small timers to start their own business do to extremely tough regulations to open a business, licenses and pattening costs, as well as high taxes insurance, and other fees that limit their growth potential. It's the old "lemonade stand" example. Not saying there shouldn't be barriers to entry for the safety of the public, but over bearing regulations and taxes make it tough to compete and give large businesses the advantage.
Greed and human nature effect both private and public organizations. But, public institutions are always are way more powerful that private because they effect the entire nation, not just people in the local area of the business. Its why so many powerful business leaders want to become public officials or lobby public officials. Then they can manipulate policies that help their business and make it tougher to compete for the small guy.
That is why the founding fathers of America created the system the way they did. They knew that public policies generally always stole more of their money to allow them to get ahead, so they created a system that allowed individuals to become wealthy. Which was nearly unheard of at the time.
Individual wealth is extremely important because it allows for an offset to egregious public policy and allows for the means of the public to monetarily stand up against a corrupt public authority. Thats why many socialist/communist policies keep people poor while their officials steal it all. This creates a weaker less wealthy country overall. It's why with 1.5B people China still isn't as wealthy as America even though they may have more billionaires.
IMO, another thing ruining capitalism is "market rate salaries" so all cashiers get $15 an hour at any business regardless of the size of business. Walmart should pay $25 and hour because they can afford it, and would get better quality workers, but the market rate is $15, so they pay $15 just like the small shop down the street. This keeps wages low for everyone in the industry because there is no wage competition among bigger stores. That's not how capitalism should be.
The true way to wealth is to create your own business. The harder it is to do that, the worse off a society is. That's why so many cultures from around the world have moved to America, so they can open shops and actually get ahead in life. It's the greatest system ever made, but its being manipulated as usual. There are so many wealthy people in America it would make your head spin, but I think there is such an emphasis on so many poor people that most never take a look around and see the individual wealth all around them granted to them by capitalism. For me, that is inspiration rather than envy.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: Shuffler on October 06, 2024, 10:27:42 AM
When lazy bums starve, I really don't care. Get out there and bust you arse like I have if you want something. That is what i tell them.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: The Fugitive on October 06, 2024, 10:30:47 AM
When lazy bums starve, I really don't care. Get out there and bust you arse like I have if you want something. That is what i tell them.
Everyone has their own goal. If its to be a lazy bum, fine, but you live or die by that sword all on your own.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: mechanic on October 06, 2024, 12:35:57 PM
It's so easy to view life through only your own eyes. What does capitalism do for me? There goes that individualistic attitude mentioned earlier. I'm also doing well thanks to living in a highly developed capitalist country. Small picture stuff.
Thanks for all the minerals. Sorry you died a cripple in your 30s.
Anyway, not really the hijack we were looking for.
Anyone who wants nukes can have them. Only one country (or perhaps, one alliance) so far has shown the audacity to actually use them on other humans. Whoever that was has the least right to decide who else can make their own bombs.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: AKIron on October 06, 2024, 01:15:55 PM
If it was human nature EVERYONE would be striving for the same thing, and we are not.
Everyone has their own goal. If its to be a lazy bum, fine, but you live or die by that sword all on your own.
Greed and selfishness are human nature. Most will do the best they can for themselves and theirs. Many will exploit anyone and everyone they can regardless of the government and economic systems within which they live.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: mechanic on October 06, 2024, 01:53:18 PM
Greed and selfishness are human nature. Most will do the best they can for themselves and theirs. Many will exploit anyone and everyone they can regardless of the government and economic systems within which they live.
Having travelled a fair bit and lived in different cultures, I would disagree strongly with your definition of 'most people'. But it's not about my perspective or my opinions.
So are you saying the solution to that view point you have is to to join them and be the same?
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: AKIron on October 06, 2024, 02:13:09 PM
I too have traveled and lived in many states and a few other countries. You don't believe "most" people want to take care of themselves and theirs (families)? We're just going to have to disagree on that then.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: Eagler on October 06, 2024, 04:19:53 PM
The United States government is a corrupt bloated pig many in the world are sick of..
Living high on the hog on credit most are underwater including our fantastic government for way too long...
We have the wars to keep the rest of the world in their place and force the dollar onto them..
If/when that changes Venezuela will look like a paradise compared to the sheet show this once great country blooms into..
We will implode with just a little help...very little sadly
Eagler
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 06, 2024, 05:27:56 PM
I was gonna do this whole philosophical writeup but....
There's a lot you can learn from sold old gangster rap.
Particularly the first line of this song I like the most.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 06, 2024, 05:45:14 PM
A Quote I do enjoy
"The world is your exercise book, the pages on which you do your sums. It is not reality, though you may express reality there if you wish. You are also free to write lies, or nonsense, or to tear the pages." Richard Bach, Illusions:
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: Eagler on October 06, 2024, 06:05:03 PM
"The world is your exercise book, the pages on which you do your sums. It is not reality, though you may express reality there if you wish. You are also free to write lies, or nonsense, or to tear the pages." Richard Bach, Illusions:
One of my favorite authors...have read just about everything he's written
It all makes for an exciting and interesting illusion to say the least
:cheers:
Eagler
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: mechanic on October 06, 2024, 07:21:20 PM
I too have traveled and lived in many states and a few other countries. You don't believe "most" people want to take care of themselves and theirs (families)? We're just going to have to disagree on that then.
No, you are absolutely right about that sir. No argument. But if some darker parts of human nature encourage more of us to behave that way 'because everyone does' then we are certainly doomed. I still think Iran should have the right to do what it likes with it's atoms. Nukes are the dumbest thing about our species. It's fantastic that we have evolved to not be harmless. We can harness the power of a star to smite our enemies. It's remarkable.
The whole thing is so stupid because we still like killing each other so very much. So stupid that no one has the right to say who can or cannot have nooks.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 06, 2024, 07:44:12 PM
No, you are absolutely right about that sir. No argument. But if some darker parts of human nature encourage more of us to behave that way 'because everyone does' then we are certainly doomed. I still think Iran should have the right to do what it likes with it's atoms. Nukes are the dumbest thing about our species. It's fantastic that we have evolved to not be harmless. We can harness the power of a star to smite our enemies. It's remarkable.
The whole thing is so stupid because we still like killing each other so very much. So stupid that no one has the right to say who can or cannot have nooks.
Imagine having nuke, and then not having the ability to have manless drones pick up people in disaster situations in the mountains....
I'm with you on that, just so stupid with our energy
The only thing for me is that true capitalism doesn't have slave labor. Slave labor is counter productive to a prosperous economic system. Mining for material is perfectly fine, but its the power structure that allows it to be "moral" or not. And unfortunately we have power structures that don't understand the power of a prosperous strong nation. Thats why they'll never be as powerful as they wish.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 06, 2024, 09:57:23 PM
One of my favorite authors...have read just about everything he's written
It all makes for an exciting and interesting illusion to say the least
:cheers:
Eagler
My father gave me that book when I was growing up. It's my favorite. It's his 75th Birthday today so cheers to that. Just to note, He was a big proponent of me playing this game when I was growing up. He lived in Japan with his brother as a child while his father flew B26s and B25s. After he left the coast guard in Alaska, he had the unique experience of traveling around the world 3 times, living in many different countries like India, Suadi Arabia, China, and Brussels, among others. He even got to fly on a Concord and live in a submarine out of Puerto Rico. I walked into my 6th grade my class with a 4 ft perfectly made Trebuchet. I walked into my 7th grade class with a laser guitar. He has 3 patents with his name at the top for these businesses. Even American business weren't fair to him. But, even he still knew he'd make a better living in America because of capitalism compared to the rest. He lived watching half his paycheck disappear in other countries. But, one thing I'll never forget, we saw this badass super car pour the coal to it down the street at a gas station one time, he said, you can have 6 of those if you want. And that's when I realized there is a dream to achieve success and that there is an opportunity to have what you really want by doing the right thing and providing goods for people in a fair way. This dream is why I love the ability of capitalism. It's a much better mentality to know you have a chance than to know you'll never have much no matter how hard you work. And then you add the Book, "Illusions" and thats when you know you can change your world to make it that way.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: nrshida on October 07, 2024, 01:00:32 PM
"late stage capitalism". That's a new one on me. Are you implying you know what the end of capitalism looks like? Maybe an example?
This system only really works by perpetual expansion which is observably in its end-game. Not just new markets or resources but the base-resource of people and we've already plopped over the top of the population roller-coaster which can be supported by this process. Look at Japan, Germany and especially places like Kerela. Further it is obviously incompatible with any notion of sustainable energy and it is energy - not political ideologies - which ultimately accounts for the modern improvements for the majority of people but also tremendous unrest over the future as it's clearly time to rethink simply digging stuff up to burn it. I think it's a transitional phase not the end of solutions.
This is a fascinating point of discussion. Of course all observable people have grown up under systems of great inequality and division. The deeper question is 'are' people greedy and selfish by nature or 'were' they this way until better systems came along. I mean looking back from the future on the present time rather than answering that question now. It's sometimes hard to be optimistic about Homo Sapiens overcoming their inherent flaws, maybe they won't, but counter intuitively you only seem to see the best when things are at their worst.
Oooh ooh, I'll take this one. I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
Many creative, intelligent and forward-thinking people have proposed solutions but massive institutional inertia needs massive nudges to change (and probably a cataclysmic event at this phase). Let's face it: those who are in 'power' would lose the most if more logical systems were introduced, at least that is how it is perceived by metrics that have been used to-date. There's no reward for holistic considerations, as Batfink observed: to the opposite. We're just seeing the results of processes applied over long periods without necessarily any design or forethought. As you say: all institutions pervert and corrupt over time.
From a certain perspective what is most wrong with the present United Kingdom and the now Russian Federation is that they were neither completely invaded nor conquered in the period of the second World War. Nearly all of Europe was, and where they had the freedom to do so, they sat down post-war and did a lot of work to devise newer, clean-sheet-of-paper and forward-thinking solutions. Britain, for example did not. They thought what they had been doing all along was obviously correct and so they simply kept on with superficial but not fundamental change. Look at the motorcycle industry in the 50s and 60s. Boy were they incapable of dynamic change. So much momentum of doing it the way it had always been done...
Isaac Asimov said in an interview around 1978 or so that 'mankind' (as it was described then) had reached the point where its problems can only be solved by uniting and working together in place of pursuing factional-interests. That was getting on for half a century ago or - if you like - one fifth of the duration of the Industrial Revolution!
There were once something like 16 hominids knocking around this planet, some of them overlapping. We're the last ones left and from a certain perspective the reasons for our success over the others are also the seeds of our own terminal doom. This is why unlocking A1, A2 and A3 at the Furbal lake in the present MPA is so essential.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: AKIron on October 07, 2024, 01:56:09 PM
We are all born selfish and greedy. We must be taught to share. Some never learn the benefits therein. When you consider that humans have a limited life span and do consume resources throughout you may see the benefit of putting aside some of your gain to then invest in younger generations getting started in their own endeavors. This is capitalism and it is renewable. Sure, you could do it collectively in varying degrees. History has and is proving that government becomes selfish with power, serving only to promote that power and its own security.
Title: Re: So....time for some bunker busters ?
Post by: Eagler on October 07, 2024, 03:04:36 PM
John 13:34-35
If we all lived as instructed above the reasons for this thread wouldn't exit nor our concerns of what system we are trying to exist under..
Simple really but we make it complicated with egotistical selfishness and believing the noise brainwashed into us from birth stating that we aren't spiritual beings having a human experience but need to dominate and one up everyone with everything