High Alt Fights

[Widewing]

Originally posted by GunnerCAF
Great discussion all.  So, I am at 30K escorting B17 bombers in my P51.  I am about 5K above the bombers.  Several enemy aircraft are closing at co-altitude, or slightly lower at the bombers rear.  What is the best way to defend the bombers?  

Gunner

The best way to protect the bombers is to engage the fighters when they are least able to defend... That is when they are climbing.

Intercept the interceptors...

In other words, the escort should range out ahead of the bombers (beyond icon range). Assuming you have the altitude advantage, bounce any fighters climbing out to attack the bombers.  Simply forcing them to dive away to build some E will often be adequate. On the way back, hang behind the bombers and clear out potential attackers.

Close escort is generally useless as the enemy will often have enough speed to break through the escorts and get at the bombers.

Take at least 50% of the escorts out ahead and break up any attempts to reach the bombers. Position the balance of the escorts on the flanks and a couple following the formations to counter any that sneak in from behind.

One last point. If you are at 30k or higher and attacking lower fighters, watch your speed. Pull way back on the power and keep the airplane G loaded or you will quickly find yourself in compression. Pay close attention to the red TAS (True Air Speed) pointer on your air speed indicator...

My regards,

Widewing

[Badboy]

Originally posted by BaldEagl
While you touched on it here you failed to mention that, in this situation aerodynamics play a significant role in manouverability.

Not really failed to mention... that's the next part of the story. The natural progression from Es, the specific energy, is specific excess power, or Ps, and then you can really get to grips with maneuvering potential, including all of the aircraft's aerodynamic characteristics, as embodied in the energy maneuverability diagrams that fighter pilots refer to as doghouse plots. At that stage you almost have a complete picture, the only exception being transient maneuverability. That's quite a path to walk in one stretch, which is why I stopped when I did.

It is a shame that 40k P-51 didn't drop over on you as you stalled out at 38k, it would have probably been the highest rope-a-dope on record

Badboy

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by Badboy
It is a shame that 40k P-51 didn't drop over on you as you stalled out at 38k, it would have probably been the highest rope-a-dope on record

Badboy

He tried but didn't have the manouverability to pull it off.  In retrospect I'm nearly sure he was out hunting for exactly the opportunity I presented to him.

[Overlag]

if its a high alt fight and you are escorting bombers, remember the only thing you really need to do is make the enemy NOT shoot the bombers down.

If you try to shoot the fighter down by any amount of turning, you will fall behind the bombers very very fast.

for the escort task, i mainly fly 5-10k above bombers and dive on any fighters trying to get close. Keeping my E up all the time. If the enemy is below the bombers, trying to climb to him, i don't care, once hes co alt, and getting close i dive on him, making him dive off.... job done.

[Drano]

Originally posted by GunnerCAF
Great discussion all.  So, I am at 30K escorting B17 bombers in my P51.  I am about 5K above the bombers.  Several enemy aircraft are closing at co-altitude, or slightly lower at the bombers rear.  What is the best way to defend the bombers?  

Gunner

Remember your relative E-states. If you're only able to maneuver marginally then you can assume your NME are in the same boat. Nobody's gonna pull a 6G turn at 30K in a WW2 aircraft. Its different up there.

Be in a good position to do something if the bad guys show up. By that I mean be above by about 5K and somewhere out ahead of the bombers. That way you can at least shake up any attacks inbound along the bomber's path before the bombers get there. Never be co alt with the bombers you're escorting. Never be behind them either.

If the bad guys are attacking from below and behind as you describe that's a good thing actually--for your side. Attacking formations of bombers that way lends itself to a relatively slow closing speed. This makes them easy targets for the bomber's guns. It also makes it easy for you to nudge them away as any turn they make to avoid a fighter attack will cost them either speed or alt or both and the bombers will get away.

If you're escorting stay focused on your mission. The idea is to keep the bombers safe so that they can drop their bombs. Everything else is BS--so stay focused! You only need give the bad guy a nudge in one direction or another to remove him as a threat to the bombers--which is why you're there. Getting him to break downward is best as any climbing at alt will put him behind the bomber formations due to lack of speed.

Don't get tunnel vision on getting a kill. Kills can come once the bombers have dropped and are safely away. You don't want to take yourself out of the play by following a bad guy down below the bombers alt. You can't escort from below the bombers as you can expect the real threats to come from co alt or above the bombers. Bad guys below the bombers are no immediate threat. Once any threat is removed let him go and scan for more baddies.

Getting eyes on the bad guy as early as posible is key. Anticipate his line of attack early on and slowly maneuver yourself into position to come in at a spot somewhere in behind him in your guns range and closing on him as he makes his attack. The timing is a lot different at alt. Things move a lot more slowly than at lower alts. Like ballet vs salsa. Anticipate. Remember a lot of planes (especially the P-38s) will compress at high alts too. So watch your dive angle.

At this point, if you've timed it right and are coming down on the NME's 6, one of two things will happen. Chances are he'll either be focused on taking out the bomber and not looking back--which gives you a golden oppurtunity to get a sneak kill, or you'll at least ping him up enough to make him break off his attack. Either of those outcomes is a success insofar as bomber escort goes.

After you've shooed this fly off the back of the bomber look around for more bad guys. Climb slowly and overtake the bombers and set up position above and ahead of them and keep looking.

Drano

[GunnerCAF]

Originally posted by Drano
Be in a good position to do something if the bad guys show up. By that I mean be above by about 5K and somewhere out ahead of the bombers. That way you can at least shake up any attacks inbound along the bomber's path before the bombers get there. Never be co alt with the bombers you're escorting. Never be behind them either.

Drano

One of the best times I had escorting bombers in a senerio, we were in P51s.  We broke into wingman pairs and did criss crosses above and behind the bombers.  We would alternate crosses with another wingman pair  The criss crosses kept us at full speed, and we could regulate our speed relative to the bombers.  

The problem with forward fighters in scenarios is no radar on the map, and limited distance icons. Once they are of sight makes it easy to get seperated.  The forward fighters engage the first group of enemy, and they are no longer any help when the bombers encounter more fighters.  Keeping over the buffs makes it possible to stay with them.  

Keeping high to the rear lets you dive into anyplace in the formation.  But the only trick to this is getting the bombers to fly a tight formation  If they string out, there isn't any way for the fighters to defend.

[TequilaChaser]

good thread, liked ya posting Drano........

if the scenario mission is planned right, you would have 5 wings of fighters: a wing being 4 planes if possible


1st wing: out infront of the bombers right at dot/icon range
2nd Wing: directly above and behind the bombers 4 to 5k max ( any higher and you possible compress trying to drive bogies down )
3rd wing: behind the bombers at icon/dot range and slightly higher alt
4th & 5th wings: off to the left and right of the bombers respectively same icon/dot range distance.........speaking of scenarios ingeneral that is........

some times slot limitations will not allow as many for bomber escort, but most times it will!

maintaining good comms and SA is what it is all about, and following thru with the DIRECT ORDER given to you to perform, not varying 1 ioda......

and lets not forget the SCOUTS, the ones probing the skies for incoming threats ----- a good SCOUT is worth his weight in gold and then some.......

to finish my 2 cents--- one would be hard press to perform a manuever at 200/175/150 ias at 25K/30K the same as he would at 5K or sea Level (SL ) simply because the air is thinner----remember when high alt less gives you more and a maneuver at high alt will take nearly twice as long to execute than it takes at low alt ( ie...under 10K ) if you want to maintain/manage your E


edit: hmmm..should of read WW's post before posting   I just repeated his view of it as well...