Author Topic: the new T-34  (Read 3404 times)

Offline E25280

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Re: the new T-34
« Reply #60 on: September 01, 2008, 12:53:41 PM »
So "Death Traps: The Survival of an American Armored Division in World War II", ISBN-13: 978-0891418146, written by Lieutenant Cooper, who served with the 3rd Armored Division's Maintenance Battalion and was responsible for recovery and repair of Shermans, is apparently a total fantasy? 

I'd give another reference that mentioned Sherman crew lifetimes were measured in days and ,with recovery and repair, each Sherman ate through many crews.  Unfortunately I can't remember where it was so obviously it's untrue too.
That's all very interesting but completely irrelevant to the point.

The T-34s were just as much dead meat to the Tigers and Panthers, yet you never hear people refer to them as "death traps," do you?  Quite the contrary -- they are often lauded as the "best tanks of the war."

The double-standard is absolutely silly.
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Offline BigKev03

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Re: the new T-34
« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2008, 03:29:54 PM »
The difference in the T-34 armor was that it was sloped.  The degree of the slope made the T34 very good as far as protection even though its armor may not have been as thick.  Sloping armor even though thin can still protect just as good as thick armor.  The germans produced the panther based off of captured T34's.  Look at a panther and you see what the germans took from the T34.  Now back to the sherman, the original M4 was no match for most german tanks fielded after 1943.  The Panzer IV, as is in this game has the 75mm gun and it could take out a sherman easily but the sherman if it hit the panzer it was dead to.  But the Panther and tiger could take a sherman hit and keep on truckin.  The Easy 8 models had (without researchng) the same 76mm gun the M10 wolverine had and it was a good AT gun but armor was still not comparable to german tigers and panthers.  The T34 was a good tank because it has speed, sloped armor, and after the T34/85 came out it had a decent gun, though not as good as the 88 or the german 75mm on the panther which had a high muzzle velocity.   

Well, you are part of the way there anyway.  Let's see if we can move you along a bit.

In your original post you said:

Followed soon thereafter by:

So, to bring it all together . . .

You are correct that the Sherman had 2" of front hull armor, which is 51mm.  Guess what?  The "good armor" on the T-34/76 you like so much was 45mm thick.  Turrets, about 3", or 76mm on the Sherman.  The "good armor" on the T-34/76 was 70mm.

So, whether you intended to or not, you echoed the "popular myth" that the Sherman had "paper thin" armor while the T-34's is "good," even though they are nearly identical.

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: the new T-34
« Reply #62 on: September 01, 2008, 04:04:55 PM »
All tanks have sloped armor, even the Sherman.

The German tanks were petrol powered, yet you don't hear of them being called 'Ronsons'.

A study done on Sherman casualties has one crew member being killed per tank taken out.

Offline Angus

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Re: the new T-34
« Reply #63 on: September 01, 2008, 04:16:39 PM »
The t-34 was...nicely sloped...on the small turret especially.
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: the new T-34
« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2008, 05:50:59 PM »
I think it is a joke at how the T34 turret is made of cheese in AH2.  One shot to the front of the turret and *poof* the turret is damaged and you now have an armored car with a 7.62 MG in the hull.  I was taught the trick of "turning" the turrent to an incoming round, but that is even more of a joke.  I'm not into gaming the game.

Lets hope the T34/85mm lives up to its name.

Oh... and I'll add this here instead of the PzrV thread: in this game the PzrV would own each and every other tank in the game.  Due to the factors not able to be modeled into the game... the PzrV would be unstoppable.  The T34 was not the best tank of the war when all things worked as they should have.  1v1 the PzrV ruled. 
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Offline FullPwr

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Re: the new T-34
« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2008, 05:55:24 PM »
If Htc Is Going to Add The T34/85..Where Is The Panther...IIRC ..BTT..The T34/85 Rolled OnTo Field The Panthers Were On The Prowl  :devil

Offline E25280

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Re: the new T-34
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2008, 08:12:30 PM »
The difference in the T-34 armor was that it was sloped.  The degree of the slope made the T34 very good as far as protection even though its armor may not have been as thick.  Sloping armor even though thin can still protect just as good as thick armor.  The germans produced the panther based off of captured T34's.  Look at a panther and you see what the germans took from the T34.  Now back to the sherman, the original M4 was no match for most german tanks fielded after 1943.  The Panzer IV, as is in this game has the 75mm gun and it could take out a sherman easily but the sherman if it hit the panzer it was dead to.  But the Panther and tiger could take a sherman hit and keep on truckin.  The Easy 8 models had (without researchng) the same 76mm gun the M10 wolverine had and it was a good AT gun but armor was still not comparable to german tigers and panthers.  The T34 was a good tank because it has speed, sloped armor, and after the T34/85 came out it had a decent gun, though not as good as the 88 or the german 75mm on the panther which had a high muzzle velocity.   
As MiloMorai points out, the armor on the front hull of the Sherman is also sloped, and gets a similar benefit.

Furthermore, the slope of armor certainly helps against smaller caliber weaponry, but is less effective against larger caliber shells.  The same 37mm AT shells that so famously bounced off of the T-34s would have also bounced off of the Sherman -- although, unfortunately for the Americans, they encountered few weapons of that size vs. what the T-34s faced in '41-'42.

Take a look at this link (and hopefully the translator works because the original site is Russian).  It is an interview with Soviet tanker Dmitriy Loza who wrote a book about his experiences using Lend-Lease Shermans in WWII.  It is quite long, but well worth the read.  Note his experiences and impressions of the Sherman and how sharply it contrasts to much of what you hear.  A few of the relevant quotes:

Regarding the tendency to "cook off":
Quote
For a long time after the war I sought an answer to one question. If a T-34 started burning, we tried to get as far away from it as possible, even though this was forbidden. The on-board ammunition exploded . . . When a Sherman burned, the main gun ammunition did not explode. Why was this? . . . Because our high explosive rounds detonated and the American rounds did not? In the end it was because the American ammunition had more refined explosives. Ours was some kind of component that increased the force of the explosion one and one-half times, at the same time increasing the risk of detonation of the ammunition.
His impressions of the armor:
Quote
I want also to add that the Sherman's armor was tough. There were cases on our T-34 when a round struck and did not penetrate. But the crew was wounded because pieces of armor flew off the inside wall and struck the crewmen in the hands and eyes. This never happened on the Sherman.
Regarding whether the US was slow to recognize any problems:
Quote
In general the American representative worked efficiently. Any deficiency that he observed and reported was quickly and effectively corrected.
And possibly the most relevant from the beginning of the interview:
Quote
When someone says to me that this was a bad tank, I respond, "Excuse me!" One cannot say that this was a bad tank. Bad as compared to what?

This last quote of his sums up my feelings exactly.  The primary complaint that the Sherman was a "bad tank" centers around the fact it could not compete against the German heavy tanks.  Expecting any 30 ton tank to stand toe-to-toe to the 45 ton Panther or 55 ton Tiger is foolish -- but it does not mean the tank itself is "bad."  It means it is a medium tank going against a heavy tank with predictable results.  If your standard criteria for whether a tank is "bad" is whether it can fight toe-to-toe with a tank 50-75% larger than itself, then you will also have to relegate the T-34, PzkwIV, and every other medium tank to "bad tank" status.
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: the new T-34
« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2008, 09:59:06 PM »
E25280, even the side armor of the Sherman was sloped. ;) How many shots are perpendicular to the armor face?

SOP of the Tiger was to 'park' at an angle to the advance to give it's already heavy armor some slope.

Offline Charge

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Re: the new T-34
« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2008, 07:20:37 AM »
Face hardened and cast armour are not directly comparable in thickness.

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