Author Topic: let's put this map thing in perspective...  (Read 392 times)

Offline 715

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let's put this map thing in perspective...
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2002, 01:18:35 PM »
Well... everyone else has commented on the map so I guess I'll try too.  I think the pizza shape IS a problem even though it shouldn't matter at all.  When you pull up the map, and it's an obvious pizza, it conciously or subconciously detracts from immersion because it looks a tad silly.  This is probably the factor that emboldens people to comment on other features they don't like.  Is this the AKs fault: absolutely, positively not.  Is it HTs fault: not really.  It all stems from a very well intentioned constraint put on by HTC: that the map not favor any side and be symmetrical.  Well, if you have three sides and have to be totally symmetrical you have only two choices: a triangle or a pizza.  If you want rivers inside the periphery then you get the pizza slices.  There is no other choice.

The other major complaint heard also is caused by a preconstraint: the the map be large.  HTC wants a game that can handle more customers.  It's not their fault that those extra customers haven't shown up in less than a week to populate the map.

Another complaint: the colors and textures.  Well, I live in a desert not unlike this terrain and I can tell you that this is what it looks like.  It may not be pretty (and to tell the truth I hate where I live) but it is realistic.

The one complaint I think is somewhat warranted is the altitude issue and the depth of the canyons.  The high altitude does deny significant portions of the map to some people's favorite planes.  That is a valid issue which I believe is being addressed.  The canyons are a trade off.  The designers undoubtedly wanted to provide the fun of canyon fights.  The trouble is the performance of WWII aircraft make most realistic canyons just minor creases in the terrain.  Only the Grand Canyon becomes something that actually becomes visible and a navigational constraint.  That's one of the most annoying things about RL flight: at legal altitudes everything looks flat as a pancake and boring.  There is no doubt that the canyons would fail a geological reality test (unless they are made of solid granite) but if they were more realistic they would be less fun.

What's the solution: I think it is to give up the hope for completely even land distribution, design a  more realistic terrain, and the deal with the inevitable "knights/bishops/rooks are at a disadvantage" complaints.

AKs: please don't be demoralized or annoyed by the  comments.  The problems stem entirely from the constraints you had to work under.  Notice that there are few (or no) complaints of bugs, sink holes, unmatching textures, and other terrain bugaboos.  It is very fine work and the work is appreciated probably by almost everyone.  You should not swear off terrain design forever because of the response.  You should talk to HT and convince him a totally symmetrical map won't work and then start work on a new map closer to the design you would want as the second map in the MA rotation.  (But first you should get HT to give you guys free accounts in payment ;)

Salute,    715

Offline AKIron

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let's put this map thing in perspective...
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2002, 01:25:59 PM »
Oddly enough, while building it, we came up with several nicknames for the map, but pizza never occurred to us.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline CptTrips

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let's put this map thing in perspective...
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2002, 01:44:13 PM »
>It all stems from a very well intentioned constraint put on by
>HTC: that the map not favor any side and be symmetrical.

Just to clairfy a bit.

It was HTC's constraint that the map be balanced and not favor any side due to geography.  

They did NOT dictate that the terrain be symetrical.  The symetry was our attempt to gauruntee balance.  It was just one possible solution to the constraint.  Possibly not the best one.


Regards,
Wab
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline AKSWulfe

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Re: let's put this map thing in perspective...
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2002, 03:01:25 PM »
Ak's made a map and are now being very thin skinned about any critisism of it.  

I beg to differ, but then again I've only read all of the threads STARTED by other people simply to degradate our map or HTC over using this map. 2 1/2 years, there's still people (and you are included in this lazs) who will come here and produce some of the most asinine complaints that it makes me wonder if they've ever had to deal with dissappointment in their lives without crying on someone's shoulder.

first off... they act like the entire community begged em to spend countless hours on a map and then.... after they had done all this labor for free... we pounded them with venemous, ungrateful vitroholic whines.

True, no one asked us to. We did it though to prove that user made maps can and will be used in the MA. However, it is also true that a lot of posts here regarding the map are "venemous, ungrateful vitroholic whines".

I would simply like to mention that I never asked em to do anything.   I would have been just as happy (or unhappy) if they didn't bother and we had the new release with the old maps... I would also like to point out that..... by a large margin.... the worst venom and vitriol.... comes from the defenders of the map... not the detractors.
lazs


So basically Lazs, what you are saying is you would prefer the game to remain in  a stagnant state so you can enjoy the quakeball warpfests of the old map as opposed to the new quakeballs that don't have nearly as much warping?

And you would prefer it that HTC not test new ideas that could potentially bring in more players, so when those new players DO come in and the new idea is finally tested... it turns out it doesn't work and AH becomes WWIIOl, and virtually everyone leaves.

Whether you can see it or not, this map was designed for far more players than the MA can currently handle... but we have to test it first...
-SW

Offline lazs2

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let's put this map thing in perspective...
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2002, 04:01:05 PM »
well..... you could level out the alts some... rip out about 4 or 5 sectors of filds and leave the space barren and then at the isolated part..... Make that an "early war plane only area".   Now that would be worthwhile.

Now SW... name ONE assinne complaint I have ever made.  Not saying I haven't but I simply don't recall one and I bet you don't either.

I didn't say that I prefered the game to stay stagnant.    No way could you believe that if you have ever read anything I posted.    I ask for nothing but change...  but.... crappy change is not worth doing.  why bother making a change that is worse?    

If this map is for WHEN we get the magical 1,000 players or WHEN we get seperate "areas" for early war planes then fine....  lets retire it and bust it back out if and when these things occur.  right now it is mereley lowering the player base and making for an even more "late plane only" centric arena.

Think about it.... we have here (arguably) the most anticipated release ever...  The new feartures are pretty much liked but... we have les players on than before the release...  What exactly would you attribute that too?

So ak's.... you either wasted your time on a big turkey or.... you did a fine job and are just way ahead of your time....   either way... let's go back to the old maps now that you've had your fun.
lazs

Offline AKIron

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let's put this map thing in perspective...
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2002, 04:04:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
  Think about it.... we have here (arguably) the most anticipated release ever...  The new feartures are pretty much liked but... we have les players on than before the release...  What exactly would you attribute that too?
 


I would expect fewer players over the 4th weekend however there were over 450 in the MA until very late last night. Doesn't sound like a numbers problem to me. Where are you getting your numbers Lazs?
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline lazs2

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let's put this map thing in perspective...
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2002, 04:15:03 PM »
are you saying that we didn't ever have 450 players before the new release?   come on...   face it... this thing should be jammed full.
lazs

Offline AKIron

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let's put this map thing in perspective...
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2002, 04:18:00 PM »
Seems to have about the usual numbers to me. Thought you were saying the numbers had fallen, guess I misunderstood.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline lazs2

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let's put this map thing in perspective...
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2002, 04:33:13 PM »
I believe that overall we do have probly somewhat less on than before but.... worse.... we should have way more.   The anticipated increase has not happened.   Certainly, even you can see that we should have had a huge INCREASE and that anything less than an increase is not good.

but ok.... I admit it.   Your map hasn't completely destroyed the player base yet.
lazs

Offline AKIron

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let's put this map thing in perspective...
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2002, 04:40:52 PM »
Just so we're clear, no longer is it my map, or the AK's. As I'm sure you know, Hitech can pull it any time he wants.

He is much smarter than me by not getting involved in this bickering.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Vermillion

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let's put this map thing in perspective...
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2002, 06:05:53 PM »
Quote
Seems to have about the usual numbers to me.


Yup and thats Lazs' point.

After a new release, numbers should be UP by 20%-40% for the first couple of weeks.  And then fall off to the "normal" levels.

Offline aknimitz

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let's put this map thing in perspective...
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2002, 07:12:02 PM »
Numbers should be UP by 40 % after a new release!?  Holy moses thats absurd! Thats saying as of right now we should have (at a max) 675 players. Never ever have I seen an increase of that magnitude in such a short time span. Hell I doubt I've seen a 20% increase immediately after a release.

I've stayed out of all this for the most part despite being, at least in the beginning, one of the major contributors. AKWabbit I suspect poured in more hours than I can possibly imagine. I personally know Curly poured in a boatload, and Iron did as well. I finally landed a job just at the beginning of its creation.

However, I can honestly say this map is a HUGE success. There truly is something for everyone. Ground battles without plane interference for those who feel like that. Canyon fights (by air or ground), furballs (yes, they still exist just not on the same level), bombing - you name it its there. But most of all strategy. Strategy never has been a significant part of any previous map, and now it is.

Granted, I think Hoolie's concerns are very valid concerns, as do most of the AK's. HTC is working on it - and I am sure he will have a solution.

In any event, just my thoughts :)

S!
Nim