Author Topic: Yanks; sometimes I wonder...  (Read 2019 times)

Offline 10Bears

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Yanks; sometimes I wonder...
« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2003, 01:21:45 PM »
Toad stop messin’ with Kim Jong and his long Dong... we’ll get to that in a bit..

No we haven’t debated the NK situation yet..

Quote
Tell, me, do you think a terrorist strike against the US that was equally or more successful than 9/11 would cause a world wide depression?


It shouldn’t no more than the Ok city bombing.. like anything, depends on how it’s handled. I do think naked aggression of a middle eastern country could very well send the entire world into depression. Is George Bush smart enough to realize this? Does he have vision?.. The only vision I see is from his handlers is "The Project For The New
American Century
 http://www.newamericancentury.org/  One could conclude that it’s pretty much a Superman script where we get to play the Gene Hackmen character.

What happens after Iraq falls?.. They might say they’ve found your Mass program of weapons of destruction (mass) but who cares about the U.N inspectors at this point.. will they be allowed to see these weapons for themselves?. I doubt it, the U.N will be more preoccupied with the aggression issue. Besides, by that time the focus will be on Syria/Iran et al. Your bet would only be good if the weapons (if found) were inspected by a third party.

Now to clarify the terms of the bet.. If you win I pay your SF squad mates subscription for 6 months?.. and if I win you pay the subscription of the entire 323rd for 6 months.. I’m I understanding this correctly?  Of course you know you’d be paying for Blitz..

As for the issue of  the probability of going in without U.N. sanction,  if as I said cooler heads would prevail, what cooler heads?.. do you see any? Naw... that’s not a safe bet.. I would be betting that someone up there has a sense of logic. They do.. but it’s a different kind.. You see, once Iraq falls next come Syria, then Iran. You would have American military force all the way across the middle east to central Asia. If Russia or China want to try anything snappy, no way.. U.S. will have them surrounded. That’s the plan.. if it sounds outrageous it is.. Don’t believe me? Do a google search on  The Project For The New American Century.. take note on who’s on their board of directors.

Offline Charon

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Yanks; sometimes I wonder...
« Reply #76 on: March 05, 2003, 02:30:43 PM »
I find this presentation by The Project For The New American Century member Kristol to be particularly interesting. As 10 Bears pointed out, you only have to look at the group's founders and earlier BOD (Cheney, Rumsfeld, various staffers) to see what the war with Iraq is all about:

William Kristol

Testimony Before
The House Committee on International Relations
Subcommittee on Middle East and South Asia

May 22, 2002

Since the end of World War II, the United States has regarded the al-Saud regime as a friend, or an ally, or at least a partner for stability in the Middle East. After September 11, it is time to call this assumption into question. It is time for the United States to rethink its relationship with Riyadh. For we are now at war -- at war with terror and its sponsor, radical Islam. And in this war, the Saudi regime is more part of the problem than part of the solution

The case for reevaluating our strategic partnership with the current Saudi regime is a strong one. Begin with the simple fact that 15 of the 19 participants in the September 11 attacks were Saudi nationals. That’s something the Saudis themselves could not initially admit. A large proportion -- perhaps as high as 80 percent, according to some reports -- of the “detainees” taken from Afghanistan to Guantanamo Bay are Saudis. And although Osama bin Laden has made much of his antipathy to the Saudi regime, his true relationship with the royal family is certainly more complex and questionable. The Saudis refused, despite the urgings of the Clinton Administration, to take him into custody in 1996 when Sudan offered to deliver him.

The Saudis also have been deeply implicated in the wave of suicide bombers that have attacked Israeli citizens, and American citizens in Israel, in recent years. Again, initial Saudi official reaction has been to deny the link. Even as documents captured by Israel in its spring offensive against the Palestinian Authority revealed the Saudi role, the kingdom’s ambassador to the United States denounced as “baseless” any suggestion that Saudi money “goes to evildoers.” The Israelis, Prince Bandar complained, were engaged in a “shameful and counterproductive” attempt to discredit his family “which has been a leading voice for peace.” The charge “that Saudi Arabia is paying suicide bombers” is “totally false,” he said.

The prince’s claim is proven false not simply by the documents discovered by Israel but by the Saudi government’s own press releases. One from January 2001 boasts how the “Saudi Committee for Support of the Al-Quds Intifada,” headed and administered by Prince Nayef bin Abdulaziz, the kingdom’s interior minister, has distributed $33 million to “deserving Palestinians” including “the families of 2,281 prisoners and 358 martyrs.” Other releases from subsequent months detailed further payments to Palestinian “martyrs” totaling tens of millions of dollars. Public announcements in Palestinian newspapers have given instructions on how to receive payments from the intifada committee. And the documents make clear the close connection between the Saudis and the terrorist Hamas organization in particular.

But even more important than funding terrorist acts has been the Saudi regime’s general and aggressive export of Wahhabi fundamentalism. “Saudi Arabia,” writes Michael Vlahos of the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, has “sought to make Islam a sort of wholly-owned subsidiary of the Saud family.” Wahhabi teachings, religious schools and Saudi oil money have encouraged young Muslims in countries around the world to a jihad-like incitement against non-Muslims. The combination of Wahhabi ideology and Saudi money has contributed more to the radicalization and anti-Americanization of large parts of the Islamic world than any other single factor.

It has taken something like willful ignorance on the part of successive American administrations to ignore such developments or explain them away, and to maintain the fiction that the Saudis are our “strategic partners.” Clinton National Security Adviser Sandy Berger lamented -- once safely out of office -- that “the veil has been lifted [from over U.S.-Saudi relations] and the American people see a double game they’re not terribly pleased with.” Brent Scowcroft, always cautious, admitted, “We [Americans and Saudis] probably avoid talking about the things that are the real problems between us because it¹s a very polite relationship. We don’t get all that much below the surface.” Former Secretary of State George Shultz bluntly terms the traditional U.S.-Saudi relationship “a grotesque protection racket.”

Clearly, the long tradition of quiet diplomacy with the Saudi monarchy no longer serves American purposes. The royal family has taken silence as consent in its strategy of directing Arab and Islamic discontent away from the House of Saud and toward the United States, Israel and the West. This is a strategy inimical to American security and a dangerously crippling problem in President Bush’s war on terrorism.

The first step in fashioning a realistic American policy toward Saudi Arabia is understanding the nature of the Saudi regime. We should begin by a public, detailed and thorough investigation -- perhaps initiated by this committee -- into the Saudi role in the events of September 11. This should be a broad investigation, addressing the ideological preparation, financing and recruitment of terrorists eager to commit suicidal attacks. Congress should not be deterred in this by any concurrent investigations by the Justice Department.

Public knowledge can then be the basis for public diplomacy. Only by applying pressure can we encourage whatever modernizing movement there may be within the royal family and the armed forces while isolating the radical Wahhabi clerics and their supporters. Prince Abdullah is sometimes seen as a reformer. We should give him every incentive to reform the current Saudi regime, and the main such incentive would be to tell him, privately and publicly, that the status quo is unacceptable.

Beyond speaking truth to the House of Saud and encouraging modernization within Saudi Arabia, the United States should demand that the Saudis stop financing and encouraging radical and extreme Wahhabism, beginning with mosques and charities in the United States but extending also throughout the Islamic world, including Pakistan, Afghanistan and other trouble spots. Given its role in providing a breeding ground for anti-American terror, the export of Wahhabism is a clear and present danger to the United States and its citizens. In general, we must make clear that the Saudis can no longer play both sides of the fence. What President Bush has demanded of others -- to cut off all support for terrorists and to stand with the United States -- applies also to Saudi Arabia.

At the same time, it is clear that we cannot base our strategy for the region on the hope that the Saudis will moderate their behavior to suit our interests. To the Saudis we have been, at best, allies of convenience, shielding them from other would-be regional hegemons with greater conventional military strength, larger populations and more diverse economies. The Saudi desire to create a caliphate of money and religious extremism depends upon an unwitting American partner.

So in addition to hoping for and encouraging change from within Saudi Arabia, we should develop strategic alternatives to reliance on Riyadh. In the military sphere, we have already begun to hedge, with agreements and deployments to other Gulf emirates. Although still the strongest influence on oil prices, other source -- in Russia, the Caspian Basin, Mexico and elsewhere -- can be developed and brought to market at a reasonable cost. The attacks of September 11 remind us that it is not just what we pay at the pump but what we pay in lives, security and international political stability that comprise the true price of Saudi oil.

In particular, removing the regime of Saddam Hussein and helping construct a decent Iraqi society and economy would be a tremendous step toward reducing Saudi leverage. Bringing Iraqi oil fully into world markets would improve energy economics. From a military and strategic perspective, Iraq is more important than Saudi Arabia. And building a representative government in Baghdad would demonstrate that democracy can work in the Arab world. This, too, would be a useful challenge to the current Saudi regime.


In sum, we should not be attempting to preserve our past relationship with Saudi Arabia but rather forging a new approach to the greater Middle East. We have learned at great cost that Persian Gulf dictators, be they in Tehran, Baghdad or Riyadh, are shaky partners at best and cause major problems at worst. In the future we must find an alternative, either through reform in Saudi Arabia and/or the fostering of other relationships with truer allies, to a Saudi regime that funds and foments terror.

Charon
« Last Edit: March 05, 2003, 02:59:07 PM by Charon »

Offline Eaglecz

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Yanks; sometimes I wonder...
« Reply #77 on: March 05, 2003, 03:55:46 PM »
LOL StSanta thats quite exact expresion of our feelings :D

ROFL

Offline Toad

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Yanks; sometimes I wonder...
« Reply #78 on: March 05, 2003, 10:39:33 PM »
10 Bears

Two bets, $45 each one.

First bet:

Ths war will happen. Time frame for bet to be determined between us. I think it will be this Spring, but desert weather may postpone it till fall. You think "cooler heads" will prevent this war. I don't. I'll wager you $45 it happens. If I win, you pay $45 to HTC to cover 3 months subscription of the one TAS member that is in the Special Forces of the USA and is currently "in theater". If you win, I send $45 to Ronald McDonald house and provide you either with a receipt or have them notify you it has been received in you name.

Second bet. When the war does happen, Iraq (most likely Republican Guard Units) will you either chemical or biological weapons currently prohibited by the UN against the US forces. If not, it will be clearly shown on worldwide media AFTER the war that Iraq had stockpiles of these weapons that WERE NOT known to the UN inspectors prior to the war. In other words, that they're lying through their teeth about not having this stuff. I'll wager you $45 this also happens. If I win, you pay $45 to HTC to cover another 3 months subscription of the one TAS member that is in the Special Forces of the USA and is currently "in theater". If you win, I send another $45 to Ronald McDonald house and provide you either with a receipt or have them notify you it has been received in you name.

If, for some reason, the TAS member does not make it through in good enough condition to play AH, you donate the money directly to his family.

Well?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!