Minister Louis Farrakhan

[AKIron]

A church didn't do this, nor did a Christian government. I never denied there aren't lunatics that commit crimes in the name of Christianity. What's happening in the middle east though is not by a few but rather by organized religion and religous government.

[AKIron]

Don't get me wrong here, I don't intend to defend Christianity. I am defending my right to religous freedom. Freedom that I wouldn't have in the middle east where Muslims are a majority.

[Vulcan]

Well, speaking as a relatively neutral viewpoint between the Christian vs Muslim argument, heres my view:

 - Christians seem to commit more 'abuse' crimes, such as molestation, theft, scams etc
 - the only recent major Christian driven conflict I can recall is the Bosnian/Serb stuff
 - I am unaware of any Christian terrorists. IE, the Oklahoma bombing was done by Christians but for political grounds not their religion
 - Muslims definitely abuse their women
 - Islamic terrorists seem to be split 50/50 on terrorism for political purposes (Chechnens), and terrorism for religion (Bali)
 - Islamic terrorists are hitting hard and consistantly
 - the Islamic community does seem to close ranks on whats going on behind the scenes
 - the Islamic community actively and unshamedly promotes hatred of Jews and Americans in their schools around the world
 - the general Christian community outnumbers the Islamic community

These are things that cross my mind when I think of these two religions.

I have very little time for the bulk of the Christian community, there certainly are some good people in there, but theres a lot of scammers and people with closed minds.

And in the past I've kind of agreed the the "Islam is peace" line, but I think the Islamic community needs to clean up its back yard or start facing reprocussions. I don't believe for a second that there aren't members of the general muslim community around the globe who knew some of whats going on. The "Islam is peace" line is wearing thin, they need to start helping instead of lying low.

These terrorists do not get around, live, eat, piss, toejam, and buy C4 without help.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by AKIron
Don't get me wrong here, I don't intend to defend Christianity. I am defending my right to religous freedom. Freedom that I wouldn't have in the middle east where Muslims are a majority.

I understand, I just want you to get away from making generalised statements that just aren't true.

"Freedom that I wouldn't have in the middle east where Muslims are a majority. "

Is that a fact?  You wouldn't have freedom of religion ANYWHERE in the middle-east?  Well, we know Isreal has freedon't of religion.  So your statement is true.  Let's see what other coutries in the middle-east have freedom of religion.

Edit: You know, I wouldn't be arguing at all if you made the statement, "Islamic extremists are bad.".

[AKIron]

You could take what I said another way Thrawn. Sure, I know that Muslims aren't a majority in Israel.  But in the middle eastern countries in which Muslims are a majority there is no freedom of religion, at least not what we consider to be freedom of religion  in the US.

I've beat this horse long enough. I never said or implied that all or even most Muslims are terrorists. Most are decent people I'm sure. However, it's either Islam or middle eastern culture that is very oppresive by my standards and I think yours as well. I tend to think it's both based on my observations. But what does it matter what I think anyhow?

[SaburoS]

Originally posted by AKIron
Saburo, You're still dodging the issues as I see them.

Let me ask you one more question, plain as I can.

Is true Islam being practiced in Saudi Arabia? Not a hard question, yes or no will do but feel free to elaborate.

First you define true Islam. Are you talking about the ruling monarchy? Are you talking about the population in general?
Are you actually talking about the culture or the religion of the Saudi govt and/or people? Are we talking about the majority Sunnis? The minority Shiites? How about the minority Christians?
Are you talking about Saudi Laws and customs verses what is written in the Koran?
Please try to stay away from prejudiced generalities. If you haven't figured it out by now, that has been my biggest problem with you (as well as a few others) in this thread.

You seemed to have ignored some of my questions. How about answering them instead of dodging the issue. I'll include a few more for you.

1)You sure that was a group of 'muslims' your father saw?
1a)How did he identify them as muslim?
1b)You sure they weren't Sikh or Hindu?
1c)LOL, festive...err, just maybe they could have been celebrating a wedding?
1d)Perhaps some of their party was visiting the US for the first time?
2)Look up the entire muslim population. (Shiite, Sunni, Druze, etc.) and tell me the #'s (and differences for extra credit).
2a)Give me a number of those celebrating the 9-11 terror attack and the #'s of those that didn't. Not guesses but facts.
3) What is the number of all the muslim terrorists (include all hijackers, suicide bombers, etc you know of)?
3a) What is the percentage of muslim terrorists to total muslim population (use #2 above)?
4) Are you or are you not for the freedom in this country for muslims, christians, etc to practice and worship in peace (something of the 1st ammendment)?
5) Do you truly believe that if there were an influx of muslim immigrants that we'd all be forced to convert to Islam?
5a) How in the world would that happen? (There's a reason I practice my second ammendment rights, to give my govt the perception of its armed citizen's resistance against unlawful AND tyrannical actions.)
5b) That the United States would somehow lose its Separation of Church and State?
6b) Are you willing to admit that perhaps it is some cultures and its people, not necessarily the religion that dictates the treatment of others?
7) Is your definition of 'leftist' as Socialist and/or Communist?
7a) If not, define 'leftist.'
Just curious why you would choose that label and why you seem to have a need to generalize things with a label.

BTW, not nice to be labeled(accurate or not) is it?

I'll be amazed and surprised if you answer all my questions. Don't think you will though.
Regards.

[H. Godwineson]

Thrawn,

There have been Christians who committed murder, rape, pillage and waged war.  But then, they weren't REALLY Christians, now were they?

Oh...and by the way...having spent some time in Egypt studying their religion and culture I can say that they do tolerate other religions.  But they have laws restricting their rights.  Christian churches and Jewis synagogues cannot be larger than the largest Muslim temples.  A Christian or a Jew can convert to Islam, but a Muslim cannot legally convert to Christianity or Judaism.  Coptic Christians are constantly being harassed about their beliefs, and their churches are subject to vandalism, as are any Christian icons.

Women who do not dress in an acceptable fashion are harassed on the streets.  Or have acid thrown in their faces.

And this happens in what is widely viewed as a "moderate" Muslim country.

Regards, Shuckins

[AKIron]

Originally posted by SaburoS
5) Do you truly believe that if there were an influx of muslim immigrants that we'd all be forced to convert to Islam?
5a) How in the world would that happen? (There's a reason I practice my second ammendment rights, to give my govt the perception of its armed citizen's resistance against unlawful AND tyrannical actions.)
5b) That the United States would somehow lose its Separation of Church and State?
6b) Are you willing to admit that perhaps it is some cultures and its people, not necessarily the religion that dictates the treatment of others?

Even though you refuse to answer my questions I will nonetheless answer a few of yours, maybe with a question though.

5. If Islam as it is practiced in the middle east and likely elsewhere (I'll admit ignorance here) were to become dominant in the US then yes, I think religous freedom would disappear.

5a. Kinda like it did in Iran perhaps?

6b. I think I already acknowledged this possibilty.

I never claimed to be an expert on Islam, nor do I have any desire to learn much more than what I've already observed. Seeing other religions persecuted to the point of death and women treated as property is really all I need to know about Islam.

[SaburoS]

Originally posted by AKIron


Even though you refuse to answer my questions I will nonetheless answer a few of yours, maybe with a question though.

5. If Islam as it is practiced in the middle east and likely elsewhere (I'll admit ignorance here) were to become dominant in the US then yes, I think religous freedom would disappear.

5a. Kinda like it did in Iran perhaps?

6b. I think I already acknowledged this possibilty.

I never claimed to be an expert on Islam, nor do I have any desire to learn much more than what I've already observed. Seeing other religions persecuted to the point of death and women treated as property is really all I need to know about Islam.

LOL you really are funny. Is it really that hard for you to take things on a case by case basis? Perhaps if you answered all my questions, you'd get all the answers you were looking for (whether you'd like what you saw might be another matter though).
Sorry, but if the United States had a larger Muslim population, we'd still enjoy our freedoms as our CULTURE is just too diverse and our HISTORY being what it is would not allow our losing religious freedoms.
Why didn't you answer most of my questions? Esp the ones regarding your question?
Afraid perhaps that your honest answers will expose how prejudice you might be to my specific questions? I'm really curious here. Take your time please. I'm looking for some thoughtful answers. You can do it.
BTW, are you saying that because it happened in Iran, it will  or might happen in the US? What, will our 200,000(guessing at number) or so Christian, Catholic, etc allow a muslim 'takeover'?

[AKIron]

Saburo, when have you answered any of my questions? You didn't. This is my last post to you and in this thread. Enjoy your 70 virgins.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by H. Godwineson
Thrawn,

There have been Christians who committed murder, rape, pillage and waged war.  But then, they weren't REALLY Christians, now were they?

This is how I view it.  Just like, in my opinon, Muslim extremists don't really follow the tenents of Islam.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by H. Godwineson
Thrawn,

There have been Christians who committed murder, rape, pillage and waged war.  But then, they weren't REALLY Christians, now were they?

I don't see why not. All christians are sinners.

Or maybe it is a scale sort of thing... you can be a christian if you don't violate any laws more serious than speeding.

[SaburoS]

Originally posted by AKIron
Saburo, when have you answered any of my questions? You didn't. This is my last post to you and in this thread. Enjoy your 70 virgins.

LOL, ...promises...promises. Even in leaving you just can't go without showing your prejudice and true self. You have a wonderful day!