Author Topic: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast  (Read 2913 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2009, 12:56:59 PM »

Not until war was declared in December 1941, and even then Ford retained control over its assets and production plants in Vichy-France until 1943. Profits were paid trough Swiss banks.

According to the report released by Ford in 1999 in response to a lawsuit filed by former forced slave laborers, Ford had no control over its subsidiary, Ford Werke and did not profit from war time operations at the German plant.

Report summary

Full report (need Adobe Acrobat)


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2009, 02:38:41 PM »
Have you read the report? Even such a nice sanitized PR publication can only sugarcoat the truth:


"After war broke out in September 1939, commercial
transactions between the United States and Germany
were difficult
. Ford and Ford-Werke had problems
communicating. In June 1941, the German
government froze all U.S. assets in Germany. A postwar
U.S. military investigation concluded that American
influence over Ford-Werke decreased after the outbreak
of war and ceased altogether in December 1941 with
U.S. entry into the war.
"

"Soon after the United States entered the war in
December 1941, Ford-Werke was directly regulated by
the Reich Commissioner for the Treatment of Enemy
Property. On May 15, 1942, the Superior Court in
Cologne declared Fo r d - We r ke to be under enemy
influence and appointed Schmidt, a German who had
been a key manager at Ford-Werke since 1926, as custodian."


The fact remains that Ford did indeed do business with the Germans after war broke out. Whether Ford made any profits (they did, but not much) or were responsible for using slave labor is irrelevant.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 02:44:48 PM by Die Hard »
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2009, 02:45:01 PM »
Whoa!
Impressive.
Always reminds me of the little shock I had when I found out that the lend-lease to Britain was passed with a very little majority.
The arms most vital were escort DD's and then a ... lot.
But very much was obsolete, - would have been scrapped had no war on the USA occured, and for the rest, it was both under, at, and above standard.....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Rich46yo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7358
Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2009, 03:54:54 PM »
Whoa!
Impressive.
Always reminds me of the little shock I had when I found out that the lend-lease to Britain was passed with a very little majority.
The arms most vital were escort DD's and then a ... lot.
But very much was obsolete, - would have been scrapped had no war on the USA occured, and for the rest, it was both under, at, and above standard.....


The "opposition" you speak about was opposition to involvement in another European war. The general public, and a pretty big chunk of congress, was against getting involved in another Euro-shenanigan where millions are killed over what? Dont confuse that sentiment with Pro-Nazism because very few Americans were Pro-Nazi. Americas Congress rightly saw passage of Lend Lease as Americas first actual involvement in the war and it didn't play out to well with the public who wanted none of it.

If I had to pick what slice of America had a pro-Nazi bent, at least in the early days, I'd probably pick big Industrialists like Ford who no doubt liked the way Hitler destroyed the German labor unions and enslaved the German worker to his Industrialist master. Then, like every other country, we no doubt had our Jew haters as well. I remember old man Kennedy was a Hitler admirer in the beginning. I dont know what that was about maybe as an Irish Yank he saw Hitler as an antagonist of England and welcomed it. There was fairly significant Nazi/Irish collusion in the war. Or maybe Kennedy was just a flake. Either way his early Pro-Nazi views killed his chances for later public office, tho he was able to later buy an ambassadorship to England.

You seem to state Ford ran its German outfit after PH as if a state of war didn't even exist between America and Germany. And then post evidence it was indeed taken over by the Reich. Which is it? And does anyone here really believe Ford Mo.Co. continued to do business building products for the German war machine even after a state of war existed between us? Such things are called "treason" and we put people to death for it back then.

So I dont know where this thread is going. Hitler had a lot of people fooled until he started persecuting the Jews, killing his own disabled citizenry, and then started a major war. There was no wide scale support for him in America at the time, simply wide scaled distrust at being drawn into another war. The neutrality acts themselves started off as vehicles to keep us out of the conflict, "of course later they became vehicles to lean towards the Democracies involved".

Dont forget that when bullets first started flying in 1938 the US army was only the 18'th biggest in the world. With only 175,000 soldiers all told. The German army had 1.5 million for the invasion of Poland. 2.5 million under arms for the attack on France. So America was hardly a world player at the time.
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11633
Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2009, 03:59:57 PM »
Major corporations have always made huge profits from war. Just look at Haliburton today and who are in the executive board..
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2009, 06:59:41 PM »
Rich, the bullets of WW2 started flying in 1939. And that was September. Almost...1940. And while the US army was not up to scratch in manpower, you omit the resources, industrial output, and the geographical location. Something of a mistake here mate, same as the Japanese high command did....
Here:
"The "opposition" you speak about was opposition to involvement in another European war. The general public, and a pretty big chunk of congress, was against getting involved in another Euro-shenanigan where millions are killed over what? Dont confuse that sentiment with Pro-Nazism because very few Americans were Pro-Nazi. Americas Congress rightly saw passage of Lend Lease as Americas first actual involvement in the war and it didn't play out to well with the public who wanted none of it."

The "Opposition" was almost half of your political force voting AGAINST LEND-LEASING arms (of which very much was WWI vintage) to the British as late as 1941. What made the difference was Roosevelt. This could have gone the other way without the push of the president. Would perhaps have turned history otherwise, and if it hadn't, it would still be interesting, - the day the US senate flushed the proposal of lend-leasing military accessories to the only power in the world fighting the Axis at the time.
Some nice figures in the opposition camp (not necessarily senate members) would count as one Kennedy and Lindberg.
The deal had nothing to do with cannon feeding in land warfare, and included a pre-payment in gold (picked up in S-Africa) as well as the USA getting UK bases....and very much more.
You can call it neutralism, - maybe it was. Or an amalgam of that and opportunitism...



It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2009, 11:28:02 PM »
You seem to state Ford ran its German outfit after PH as if a state of war didn't even exist between America and Germany. And then post evidence it was indeed taken over by the Reich. Which is it? And does anyone here really believe Ford Mo.Co. continued to do business building products for the German war machine even after a state of war existed between us? Such things are called "treason" and we put people to death for it back then.

You're right.  There is no supporting evidence that Ford had any control over Fordwerke after the Germans took it over or the US executives had any knowledge of the use of slave labor.

Quote

So I dont know where this thread is going. Hitler had a lot of people fooled until he started persecuting the Jews, killing his own disabled citizenry, and then started a major war. There was no wide scale support for him in America at the time, simply wide scaled distrust at being drawn into another war. The neutrality acts themselves started off as vehicles to keep us out of the conflict, "of course later they became vehicles to lean towards the Democracies involved".



There was popular support for Nazi Germany prior to 1941 in the United States, one of the most vocal US supporters was Charles Lindburgh.

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2009, 03:52:14 AM »
You're right.  There is no supporting evidence that Ford had any control over Fordwerke after the Germans took it over or the US executives had any knowledge of the use of slave labor.

Quite correct, but the Germans didn't take over Ford-Werke until war was declared between Germany and the U.S. in December 1941. The world war started in 1939, and Germany started invading countries in 1938. Also Ford continued to exact some control over Ford Of France in Vichy-France until at least November 1942. The Ford report you posted corroborates this. So the original argument by Rich that U.S. companies didn't trade with warring parties due to legislation prior to the lend-lease deals is incorrect. Several U.S. companies, including Ford, were instrumental in arming Nazi Germany in the 1930s and continued to do business with Germany long after the war started. That is an incontrovertible fact.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2009, 11:42:23 AM »
...And a sad fact.
Doesn't exactly hit all history books though.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline redwing7

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 288
Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2009, 12:43:28 PM »
Although the original topic is completely lost, these are some of the most interesting posts I've read in a long time. Thanks for all the info.  :salute
THUNDER MOB

"and when they bury me, may it be face down...so all my critics can kiss my ass!"  Bobby Knight

Offline henchman

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 135
Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2009, 05:02:41 PM »
Although the original topic is completely lost, these are some of the most interesting posts I've read in a long time. Thanks for all the info.  :salute


I agree. I just posted an article i saw on CNN, and it turned into some interesting reading. Thanks Fellas. :aok
71 Squadron RAF

(Crazy Gang) R.I.P.