Author Topic: 109's kill ratio (all variants from B to K)  (Read 26459 times)

Offline HoHun

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109's kill ratio (all variants from B to K)
« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2003, 04:52:39 AM »
Hi Batz,

>It wasn't until May '44 that the allies went after the Oil industry. Why they didn’t go earlier? Who knows, but look at the case with Luena included in the quote above. To win the battle with Leuna a total of 6,552 bomber sorties were flown against the plant, 18,328 tons of bombs were dropped and an entire year was required.

"A preliminary attack was launched on May 12, 1944, followed by another on May 28; the main blow was not struck, however, until after D-day. [...]

On June 30, Speer wrote: 'The enemy has succeeded in increasing our losses of aviation gasoline up to 90 percent by June 22d. [...]'

Leuna was hit on May 12 and put out of production. [...]"

The success of the fuel bombing offensive didn't take a year, it came within just two months. Leuna had to be kept under continous attack to prevent it going back to serious production again, but the campaign was a success right from May 12 on as Leuna's production went down to the 9% average capacity immediately, not gradually over the course of the year.

Had the "Big Week" targeted the oil industry instead of the aircraft industry, and had the 8th Air Force not joined Bomber Command's ineffective Berlin campaign, the bombing offensive would have made much more of an impact than it actually did.

>In the case of the the allied attacks on the German Oil production this seems to be the case. Even their success against the ball bearing plants was short lived.

The success against the ball bearing plants was short-lived because Schweinfurth war largely left alone after the first highly effective raids. Again, the lack of ball-bearings seriously hurt the German war production, and a third attack of the same magnitude could not have been compensated for as the stocks had been used up. Obviously, it was not an option for the 8th Air Force to hit Schweinfurt again without fighter escort, but from January 1944 on, long-range escorts became available.

There should be no doubt that the Allied bombing offensive was very effective, and there were plenty of missed opportunities to make it even more effective. Of course, it did not win the war as the war was fought on many fronts, but that doesn't mean it was insignificant or superfluous.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

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Re: 109's kill ratio (all variants from B to K)
« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2003, 05:05:17 AM »
Hi Ike,

>what was 109's K/D ratio from Spanish civil war to the end of WWII

To get back on topic, I've just found a mention of a victory-to-loss ratio for a limited campaign:

From April 1941 to November 1942, the Luftwaffe scored 1294 confirmed victories for about 200 Me 109 lost in combat.

(During this period, the Luftwaffe almost exclusively used the Me 109F. They identified their victims as 709 Tomahawks, 304 Hurricanes and 119 Spitfires, plus others/unidentified.)

That's a ratio of about 6.5:1.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Fishu

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109's kill ratio (all variants from B to K)
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2003, 09:30:33 AM »
Seems like nobody brought it up...   theres two things to dive: accerlation and maximum speed.

P47 accerlated very fast if put to dive, while spitfire was capable of achieving high speeds, but accerlated slower.


Also Bf109's drag cofficiency is way overrated from what I see and didn't see anyone saying a word on the 'high drag' comment.
Depending on source, it's drag coefficiency is about there with the spitfire.
Some sources would even give a little advantage for 109 over spitfire.

P51 isn't really so good of a fighter, since it was made to be capable of escorting over long ranges and that has had an effect on its capabilities.
The hype behind mustangs is overwhelming though, which explains why so many keeps thinking it as the best fighter of the WWII.

Offline HoHun

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109's kill ratio (all variants from B to K)
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2003, 11:47:40 AM »
Hi Fishu,

>Seems like nobody brought it up...   theres two things to dive: accerlation and maximum speed.

You're right of course, that's what I wrote:

"Have a look at these threads for a more in-depth discussion of this rather complex topic:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=91933&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending"

It really has been analyzed down to great detail on this forum :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Nomak

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109's kill ratio (all variants from B to K)
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2003, 11:42:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
The 109 was a better interceptor than the P-51. The P-51 was designed as a long-range escort fighter, and many compromises were made to achieve this.


Oh really??......

From Triple ace "Bud Anderson"

  Being on the outside of the turn, we are vulnerable to attack from the rear. I look over my right shoulder and, sure enough, I see four dots above us, way back, no threat at the moment, but coming hard down the chute. I start to call out, but . . .

    "Four bogeys, five o'clock high!" My element leader, Eddie Simpson, has already seen them. Bogeys are unknowns and bandits are hostile. Quickly, the dots close and take shape. They're hostile, all right. They're Messerschmitts.

    We turn hard to the right, pulling up into a tight string formation, spoiling their angle, and we try to come around and go at them head on. The Me 109s change course, charge past, and continue on down, and we wheel and give chase. There are four of them, single-seat fighters, and they pull up, turn hard, and we begin turning with them. We are circling now, tighter and tighter, chasing each other's tails, and I'm sitting there wondering what the hell's happening. These guys want to hang around. Curious. I'm wondering why they aren't after the bombers, why they're messing with us, whether they're simply creating some kind of a diversion or what. I would fly 116 combat missions, engage the enemy perhaps 40 times, shoot down 16 fighters, share in the destruction of a bomber, destroy another fighter on the ground, have a couple of aerial probables, and over that span it would be us bouncing them far more often than not. This was a switch.

    We're flying tighter circles, gaining a little each turn, our throttles wide open, 30,000 feet up. The Mustang is a wonderful airplane, 37 feet wingtip to wingtip, just a little faster than the smaller German fighters, and also just a little more nimble. Suddenly the 109s, sensing things are not going well, roll out and run, turning east, flying level. Then one lifts up his nose and climbs away from the rest.

    We roll out and go after them. They're flying full power, the black smoke pouring out their exhaust stacks. I'm looking at the one who is climbing, wondering what he is up to, and I'm thinking that if we stay with the other three, this guy will wind up above us. I send Simpson up after him. He and his wingman break off. My wingman, John Skara, and I chase the other three fighters, throttles all the way forward, and I can see that we're gaining.

    I close to within 250 yards of the nearest Messerschmitt--dead astern, 6 o'clock, no maneuvering, no nothing--and squeeze the trigger on the control stick between my knees gently. Bambambambambam! The sound is loud in the cockpit in spite of the wind shriek and engine roar. And the vibration of the Mustang's four. 50-caliber machine guns, two in each wing, weighing 60-odd pounds apiece, is pronounced. In fact, you had to be careful in dogfights when you were turning hard, flying on the brink of a stall, because the buck of the guns was enough to peel off a few critical miles per hour and make the Mustang simply stop flying. That could prove downright embarrassing.

    But I'm going like hell now, and I can see the bullets tearing at the Messerschmitt's wing root and fuselage. The armor-piercing ammunition we used was also incendiary, and hits were easily visible, making a bright flash and puff. Now the 109's trailing smoke thickens, and it's something more than exhaust smoke. He slows, and then suddenly rolls over. But the plane doesn't fall. It continues on, upside down, straight and level! What the hell . . . ?

    The pilot can't be dead. It takes considerable effort to fly one of these fighter planes upside down. You have to push hard on the controls. Flying upside down isn't easy. It isn't something that happens all by itself, or that you do accidentally. So what in the world is he doing?

    Well. It's an academic question, because I haven't the time to wait and find out. I pour another burst into him, pieces start flying off, I see flame, and the 109 plummets and falls into a spin, belching smoke. My sixth kill.

    The other two Messerschmitt pilots have pulled away now, and they're nervous. Their airplanes are twitching, the fliers obviously straining to look over their shoulders and see what is happening. As we take up the chase again, two against two now, the trailing 109 peels away and dives for home, and the leader pulls up into a sharp climbing turn to the left. This one can fly, and he obviously has no thought of running. I'm thinking this one could be trouble.

    We turn inside him, my wingman and I, still at long range, and he pulls around harder, passing in front of us right-to-left at an impossible angle. I want to swing in behind him, but I'm going too fast, and figure I would only go skidding on past. A Mustang at speed simply can't make a square corner. And in a dogfight you don't want to surrender your airspeed. I decide to overshoot him and climb.

    He reverses his turn, trying to fall in behind us. My wingman is vulnerable now. I tell Skara, "Break off!" and he peels away. The German goes after him, and I go after the German, closing on his tail before he can close on my wingman. He sees me coming and dives away with me after him, then makes a climbing left turn. I go screaming by, pull up, and he's reversing his turn--man, he can fly!--and he comes crawling right up behind me, close enough that I can see him distinctly. He's bringing his nose up for a shot, and I haul back on the stick and climb even harder. I keep going up, because I'm out of alternatives.

    This is what I see all these years later. If I were the sort to be troubled with nightmares, this is what would shock me awake. I am in this steep climb, pulling the stick into my navel, making it steeper, steeper . . . and I am looking back down, over my shoulder, at this classic gray Me 109 with black crosses that is pulling up, too, steeper, steeper, the pilot trying to get his nose up just a little bit more and bring me into his sights.

Offline Nomak

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109's kill ratio (all variants from B to K)
« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2003, 11:45:50 AM »
More from Bud.


More......

There is nothing distinctive about the aircraft, no fancy markings, nothing to identify it as the plane of an ace, as one of the "dreaded yellow-noses" like you see in the movies. Some of them did that, I know, but I never saw one. And in any event, all of their aces weren't flamboyant types who splashed paint on their airplanes to show who they were. I suppose I could go look it up in the archives. There's the chance I could find him in some gruppe's log book, having flown on this particular day, in this particular place, a few miles northwest of the French town of Strasbourg that sits on the Rhine. There are fellows who've done that, gone back and looked up their opponents. I never have. I never saw any point.

He was someone who was trying to kill me, is all.

So I'm looking back, almost straight down now, and I can see this 20-millimeter cannon sticking through the middle of the fighter's propeller hub. In the theater of my memory, it is enormous. An elephant gun. And that isn't far wrong. It is a gun designed to bring down a bomber, one that fires shells as long as your hand, shells that explode and tear big holes in metal. It is the single most frightening thing I have seen in my life, then and now.

But I'm too busy to be frightened. Later on, you might sit back and perspire about it, maybe 40-50 years later, say, sitting on your porch 7,000 miles away, but while it is happening you are just too damn busy. And I am extremely busy up here, hanging by my propeller, going almost straight up, full emergency power, which a Mustang could do for only so long before losing speed, shuddering, stalling, and falling back down; and I am thinking that if the Mustang stalls before the Messerschmitt stalls, I have had it.

I look back, and I can see that he's shuddering, on the verge of a stall. He hasn't been able to get his nose up enough, hasn't been able to bring that big gun to bear. Almost, but not quite. I'm a fallen-down-dead man almost, but not quite. His nose begins dropping just as my airplane, too, begins shuddering. He stalls a second or two before I stall, drops away before I do.

Good old Mustang.

He is falling away now, and I flop the nose over and go after him hard. We are very high by this time, six miles and then some, and falling very, very fast. The Messerschmitt had a head start, plummeting out of my range, but I'm closing up quickly. Then he flattens out and comes around hard to the left and starts climbing again, as if he wants to come at me head on. Suddenly we're right back where we started.

A lot of this is just instinct now. Things are happening too fast to think everything out. You steer with your right hand and feet. The right hand also triggers the guns. With your left, you work the throttle, and keep the airplane in trim, which is easier to do than describe.

Any airplane with a single propeller produces torque. The more horsepower you have, the more the prop will pull you off to one side. The Mustangs I flew used a 12-cylinder Packard Merlin engine that displaced 1,649 cubic inches. That is 10 times the size of the engine that powers an Indy car. It developed power enough that you never applied full power sitting still on the ground because it would pull the plane's tail up off the runway and the propeller would chew up the concrete. With so much power, you were continually making minor adjustments on the controls to keep the Mustang and its wing-mounted guns pointed straight.

There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. They trimmed you up for hands-off level flight. One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning. The third was for aileron trim, to keep your wings level, although you didn't have to fuss much with that one. Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat . . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial.

It's a little unnerving to think about how many things you have to deal with all at once to fly combat.

So the Messerschmitt is coming around again, climbing hard to his left, and I've had about enough of this. My angle is a little bit better this time. So I roll the dice. Instead of cobbing it like before and sailing on by him, I decide to turn hard left inside him, knowing that if I lose speed and don't make it I probably won't get home. I pull back on the throttle slightly, put down 10 degrees of flaps, and haul back on the stick just as hard as I can. And the nose begins coming up and around, slowly, slowly. . .

Hot damn! I'm going to make it! I'm inside him, pulling my sights up to him. And the German pilot can see this. This time, it's the Messerschmitt that breaks away and goes zooming straight up, engine at maximum power, without much alternative. I come in with full power and follow him up, and the gap narrows swiftly. He is hanging by his prop, not quite vertically, and I am right there behind him, and it is terribly clear, having tested the theory less than a minute ago, that he is going to stall and fall away before I do.

I have him. He must know that I have him.

I bring my nose up, he comes into my sights, and from less than 300 yards I trigger a long, merciless burst from my Brownings. Every fifth bullet or so is a tracer, leaving a thin trail of smoke, marking the path of the bullet stream. The tracers race upward and find him. The bullets chew at the wing root, the cockpit, the engine, making bright little flashes. I hose the Messerschmitt down the way you'd hose down a campfire, methodically, from one end to the other, not wanting to make a mistake here. The 109 shakes like a retriever coming out of the water, throwing off pieces. He slows, almost stops, as if parked in the sky, his propeller just windmilling, and he begins smoking heavily.

My momentum carries me to him. I throttle back to ease my plane alongside, just off his right wing. Have I killed him? I do not particularly want to fight this man again. I am coming up even with the cockpit, and although I figure the less I know about him the better, I find myself looking in spite of myself. There is smoke in the cockpit. I can see that, nothing more. Another few feet. . . .

And then he falls away suddenly, left wing down, right wing rising up, obscuring my view. I am looking at the 109's sky blue belly, the wheel wells, twin radiators, grease marks, streaks from the guns, the black crosses. I am close enough to make out the rivets. The Messerschmitt is right there and then it is gone, just like that, rolling away and dropping its nose and falling (flying?) almost straight down, leaking coolant and trailing flame and smoke so black and thick that it has to be oil smoke. It simply plunges, heading straight for the deck. No spin, not even a wobble, no parachute, and now I am wondering. His ship seems a death ship--but is it?

Undecided, I peel off and begin chasing him down. Did I squander a chance here? Have I let him escape? He is diving hard enough to be shedding his wings, harder than anyone designed those airplanes to dive, 500 miles an hour and more, and if 109s will stall sooner than Mustangs going straight up, now I am worrying that maybe their wings stay on longer. At 25,000 feet I begin to grow nervous. I pull back on the throttle, ease out of the dive, and watch him go down. I have no more stomach for this kind of thing, not right now, not with this guy. Enough. Let him go and to hell with him.

Straight down he plunges, from as high as 35,000 feet, through this beautiful, crystal clear May morning toward the green-on-green checkerboard fields, leaving a wake of black smoke. From four miles straight up I watch as the Messerschmitt and the shadow it makes on the ground rush toward one another . . .

. . . and then, finally, silently, merge.

Eddie Simpson joins up with me. Both wingmen, too. Simpson, my old wingman and friend, had gotten the one who'd climbed out. We'd bagged three of the four. We were very excited. It had been a good day.

I had lived and my opponent had died. But it was a near thing. It could have been the other way around just as easily, and what probably made the difference was the airplane I flew. Made in America. I would live to see the day when people would try to tell me the United States can't make cars like some other folks do. What a laugh.

I didn't wonder if I'd just made a new bride a widow, or if he might have had kids, any more than I would have wondered about a snake's mate and offspring. I may have given some thought to how many of my friends he had killed, or might have killed in the future, or how many bombers he might have shot down had he lived. But that's as far as it went. From what I could tell, he hadn't been overly concerned about me.

People ask about that all the time. People usually ask it hesitantly, as tactfully as they can, but they ask it. Did I wonder and worry about the mothers and children and wives of the men I shot down? Did I carry any guilt or regret?

No.

Not then, and not now.

Offline HoHun

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109's kill ratio (all variants from B to K)
« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2003, 12:40:04 PM »
Hi Nomak,

"The 109 was a better interceptor than the P-51."

The Me 109 had two attributes the P-51 lacked: Rapid climb and heavy cannon. That's why it was a better interceptor.

The P-51 had one attributes the Me 109 lacked: Long range. That's why it was a better long-range fighter.

I appreciate your enthusiam, but I'd like to encourage analytical thinking :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline GScholz

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109's kill ratio (all variants from B to K)
« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2003, 01:35:01 PM »
Bah, I love anectodal evidence, here's some more for you Nomak.

".... this was my first major dogfight I had in the war, in January 1945. I
was flying a P-51D and we were supposed to meet with bombers over Romania.
Well, the bombers never showed up! and we kept circling and wasting our
fuel. When we were low on fuel the squadron leader orders us back to base,
with the top group at 24,000 feet and the four bait Mustangs ordered to
15,000 feet. Now you might not really think about it, but the difference in
altitude, 9,000 feet, is almost two miles, and assuming that the top flight
could dive and rescue the 'bait' airplanes, it might take a full sixty
seconds or more for the top group to come to the rescue. A heck of alot can
happen in sixty seconds. Earlier, I requested to fly in the bait section
believing that I'd have a better chance to get some scores (at that time I
had no victories either) and this was my seventh mission. I have to say now
that I grew up in Kansas City, Kansas, and my older brother flew a Jenny
biplane in the late 1930s, so I learned the basics of flying even before
joining the Army. So we're all heading back to Italy when, all of a sudden,
a dozen or so Me109's bounce us. From one moment it's a clear blue sky, next
moment there are dozens' of tracers passing my cockpit. I'm hit several
times and I roll over to the right, and below me is an P-51, heading for the
deck, with an Me109 chasing him. I begin to chase the Me109. All this time I
believe there was another Me109 chasing me! It was a racetrack, all four of
us were racing for the finish line! Eventually I caught up with the first
Me109 and I fired a long burst at about 1,000 yards, to no effect. Then I
waited until about 600 yards, I fired two very long bursts, probably five
seconds each (P-51 has ammo for about 18 seconds of continuous bursts for
four machine guns, the remaining two machine guns will shoot for about 24
sec-onds). I noticed that part of his engine cowling flew off and he
immediately broke off his attack on the lead P-51. I check my rear view
mirrors and there's nothing behind me now; somehow, I have managed to lose
the Me109 following me, probably because the diving speed of the P-51 is
sixty mph faster than the Me109. So I pull up on the yoke and level out;
suddenly a Me109 loomes about as large as a barn door right in front of me!
And he fires his guns at me, and he rolls to the right, in a Lufberry
circle. I peel off, following this Me109. I can see silver P-51s and black
nosed camouflaged painted Me109s everywhere I look, there's Me109 or P-51
everywhere! At this time I cannot get on the transmitter and talk, everyone
else in the squadron is yelling and talking, and there's nothing but
yelling, screaming, and incoherent interference as everyone presses their
mike buttons at the same time. I can smell something in the cockpit.
Hydraulic fluid! I knew I got hit earlier.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline GScholz

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109's kill ratio (all variants from B to K)
« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2003, 01:35:43 PM »
.... I'm still following this Me109. I just got my first confirmed kill of
my tour, and now I'm really hot. I believe that I am the hottest pilot in
the USAAF! And now I'm thinking to myself: am I going to shoot this Me109
down too?! He rolls and we turn, and turn; somehow, I cannot catch up with
him in the Lufberry circle, we just keep circling. About the third 360
degree turn he and I must have spotted two Mustangs flying below us, about
2,000 feet below, and he dives for the two P-51s. Now I'm about 150 yards
from him, and I get my gunsight on his tail, but I cannot shoot, because if
I shoot wide, or my bullets pass through him, I might shoot down one or both
P-51s, so I get a front seat, watching, fearful that this guy will shoot
down a P-51 we're approaching at about 390 mph. There's so much interference
on the R/T I cannot warn the two Mustangs, I fire one very long burst of
about seven or eight seconds purposely wide, so it misses the Mustangs, and
the Me109 pilot can see the tracers. None of the Mustang pilots see the
tracers either! I was half hoping expecting that they'd see my tracers and
turn out of the way of the diving Me109. But no such luck. I quit firing.
The Me109 still dives, and as he approaches the two P-51s he holds his fire,
and as the gap closes, two hundred yards, one hundred yards, fifty yards the
Hun does not fire a shot. No tracers, nothing! At less than ten yards, it
looks like he's go-ing to ram the lead P-51 and the Hun fires one single
shot from his 20mm cannon! And Bang! Engine parts, white smoke, glycol,
whatnot from the lead P-51 is everywhere, and that unfortunate Mustang
begins a gentle roll to the right. I try to watch the Mustang down, but
cannot, Now my full at-tention is on the Hun! Zoom. We fly through the two
Mustangs (he was taken POW). Now the advantage of the P-51 is really
apparent, as in a dive I am catching up to the Me109 faster than a runaway
freight train. I press the trigger for only a second then I let up on the
trigger, I believe at that time I was about 250 yards distant, but the Hun
was really pulling lots' of negative and positive g's and pulling up to the
horizon, he levels out and then does a vertical tail stand! and next thing I
know, he's using his built up velocity from the dive to make a vertical
ninety degree climb. This guy is really an experienced pilot. I'm in a
vertical climb, and my P-51 begins to roll clockwise violently, only by
pushing my left rudder almost through the floor can I stop my P-51 from
turning. We climb for altitude; in the straight climb that Me109 begins to
out distance me, though my built up diving speed makes us about equal in the
climb. We climb one thousand fifteen hundred feet, and at eighteen hundred
feet, the hun levels his aircraft out. A vertical climb of 1,800 feet! I've
never heard of a piston aircraft climbing more than 1,000 feet in a tail
stand. At this time we're both down to stall speed, and he levels out. My
airspeed indicator reads less than 90 mph! So we level out. I'm really close
now to the Me109, less than twenty five yards! Now if I can get my guns on
him.........

At this range, the gunsight is more of nuisance than a help. Next thing, he
dumps his flaps fast and I begin to overshoot him! That's not what I want to
do, because then he can bear his guns on me. The P-51 has good armor, but
not good enough to stop 20mm cannon hits. This Luftwaffe pilot must be one
heck of a marksman, I just witnessed him shooting down a P-51 with a single
20mm cannon shot! So I do the same thing, I dump my flaps, and as I start to
overshoot him, I pull my nose up, this really slows me down; S-T-A-L-L
warning comes on! and I can't see anything ahead of me nor in the rear view
mirror. Now I'm sweating everywhere. My eyes are burning because salty sweat
keeps blinding me: 'Where is He!?!' I shout to myself. I level out to
prevent from stalling. And there he is. Flying on my right side. We are
flying side to side, less than twenty feet separates our wingtips. He's
smiling and laughing at himself. I notice that he has a black heart painted
on his aircraft, just below the cockpit. The propeller nose and spinner are
also painted black. It's my guess that he's a very experienced ace from the
Russian front. His tail has a number painted on it: "200". I wonder: what
the "two hundred" means!? Now I began to examine his airplane for any bullet
hits, afterall, I estimate that I just fired 1,600 rounds at the hun. I
cannot see a single bullet hole in his aircraft! I could swear that I must
have gotten at least a dozen hits! I keep inspecting his aircraft for any
damage. One time, he even lifts his left wing about 15 degrees, to let me
see the undercar-riage, still no hits! That's impossible I tell myself.
Totally impossible. Then I turn my attention back to the "200" which is
painted on the tail rudder. German aces normally paint a marker for each
victory on their tail. It dawns on me that quick: TWO HUNDRED KILLS !! We
fly side by side for five minutes. Those five minutes take centuries to
pass. Less than twenty five feet away from me is a Luftwaffe ace, with over
two hundred kills. We had been in a slow gradual dive now, and my altitude
indicates 8,000 feet. I'm panicking now, even my socks are soaked in sweat.
The German pilot points at his tail, obviously meaning the "200" victories,
and then very slowly and dramatically makes a knife-cutting motion across
his throat, and points at me. He's telling me in sign language that I'm
going to be his 201 kill! Panic! I'm breathing so hard, it sounds like a
wind tunnel with my mask on. My heart rate must have doubled to 170 beats
per minute; I can feel my chest, thump-thump and so. This goes on for
centuries, and centuries. The two of us flying at stall speed, wingtip to
wingtip. I think more than once of simply ramming him. He keeps watching my
ailerons, maybe that's what he expects me to do. We had heard of desperate
pilots who, after running out of ammunition, would commit suicide by ramming
an enemy plane. Then I decide that I can Immelmann out of the situation, as
I began to climb, but because my flaps are down, my Mustang only climbs
about one hundred feet, pitches over violently to the right and stalls. The
next instant I'm dangerously spinning, heading ninety degrees vertically
down! And the IAS reads 300 mph! My P-51 just falls like a rock to the
earth! I hold the yoke in the lower left corner and sit on the left rudder,
flaps up, and apply FULL POWER! I pull out of the dive at about 500 feet,
level out, (I began to black out so with my left hand I pinched my veins in
my neck to stop from losing blood). I scan the sky for anything! There's not
a plane in the sky, I dive to about fifty feet elevation, heading towards
Italy. I fly at maximum power for about ten minutes, and then reduce my rpm
(to save gasoline), otherwise the P-51 has very limited range at full power.
I fly like this for maybe an hour, no planes in the vicinity; all the time I
scan the sky, check my rear view mirrors.

I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with
the black heart and "200" written on the tail. That's when the whole room, I
mean everybody, gets instantly quiet. Like you could hear a pin drop. Two
weeks later the base commander shows me a telex: "....according to
intelligence, the German pilot with a black heart is Eric Hartmann who has
downed 250 aircraft and there is a reward of fifty thousand dollars offered
by Stalin for shooting him down. I never heard of a cash reward for shooting
down an enemy ace ... "

-Lawrence Thompson

Eric Hartmann, called "the Blond Knight of Germany", survived the war with
352 victories


Don't you just love it when aces meet up with green pilots? Both our stories is about superior pilots, but not superior planes.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Nomak

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109's kill ratio (all variants from B to K)
« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2003, 03:52:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Nomak,

"The 109 was a better interceptor than the P-51."

The Me 109 had two attributes the P-51 lacked: Rapid climb and heavy cannon. That's why it was a better interceptor.

The P-51 had one attributes the Me 109 lacked: Long range. That's why it was a better long-range fighter.

I appreciate your enthusiam, but I'd like to encourage analytical thinking :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


Better climb rate doesnt always mean better zoom to altitude at speed.  Notice how Buds 51 out zoomed the 109.  The 109s climb rate didnt help it on that day.  Buds Mustang out climbed that 109.  Not a steady climb to altitude but a zoom in combat while at speed.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2003, 04:37:43 PM by Nomak »

Offline HoHun

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109's kill ratio (all variants from B to K)
« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2003, 04:15:00 PM »
Hi Nomak,

>Notice how Buds 51 out zoomed the 109.

Notice how Anderson held both an energy and an angles advantage when the fight became a one versus one.

It seems I have to explain it again: The Me 109's superior climb rate is relevant for Scholz' statement because it makes the Me 109 a superior interceptor. An interceptor's duty is to climb rapidly, intercept enemy aircraft, and shoot them down quickly.

No good rate of climb, no good interceptor.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Nomak

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« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2003, 04:44:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
.

Utter nonsense (or you greatly overstimate the Me 109's level speed :-) The Me 109 could dive to Mach 0.79, about the same as the Fw 190 and the P-51, and considerably better than the P-47 and the P-38.

Henning (HoHun)


>---posted by  gscholz--->

 Now the advantage of the P-51 is really
apparent, as in a dive I am catching up to the Me109 faster than a runaway freight train.


Hmmmm...perhaps a contridiction there?

Your own story shows that the "109 can dive with a 51" is total garbage.
  :rofl
« Last Edit: November 03, 2003, 04:48:57 PM by Nomak »

Offline Nomak

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« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2003, 04:52:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun


No good rate of climb, no good interceptor.

(HoHun)


Are you claiming the Mustang had a poor rate of climb?

The ability of an aircraft to reach altitude quickly is certianly improtant.  However, a fast climb does not a superior intercepter make.  That is only one aspect of an intercepters job.

Offline Nomak

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« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2003, 04:54:01 PM »
By the way gscholz that is a great story.  I have come across it before.  Thx for posting it ;)

Offline Nomak

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109's kill ratio (all variants from B to K)
« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2003, 05:03:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Nomak,

The Me 109 had two attributes the P-51 lacked: Rapid climb and heavy cannon. That's why it was a better interceptor.

Henning (HoHun)


From what I have read about ariel gunnery and aircraft firearms, the most important thing to bringing down another aircraft is the amount of lead that can be put on target.

Can a 30mm cannon put more led on target faster than 6x50 caliber brownings?  I doubt it.  Even if it could the brownings had FAR better ballistics and far greater ammo load that that tater shooter.  So a Mustang could be putting lead on target while the 109 was still trying to get close enough for the shot.

The 109 series sufferd from a lack of firepower its entire service career.  If it didnt why in the world were they mounting gun pods under the wings that dramiticly affected the speed and handling of the aircraft?