Special Events Forums => Special Events General => Topic started by: AKKuya on June 25, 2025, 07:52:54 PM
Title: AI Scenario Events
Post by: AKKuya on June 25, 2025, 07:52:54 PM
My idea is to put all players one side. This would promote fun where all would share together in same objective. This would enable competition on which player and or squad would be the best.
This type of event requires volunteer AI designers to create vast targets of opportunity.
Event #1
Battle of Britain
Luftwaffe is the AI side. AI coated missions would launch hundreds of LW bombers and escort fighters across the English Channel. Designers will have multiple missions enabling different AC types (Ju-88, He-111, Ju-87, Bf-110 C and Me-109 E) and varying altitudes, course directions and targets.
RAF is the player side. Spit 1's and Hurri 1's to save Britain. Players and or squads will compete against each other for most enemy AC shot down.
Event #2
8th Air Force Over Germany
AI sidw is the Mighty 8th. AI coated missions would launch hundreds of 8th AF bombers and escort fighters across the English Channel. Designers will have multiple missions enabling different AC types (B-17, B-24, and P-51 for high altitude missions and B-25, B-26, and P-38 for low altitude missions) and varying altitudes, course directions and targets.
LW is the player side. Every LW and Italian fighter to save the Fatherland. Players and or squads will compete against each other for most enemy AC shot down.
These two are the easiest to design and play. Should this prove fruitful, then other scenarios could be imagined.
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: hazmatt on June 25, 2025, 07:57:54 PM
This is interesting. Have you seen the offline mission where you play Luftwaffe and attack great big missions of ai bombers? I think that one might be able to be adapted to what you're describing.
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: Eagler on June 26, 2025, 06:36:22 AM
Seems some here don't like the idea of AI opponents...
Sounds like a great time!
I am for similar AI missions setup in the MA for variety and fun!
Eagler
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: MDStampf93 on June 26, 2025, 08:28:27 AM
We could set up some really really cool events utilizing this… just have no idea how to add AI to the special events arena. This is worth looking into though.
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: Spikes on June 26, 2025, 08:30:29 AM
Nef did a lot with AI in the past. I've never messed with it but the downside is the missions have to be pre-planned outside the game and then the missions added to the game and launched. It would be nice to have a Pick-up mission style editor but it spawns AI. But I don't think that's in the cards, unfortunately.
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: Devil 505 on June 26, 2025, 09:45:02 AM
There are other problems with AI bomber formations because every plane is treated as an individual.
1. Icons overlap and blend into one large red mass, making picking out any actual bomber very difficult.
2. Extreme lag and warping when near the bombers. Expect lots of unintentional rams and rubber bullet syndrome.
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: AKKuya on June 26, 2025, 06:51:25 PM
Is CapTrips still around? He really had a handle on the AI.
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: captain1ma on June 26, 2025, 08:18:12 PM
i had a whole setup doing this years ago, but everyone complained about the AI. im all for it! just saying!
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: fudgums on June 27, 2025, 06:10:34 AM
There are other problems with AI bomber formations because every plane is treated as an individual.
1. Icons overlap and blend into one large red mass, making picking out any actual bomber very difficult.
2. Extreme lag and warping when near the bombers. Expect lots of unintentional rams and rubber bullet syndrome.
I set up the initial template AI formations and missions for Nef.
It be nice if the icon logic had exclude bomber option. I mean, even I can see a bomber. I was turning my icons off at the start of a pass because of what you are mentioning.
I'd break up the formations in to multiple inbound streams of no more that 20 or so bombers and space out the stream 4 mi apart. (I think that is close to the real group spacing in WWII). That would allow AH's view culling logic to function most effectively and not render bombers too far away to worry about.
Ironically the warping you saw (well probably the more noticeable stuff) was slave bombers of a human player formation janking back and forth. In a pure AI formation, we never saw that. I'd recommend NOT using bomber formation mode for human slots. I'd test AI only formations with single human bombers slots.
Kuya, ironically I had reached out back in the day and offered to setup a perpetual, AI augmented BoB perma-scenario to just leave running in the AVA when ever no other event was needed to run. Like an AvA screensaver mission. ;)
It'd have multiple varied AI bomber formations forever coming across the channel to different targets in London, on the coast, and airfields. At different intervals with both AI escorts and interceptors. Humans could spawn and join in either as escorts or interceptors at any point and participate. Even human bombers could jump in and ride along as the bomber mission launch times would be getting announced on the red side and you could get ready to spawn and join. Any time day or night. US or Euro prime-time. In a group or all by yourself.
The reception to the idea was fairly cool. AI is not the AvA's style I guess.
I had also been in the beginning of making a new AI arena to replace WWI: Western Front (which was always just intended as a tech possibility demo) area with a island hopping Pacific War AI arena but it was apparent the AH community would not accept AI content so given the insane level of effort involved I decided to exercise the better part of valor.
So in short Kuya, I doubt there would be much interest and it is a metric butt ton of work. Honestly I couldn't help. That was several years ago and I unloaded all that knowledge from RAM. I'd have to learn all over again and it be better for one of you guys to run with it.
cheers. Trips
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: hazmatt on June 29, 2025, 08:56:21 AM
That sounds like it would have been a blast! I'm not shocked that it got a cool reception. Seems people want it "their way" or "no way" not considering that the rest of the world may not think exactly like them. Sadly I think that kind of thinking is going to be the end of AH3.
In one of those other games (that I dare not mention) They combine AI attack planes and bombers with real players. I really think that's the way to go. The AI give the new players something to use to work on their gunnery and to learn that dead 6 is not a good angle to attack a bomber.
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: The Fugitive on June 29, 2025, 10:30:15 AM
That sounds like it would have been a blast! I'm not shocked that it got a cool reception. Seems people want it "their way" or "no way" not considering that the rest of the world may not think exactly like them. Sadly I think that kind of thinking is going to be the end of AH3.
In one of those other games (that I dare not mention) They combine AI attack planes and bombers with real players. I really think that's the way to go. The AI give the new players something to use to work on their gunnery and to learn that dead 6 is not a good angle to attack a bomber.
I always thought that the real draw of Aces High was that you were fighting REAL foes and not AI. I think the coolness of AI in the game proves that out.
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: Devil 505 on June 29, 2025, 11:04:23 AM
I always thought that the real draw of Aces High was that you were fighting REAL foes and not AI. I think the coolness of AI in the game proves that out.
That's definitely part of it, but if the AI was able to run well enough to fit in with players, I'd be all for it. There's a net positive on using AI for fill slots in events for unpopular attack planes, but the AI we have is not suitable.
Ironically the warping you saw (well probably the more noticeable stuff) was slave bombers of a human player formation janking back and forth. In a pure AI formation, we never saw that. I'd recommend NOT using bomber formation mode for human slots. I'd test AI only formations with single human bombers slots.
I'm not saying you are wrong, but 30 AI planes definitely seems more laggy than 10 players with formations on my end.
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: CptTrips on June 29, 2025, 11:17:15 AM
I'm not saying you are wrong, but 30 AI planes definitely seems more laggy than 10 players with formations on my end.
It would be worth more controlled tests. I recollect that was mine and and Nef's conclusion at the time I had left the effort. Maybe he learned more. I think he was going to discuss it with HT.
I think Nef said someone had told him they saw that in a scenario with just human+slaves formations yet Nef and I never saw it in our AI only formation during extensive testing. But maybe it is a load issue that needs enough other players to manifest. If so, spacing those bomber groups out 4-5mi apart might alleviate a lot of that.
Ideally every event would be 500 live humans and no AI at all. Humans will always be more fun to kill. At the point you guys start running BoB events with 15 players, you might have to start compromising on some of those ideals out of practicality.
[Edit] BTW, at the time Nef and I knew we would be or nearly be exceeding the capabilities.
It's not an excuse. ;) The plan was going to be go wild and exceed the Vne so we can find it, then in future missions start dialing it back to a level the system can handle and stop at the highest count we can get with acceptable performance.
So we expected things to start to break down at those levels. I'm not sure if Nef ever found the optimization point but it is prolly lower than were trying or space them out to lower the local load at any time. But I had moved on, and later he moved on too. ;)
[EDIT AGAIN]
Kuya, if you wanted to start dabbling to build experience with the tech, I'd contact Nef and see if he can help you re-run some of his FE missions again. They'll get you some experience with low effort and if you wanted to take it further those might be a good template to start editing from and using as an example.
$0.02.
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: CptTrips on June 29, 2025, 11:58:59 AM
I'm not saying you are wrong, but 30 AI planes definitely seems more laggy than 10 players with formations on my end.
And I was referring to that weird back and forth movement of the slave bombers which is a separate weirdness other than just low regular FPS. Go watch Animl's Masters of the Air vid for numerous examples of the back and forth dance.
Low FPS is just a straight function of of poly counts. 36 bombers and equal fighters all in one small area all shooting thousands of bullets in all direction at the same time, yeah, that's going to take a FPS hit. So splitting those groups out to smaller numbers spaced apart should help with just raw FPS.
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: The Fugitive on June 29, 2025, 02:47:56 PM
That's definitely part of it, but if the AI was able to run well enough to fit in with players, I'd be all for it. There's a net positive on using AI for fill slots in events for unpopular attack planes, but the AI we have is not suitable.
I'm not saying you are wrong, but 30 AI planes definitely seems more laggy than 10 players with formations on my end.
I understand the context in a scenario, but if you could have 50 more real players or 50 AI players in the next scenario, which would you prefer?
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: CptTrips on June 29, 2025, 02:51:41 PM
Ideally every event would be 500 live humans and no AI at all. Humans will always be more fun to kill. At the point you guys start running BoB events with 15 players, you might have to start compromising on some of those ideals out of practicality.
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: Devil 505 on June 29, 2025, 03:50:38 PM
Do you not understand that the drone is still connected to a real player?
But flown by AI.
Instead of a static waypoint in a file, it is merely guiding to a dynamic wp being continually replotted. But it is still an AI plane navigating to the same weigh point as if it came out of a file.
Any time you attack field ack, that is mostly AI. Ship guns mostly AI flak.
It would be a much more empty and sterile gaming environment without AI augmentation. The questions isn't whether you should have AI augmentation, but how much and where.
But I don't care, so you guys do you. I was just answering Kuya's question since he brought me up.
Don't bother, Kuya.
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: AKKuya on June 29, 2025, 05:22:07 PM
Thanks Trips.
I tried several years ago on making AI missions. Didn't understand it. No big deal.
Just thought that AI could enhance special events and give AI creators some form of canvas to utilize their imaginations.
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: CptTrips on June 29, 2025, 05:34:55 PM
After a series of test events, the kinks get worked out for playability. Now, an event can be tailored to incorporate AI as added tactical planning for a side FSOCIC/Scenario CO. This feature would create the use of diversionary tactics and give additional targets to shoot down.
This game is player based. No argument there. AI is just an added tool to keep things fluid.
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: Eagler on June 30, 2025, 06:33:30 AM
I just cannot get into it. I just can't. I want to battle the human mind and reflex. And every pilot thinking different. I know it all has good intentions. Good for those who like it, god bless em,.. it's just not me.
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: Dadtallica on June 30, 2025, 03:35:19 PM
Given the current ability of AI is there anyway to update our AI?
I would be interested in AI waves in the MA every so often at random a certain number of AI would pop up and do some kind of mission. Of course they would get repetitive after a while without any sort of repetitive maintenance or updating, but it would be interesting if you use it as a way to alleviate player country unbalance.
I would like to make missions is that still possible? They can be fun now and then if you just want to get away. I would love to be able to make these.
Title: Re: AI Scenario Events
Post by: CptTrips on June 30, 2025, 04:27:10 PM
I would like to make missions is that still possible? They can be fun now and then if you just want to get away. I would love to be able to make these.
I would assume that it is still possible. You have the editor in your normal distro.
Good part is it hasn't really changed since 2018 so the old documentation is still pretty close.