This always bugged me ww2

[Nefarious]

I recall somewhere it was something most pilots did once they were shot up bad, almost like a sign of "Ouch, you got me" or "I'm done, hold your fire", like a mercy sign almost.

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by crockett
The other instance was a B17 I think it was had the right gear drop due to loss of hydraulic pressure. While it might not have made a big B17 so unstable that it went out of control, but one thing it would have done was slowed it down.

The B-17 does not have hydraulic raising and lowering of the gear.  It is raised and lowered by electric motors.  One in each gear well.  The gear is held in it's "Up" position by the position of the jack screw which holds the tourque link in a "locking" position.  The jack screw (about a 1 inch thick fine threaded steel rod) is not designed to take stress other than raising or lowering the gear.  Damage will allow the gear to literally fall from the wells.  They will only stay down due to the force of the slipstream, but will collapse if any weight is placed on them.

[Bodhi]

Ohh, I forgot to add that most American Fighters and Bombers have uplocks.  I can not think of a single one other than the B-17 that does not have an actual up lock.

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by crockett
Modern fighters will likely never see a actual dog fight again, so it's a mute point in this day and age. Guns on modern aircraft are there only for a "just in case" because we learned our lesson with the Phantom F4.

 

Here's a new word for you to learn:  Moot


It's a moot point, not a mute point.  you're welcome, carry on.

[Angus]

Originally posted by Nefarious
I recall somewhere it was something most pilots did once they were shot up bad, almost like a sign of "Ouch, you got me" or "I'm done, hold your fire", like a mercy sign almost.

Sure it wasn't with flaps in a mode "overshoot me you SOB so I can toast you "

Or "I'm gonna land. NOWWWW!

[Halo]

This is why I never fly planes with retractable landing gear.  Danged new-fangled gadgets!

[WWhiskey]

Originally posted by crockett
Modern fighters will likely never see a actual dog fight again, so it's a mute point in this day and age. Guns on modern aircraft are there only for a "just in case" because we learned our lesson with the Phantom F4.

The last time I've heard any modern fighter using guns was during the Afghan war. One of our Chinook helicopters was shot down and the surviving soldiers were trapped on a mountain top surrounded by enemy Taliban fighters.

There was an F16 if I'm not mistaken that was making gun pass runs on a enemy bunker, because it was too close to our troops to use ords. The air commander actually pulled the pilot out of the fight because they were afraid he was going to hit the friendly troops.

The last air to air kill using guns on a fighter if I'm not mistaken was done by an Israeli pilot during the 7 day war. So needless to say dog fights are a thing of the past, now daysa you are dead before you even see the other air craft.

In WW2 it was a diffrent story and I think manual latches could have made the diffrence in many fights.

think we heard that no need for guns story before!
the pilot will always want guns and to take them from him is to tell him he as a fighter is useless! they may be a last gasp, but the sike. effect for the pilot is a great benifit to his ability to complete his mission and gives him a feeling of personal power to protect him self  just like people  in the U.S. and there second ammendment rights they may not save us but they make us feel better

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by crockett
Modern fighters will likely never see a actual dog fight again, so it's a mute point in this day and age. Guns on modern aircraft are there only for a "just in case" because we learned our lesson with the Phantom F4.

The last time I've heard any modern fighter using guns was during the Afghan war. One of our Chinook helicopters was shot down and the surviving soldiers were trapped on a mountain top surrounded by enemy Taliban fighters.

There was an F16 if I'm not mistaken that was making gun pass runs on a enemy bunker, because it was too close to our troops to use ords. The air commander actually pulled the pilot out of the fight because they were afraid he was going to hit the friendly troops.

The last air to air kill using guns on a fighter if I'm not mistaken was done by an Israeli pilot during the 7 day war. So needless to say dog fights are a thing of the past, now daysa you are dead before you even see the other air craft.

In WW2 it was a diffrent story and I think manual latches could have made the diffrence in many fights.

7 day war? Or 6 day war?

Israeli F-15s made gun kills against Syrian Mig's in the 80's (you known, F-15's with AIM7/AIM9's....). Gun kills are not a thing of the past, the AMRAAM is not infalable.

[Slash27]

Originally posted by crockett
There was an F16 if I'm not mistaken that was making gun pass runs on a enemy bunker, because it was too close to our troops to use ords. The air commander actually pulled the pilot out of the fight because they were afraid he was going to hit the friendly troops.

 

Some F-14s also straffed a convoy in Afghanistan. Female pilots to boot.

[crockett]

Originally posted by Slash27
Some F-14s also straffed a convoy in Afghanistan. Female pilots to boot.

what is the world coming too...

[Xargos]

The day may come when you, nor your enemy, can be seen on radar or infrared.  If that happens, neither one of you would be able to get a lock on the other.  The only option would be for a close-up dogfight where both pilots could get vis on each other with guns being the only option.  

I believe to think that gun kills for fighters are a thing of the past is a mistake.

P.S.  Don't forget a EMP may take out a lot of electronics, so I wouldn't get too dependent on them in future wars.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by crockett
When watching old gun cam films from ww2 one of the first things that seems to go out is the hydraulics for the landing gears.  Which in effect causes one or maybe both landing gears to drop down.

Hmm I always thought that Soviet planes had gear locking on special stoppers in both positions. Some modern Russian jet planes still have mechanical "gear soldiers" (soldatiki shassi) indicating that gear is fully down, like Yak-42 airliner.

Did you see a "Chkalov" movie? http://imdb.com/title/tt0034353/ There is a scene where Chkalov can't release one of the gears in an I-16. I wonder how they shot it. I mean - there was a real pilot trying to retract one of the "legs", hitting a runway to unlock it.